Amygdala
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I enjoy Keyes the way it is. It does have a greater learning curve than the other trials, but I have recently been on several runs that only took around 20 minutes. One run only took 17 minutes. I have seen multiple groups able to charge all 10 terminals at Reactor Genesis before Anti Matter even arrives. I have seen a PuG run that succeeded without any single target heals in the league. I have managed to get Master of Keyes twice over. People are definitely getting better at this trial and I have heard from several people that after having been on several smooth runs, their impression of the trial has improved. Please note that I play on Champion, not Freedom or Virtue, and that 80% of the time I play a squishy character.
Despite my enjoyment of the trial, I would not object to some of the quality of life suggestions posted in this thread. Having the time freeze also freeze powers such as Disintegration and the Obliteration Beam would make sense. Increasing the visibility of the player subject to Disintegration, sure, that works. Reducing the timer on the hospital door, while not Keyes specific, would also be nice.
However, I don't see any of these suggestions increasing the fun factor for people who do not enjoy the trial. I see them simply for what they are, quality of life improvements. Adjusting these attributes may appeal to folks who are 'middle of the road' when it comes to Keyes. For the people who really don't enjoy the trial (of which there seem to be many) it isn't going to change the fact that there still exist trial mechanics that they simply do not like. For example, reducing the damage done by the pulse isn't going to change the fact that there is still auto hit damage on a timer that you cannot mitigate. Improving the visibility of the gimmicks during the fight with Anti Matter isn't going to change the fact that the final fight is very gimmick intensive. Reducing the number of terminals per reactor or Power Cells required per terminal is not going to change the fact that this part is repetitive.
Thus, I don't think that the changes suggested so far will make the trial fun for those who do not find it fun. If anything, it will make it less horrible, but won't change the fact that it is still horrible in the minds of many players. The only way to truly address these issues would be either to make the pulse and other gimmicks so mild such that they're virtually irrelevant, or to completely change the trial. Either way, you would have to take away what makes Keyes 'Keyes'.
With this in mind, I do not think Keyes needs an overhaul. It may not be the most popular trial, but there are those that like it. At this point, I think what would be more helpful is to identify what people find fun about trials in general: which mechanics they enjoy and which they do not so that future content can reflect this. -
None of the trials have ever required X number of Tanks, or any particular AT, to be completed successfully.
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Quote:Solo Apex and Solo Master Tin MageOriginally Posted by Snow Globe
And they are able to be done solo how? -
Congrats!
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Managed to get Loves a Challenge and Avoid the Green Stuff on the second run, and Anti-Anti-Matter and Bunker Buster on the third. Everyone did an awesome job! Thanks again for coming out and congrats on your Master of Keyes!
Next week I'll be out of town for the long weekend. @Stray Kitten is also thinking of hosting some Mo Lambda and Mo BAF runs in the near future, possibly during this time slot, so stay tuned! -
Just a reminder that this is today. I'll be hosting a training run for Keyes at 2pm Eastern followed by badge runs starting at 3pm Eastern. See you in Pocket D!
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I like this idea. There can be a lot of chatter in league and sometimes you just want to focus in on what the leader says needs to be done. Even just making the leader chat a different colour would be helpful. This is especially true for Keyes, where everyone seems to get really excited about using their disintegration macros all at once.
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Quote:I can understand your reservations given your connection issues. As you stated, that has been resolved for the most part. I wouldn't be too worried about the occasional crash. The tone of your previous posts seems to imply that the trial leader is central to success. This is simply not true. As someone who leads trials on a daily basis, I've crashed many times before without coming back to a league riot. Give some credit to your fellow league mates.Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
2. I thought I explained my reservations on leading trials fairly well. When they first started I wanted to wait until I understood what needed to be done before I led one.. something far too many so called leaders out there right now never bother with. heck I was on one league recently where it took 3 tries for us to make the leader undersatnd how to Q up the trial. Later on the lag situation became so bad I couldn't even think of joining a full sized BAF because I'd simply crash over and over. I could do mini BAFs and Lambdas but there were times when the lag would crash me even on those.. So I avoided leading because I didn't want to start something and then go POOF and force leadership on someone that had no desire to do it.
I understand taking the 'sit back and learn' approach. It makes sense and it's safe. However, one of my favorite trials I've been on to date was my first Keyes run. No one had done it before, including the leader. But he took the plunge anyways. He opened up VoodooGirl's guide and did what he could. And you know what happened next? We failed. Imagine the horror and wasted time, I know. After that, he ran another one and it succeeded because everyone had learned from their experience. Whether your leading or participating in a trial for the first time, you can read all the guides you want, but there's going to be some experiential learning when you finally try it for the first time. That may involve making mistakes. E.g., the person who doesn't know how to start up the trial. They could have been on 100 trials but if it's their first time doing that, it might take them a second to figure out what's what. It's not a big deal. Just give them a hand and move on.
I'm not sure why you're asking this, since the answer is fairly obvious. Most people are going to tell you that it's not OK, and those that don't are probably the ones that do things like this. The most important thing though is that it bothers you. Even if you get everyone to nod their head in agreement, it's not going to help your circumstances as much as rating a player in game, ignoring them in the future or starting up your own trials.Quote:Originally Posted by Wicked WendyNow .. I want to see just how many people actually think its perfectly okay for a leader here, or for anyone anywhere, to purposely LIE about what they intend to do and trick others into joining them so THAT leader can have what HE wants. There are players out there that believe that no one else in this game matters at all as long as they get what they want. If you met someone like that in real life you'd probably grow to dispise and hate them pretty quickly but here because they are WILLING to lead a team we are suppose to ignore treating people like people.
Most people aren't defending the person that lied about the trial, though. We're pointing out that you were quick to judge the leader in example 3, which did not involve lying about which trial they were going to run. -
Sorry to hear, Sov. Hopefully you get things sorted out soon.
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Quote:Agreed.Originally Posted by TonyV
So of the three trials, you bailed on two and one failed. Big effin' deal! On the one that failed, how many threads and Astral Merits did you get? How much Incarnate experience? I'm guessing they were something above zero, so it's not like you were just piddling around wasting time with nothing to show for it. Unfortunately, though it sounds like you also managed to convince three people in the process that they're utterly incompetent at leading trials and shouldn't try. Wouldn't it have been better--even worth giving up some rewards for--if you had had a little patience and understanding and possibly helped to create three more kick-a** trial leaders, people who have graduated from the school of hard knocks and learned from their experience, instead?
So that's my rant. I'm just really tired of people playing this game with the attitude that their time is so precious that if they don't get the particular shiny they were going after, no matter what other rewards they were getting along the way, it was just a miserable failure because their fellow player wasn't a perfect automaton doing things they way you think is "right."
It also seems a lot of people will judge something before it even starts, and unless the team set up or the method is the one they're used to, they automatically predict failure. It's not even worth it to try and see what happens. And I get it, winning is fun. Astral and Empyrean merits are smexy. But, isn't it also kind of fun to see what happens in unusual circumstances? Isn't it fun to try something new once in a while? Sure, you'll probably win with a stacked team, but it leaves you thinking "Well of course it succeeded. Look how many X we had!" When the underdog team wins, you're more like "[censored] yeah! Did you see that?"
In short, this:
Quote:Originally Posted by Mary HLet me say something more general: it is possible to have successful teams with unusual compositions. It's even fun. -
Quote:There was obviously a misunderstanding, so let's just leave it at that. It happens, right? Not a big deal and doesn't require a lengthy explanation or apology. Might I suggest that you contact the people involved directly (not via The Pretty Ouroboros Badge/Temp Power Guide thread). I.e., Send a tell or PM to Cherry Cupcakes and possibly the other BMT moderators if you would like to go through them to get your event added. For example, Braije and Myrmydon, who have also posted in this thread, are both BMT moderators. Perhaps one of them could assist you with this matter.Originally Posted by ColonelKomphort
If I could figure out how to do it, I would post a picture of Steve Urkel saying, "Did I do that?"
Sorry, guys. Like I said, every time I post a reply on here, I get my head bit off. I think my sense of humor gets lost in the translation or something.
I am a 52-year-old retired computer programmer with a lot of spare time who likes to play games, and specifically, this game. I never meant to stir up any conflict. I apologize for posting. I may be a five-year veteran on Champion, but I am still a forum board noob. I started this brouhah by asking a question that I thought was innocent enough, and I never meant any harm by it.
Let me reiterate this, though: Excellent guide, never meant to disrespect the work that was put into it.
One other thing, this is for Cobalt. Sorry, dude, but what happened was this (wish I had actual transcripts, but I dont): I asked Cherry Cupcakes to change the MotD, to add an event. She said she couldn't, unless it was scheduled in the Calendar of Events. In other words, putting it on the CoE was a NECESSARY condition to putting it on the MotD. When I asked how to get something put into the Calendar of Events, THEN she SUGGESTED I put something on the boards. THAT was the suggestion. The suggestion was NOT that I COULD put it on the boards, but that putting something on the boards would be how to get something into the Calendar of Events, and then eventually on the MotD. Sure, having something on the boards, on the CoE, on the FB page, all make sense NOW, but at the time, I just wanted one thing: the MotD. You can say that that was for my benefit if you want, but to tell you the truth, I would have never even started this thing if she had just added a message to the MotD, because I would have never gone to the boards. I'm not blaming Cherry Cupcakes, either. She was just doing her "job". Im just trying to get my facts straight.
Please don't bite my head off over this, Cobalt. I mean no harm. I'm just trying to understand what it is that I am supposed to be doing. And I am sure that my reply is probably in the wrong place, not relevant, and has a few spelling mistakes. That's why I try to stay OFF the boards: I figure my $0.02 is somehow interfering with REAL work. The devs have enough to read without having to moderate my posts. So, maybe I am not google-literate, as Sep suggested. I am willing to admit, I'm not forum board-literate, obviously. If my asking one question caused all this, I will not be visiting the boards again any time soon. But let me say this: very few times have I ever been DISCOURAGED to ask questions, like I feel I have been this time. I won't be asking any more questions on here any time soon.
And I'm sorry if I went over any word limit in this or my previous post, I'm trying to avoid being misunderstood.
And I'm sorry for not adding any graphics.
There, have I apologized to everybody? -
Good raid everyone. Thanks for hosting, Horus.
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Your first 2 examples sound more or less like poor leadership, but this third example stood out to me for a few reasons.
Quote:I think your prediction here may very well have been inaccurate. I have seen many support/non melee characters that dominate the temps phase of the trial, whereas some melee struggle. Level shifts and Destiny buffs go a long way as well. Teams that stick together also have an easier time collecting temps. I can't count how many times I've seen a +3 melee run off to solo the temps and and die while the squishies who stuck together were just fine. Bottom line: the success or failure of a team is often more than the sum of its ATs.Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
3. Today a group of us were standing around and someone said "Okay since no one else wants to I'll form a Lambda and we can do the BAF afterwards.. Sounded perfect until the teams formed. Team one, the leader's team btw, was nothing but brutes, tankers and scrappers. Team 2, the one I was placed on, was nothing but blasters, an MM, a corruptor, one tank and one SoA. In short team 2 was going to spend a LOT of time face down on the floor in phase two.
Here, you make the assumption that the leader is not going to balance the teams at any point during the trial. As others have pointed out, many trial leaders adjust the teams after they zone because of the highly prevalent team jumble that occurs. However, even if the leader actually did intend on keeping the teams as is, you could have suggested or requested that they be balanced at some point.Quote:Originally Posted by Wicked WendyI figured after he was done recruiting the leader would juggle but NO and not only that he announce that team 1 would be doing acids and 2 would get grenades. Acids always seems to be a little easier than the grenades .. less lag and a simpler route. Then this idiot actually q'd us up.. I was assuming all the time he was joking but he actually intended to run the league that way.
Unfortunately you decided to quit rather than communicate. A little communication here could have gone a long way. For example, you could have clarified what his intentions actually were rather than assume. You could have made suggestions on how to better balance the teams. If your teams weren't revised, you could also communicate with your team and suggest someone familiar with the map take point so you would have an easier time of staying together, etc.Quote:Originally Posted by Wicked WendyI decline the q and quit. Now I don't give a crap if I hunt acids or grenades I have done enough trials to have both routes memorized but DO NOT put together a team that has failure written all over it and expect me to hang around so you can giggle at my frustration.
It is understandable that you became frustrated after having multiple bad experiences. Your third example has a 'last customer of the day' tone to it, where you're tired of dealing with people and just want to go home. Sometimes it can be challenging to not let our past experiences dictate our assumptions, forcing us into hasty decisions. However, consider this: even though some leaders may be incompetent or inexperienced, the vast majority form trials with the intent of being successful. Their methods may be ineffective or misguided, but I find it hard to believe your league leader deliberately sabotaged your team so that you'd constantly die and not be able to collect the temps. At the end of the day, we all want to get our Astral/Empyrean merits and be on our way. Sometimes leaders need pointers on how to make that happen.
Others have suggested you try leadership for yourself. I also support this suggestion. Not because I think you don't have a right to criticize leaders without having direct experience, but because I think the steps you take should ultimately improve your situation. That may involve leading trials, but that could also involve making suggestions and giving constructive feedback during trials if necessary. Regardless of what you choose to do, in the future I would at least try to exhaust all reasonable options to help improve a trial before quitting. -
Thanks for hosting this, MichealBond.
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If I'm able to make it, I'll bring my Fire/Dark Corruptor.
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I'd say for the past week or so I've noticed my power icons blinking/flashing as if they were to expire, only it's the entire bar of power icons and includes powers that would not normally expire in that fashion (e.g. toggles).
I have tried changing my settings to turn off the blinking feature, but there has been no improvement. It is quite distracting to have your entire bar of power icons flashing at you.
So far, I've found one other post here describing this issue. Has anyone else noticed this lately? -
I will be hosting another badge run this Saturday August 27th at 3pm Eastern in Pocket D. I won't post a sign up for this run. Just come at the regular time if you're interested in the badges.
I will also try to put together a standard Keyes run at 2pm Eastern (1 hour before). This will be for any people new to the trial who would like to gain some experience with it before attempting the badges.
See you then! -
I should be there.
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Congrats!
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Thanks for running this! Incarnates definitely make the CoP a lot easier than it used to be. The Storm used to give a lot of people trouble.
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Great runs today folks. We did 3 trials total with about 18 people in the league and managed to get Bunker Buster, Anti-Anti-Matter and Loves a Challenge. Came very close to Green Stuff but had a few unlucky moments.
Thanks everyone who came out to help today and great work! Congrats on the badges! -
Team 1:
1) @Thul Sorapa - Lady Clara (WP/Axe Tanker)
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Team 2:
1) @Amygdala - Giulia Tofana (Ice/Thermal Corruptor)
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Quote:Myself, Jitsurei, SovereignSavior, Mr Squid and Captain Drej (to name a few) have led Keyes almost nightly during weekday evenings since around the time the trial came out. There is no set time for them but they usually take place between 5pm and 7pm Eastern. So they are happening regularly and new people are included in those runs each time. This is why I haven't scheduled 'regular' Keyes runs for the time being because I'm still seeing several new faces on those runs.Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Never done a Keyes, so I'd like to suggest the next planned run to be for people that don't have "experience" enough to try for badges. If Badge runs are the only time these are gonna happen regularly, you'll be getting the same people over and over after a while.
However, since I have read that many have still not done the trial at all, I have considered scheduling some standard runs as interest in Master badges wanes. So far we've only done 2 sessions of Master badges and we've nearly had a full house both times. I know some people missed out last weekend who have asked me to run it again, so I am expecting enough to show for this Saturday. After this group gets the badges I may look into other options. -
I'll be hosting another badge run this Saturday, August 20th at 3pm Eastern in Pocket D. We'll try to cover all badges unless most people already have a certain one (E.g. Bunker Buster). I may only be able to do 3 runs total, but it will depend on time. On that note, please try to arrive promptly so we can start at 3pm Eastern.
Please sign up below if you are interested in the Master of Keyes badges and have prior experience with the trial. (A Masters run is not the ideal time to learn how to do the trial).
Also, if you already have the badges but would like to help, feel free to sign up just the same. Please note however that if we are over booked I may ask those with the badges to give up their spot.
See you on Saturday!
Team 1
1) @Amygdala Sonic/Pain Corruptor
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Quote:Give me a shout if you need help with anything. I'm usually willing to team at any level.Originally Posted by GenderPoison
Maybe I'm sick of soloing.. and don't have much time to TF. Maybe I miss my old and new SG mates.. and would'nt mind spending the limited time I get with them and friends I've made ingame over the past 5 years or even helping out where I'm needed? I think maybe I miss being here as much as I had been. Sorry if I came accross as a snob.