LF Feedback - Bots/FF Build - Too Defensive?
By
anonymoose,
Posted on: 2011-06-02 11:54 in Masterminds
Honestly, it looks like a very solid build for personal defense. Impressive, even. Not much is gonna take you down. What I'd ask is, what's your goal for this much survival? Are you going to run +4x8? Are you going to eat alphas in incarnate trial? I certainly don't think it's a bad build by any means, but I'm honestly curious what you want to do with it.
The one thing I would point out is that in slotting those full Blood Mandate sets, you lose a few things. Specifically, the pet uniques that give 5% defense and 10% resistances to your pets, plus the potency of the heals and shield of the protectors. I imagine this isn't a big issue if you're Tankerminding, but I like having my pets as sturdy as possible.
looks like you're trying to make a tankermind. I think that robot/ff has a LOT less to gain from tankerminding than someone with squishy, defenseless minions, and won't be as good at it as someone who has an aoe heal, but assuming you have your heart set on tankerminding I suppose this is pretty good.
As Spacepope said, the pet uniques are really awesome. You're giving up a LOT if you can't fit them in.
As for more damage, Red tomax doesn't have the hard numbers on Field Mastery powers, but as a rule of thumb no power pool attack is going to do better damage than your standard single-target rifle attacks, at least not with a cooldown short enough to spam, unless you slot for insane recharge rather than defense.
Yes, standard attacks get a bad rap, and they're dreadfully boring, but they recharge fast enough to do decent, reliable damage over time if you spam them. If I was going to tankermind, that's what I'd rely on.
If you go mace mastery rather than field mastery, the shield gives you defense to s/l rather than just resistance, and power boost should synergize very VERY well with the new aoe buffs that will be coming soon.
Or go mu mastery for electric fences, which might not have the best radius but it's the only hold that stops your bots from knocking held targets out of a burn patch.
Personal force feild is a terrible power. You can't even tankermind with it, because once you stop attacking you can't keep the aggro off your bots (who are now severely weakened because they don't get your supremacy buff). The only thing it's good for is not dying, and honestly dying isn't that big a deal even when you're leveling, much less at level 50. The closest thing I would recommend would be the scorpion shield from mace mastery.
Thanks for the responses.
I don't think I set out to make a tankermind per se, I was just just inspired by the standard "get capped" methodology, and labored over how to get those personal defenses shoved up high. I feel like I have lost some balance here, and that's why I started the thread.
I am going to rework the build to get those uniques into the pets and think I am going to set a goal that lets me trust the protector bots to cap me on ranged/aoe to allow for some flexibility to restore some balance to the build.
I will post a followup after I have played with it a bit =)
If you aren't aiming to be a dedicated tankermind, you don't need the presence pool at all. My 50 bots/ff doesn't have provoke, and doesn't miss it.
Mind you, I still get plenty of aggro when I'm running force bubble, and of course I can take it, but then when my assault bot lights off the fireworks and takes the aggro in the room away from me, that doesn't mean he's about to die like a squishy little thug arsonist with a deathwish. The assault bot is a TANK. I might lose a few of the smaller battle-bots in a tough fight, but with a well slotted aid other and repair for emergencies I can keep an assault bot alive through pretty much anything.
As promised, below is the new version of the build. Your feedback was super helpful...
- Switched Presence (dropping Provoke) to Teleport (picking up Recall Friend for utility and TP for some kind of travel power). This also allows some interesting things from Blessing of Zephyr
- Switched from Field Mastery to Mace Mastery. Scorp Shield gets me capped with protector bubble on me from every single "highest wins" duo of incoming damage except for psionic + melee, which shouldn't be that common, should it? Sadly, I *just* went full on hero, so have to swing myself around to do the arc.
- Switching to Mace also gets me power boost, which I will use to boost bubbles with the new 19.5 group version as well as boost heals when more oomph is needed.
- Pulse Rifle Burst is added to give some more offense for bosses or runners. I moved slotting around with Force Bolt to keep 6 pc bonus from Thunderstrike, but also snuck in build up proc from decimation.
- I worked in the two pet unqiues (def and res) and worked in some buffage to the protectors heals and bubbles.
- I keep 5 copies of 7.5% recharge and still retained the ability to heal myself, plus added the quality of life improvement in having a travel power in TP.
Thanks to your tips, I think this is a more balanced build. Any more feedback!?! =)
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Made a few small changes.
- I had two + KB Protection Mag 4's so I removed one, and got a hair more res into tough.
- Took two slots out of Scorpion shield as it was way over cap w/ protector bubble.
- This allowed me to get give dispersion bubble some love, placing the 6% accuracy in there, and also cutting end use.
I feel like this is a decent build, but 3 things would really put it over the edge.
1) I would like to get the end use to be better when Force Bubble is running. I feel like there may be some way to rejigger everything w/o losing the upsides of the build to get more recovery or cutting end use somehow.
2) I only have 37.5% global recharge. This isn't a recharge senstive character (I don't think), but it would be nice to get things like the pets back faster. If my AB dies I have over a minute to get another one going.
3) I have no DDR protection. I have no earthly clue how to get some in. I hate the idea of being capped to all these things, then just having it ripped right away.
Thanks for any input! =)
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As far as I know, there's unfortunately no good way to get DDR unless you're a set that has it naturally. It is frustrating, I agree.
Sadly there's no way to get "real" defense debuff resistance, but the next best thing is to just keep adding defense past the soft cap, so you aren't just clinging to it by a fingernail when you get debuffed. power boosted bubbles will do a great job protecting your minions, but not you, which is all the more reason to let them take the aggro.
I'd drop the healing IO from your protector bots and replace it with another defense. Actually, what I'd really do is what I did in my own build, which is forget about set bonuses, put in THREE defense, two damage, and a nucleolus hami-o for accuracy and damage. Moar defense! Wooo! The soft cap is JUST THE BEGINNING! 
In any case, the healing from the protector bots is nice when it happens, but Aid other and repair are much more important.
Looking further, I'd drop photon grenade and replace it with Web Envelope from mace mastery. If you can stop your enemies from running out of your assault bot's burn patches, that doesn't just add a little damage, it MULTIPLIES your best source of damage. Too bad Web Envelope doesn't stop knockback like Electric fences, but at least it has a bigger radius.
Also, if you're dropping provoke, now toughness is arguably a bit overkill. Kick is a joke (but you know that), and the mitigation from tough isn't much compared to bodyguard mode. Weave is the only thing you'd come close to actually missing, but in most cases a well slotted scorpion shield and bodyguard mode is good enough with your more-than-softcapped bots grabbing most of the aggro.
If you drop toughness, you can make room for assault. Yes the damage bonus is distinctly less than spectacular, but it applies to ALL your damage, and the rest of the party if you're not soloing. Vengeance is even better a party setting. And then there is POWER BOOSTED vengeance. Mwah ha ha ha!
Update:
- Web Envelope in - Photon Grenade out
- Changed Heal IO to Def IO for Protector
This caused some def to shuffle around, but not change too much. However, the increase from the proector bubble going from 9.375 to 11.25 helps smooth things out.
I would consider the swap of tough out for assault, but I would lose a place to park the 3% DEF Steadfast protection, and that would un-cap me.
I had earlier contemplated pulling out repulsion bomb for assault, but it seems like such a great soft control for crowds.
Heres the current version:
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1) cardiac|
Originally Posted by Kinetoa
1) I would like to get the end use to be better when Force Bubble is running. I feel like there may be some way to rejigger everything w/o losing the upsides of the build to get more recovery or cutting end use somehow. 2) I only have 37.5% global recharge. This isn't a recharge senstive character (I don't think), but it would be nice to get things like the pets back faster. If my AB dies I have over a minute to get another one going. |
2) Honestly, I go entire TFs without losing the assbot. He's a beast to start with, the protbots heal him, you're healing him, the protbots are shielding him, you're shielding him. If you're in a fight so nasty you lose assbot twice within a minute, I can't imagine you'll still be alive to resummon him.
My first 50 was a bots/bubbler. My build was greatly inferior to yours, and she was still ridiculously tough. Heck, I didn't even know about BG mode for the first few months and she was still ridiculously tough.
I will say that playing a bubbler can be boring. I used the KB powers a lot for herding etc, gave me something to do.
Some might say that /traps or /dark has just as much safety as /bubbles, way more offense, and a more active playstyle. Some might say /storm has almost as much safety, tons of offense, and even more fun KB powers.
Good luck with your bubbler, but don't be surprised if it gets dull.
Well it's your choice, and I'm sure having that much defense will be very playable. But just for the sake of argument, on my current farming build with electric fences and no scorpion shield, I'm not even TRYING to be soft-capped, but with bodyguard mode and my bots grabbing aggro I can plow through x8 crowds without even glancing at my health bar. The biggest problem I have setting the level higher than +0 isn't taking damage, but DOING enough damage to keep up the kill speed to get purple drops. For that case, assault is definitely more important than personal defense.
Maybe for the tougher level-shifted incarnate trials that I haven't gotten around to trying, personal defenses would be a lot more important. I'll probably polish up a build based on scorpion shield when I dive into that. But incarnate trials are TEAM content, and when things go pear-shaped for the entire team I'd rather have power boosted Vengeance than a 3% def IO.
Looks great. I've been thinking about trying a build like this. Does anyone know what kind of defensive numbers can you get for your bots with traps instead of ff?
Thanks for the insight. I am just going of arm chair mids right now, so I appreciate the experience based analysis.
As I actually get 50 and start playing it, I will get a feel for things better and will probably respec again at that time bases around my own experiences and what kind of content I am doing.
It sounds like I am going to be so survivable I will need to trade even more defense for offense to keep things fun. I don't think I can truly find that balance until I play it myself. =)
I REALY appreciate all the advice.
No problem, and good luck.
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I don't have the numbers right here, but /traps can softcap assault bot and the tier 1 pets. (The prot bots can't bubble themselves)|
Originally Posted by tgunlien
Looks great. I've been thinking about trying a build like this. Does anyone know what kind of defensive numbers can you get for your bots with traps instead of ff?
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Slot prot bots for defence
FFG slotted for defence
slot the unique pet +def IO
maneuvers slotted for defence
I think you can also softcap thugs/traps pets this way, or at least come close.
Put that together with bodyguard mode and a softcapped MM and you're pretty sturdy.
HOWEVER, with bots/ff you can aggro an entire room, go get a beer and when you get back the pets have killed everything. With bots/traps you have to resummon FFG periodically, and make sure you don't get out of range of the slowpoke FFG. I don't run SS in combat, and my experiments with teleporting around were "short lived" in every sense of the word.
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There is a nuance to this that might not be obvious: each protector bot can cast a bubble on the OTHER protector bot, so they aren't completely bubble-less. What they can't do is get TWO bubbles, one from each protector bot, like all the other bots get.|
Originally Posted by anonymoose
I don't have the numbers right here, but /traps can softcap assault bot and the tier 1 pets. (The prot bots can't bubble themselves)
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The mastermind also only gets one bubble, for no obvious reason beyond game balance.
The fact that most of your bots, particularly the assault bot, gets TWO protector bubbles is a very good reason to consider slotting three def IOs in protector bots. Also, in incarnate content the new soft cap is 60, not just 45, so it's no longer true that there is never a use for any more defense over 45.
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Originally Posted by anonymoose
HOWEVER, with bots/ff you can aggro an entire room, go get a beer and when you get back the pets have killed everything.
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I went back to re-evaluate this advice, and unless I am crazy, you have to take tough to take weave? (unless you take kick and boxing which makes no sense)|
Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
Well it's your choice, and I'm sure having that much defense will be very playable. But just for the sake of argument, on my current farming build with electric fences and no scorpion shield, I'm not even TRYING to be soft-capped, but with bodyguard mode and my bots grabbing aggro I can plow through x8 crowds without even glancing at my health bar.
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I was thinking of dropping repulsion bomb to get assault, and also getting two slots back, but it seems like a good soft control of crowds.
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Correct. If you have your heart set on weave, you might as well take tough along the way. But if you drop all three, that's three power slots to play with.|
Originally Posted by Kinetoa
I went back to re-evaluate this advice, and unless I am crazy, you have to take tough to take weave? (unless you take kick and boxing which makes no sense)
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Yes, dropping the entire fighting pool might very well mean you won't have 45 defense versus everything. Unless you're a tankermind with provoke, you don't really NEED it. Your better-defended bots will grab most of the aggro, and with bodyguard mode you can easily soak up any damage you do get hit with.
Also keep in mind that once you hit incarnate trials, the new soft cap is 60, making everything you sacrifice to get from 40 to 45 defense rather pointless. If you want to get anywhere close to the NEW soft-cap, forget about the fighting pool and set IOs and take a closer look at power boosted vengeance.
Well, I am only 40, and only on a mix of SO's with the IO's for various things where the level don't matter like +end chance etc, and I am already seeing what you are saying about being so over-the-top defensive, and seeking out more offense.
I am going to do some more fiddling!
Ok. I am branching out here. Working IO sets to keep def in decent range, but trying to majorly change damage and utility...
- Removed Fighting pool (/gulp!)
- No fighting toggles = better end margin
- Switched back to Field Mastery, but using temp inv as just a mule to hold +3% def
- Explosive Blast adds an AOE attack - slotted for damage
- Photon Grenade slotted for control, but primarily set to get 5pc
- Repulsion Bomb slotted for control
- Assault increases damage
- Vengeance added
- Hasten added with fitness opening up new pool
- Almost capped on Range and AOE with a prot bubble buff
Edit: I had missed hasten from new pool opening up.
Any thoughts?
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If you're going to drop mace mastery, do it for mu mastery. Use charged armor to hold the +3 def, and take electrifying fences for your ranged aoe attack. It's less direct damage, and the radius is a little disappointing, but it has the interesting property of granting immunity to knockback, so your bots can't knock your victims out of the burn patch, which is where your REAL damage is at. I'd slot it for maximum recharge and hold rather than damage, but it can take damage sets if you want to keep positron's blast.
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Originally Posted by Kinetoa
- Switched back to Field Mastery, but using temp inv as just a mule to hold +3% def
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Ok, getting close to finalized...
- Switched to Mu, slotted Electrifying Fences for max hold/end, while picking up the 5pc
- I don't like that repulsion bomb is only two slotted, but running out of slots, could maybe pull from Force Bubble, but I do like to run it, and its so end heavy
- I still wish I had a "real" damage AOE to lob
Code:
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Looking very aggressive now. Quite a change from where you started!
If you're looking for slots to steal, you could one-slot health and aid self. Actually you can drop aid self entirely, and just use green inspirations when you need a little health. They should drop like rain once you get the hang of the electric fences/burn patch tango. But I can't think of anything you really need to replace it with, so maybe keep it after all.
You could also shave a slot off force bolt. You'd lose the +7 accuracy set bonus, but none of your powers are hurting for accuracy. I'd take off the accuracy/damage IO. Force bolt has an innate accuracy bonus, and the damage isn't really worth buffing. Also, maybe swap acc/dam/endurance for acc/dam/recharge.
But these are all very minor quibbles. Great build!
Thanks for reading..
I have AOE and Ranged to 45+% w/o protectors, I have 60% to S/L resistance, 239% regen and Aid Self.
I am sure it's still tweakable, but I am generally happy with the survivabilty of this build, but I am worried that maybe it's overkill and I could slip in some offensive capability w/o losing some of the great survivability.
This is one of those deals where I worked it out based on Mids knowledge and only having a MM to 37, so I may have done something that makes sense "on paper" but not in game.
Any input from someone with real MM experience would be welcome!
Thanks!
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Technology Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Robotics
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Presence
Ancillary Pool: Field Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Battle Drones -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), BldM'dt-Acc(5), BldM'dt-Dmg(7)
Level 1: Force Bolt -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(7), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(11)
Level 2: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(13), LkGmblr-Rchg+(13)
Level 4: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+(19)
Level 6: Equip Robot -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(21), LkGmblr-Rchg+(21)
Level 10: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Protector Bots -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(23), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(23), BldM'dt-Acc(25), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), BldM'dt-Dmg(27)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(27)
Level 16: Aid Other -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Numna-Heal/Rchg(29), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal(31), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(31)
Level 18: Photon Grenade -- RzDz-Acc/Rchg(A), RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(33), RzDz-Acc/EndRdx(33), RzDz-Stun/Rng(33), RzDz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(34), RzDz-Immob%(34)
Level 20: Dispersion Bubble -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(34), GftotA-Def/Rchg(36), GftotA-EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(37)
Level 24: Provoke -- Zinger-Taunt/Rng(A), Zinger-Dam%(37), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(37), Zinger-Taunt(39), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(39), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(39)
Level 26: Assault Bot -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(40), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(40), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), BldM'dt-Acc(42), BldM'dt-Dmg(42)
Level 28: Aid Self -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(43), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Build%(45)
Level 32: Upgrade Robot -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Repulsion Bomb -- KinCrsh-Acc/KB(A), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB(46), KinCrsh-Dmg/KB(46)
Level 38: Force Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 41: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(43), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(48), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(48), RctvArm-EndRdx(50)
Level 44: Power Blast -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Explosive Blast -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Personal Force Field -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(15), P'Shift-EndMod(17), EndMod-I(17)