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Maybe it's finally healing itself*?|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Haven't seen this many threads about Regen in years
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*the dead horse we've been beating on
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Look at the group of people who say that it needs help. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
I've been wondering.
There has been a lot said of how Regen underperforms when compared to other sets. |
Then be ashamed that you ever sided with them.
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It's a fine set. It doesn't need buffs in normal play. In fact, I think Regen actually performs better than some sets in situations where there are extreme times of burst and then lulls, like running trials. So I'm not here fishing for buffs. I am just explaining why the set isn't my favorite and because I enjoy discussing this stuff.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Two things.
If you think you can't put QR + Stamina to good use even in the modern day, I think you're doing it wrong. I had a [Edit: Regen!] Scrapper that didn't have Fitness to maximize other things, and it was painful, even with a Miracle/Numina/PShifter. Inherent Fitness didn't water down that build, it made it more able to run non-stop, even including firing Incarnate powers off. On the flip side, I have a Stone/Fire Brute thats DPS suffers due to endurance drain without Cardiac [Edit: despite having Fitness and the afore-mentioned IOs]. Replacing Cardiac on that character with Spiritual (what I really want) then also requires me to swap out Barrier or Rebirth for Ageless. That's not a trivial exchange (though it's not unambiguously negative). On Regens with QR+Fitness, I go Spiritual and never look back. |
I agree that extra Endurance is an advantage, but I solve that problem on most scrapper and brutes so it isn't that big of a deal anymore. The game's movement towards softening the Endurance issues (which I totally agree with) has softened Regen's edge.
I also think Regen needs additional mitigation to perform at the highest levels, be it Shadow Meld, lots of knockdown from powers (like Shockwave) or other tricks to compete at the highest levels.
Plus it loses time to activating powers. The is much worse if redraw is involved. The advantage of extra Endurance probably doesn't make up for that, at least in my builds.
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| Second, while I can't argue the reality that Regen costs you DPS to perform, I think I can question how much of an effect it has in practice on anything but AV soloing and pylon runs. I've already conceded that, in my opinion, Regen isn't a good choice for those. But honestly I have never felt my damage watered down in other contexts because I played a Regen, despite playing other sets also. Barring obvious examples of +damage from sets like Shield and FA, I just don't see Regen as costing me anything meaningful in the area of damage dealing outside of going toe-to-toe with hard targets. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I agree to that. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
That's the thing. Regen does reward exceptional build and playstyle, but the rewards are psychological. Mechanically, there is no reward at the extreme high end.
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From the devs' point of view, the extreme high end is only one very small factor in their balance scheme, and Regen performs admirably in the lower-middle range. The Scrapper-Forumite point of view is different, heavily skewed towards the extreme high end of bleeding edge builds -- but as you can see, even here we have people who place a lot of value on the intangible reward of knowing that they, as players, have as much to do with their success as their builds do. So for good or ill, Regen is what it is, and it isn't likely to change. The complaints about Regen come from a small subset of a small subset of the player base, and those complaints concern a small subset of the builds in the game (heavily IOed level 50 builds). |
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Personally, Regen isn't my cup of tea, but that's not a bad thing. I think there's kind of an unconscious presumption that personal taste shouldn't be a huge factor in distinguishing melee defensive sets, because they're all designed to do basically the same thing. But why not? Every other AT offers absolutely monumental differences in playstyle from power set to power set (compare, say, a Force Field to a Storm Defender). When you really think about it, it's not only healthy that Regen should offer a distinct play style; from a design perspective, it's actually kind of impressive that Regen manages to do that without compromising too much on raw performance. I also think that Regen gets an unusual amount of criticism simply because the way the set plays now is different from how it used to play; if Regen had been introduced as-is, people would be much more inclined to shrug and move on if Regen's play style didn't suit them. Instead, people who've come back to the game over the years find that a character they already had plays in a wholly different way that's frankly unfixable, no matter how much influence or iTrial grinding they throw at it. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Interesting. I don't really play any of my Regens in what most people would consider "normal" situations - everything I do solo is pretty stressful. It's not because it's productive, but because I enjoy the challenge. So, running with IOs and Incarnate powers, I'm playing against level 54s on x6-x8, depending on what I'm fighting. One of my Regen Scrappers is DM/Regen/Soul, so I have no redraw and I have Shadow Meld. The other is DB/Regen/Nada, so no Shadow Meld and definite redraw. I feel I just have a rhythm down, where I fit heals in where it makes the least impact in my attack chain. Sure, sometimes my hand is forced and I have to pop something right then, rhythm or attack chain be damned, but it really doesn't bother me.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
In high stress solo play it is rare that I get off an entire Build Up without losing precious seconds to activating *something* unless I pre-empt with MoG then Build Up. I'm talking about stress tests though, not "normal" play. I just find that as soon as I push the envelope in high level play I look forward to MoG just to get those seconds of interrupted offense.
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And trust me, there's not much more stress to be found than playing a Regen on 54/x8. Especially with no Shadow Meld, you really need to win the DPS race against large spawns. Dual Blades is a big boon here, because Sweeping Strike backed by the recharge you give a high-end Regen is fantastic at clearing the minions out of even +3 spawns in a hurry (with some help from Typhoon's Edge).
So there's got to be a matter of taste in here somewhere, because it doesn't get much hairier than that, and it works for me to lose that bit of my DPS I need to heal with and whatnot without getting screwed because I lost the DPS race with the spawns. If I can manage that, it just doesn't seem like it could be that bad.
Do note, though, my earlier concession that Regen's not an optimal choice for inspirationless soloing of hard targets. The DPS lost to healing which most Regens are going to need to use frequently due to inability to hit the softcaps is definitely a part of that. That said, my DB/Regen clocked about 200 DPS against a Pylon. (No Lore used.) Nothing spectacular to be sure, but given I wasn't shooting for single-target DPS, I was relatively pleased.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Haven't seen this many threads about Regen in years