Zubenelgenubi

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What you are evidently having immense trouble grasping is the NATURE of the errors that the Devs have made, which you cited. They all depended upon player use to screw them up. My point, which is really very simple, is that making a design decision to which players then react to unexpectedly is NOT the same as making a design decision that cripples your intent in and of itself, straight off the bat, making it unworkable for the very players for which it was intended (small SGs).

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Heh.

I grasp it completely. It’s just an irrelevant distinction. The only reason you even made the baffling contrast was as a smoke screen to cover your complete inability to refute my examples of errors made by the devs. (BTW, I’m still waiting for you to show me where I said that players would make empowerment stations unaffordable.)

You are evidently having immense trouble grasping the fact that a person who makes many errors in one area can also make them in another closely related area. It’s like saying that just because someone has atrocious spelling, you do not expect him to have poor grammar. In fact, you would predict that his grammar is excellent !


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Or - as I keep asking - do you perhaps think that's a valid concern? Do you really think the Devs would accidentally make empowerment stations too expensive by SOMEHOW requiring you to buy huge rooms for them? Maybe I could get an answer this time, instead of your delightful rhetoric?

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Jesus H. Christ on a Gravy-Soaked Biscuit….. You don’t know the answer YET ?!?!?!?!?


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By the way, there are numbers now, so this discussion is redundant.

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The word you are looking for here is “irrelevant.”

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Please make sure to not put words in other people's mouth. I'd go and check the exact quote that Jack posted. He definitely did not say there would be no more nerfage.

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Paraphrasing is not putting words into someone's mouth. Jack said that they were done making major changes to powers. I believe my point was clear without the the need for semantic quibbling.

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Is this a different workshop than where you place your workbenches? If not, 30K to put this stuff in isn't bad.

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My read on that is that the emp station/storage items take up the same "slot" as a workbench would, which is what I've been positing all along. So they'd need their own workroom.

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Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.

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I just checked the base editor. There's nothing in either workroom type for an "empowerment slot," so I assume this will be added with i7. Positron didn't say how many empowerment slots each size room would have, but he did use the singular noun.

Another question would be: If there's a storage locker in one workroom, would all the salvage in it be useable by the benches and forges in the other workrooms? Also, the question of quantity is important. I'm full up on Alien Tach, and so is everyone else in my SG. How much of a given item will the locker hold?

And THANK YOU for the information.

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I’m well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I don’t think Jack is stupid. As you said, “Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does.” So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.

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Incompetence is a very harsh word and one that I don't use lightly.

Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences with management, but more often than not people in positions of authority fail to see the forest for the trees, as it were.


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Well, I felt that “incompetence” was better than “stupidity.”

Seriously, I find it difficult to think of a better word to use. While I didn’t like ED, the way it came bounding at us on the heels of the i5 nerfs (or was it the i6 nerfs? They’re starting to blur together) after Jacks statement that there would be no more major nerfage…wow! Talk about a PR debacle!

But it seems we’re just talking semantics. In your “forest for the trees” example, I would label that incompetence. After all, it is the function of management to hold onto the Big Picture. If they lose sight of it… then they’re not earning their salaries.

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if you can come up with a way in which a player could make the empowerment stations unaffordable, then I'd love to hear it.

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Excuse me. The Wizard of Oz called. They need their straw man back.

Good God, your deliberate obtuseness astounds even this jaded long-time subscriber to these boards! I’m getting really tired of you putting words into my mouth. SHOW ME where I said that PLAYERS would make empowerment stations unaffordable. My first, last, and only point has always been that the DEVS could easily screw it up, because they have made so many simple and obvious errors in the past. What part of “devs” do you not understand? I’m saying that the devs might set the price of these things too high. The devs might make a mistake here. Your confidence in the devs could be misplaced. The devs have made errors in the past, and may therefore make an error here. I’m talking about the devs. If the devs are not paying attention, empowerment stations might cost too much. Do you get it yet? How many more times do I need to say “devs”? Five more? Devs, devs, devs, devs, devs. Devs =/= players. The devs can make errors independent of the actions of the players. The players are not the devs. What’s that? You need to hear “devs” a few more times? OK. Devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs.

SheeeeeEEEEEEEEEEeeeeesh!


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your argument changes again into “catastrophically stupid” (as opposed to, I guess, regular everyday stupidity).

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Yes. Because they would have to be catastrophically stupid to overprice empowerment stations by accident.

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It would be almost as catastrophically stupid as making giant walking XP piñatas called “Winter Lords” and putting dozens of them in each and every zone so that players could go from level 1 to 50 in just a couple of weeks, leaving the city overrun with high-level characters who cannot afford to buy their own SO enhancements and who don’t have the faintest clue how to play their own characters, many of whom quickly quit CoH because it’s boring and they’ve “done everything” (even though they have in fact done almost nothing).

I gave that example already. This time I held your hand and walked you through it. Try and keep up.

You seem to have this truly bizarre idea that numerous examples of past mistakes from the devs has nothing to do with the possibility of them making future mistakes!

Let’s see… accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords… accidentally over-price empowerment stations. Accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords… accidentally over-price empowerment stations…. Accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords… accidentally over-price empowerment stations.

Nope. Looks like I lost you.


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You’re comparing the game breaking effect of moving travel powers to level 46 with the game breaking effect of over pricing a few pieces of totally optional base equipment.

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No, I'm saying that a comparatively high level of incompetence would be needed to do either of these things unintentionally. And that's what you're just not looking at.

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Ummm… That is the exact comparison you made. In fact, you just made it again! I said, “you’re comparing” and you said, “no, it’s ‘comparatively’.” So in your mind comparing =/= comparatively ??????

Hoooooooo -
Leeeeeeeee -
Craaaaaaaaap!!!!


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The point where I first expressed disbelief at the reaction here was when someone suggested that the Devs would require players to get unaffordably large rooms to place otherwise affordable stations in.

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I got that. I got it right out the gate. I understood it completely the first time you said it. You were responding to Red Zero.

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That suggestion is ridiculous. Or don't you think so?

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Ummmmm….

...
errrr..

*looks back on numerous posts where I clearly disagree with Sadako*

…….

*reads the posts again*

*prints out all of my posts on paper and highlights the sentences where I say that I disagree with Sadako*

*runs out of highlighter ink*

….

…


(Help me out here people! As God is my witness… I cannot tell if Sadako is serious or not!)

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Statesman says, “We’re done making major changes to powers.” Then two months later ED is pushed through the test server and onto live in record time. Either Jack’s previous statement was deceitful, or it showed some serious stupidity and/or incompetence.

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Or in this case... a misperception on his part. That's his story anyway. As shady as it seems to some, I'm willing to take him as face value on this score because it sure wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone in management make change to poilcy, procedure, etc. without fully considering its impact.

Remember, that in ED, no numbers on the base powers were changed to facilitate the revision. In the mind of a manager like Jack, thet're not changing the powers. Its an entirely different system that is being adjusted. Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does.


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Yes, that’s Jack’s story, and he’s sticking to it!

I’m well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I don’t think Jack is stupid. As you said, “Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does.” So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.

(In my opinion, of course.)

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Still, you simply haven’t been reading my words very closely. Most of the examples I gave earlier had nothing to do with what they said,

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This whole kerfuffle is based on what they said. If it had been based on a decision, then there might be some merit to it.

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Sigh.

WHAT has happened to reading comprehension these days?

Here are my first words in this thread:

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They never thought that characters would have perma-MoG. They never thought that griefers would TP others into towers and trap them. They never thought that players would slot 1 acc and 5 dmg SO's into an attack power. They never thought that anyone would farm kracken in the sewer trial. They never thought that people with pre-i2 characters would complain about the impossibility of them getting the Isolator badge. They never thought anyone would level up insanely fast on Winter Lords (the XP pinatas). They never thought that anyone would farm the Hamidon for +50/+50 enhancements day after day after day. They never thought that anyone would use the wolf mission for PLing, or after that the "dead scanner" mission, or after that the "Dreck" mission....

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NONE of the examples that I gave above, which were the start of the “kerfuffle” you and I are involved in, has anything to do with what a dev said. You know, all of these examples are of decisions.

Try again.


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I’m just calling you out on your utterly unsupportable position that the devs cannot make an error

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But this is the kind of error that would be tantamount to giving bazookas to Hellions or moving travel powers to level 46. The Devs are NOT infallible. I've never said that they are, not once. But they are NOT catastrophically stupid either.

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Nice how your arguments morph when your own words are shot down. You start out by saying (implying, actually) that the devs would surely have thought of everything when they price the new base items. So I give examples of other bad outcomes to their decisions that they never “thought” of. Then to you it all suddenly becomes an argument about what a red name said. When I post the classic example of a direct statement from a red name that was in conflict with later reality, you claim “vagueness,” but not necessarily deceit, stupidity, or incompetence. When I point out that at least one of these three had to be involved, your argument changes again into “catastrophically stupid” (as opposed to, I guess, regular everyday stupidity).

And speaking of “catastrophically stupid”:

You’re comparing the game breaking effect of moving travel powers to level 46 with the game breaking effect of over pricing a few pieces of totally optional base equipment.

Riiiiiiiiight.

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Sure, the Devs have used ambiguous phrasing before. That doesn't make them stupid, incompetent or deceitful.

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It doesn’t mean they aren’t any of those things either.

Statesman says, “We’re done making major changes to powers.” Then two months later ED is pushed through the test server and onto live in record time. Either Jack’s previous statement was deceitful, or it showed some serious stupidity and/or incompetence.

Still, you simply haven’t been reading my words very closely. Most of the examples I gave earlier had nothing to do with what they said, and everything to do with the decisions they made. Like having Winter Lords give out waaaaay too much XP, as just one example among many.

Face it, the devs have made several easily predictable blunders in a great many aspects of the game. They’ve left gaping exploit holes wide enough for hordes of pimply-faced teenagers to drive semi trucks through. And drive through them they did, in droves. Some of these exploits were seen and reported well before they went live… and yet they went live anyway.

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Still, if you want to use a few precedents as a cause to fret about any statement that might be taken negatively, then I can hardly stop you. Fretting is a forum sport, after all.

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I’m personally not fretting. I’m just calling you out on your utterly unsupportable position that the devs cannot make an error and price these new empowerment stations too high. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t.

And your only response to my counter examples is to say, “Well, those mistakes were for different things." Yeah, they were for different things! Duh! Since empowerment stations are so new they’re not even in the game yet, it is logically impossible for the devs to have screwed them up in the past!

Again, I’m not saying that this one particular aspect of i7 will be screwed up. I’m saying that given the devs’ track record, it would not surprise me in the least if it was. And your perfect confidence in them simply flies in the face of CoH history.

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A red name said it. I believe it. That settles it.

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I refer you to my last post:


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...and convinently refuse to respond to anything I said.

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I think it was "Because there's no way the devs could make the cost of obtaining an Enpowerment Station too high for a small SG

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... by mistake.

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Because, of course, we all know that they don't MAKE mistakes!

They don't make XP given for seasonal monsters too high, or make the effectiveness of defensive powers so good that you may as well be playing in God Mode, or anything like that.

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As the redname said:

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Everything in this issue will be "reasonably priced". It doesn't make sense for us to set out to help small supergroups and then charge large supergroup Prestige for the items.

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And yet, some people are fretting that they somehow might do this. Go figure.

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You know, you’ve convinced me. After all, when a red name says something, then we can trust it explicitly. Never any unpleasant surprises after that. Nope. You are absolutely, 100% correct.

So let’s say, for example, that Statesman himself makes a statement like “We are done making major changes to powers.” Well, surely we can take that to the bank. The devs would NEVER turn around just a couple months later and do something totally contrary to a common sense interpretation of that proclamation! Something like, oh I don’t know… making major changes to how power enhancements work so that damage output, healing rates, etc. would be much lower than before. (I mean, can you just imagine!) And they would ABSOLUTELY NEVER offer up a lame excuse for such inconsistencies like, “oh, well, I said we were done balancing powers, but I didn’t say we would leave enhancements alone!”

A red name said it. I believe it. That settles it.

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Ah. So even though the devs have made numerous easily predictable errors in the past, in this particular case that SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN because... err.. because....

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Because there's no way even the most devious player can cause an Empowerment Station to cost more. Like I said.

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What was that? I didn't quite hear you.

I think it was "Because there's no way the devs could make the cost of obtaining an Enpowerment Station too high for a small SG."

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Your question, the one I responded to, basically implied that the devs were too smart to let really obvious errors or misjudgements slip past them.

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Errors and misjudgements that involve predicting player behaviour, not setting the price of their own additions. Nothing the players can do will make empowerment stations cost more, will it?

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Ah. So even though the devs have made numerous easily predictable errors in the past, in this particular case that SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN because... err.. because....

Umm...

Because Sadako says so....?

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They never thought that characters would have perma-MoG. They never thought that griefers would TP others into towers and trap them. They never thought that players would slot 1 acc and 5 dmg SO's into an attack power. They never thought that anyone would farm kracken in the sewer trial. They never thought that people with pre-i2 characters would complain about the impossibility of them getting the Isolator badge. They never thought anyone would level up insanely fast on Winter Lords (the XP pinatas). They never thought that anyone would farm the Hamidon for +50/+50 enhancements day after day after day. They never thought that anyone would use the wolf mission for PLing, or after that the "dead scanner" mission, or after that the "Dreck" mission....

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But this is nothing LIKE that. This is about how much something costs, not about unconventional uses for things they've put in. And no way on earth is something accidentally going to cost more than they intended it to.

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If a Winter Lord gives an ungodly amount of XP, how is someone killing them for XP an "unconventional use?"

Your question, the one I responded to, basically implied that the devs were too smart to let really obvious errors or misjudgements slip past them.

I just gave several examples where they did just that.

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And the Devs won't have thought of this because.....?

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...because of past evidence.

They never thought that characters would have perma-MoG. They never thought that griefers would TP others into towers and trap them. They never thought that players would slot 1 acc and 5 dmg SO's into an attack power. They never thought that anyone would farm kracken in the sewer trial. They never thought that people with pre-i2 characters would complain about the impossibility of them getting the Isolator badge. They never thought anyone would level up insanely fast on Winter Lords (the XP pinatas). They never thought that anyone would farm the Hamidon for +50/+50 enhancements day after day after day. They never thought that anyone would use the wolf mission for PLing, or after that the "dead scanner" mission, or after that the "Dreck" mission....

Lothic,

Your post was concise, logical, compelling, and covered all the basic points of this debate. You supported your position very well. And you did it without being rude, insulting, petty, or childish.

As such, it has NO PLACE in this thread! Shame on you!

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Please show me where in this thread someone said give us isolator but keep the others special.

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I'll be honest, I really don't want to go back and hunt through thirty-plus pages of thread; several people have tried to argue that the event badges are "different" when asked why they shouldn't be brought back. Though most of them haven't outright said, "We don't want you to have them," the strong implication is there in some of the posts.

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“We don’t want you to have them” is, in fact, the fundamental argument from the anti-Isolator crowd, at least in this thread. Although some have added nice personal attacks into the mix.

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id: this debate doesn't exist just on this thread, and I have heard many people make this argument in the game proper. Heck, there was a raging debate over this on a certain badgers channel which shall remain nameless back at Halloween, when it became apparent that the Halloween badges would not be offered for a second year. Some of the gloating and self-high-fiving among those who had the badges was...well, juvenile, to say the least. And many of them are the same people who complain about Isolator not being available to them.

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Soooo… essentially your position is that some unnamed people in an old thread that isn’t this one said things you didn’t like, but you’re not going to bother linking, quoting, or otherwise proving this assertion. So now those of us in this thread who are pro-Isolator have to answer for it.

Interesting.

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It's when someone thinks that HE (or she) should be able to get all the badges...but that the same shouldn't apply to others...that I have a problem with it.

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That would bother me too. Fortunately, I know of nobody in the pro-Isolator camp in this thread who has said anything like that.

I believe that any character should have the opportunity to obtain any badge that was added to the game after the character was created. Any character that is around when a badge is introduced should be allowed the opportunity to get that badge.

TRIVIA QUESTION: Name the one single badge that violates the preceding statement of principle.

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*trips and falls*
I bent my wookie...

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DUUUUDE....

We do NOT want to hear about your "wookie"....

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Also, the population of people who post in a thread like this is not a representative of the opinions of the population as a whole.

You are falling into the Biased Sample fallacy.

Also note that I am not talking about the set of people who don't want Isolator to be given retroactively...I am talking about people who don't care and would rather the devs do something else. The line between the two is blurred I will admit, but there is a difference.

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You are absolutely correct that those posting in this thread do not represent an unbiased sample. That’s why I’ve never counted people saying “pro” or “con” in this or any other thread on the topic. And I’m glad that you’ve found one of my favorite websites useful.

My only point, in a single line of a longer post, was that it isn’t a good idea to just make up numbers like you did. Now if you were to say, “more people are apathetic to the Isolator badge than there are asking for it,” I would agree with that statement.

But I still stand by my statement that a “lot” of people would be happy to get Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. I can do that with great confidence, since after all the word “lot” is slippery and doesn’t have a pre-defined meaning, so no one can prove me wrong.

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Agreed. Some people are 100% against it - some are 100% for it - and neither will change their minds. Now it's all up to the Devs. Your voices were heard! Thanks for the feedback on it.

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THANK YOU, Cuppa.

Having our voices heard on this issue is all that I or anyone else asking for Isolator want. Well, we also want Isolator, naturally!

And a civil discourse, of course of course.

And JELLY BEANS!! The green gourmet kind that taste like apples!

Oh, and is there any of that coffee left? It looks good too.

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I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.

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Making up statistics doesn’t really help your argument, but whatever.

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I am doing the same amount of "making up" of statistics that you have. You claim that there are lots of people who would like this. I am claiming that there are a lot more that don't care. My opinion on the numbers are equally as valid as yours. If you dismiss mine, you need to dismiss yours as well.

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Ummm, no, actually.

I’ve never made up a “statistic” in this discussion. A statistic requires an actual number. I have clear evidence, however, that “lots” of people would like Isolator on their pre-i2 characters. The evidence is that every time a thread like this one begins, it very quickly grows large. Heck, in just the last two days three or four newcomers have chimed in adding their voices to the pro-Isolator side.

The only statistics used came from you, when you pulled "40 or 50" out of thin air. And by saying that your “opinion on the numbers are equally as valid” as mine, you’re making a Burden of Proof logical fallacy. You are the one who made up those numbers, so the burden of proof falls on you.

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The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.

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A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.

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However, sometimes you have to do things the customers may not like in order to provide better service or to attract new customers. What good are the "loyal customers" if your not making enough money to keep your buisness running? Sometimes as a buisness, you HAVE to say no, even if the customer may not like it.

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Now you see people, it IS possible to disagree with someone on these forums without being disagreeable! It is even possible to make a point without personally insulting hundreds of people you don’t even know! Imagine that!

Your point is valid, in general, LiquidX. However, since we’re talking about Isolator, you have to ask yourself if it applies to this topic.

Nerfs to regen (as just a single example) would fall into the category of “do(ing) things the customers may not like in order to provide better service or to attract new customers.” Prior to the nerfs,my teaming with regen scrappers was like watching someone play in God Mode. So while those who ran regen scrappers were unhappy, the game as a whole was better off.

But allowing pre-i2 characters to obtain Isolator just doesn’t fall into that category. It would not have any negative effect on new players. The only people who could possibly be bothered by this are a handful who apparently take a lot of glee in saying crap like, “HA HA I have it and you don’t!” or “Quit whining!” (Both of the preceding being actual quotes from certain members of the anti-Isolator crowd in this thread.)

So giving it out would make many long-time loyal customers happy, while not causing any harm at all to new customers.

Sigh.

Soooooo nice to be speaking with a reasonable adult once again!

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(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.

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The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.

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A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.

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I bet for every person out there that would like some way to get Isolator on the hero that missed it, there are 40 or 50 that really don't care and have much more inportant things they wouldlike changed. In the whole scheme of things that people want in CoH, getting a badge added is, IMO, insignificant.

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Making up statistics doesn’t really help your argument, but whatever.

Some people in the game want other things, sure. For example, in the PvP zones there was a problem of villains and heroes camping their opponent’s hospitals. So the devs listened to the complaints and made the hospitals more secure. Now to me, I could not have cared less about hospital security in PvP zones, but other people did. And those other people get what they were asking for. I would rather the devs have spent their time on wings and trench coats. To me, the hospital problem was insignificant. There will always be something that one group wants that some other groups thinks is “not worth the effort.”

Because the customers want it is not an invalid reason to do something, you know.

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And again, I, (nor do I believe anyone else was) was not arguing that it couldn't be trivial, but no matter how trivial it is, it's still going to be taking away from things that DO matter, and that is what this point is meant to address. You are turning it into an argument that it is not, that it would be difficult. Straw man.

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And again, this was all covered in the part of my post that you conveniently deleted. Here, let me hold your hand as I walk you through it. Ready? Here we go:

A new mission will be created for Pocket D. This was done very recently, and it will be done again. The devs have already said that there will be more temporary missions coming out of Pocket D in the future. So are you with me still? This new content from Pocket D will happen one way or the other. You got that? Now when a new mission is created, it needs to be populated by villains for us to fight. So at some point in the future the new Pocket D mission will need to have villains added to it when it is created. Am I going too fast here? Now, how are these villains added to a mission? Someone sits at a computer and creates a spawn point on the mission map. They give that spawn point certain characteristics like villain type, level, and number of villains spawned.
OK, not here’s where it gets reeeeally complicated… see if you can keep up… OK, you ready? Here it is: It does not take ANY MORE EFFORT to make the villain mob “contaminated” than it does to make them “Nemesis” or “Arachnos” or any other villain type in the game! (Whew! That sure was a long sentence! Sorry about that!)

So to sum up:
New content will be added one way or the other.
Villains will be part of that new content.
Those villains could be contaminated.
Total EXTRA EFFORT required: Exactly ZERO

Do you get it now?

(Of course you get it. You got it before. But you clearly just refuse to acknowledge that your objection was answered. You will surely come up with some other bizarre way to twist my words around so you can keep arguing. Or, more likely, you will just delete my above words and pretend they don’t exist, like you did earlier today with my longer post.)



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When did I defend his use of personal attacks? Oh, that's right, I didn't, I merely stated that his points were not invalidated by them.

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Which is defending his use of personal attacks. The “points” you admire so much are almost nothing but crude ad hominems or lame justifications of crude ad hominims. So when you say his points are “not invalidated,” you’re supporting his use of ad hominims.

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And please, spell it out, what's it say about me?

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It means that you are very comfortable placing yourself in the same camp as him. And it says that you could really use a good course in rhetoric.

And it means that I’m also done responding to you. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you only read what you want to read, and you think that crass insults are perfectly fine in a discussion between adults.

So. You want the last word? Knock yourself out. My points have been made, many times over.

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(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT

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The argument is NOT that it would be too difficult to implement, it's that the devs could be working on more important things with their time. This would be an example of one of your straw men.

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Um, no, your response is another straw man example. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). My answer was that the effort would be trivial. Remember the fighting monkeys? Of course you do. You just don’t want to acknowledge the point.

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(3) IT DOESN’T MATTER
“So what if your character doesn’t have this badge? It doesn’t do anything. Get over it.”

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Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?

If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.

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Straw man again. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). And you also seem to be confused about what *I* am saying. I have never said “it doesn’t matter so give it to us.” Never, never, never once. Go back and re-read what I actually posted please.

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(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
“It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, it’s not the beginning of your career now, is it?”

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You're glossing over this because you don't want to admit its a completely valid point. Everyone who earned isolator the correct way completed the task as it's stated on the badge, and now you want to change it, just so it can fit your needs.

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I didn’t gloss over it. I already answered this (yet again, in the part that you cut out).


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(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
“You’re all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status.” Or “You don’t have it - HA HA get over it!”

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By harping on this, you only make your position look that much lless fortified. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it. Going off on them for using what you consider to be personal attacks (although they are generally on topic WRT this thread), just makes you look bad. Respond to an argument if they have one, but trying to tell them how you disapprove of the method in which they argue just makes you look silly.


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This was also answered in the part you cut out. It was included for purposes of completeness. Go back and read my post closely please. You’ll see it.

FYI, I am ignoring Tremere now. His personal attacks show him to be an individual of little to no consequence who has nothing constructive to add to the discussion. That you would defend his use of personal attacks as valid rhetoric says a lot about you too.