Anglican

Would also like to thank Posi for posting. It means a lot (to me anyway) to know someone is looking.

I now have an accolade that gives 10% health (high pain). I have the PPP armor. I can say neither of these seem to really do much for the dom AT (both will help in PVP, but nothing major). I can say mez protection/resistance will certainly help with solo survival.

However, on a team, doms dont contribute as much as they should. Some ideas I had this weekend (so they may suck):

1) Can AOE hold recharge times be reduced some? Having glacier up for each spawn (not perma) would make doms better for a team. I may be wrong (havent been playing my defender) but seems like fearsome stare is up a lot more than glacier. Seems like the recharge is based on level 50 trollers with 3 recharges in the AOE hold and hasten, with the fear that with 3 hold durations (unrealistic slotting, as acc is required for it to work well) would make it perma or close to it. As it stands, I havent even taken and dont plan to take the AOE hold on my fire/fire dom, as its rarely up when needed and I dont have powerboost on that toon.

2) Can significant side effects be added to holds? The idea is, these effect do nothing when they are held, but make throwing a hold a good idea when they cant overcome a high mag (like AV with triangles going or players under BFs/unyielding, etc). Note the word significant, because as the hold isnt working, this would be the main use of the hold power against AVs and for PVP. I am thinking -acc, -damage (maybe even -regen?) or some thing like that. Note that this would mean nothing in a fight where the hold worked, as they would be held and couldnt attack.


Some points:

1. Controller damage is real good in PVE, and awesome in PVP (when they get a hold, they do have the same BF issue). Most people upset with doms are partially so due to having played a controller, and expecting MORE damage, but getting LESS in actual game play.

2. People dont value control, they value keeping the team going. The difference is that fearsome stare isnt as strong control as glacier, but if it allows the team to wipe the spawn and keep going, then fearsome stare is as good as glacier, only with a lower recharge time. Now, ice slick/seeds of confusion is as good as fearstare, but an AOE sleep isnt as good (flashfreeze). And note that I am saying "as good as", meaning the corruptor brings much more (healing, debuffs, etc) while this is all the dominator brings (and the corrutor can do more damage as well, if thats what is needed instead of control/debuff).

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So where are the devs on this.

States in beta said he would be keeping a close eye on Dom's after all the Dom's are too weak calls.

Then they said in I7 they were still looking and here we are a month later and nothing said.

So where are the devs in all this, it seems like they really dont care much. Its like dom's dont have enough players to be worth spending time on.

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Ok, thought of this, its half way a joke, half way something that seems to grate on me.

I think the devs are too busy worrying over AV fights being too easy to worry about doms being good on teams, or up to par with other ATs.

To me, to fix Doms, it doesnt really have to involve changing doms at all.

1) Change AV triangles to suppression (per Mal's suggestion)

2) Change acrobatics to being mez resistance, not mag increase. Makes holds last 1/4 of time (click instead of toggle), and make break frees only take you out of one current hold, no lasting effect at all. Add stun immunity to a different power (aid self, or make aid other have long duration stun resistance, or maybe add stun resistance to manuvers to make it worth taking).

3) Make controller and dom control factor the same (1.0 for doms, 1.25 for controllers currently). I dont understand why defenders and MMs have as good a control factor as dominators do. Bring trollers down or doms up, either way.

As for other suggestions, I dont see double damage on AVs as balanced, or fair to other ATs. I have 10% extra health on my dom due to accolade, it makes no net difference (though Im sure it better). The 5-7% I7 damage increase makes little difference on my */nrg dom, and as he does a lot of melee, I dont see a similar boost to range damage making doms that great.

Doms should be about applying holds and controls on team, with some damage thrown in. I believe the above 3 changes would let our primary function, not be overpowered, and allow us to be more of a contribution to teams vs AVs and in PVP.

I do think there are some issues with fearsome stare being too effective (few resist fear, seems like decent duration and recharge) and wonder why a non-dom COV ATs can get so many holds/control type powers, but thats not a huge deal to me until I really see one able to out control me.

Doms are fun, and well balanced IMO. However, AT creep has allowed */dark powersets (mainly on the power of fearsome stare and pet gaze) and Ice/* (freeze rays) to approximate decent control. Its not nearly as good control as doms, but its enough to get by (which is often all thats needed).

Combine this with lower damage, and the fact that we dont normally have AOEs that stack the way debuffs and buffs do, and we are less attractive to teams, especially ones for extreme challenges such as the Lord Recluse SF.

I think its the case that the Dom AT can solo well (or mine always could), and do decent on teams. However, they dont compare well to a controller due to the damage given to trollers to let them solo easier. So, doms dont look that good when compared to some ATs that somewhat compare to them. What no one mentions is maybe the other ATs are really the ones with the problems.

Still, I see two issues the devs should have already dealt with and havent. What do doms do when fighting EB/AVs with triangles (what do they bring to the team), and how do they compete in PVP with breakfrees so easy to obtain and use.

I have the 10% health accolade now, and it hasnt changed squat for me. If 10% boost to health doesnt really make the play change, then you have to wonder how the devs could make anyone happy. To me, it comes back to letting my powers work.

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MoG is great in pvp...I dont see why ever dislikes it...can be great if your a not a [censored]

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What's with this "It's good in PvP so don't change it" mentality? Should we just have the devs mark such powers so we know in advance not to take it if we don't care about PvP (like the majority of players)? Just because someone has fun with it in PvP (and I find it hard to believe that they have), doesn't mean the power is "useful" in PvE terms. No powers should be specifally geared towards PvP, IMO. If you like PvP, I'm not knockin' on you, I just don't think you need to think it's the "end all, be all" of the game, and that it doesn't matter how the power works in PvE. I won't be doing the same with PvE. Powers need to be useful in both arenas.

But seriously, if 90% of people who post about MoG think its sucks, then perhaps we're onto something here, and it's really not a bunch of people pissin' and moanin'. I have yet to hear someone who likes the power describe "how to use it". I just hear them say "if you knew how". Which makes me wonder. Maybe I've missed some posts, I'm sure, but the popular voice sure makes a better argument here.

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I think PVP can be a balancer, as in ice tanks and stalkers being so good in pvp it somewhat makes up for their issues in PVE, but a power/AT should be at least ok in both arenas (IMO).

As for MOG, seems like the defense is too easy to overcome for it to keep you low on health. I notice that AVs with defense boosts (ie Mako) still regen while being hard to hit. I say, just add a big crash at the end like unstop has, so its a last ditch effort where you have to run if you havent won when its about to crash.

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I have one incidental concern, though. As if Kinetics and Radiation weren't unofficially considered the "best" support sets before, this just makes it even worse. "We ned healr" is slowly going away, but it seems like it's just being replaced with "we ned rad".

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Ain't it the truth. I have a /rad corr, and I have to hide from my own VG if I want to be able to play any other toon

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Its the regen on AVs making that happen, not double domination. If you cant beat something without those particular powers, or it changes a 3 hour mission to 20 minutes, that makes you required. "Doing fine, but a little faster" is nice, but doesnt make people search you out as much as being the only practical way to finish a mission.

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Don't worry, the devs don't read this board

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I wouldn't say that.

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I have to add that this kind of pisses me off too. I don't know how long or in how many threads we have wished/demanded/asked for/requested/begged for dev comment on this AT, what it is supposed to do, what they think it needs to be more competitive in both PvE and PvP, etc....and this is the kind of dev comments we get.

This and the locking of threads because we get angry with each other because we are constantly left to speculate what the devs are thinking about our beloved AT.


Come on Posi, give us a little more feedback on our AT. I assume you aren't on some kind of word credits and can spare more than 4 for this little segment of your player base.

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I doubt we will get any feedback on something that specific unless its already been decided on what they are going to do. As over-analyzed as every comment is on the boards, any statement made would be blown out of proportion.

If a dev is reading one post, it means there are decent odds they are reading other posts (though Im sure not all of them).

This makes the doms issues post by Lili that much more important, as they would be more inclined to read that then "Doms suck, my <insert AT> is better" posts we sometimes get. Even if true, I doubt it would inspire a dev to read it (though I hope they would).

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You mean that the only time a dev has ever posted on this forum is to point out a likely impending nerf rather than addressing any of the hordes of problems that we talk about on a daily basis?

Nope... Irony? What's that?

::wanders off in a bemused daze::

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Actually, I was kinda thinking about the irony of everyone always saying how devs never post or read the dom boards and how they would be happy if one just posted occasionally, and now that one does, its all doom and gloom.

Cant have it both ways.

Of course, I wish it was a post on how the devs agree that Mako in the Calystix/font/mako mission was crazy with his overload or whatever (5th time trying failed again ) and will be fixed, but cant have everything.

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damage is a dom's secondary, i think it's in a decent spot now, but could see a bit of a buff

but i'd like control to be considerably stronger, since its our damn primary

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First quote in a while that I agreed with from Geo.

I think the problem is holds are too good, so they have to be stopped so teams get to fight (and have some challenge). So, purple triangles on AVs, BFs in PVP come along. Now, slow +-fly-jump and -recharge is much better than a hold, because those cant be easily countered. Add in -damage and - resistance, and you have some great abilities for the corruptor, while having nuked dom powers.

As we dont get the holy trifecta that controllers get (control, buff/debuff, AND damage), and control got nuked (I4 or so), the primary doesnt do as well as it should. How to fix it? I say, make holds that are resisted (via BF or triangles or mag) have massive debuffs (slows, -fly, -jump, -resist, -damage, -acc).

In fact, its pathetic that in PVP an immob or slow is MUCH better than a hold, which is balanced as being more powerful.

Further, if you added slow, -fly, -jump, -acc and - damage to a hold, you wouldnt change PVE at all, because mobs would be HELD, and wouldnt be moving or attacking anyway.

If you dont want holds to work completely, ok, I understand its not fun fighting statues. BUT, at least make the power do SOMETHING, and ideally it should be better then the pitiful weak control powers (like caltrops, or web gernade, etc.).

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I'll put a consolidated answer here, and this is @Anglican and others, too:

First, we'll establish what is known:

1) Doms are not that great at PvP.
2) Ice Blasters and Controllers ARE (however, it is known they are not "walking gods" like BS/Regen and other power builds, and do not always do well against said build).
3) This is due to Mez (Hold, stun, whadevuh) + damage follow up to the mezzed target.
4) This works because a Mag protected target can still have that mag outdone, and even a split second of this drops ALL toggles.
5) Dropping all a toon's toggles drops the majority / all of that toon's resistances.


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Please recognize that #3 is true also for nrg melee using stuns. In fact, nrg blasters and EM tanks are much better at it than ice blasters or controllers. Controllers often are nothing more than a base for their defender powers, as they have the same BF issues to apply to them as doms, only they have things like hurricane to fall back on. In fact, this disadvantage is ALREADY overcome via the blasters using aim + build up, and tanks using FA, tactics and build up.

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Now, let's look at what this does with the way things currently work:
People can still pop the old BF and other stuff...but they darn well do it BEFORE they are actually held (and you would be amazed at the number of people who don't, can't, or otherwise don't realize). SR, specifically is the set causing trouble, since it's doing what it's supposed to: protecting the user from one person mezzing through its defenses and protections...and giving ample time to pop a BF if said hero/villain believes they are in danger of having that protection overcome. Most control sets (Controller/Dom) have two holds: target and AoE. The combined application is Mag 6, and is easily reapplied within their own duration = Mag 12.


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AOE holds take forever to recharge, and are one use/fight at best. This means you easily hit mag 6 by using two powers, then 9 when the single target hold recharges, and then yet another recharge to hit 12. Further, these must stack, meaning a single miss equates to no hold at all.

To compare, how many attacks does it take to kill a dom? Im thinking it rarely takes more than 4 to kill a dom, and 2 isnt uncommon. So, a dom has to hit 3-4 times in a row, in order to try to be able to attack without dying. He then must hit maybe 8-10 attacks to win. Meanwhile, if the opponent has hit 3-4 times, the match is already over.

As for SR doing what its supposed to do, whats the mez protection power supposed to be doing? With NO DEFENSE AT ALL, they can wait for the single target hold to be thrown twice and THEN use a BF and STILL be IMMUNE. Only now, I dont know that a SR scrapper even needs to carry BFs, while all other ATs do (even doms and trollers, because of the massive number of holds, stuns, fears that melee toons can cast).

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If this becomes an untyped attack, then people who can do this (as well as the non-usual AT who can pull it off) will NOT have to contend with Defense....barring certain, specific situations. Not ALL sets have Mez protection, and also have varying levels. Also, not all sets have defense...and then to varying degrees. So to handle SR, we'll do an across the board buff/nerf which allows holds to be applied enough for Doms to succeed....and make at least Controllers and certain other builds that much more powerful as well, able to hold a target: period, barring perfect BFs and timing of their use. This is in addition to making Doms literal gods among PvP...we already know how much people don't like gods in PvP, but want balanced fights. Especially since that's what you CLAIM to want, anyway. So: we can go with what is OBVIOUSLY a bad idea, or we can work with something else.


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So, removing a blaster's 3% defense from weave makes a dom a GOD? Wow, I never knew we were so close.

Who currently has decent defense? Only a few ATs, SR being the main one, but also some tanks. Why should they have virtually immunity to holds, while resistance based melee toons have to worry about it (assuming waiting for a power to recharge and be thrown 3-4 times which needs a single inspiration to completely overcome and which can be taken AFTER the hold works is something to worry about).

Clearly, this makes no sense at all and is hyperbole.

Blasters, controllers, defenders are all vulnerbale to holds on the first cast, unless they have a special epic power (IW for example). Acrobatics does not protect from a dom or controllers holds. As insights dont make doms GODS now, I dont see reducing the benefit from defense to holds as making everyone quake in fear from a controller or a dom.
What it WILL do is give a dom or controller a fighting chance to overcome mag resistance of a defense based melee toon if they can survive for 10-15 seconds of combat (not likely, but at least possible).

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Just a few examples, off the top of my head, that while certainly not perfect, are definitely better and more able to be worked/tweaked:
1) Buff Dom (specifically, Dom, since this prevents it from affecting other, balanced [or already unbalanced] ATs/powercombos) accuracy or tohit specifically against players as their Domination Bar builds, reaching a cap when it is full/active.


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So, instead of bypassing an SR defense (but they have increased mag), instead ALL doms get a massive accuracy bonus? This is more balanced? Im just talking about removing an unneccesary unreasonable advantage that defense based melee toons have to be immune to holds. You are adding in a large accuracy bonus that would have to put Dom accuracy around 80% to other ATs in PVP such that doms can hit SR scrappers 50% of the time. This seems much less balanced to me.

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2) Introduce a mechanic that makes it so that a toon that is under a hold, sleep, or stun (Disorient) lose a certain effectiveness to their other powers, scaling so that it is proportional somehow to remaining protection (slippery slope effect...still overcomeable by enough protection [read: BFs] but a definite danger).


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I would love to have holds do something like this, but it still doesnt change how an SR scrapper will be missed and unaffected while a fire tank will be hit and affected. The tank has higher mag protection, but is actually weaker to a hold due to being able to be hit. The same is true for a regen scrapper. Why should a regen resist holds worse than a SR scrapper? Again, the basic item here is that a regen scrapper has a certain mag resistance that must be overcome to be affected. An SR scrapper has the same mag level, but also cant be hit, making him virtually immune to mez while the regen is merely extremely hard to affect.


Once again, this effect does much more to potentially unbalance ATs than my idea. This weakens every type of mez protection in the game, while my idea simply made all scrappers equal, and all scrappers weaker than all tanks.

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3) Give Dom holds (and other mez, but specifically Dom) a "lingering aura"...the effect wears off normally, but undercuts mez protection by a very small amount for an additional duration after it has actually worn off (so for 0-100, the hold is full effect, and then for 101-200, the effect undercuts mez protection by 1 Mag (or even only a 1/2 Mag level)). Enough lingering aura wouldn't do anything by itself...but would allow the application of an actual mez of the same type to do its thing.


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Ok, so you are extending the base duration for a hold to overcome resistance and allow the hold. Again, this is much more powerful than what I suggested. Im thinking you didnt understand what I was suggesting at all.

My understanding is that all scrappers have a toggle that raises the magnitude required for them to be held to a set level (say, from 3 for normal heros to 9). In addition, a defense based melee type gets their defense, such that the holds cant hit, as well as having basically zero effect until three or more have stacked. This means the odds of a defense based toon being held is much, much, much lower than a comparable scrapper (say, SR versus regen).

To review the effect on non-melee type toons, how much defense can most toons get? 3 % for stealth (when fighting suppressed to 50%?). Weave is around 3% for non-melee toons. Defenders and such tend to get ~3% from buff powers (manuvers, shadowfall, etc). Its unlikely a non-melee toon has as much as 10% defense. With a base 50% to hit in PVP, with 2 acc inspirations and assuming no inspiration use, thats about a 16% difference. Frankly, that hardly makes one "a literal god" or requires PERFECT BF usage. In fact, you could wait until held, then open your inspiration tray, look around, take a bite of a sandwich, and then trigger the BF and easily escape from most doms in PVP. Our burst damage is nowhere near killing even a squishy in three or four hits, though fire may do it with the imps included and if running HF and FE.

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That's just three, and took all of 5 seconds to think up. Oh, and:
4) Increase Dominator TD chances across the board. Other classes are fairly balanced without high TD chances: Doms obviously are not. An increased TD for Doms (not massive, but a step-up process every so often until the "right nubmer" is found) would allow this and give them a niche function that suits their playstyle, is thematic to them, and is synergetic with what they do.


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This is what the devs are doing. Frankly, I dislike toggle dropping. I dont mind having to overcome a resistance, as long as I have a means to do so (ie, melee without ranged attacks being the only ones with mez protection, etc). I dont want to drop someones power with some bogus mechanism. I just want a decent chance to have my method of winning (ie. hit them many times with a ST hold and hold them) actually work. As it is, with a defense based toon, doms dont have any possible way to do it. I have had people sit there and laugh at me spamming holds on them, and without them using BFs. Is it right? Balanced? Its not balanced for team play, solo play, interAT or intra-AT.

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My argument is NOT to keep Holds or Dominators useless, or make mezzes trivial: it is that you need to do so with a balanced thing, not by a board sweep effect or in some way that tips the scales the other way and just causes nerfs, bad blood, and a whole ocean-full of problems all its own. Now is this really so hard to understand, or do you REALLY need to touch our collective hands to the red-hot fire and get burned first?

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Really, I dont think this would cause cats and dogs to start living together, although you clearly think otherwise. If this would be as huge a change as you suggest, all I would need to do as a dom to be a "literal god" of PVP is use insight inspirations. Maybe you should lay off the coffee.

Are there other possible fixes? Sure. One of the best ones is to make holds with too low a mag to effect someone have a strong -recharge, slow effect, or a large acc penalty. Or, keeping with toggle dropping (though I dislike it), give holds a high chance of dropping a toggle. That would almost work like a "critical" hold in that it might drop the toggle that gives mez protection.

However, all these require to hits to work. So in each of these, for some reason a defense based toon is >>>> resistance based toon. I dont think this makes sense, or is intended by the devs.

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I am not sure how they can fix that though, becuase the damage is not just based on the power, but on the AT modifier for ranged or melee. I guess it would require someone manually changing the tex for each and every power, which if it is going to take them off of some progress on i7, then I would be against. Besides, what does Superior mean anyways in regards to damage?

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For a dom about 40 points of damage? Hehehehhe, sorry, couldnt resist it.

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I think stack holds need to create reduced effectiveness for toggles eventually leading to the knocking off of the toggles.

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I think stacked holds are better than fine right now. They really need to be toned down. The only ones that have a slight resistance to it are scrappers, tanks, and brutes. On anything other than those 3, status effects rip apart any means of escaping or defense.

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Which is why they gave you BFs, which is why Doms truly suck in PVP. Give me a inspiration with 100% boost to resistance which I can buy for piddle, and see how a blaster adds up. BFs have nuked holds. The only ones effectively using status effects now are blasters, EM based toons, that only need two hits to win, and they use the stun to keep you there till they can trigger the second attack. That is faster than you can hit a BF, so it works (only needs a 2 second duration or less to work).

Holds dont work now in PVP at all. They are either auto win or buttons that can be removed from the power tray for all the effect they have. Both sides of that are wrong. At least in COH, most ATs can get mez protection. Doms dont have mez protection, and their primary dont work.

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As long as (most) mezzes are a binary proposition (held/not held) the AT's that have them will suffer with either near-godlike power when it works or massive ineffectiveness when it doesn't, and the AT's that have the ability to resist them must have a high chance to do so, or they're dead.

SR is only doing its job when it evades an attack. It doesn't matter what that attack is. However, removing mez resistance from them when they do get hit is yet another death sentence... why? Because when it hits, all toggles drop. Those toggles drop and they're dead. Period.

The ability to mez is a powerful thing because it renders whoever is hit by it (in almost every PvP situation, and many PvE situation) dead unless they have a team that can readily help them- after that the only other details are a matter of damage and time.

The best soloution I keep coming back to time and again, is a little "give and take" with how mez's work currently.

1) Reduce the ammount of magnitude (or whatever) that overcomes armors against mez. However, as a trade, most mezzes won't drop toggles. Power activation is an act of will, and as long as you're conscious, you can will your powers to work. This will not only help the AT's with no protection, but some toggles, it might allow the melee AT's that do have such protection the breathing room needed so they can be mezzed without it being an automatic death sentence.

2) A useful side effect if they get hit but not mezzed. Give all mezzes a slottable attribute that kicks in. Pick something appropriate to the power... -acc, -spd, -def, -resist, etc... If that steps on the Defender's toes too much, then make it a blanket - spd on immob's, and a -spd -recharge on all full holds. This means that they're still functional, but they did get hit and it slowed them down a bit. If this is done with all mez type powers then suggestion 1 may not even be nescesary.

3)Make at least one "target area" AoE immob and/or hold in every set, as opposed to a "target" AoE. If that doesn't fit the flavor of a particular set, make one an "anchor" AoE toggle power. That will allow multiple chances to mez, slow or whatever, foes as long as they're in its area, and it is active. Take Snowstorm for example. Its an "anchor" AoE toggled slow. Powers like that are almost more useful than mezzes in PvP because they work reliably. Controllers and Dominators should have something in their Primary that can be as reliable, without completely decimating the competition. Though in my opinion, a speed and/or recharge debuff is like a hold/immob that just didn't take fully... so I'm biased.

Control-type powers ultimately get the short end of the stick because when they work, they really work. The above may be a few steps toward making them a little less binary.

Hope this helps

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I agree with most of this. I feel that tanks and scrappers (tough, melee types) should be affected by mezzes. But, when mezzed, should have real good odds of surviving it. So, it should come down to which PLAYER (not AT) is better when they have the upper hand (ie. can the tank kill the dom/troller when suppression is on, versus can the dom/troller stay alive until the hold strikes after suppression ends). I know this would cause some PVE problems, but really I think tanks should get mezzed but live, while squishies should have ways of avoiding mez (cause they die when mezzed). This would mean (for example) an invul tanks passives would give them the majority of their damage resistance, and a toggle drop would not do that much to them, other than no attacking and no movement.

BTW- my thought was NOT to remove mez protection, rather have ST holds not be classified as a type of damage or postion for defense. The mag protection is what is supposed to protect that AT from mezzes, not their defense, but right now they are double protected.

This is similar to the idea that holds dont drop toggles as listed in your post, only using existing powers to do that. I also think more, larger effects of holds that dont break the mag of a target would help a lot. If they are going to nuke holds, at least let it do something good (idea #2 of your post). And lets be real, BFs as they are nuke holds.

Another idea, is to remove the mag protection, and use resistance. Resistance reduces the duration of the hold. A tank with reduced hold times and his high health plus suppression will not likely lose to a dom, unless the dom is a better player (which is proper).

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-_-....why do I bother? My point is, fixing this for Doms, breaks this for Controllers (and Ice Blasters, and...).

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I guess my question, is how does this break it for controllers? Ok, their mez hits defense based toons with mez protection. You still have BFs, you still have high mag ratings, you still have suppression, etc. As for blasters (and epic powers, as they have mez powers in all ATs, while we get ZERO mez protection), their duration is so low and lower mag to a point it would take more than one blaster to break mez protection, I believe (never fought a ice blaster without toggle drop on my tank, so not certain). Again, I fail to see the broken part of this at all.


Further, all the other ATs were given complete and total protection from Mezes by the introduction of BFs the way they are now. Controllers were compensated by being given 3 tmies their normal damage when mez works. Doms were given, oh, wait, Jack (and I dont mean Frost either).

In other words, I hear your concern, but theres no detail in HOW ITS BROKE!! Versus all but psi, you have DOUBLE PROTECTION from mezzes. In other words, its harder to break a defense build mez protection on a scrapper than to break a resistance build mez protection on a tank. This is because you have to hit first, then the mag of the hold is increased. Balanced? Nope.

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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...

The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}

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Well, you can think the 500,000 other people with angel type names for my name. It was about the last attempt to name my concept toon (an angel fighting evil on Earth) before giving up on it. Anglican was a mis-spelling of Angelican, but it worked so here I am.

Anyway, right now, you have SR scrappers, Ice tanks are the main ones affected. Then, there are some others with lessar dependance on defense.

The point is, should an AT have to both hit a very high defense, and ALSO have that power not work? Thats the way holds work right now. Not only can you not hit them, but you would have to hit 3 or 4 times for it to do anything, and even then, it would only work IF they didnt have a 50 influ inspiration. Further, they dont have to burn the BF until they are held. So, they dont even burn through their inspirations very fast, as the odds of hitting a high defense 3 straight times is pretty low (1 in 20, to the third power?).

It just seems to me to be like giving an SR scrapper ~50% resistance on top of his defense, or giving a tank 90% resistance AND 50% defense. Its double covered, and equals total immunity.

On the other hand, if this was changed then PVE mobs would.......well, still be unable to break the protection and still not hold the scrapper/tanks/brutes through their mez protection.

I dont like powers that dont work. Holds dont work for doms in PVP. This is one reason why. BFs are the other reason, and really need some type of change to allow a doms main power to actually do something. Its one reason I didnt liek toggle dropping, because I think a tanks toggles should work, but there has to be a way around them (unresistable damage from blasters, AS, etc).

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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...

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-_-...

Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.

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This would only affect stalkers, brutes, scrappers and tanks. As an invul tank, I have had PVE mobs taken down unyielding once ever (from level 12 to 50). It wasnt due to defense, it was having a mag 12 or so to holds. Same for scrappers, they have mag resistance already. Further, everyone has the instant "no holds" pill for a mere 50 infamy/influence.

Basically, these type ATs are double dipping. They cant be mezzed because they cant be hit, plus they have mez protection. It should be one or the other, not both. If I have to hit you 4 times for it to work, is it fair for me to also only hit you with that attack 1 out of 20 attempts (5%)? This makes it not just really tough to break, it is now impossible.
If that is the desired result, why not just make the AT immune and be done. I think this is something the devs have just not considered.

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Some stuff I learned from Archon_Voss:

The number of boss NPCs in Recluse's Victory will be lowered from its current level to about one third of the total NPCs, to make the 'defeat 100 enemies to reset zone' task easier for the losing side. (This will also mean that Insp drops are easier to get in RV, since you won't have to wade through bosses to get them.)

There may also be a set Prestige/Infamy award added to this task for the losing side, to give them a bit more incentive to turn the clock around quicker.

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Guess I should have listened to the into speech, didnt know thats what reverts the zone. I can say, there are a boatload of bosses in the zone on RV. At one point during the event, you could ignore the players because they were much less of a threat then the wardens and heros.

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WRT: School of Sharks...

And this thing with "having to be near the ground" is total BS. When NPCs are being hit with School of Sharks and they fall or jump off a ledge, the animation has no problems following them mid air. If they're flying near the ground and are in the SoS and they get knocked off a ledge, the SoS encircles them while they're suspened in mid air. There is certainly no animation or 'looks' reason for this to be a grounded power. These are spirit sharks, not real sharks, there is not in-game RPG reason for it to be a ground based power. It's not like it's just the top fin and it looks bad if it's not on the ground. It looks great on the ground or in the air.

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I dont know why, but most dominator AOE soft controls (flashfire, flash freeze, others) are all limited to ground only. To me, its one more crappy limitation to a power that has been hosed on duration already (when only trollers had it).

On a side note - my dominator soloed the ballista!! bruahahahahha!! Sorry, gloating moment over (this is simply a knee jerk reaction to doms suck posts, please ignore).

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I don't know but the more I think about these Patron powers, the imbalances in the Dominator sets that are not being looked at because they are not exploits. I simply get more and more frustrated. I dont plan on selecting a patron till issue 8 or so. Maybe they will either add more patrons or revise the powers. the only difference I see between them all is do I want to take a power with resistance to energy or -energy.... hmmmm.

I will admit though all this test is only for bugs not for design. I can get pissed and quit but that wont make them undo the design at this point. The arguement that patron powers are not what we want or can use is already sailed.

Sad really, I had such big hopes for the Patrons too. Here I am deciding on a Power Pool that I could take from lvl 6 to fill in the 44-49 powers since I cant see using another attack that will only serve to get me killed.

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I mostly agree. I do want the armor, and Mako has the water spout thing, but all in all the recharges are too long to care much for these powers (not to mention the power selection).

All in all, for PVP, I see the 40-50 region letting me have aid self, acrobatics, stamina and the presence pool for fear type controls.

The problems I see in PVP:

problem - solution
TP foe - increase animation so caster cant do anything when foe appears.

NRG melee too strong - something as damaging as energy transfer should not stun also. Reduce the damage or eliminate the stun.

Jousting still works - jousting (ie superspeed by with an attack que'd up) still works and sucks. Nuke suppression and add back heavy acc penalties.

Too many tough NPCs - at one I point, I broadcasted "to heck with the heros, worry about the wardens". Too many high level tough mobs in PVE in RV. Worst are the heros/Avs. They are way too strong unless a massive group is in PVP to fight them.

Turrents too slow - a squishy in a turrent is a dead man. A blaster can joust in and kill you and not take a single attack from the turrents as far as I can tell.

Spines scrappers range damage is too good - compared to a dom, they do more damage at range, as well as having mez protection and high health and high defense/resistance.

BFs nuke controls - change BFs to resistance which reduces effect time, not get out free like now.

Controls miss defense toons - not only do they get mez protection, but they cant be hit to overcome it. Mez attacks should not get attack type defenses (like le/sm, fire/ etc).

Severl things to post:

1: PVP does not equal PVE. PVE mobs dont get Bfs. Only question in PVE is are holds/primary as good as corruptor secondary (buff/debuff), in consideration with the relative damaeg each class does.

2: PVP - extreme damage attacks with stuns are overpowered. Melees with nrg attacks should have to chose low damage/stun OR extreme damage, not get both. Jousting is still happening. Can we please go back to -acc and lose suppression? Tanks SS by with Energy transfer, you almost die and are stunned, then they SS by with Total focus and its over. Spines scrappers are much too strong with their ranged attacks. TP foe needs a longer animation time AFTER the tp comes off (so they cant gank as you first show up near them) - I know this is possible, look at fire sword circle and greater fire sword. BFs should be weaker, maybe be resistance (reduce hold time) and not Mag increase. This would let holds at least drop toggles on squishies, making doms single target hold worth something. In addition, why do the dom ranged AOE soft holds (flashfire, flash freeze, etc) require a target to be on the ground? This is another limitation on something that has poor acc, low duration, and limited effect. They should at least work on flying/jumping mobs. Last, with health and the reduced duration times on sleep attacks (flash freeze anyway) the duration with 2 slots is so short the animation doesnt show at all. I understand it not being 2 minutes, but shouldnt it last at least 5 seconds? The slotted duration in PVP of flashfreeze if they have health is on the order of 0.3 seconds or so.

3: PVE - I was told the same thing (must have these ATs) about the respec mission. Had to have 2 corruptors, 2 brutes, and 2-3 masterminds. Was total crap. My teams with that composition failed, one very heavy on doms won easily. In specific, fire imps plus a domination and FE boosted attacks will eat through an AV quickly. I suspect you could win most of those fights before the triangles showed up, or immediately after they go down.

However, the perception is there, and will get worse with the PPP. Ice/dark corruptors will have 4 holds, compared to 2 for doms. Which AT is the control based one? To add it up, more holds, better damage, better health, better defense, more team buffing (healing and mob debuffs). My dom can solo fine and the changes will help, but the team impact needs to be evaluated. My suggestion is to buff artic air, hot feet, smoke and other PBAOE or AOE type soft controls to make them have more impact on helping a team. Smoke adds ~3% defense now. How worthless is that? Darkest night is how much, plus damage reduction? Im not saying doms should get as good debuffs as corruptors, but they should be evident.

I agree that the NPCs are over done. You maanage to flee a losing fight in PVP, and everywhere you turn is a warden. Appearently, they not only grow on trees but the trees were recently harvested.

Same for the pill box guns. They will kill a squishy trying to get a pillbox, but a blaster with aim+BU+TF will kill you without taking a hit as you sit in the middle of the turrents. How about a hurricane effect for the middle of the turrents until the guns are down?

Even my tank couldnt take turrents, are they supposed to be EB/AV difficulty?

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I don't know if this has been mentioned but the 1 hp hospital trip just slows things down. Its a real annoyance. Can't we have full health or at least half?

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/not signed, that delay that annoys you, makes the zone one where tactics matter, past waiting for a regrouping. Right now, you kill someone, and he wont be back for at least a minute or two, allowing you to do something. remove that delay, and local area wins become unlikely.

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Fair enough, but then it needs to be implemented in a more equitable fashion, since /Regens and self healing types can get back into the action with nary a delay while poor stupid schmucks like Dominators nearly spend more time in the hospital than out in the zone. Give people who die a stackable two minute 'rez sickness' debuff or something.

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Use a powerboosted aid self and you can go from dead to PVP again real fast, especially if you stamina.

I dont mind this, but I do think all powers should recharge. Its a double whammy for a dom with a pet to die, because he comes out and cant resummon a pet for quite a while.

I find the problem with doms in RV is their squishiness. However, my blaster is in the same boat. The difference is a blaster only needs 3 good hits total, not 1 hold, then much more than 3 to win.

All in all, though I think Im the poor dominator listed earlier as fighting the ice tank (doh ) and getting wiped (as in, where did that brute go? What, Im solo again?!?), Ive had decent success levels, considering 99% of heros are scrappers. I've more than held my own with trollers and defenders (when they were on their own), and even blasters if I see them before they attack me (no, I dont survive aim +BU + blapper attacks).

Seems to me, the main problems are extreme damage attacks also having stuns. Seems like thats amazingly unbalanced. Also, ranged attacks for scrappers suck. They can do more damage from range than my dom, PLUS all the advantages that scrappers already have.

With the lack of BFs, while doms suddenly get to hold squishies, they also became easy fodder for stuns from melees who resist mez while having stuns that take 90% of your health.

Also, on team PVP, trollers stack with defenders, while doms dont combine with corruptors. As soft controls are as good as hard controls in most cases, it comes down to how much damage in the control duration, where doms are way slower than em tanks and scrappers and blasters, and controllers as they have X3 damage.

I dont see doms as horribly gimped in PVP, but they still remain the most difficult, IMO.

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No... heroes aren't really being effected by villain holds at ALL from my experience, while there aren't alot of them with holds, hero holds are more powerful, and heroes have alot more self granted hold/mez resistance, of CoH's 7 AT's at least 4 have access to hold resistance (3 if you lump khelds into one group, 2 if you disclude them) and they all have high HP and holds. of CoV's 5 they have 2 that have it accross the board (ff MM's have it too, but...) one of them is very squishy (even though they can hide yes...) but in all villains are getting Patron powers that are on a lower level than Ancillary powers, with less to back them up against this inbalance...
-RAMBLE THAT IS SURE TO GET ME INSULTED OFFICIALLY OVER-

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How are hero holds more powerful? Dominators and controllers have the same mag. Other AT holds are 1 lower in mag, which make them resistable by acrobatics. Doms have 80% duration, but with BFs I would say the average hold time for all ATs is ~3 seconds (the time to pick and trigger a BF in the tray). With powerboost, hold durations for doms are much longer than anyones holds without BFs (but with BFs, ~3 seconds still).

Really, I havent been "held" much in RV. Its more stuns from nrg melee, immobs combo with head splitter, etc. Certainly the stregnth of holds has not been a problem, more the number of heros, the pre-ponderance of scrappers and tanks, and the difference in levels (4 more powers, lord knows how many extra slots). For example, many of my easy losses to scrappers would be a lot harder if I had my ppp armor running and slotted up. It would hurt, but I would survive and have options. As it is now, they dont miss and do loads of damage, I still usually have a chance if its only 1v1, and not 1 v 10-15 (who are smack talking about people running to the base!?!).

The same is also true of the jousting blasters. If you had the armor up, you would likely live long enough to hit BF (from the stun from TF) and to hold/run. As it is now, quite a few times my dead bod was left looking at a held blaster.

Im very disappointed in the PPP overall, but the armors (for a dom) will help a lot to even stuff out. Wish it had mez protection, but it will be good.

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I'm not sure When I'll have time to test this, so could someone answer a curiosity for me?

4 of 5 Villains PPPs contain a ranged Hold/Immob.... How is this affecting Blasters and Defenders? I ask b/c In general... The Devs' design mantra has always been "No AT is absolutely required for any team"... But if PvP becomes even more of a Mez-fest, then doesn't that make Empathy Defenders/Controllers required on all teams? We know Tanks and Scrappers can't absorbe mezzes, let alone find room to take Stimulant for their squishy Teammates so what exactly is the equalizer here? ...Other than a tray full of Break-frees I mean.

IE: Are Blasters and Defenders in ALL Team Make-Ups maintaining the same level of success they have in other zones and the Arena?

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Actually, with the massive nerfing of tank passive resists, many invul tanks are going a regen type route using 3 slotted health, DP and aid self. My invul tank has stimulant, though its duration of protection is amazingly low.

I found that many scrappers are difficult to hold mainly due to the combo of mez protection + high defense. Hard to hit, when you do hit it dont do anything. So, with a farily low to hit chance, you have to stack 3 holds (less with domination of course) and any misses typcially allow the first hold duration to expire (ie, not counting to overcoming mez protection). you cant use acc inspirations because you have to have a boat load of BFs too.

Tanks are the same, in that most tanks on test seem to be stone with granite or ice, which get a lot of defense.

I have held blasters and defenders and controllers, but scrappers and tanks are tough to hold, as much due to defense as mez protection.

On the PPP, it kinda makes me wonder about the thinking, as a corruptor (ice/dark) can have as many as 4 (or was it 5?) ST holds, plus two pets. In addition, they have a fear cone, healing, debuffs and good damage.

In my humble opinion (ok, not so humble), tanks and scrappers should have been vulnerable to mez, but keep defense and resistance while mezzed. They should never have had any ability to do any type of mezz at all (no stuns, KD, etc). Maybe real high knockback on one or two attacks that are on real long recharge timers (so it cant be a soft hold).

Then, squishies should have mez protection, and the ability to do mezzes (but balanced, as in if you do great damage, you cant mez). In my system, defenders and dominators and controllers would have mezzes, while blasters would not have mezzes and corruptor mezzes would be much weaker (only 1/set, and longer recharge).

While I know the above will never happen, as it is now mezzes are much better for blasters than controllers or dominators, because with BFs the durations just dont matter. Acrobatics is somewhat a counter to non-controller or non-dominator holds, but really holds dont work much in PVP.