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Wow, Oedipus, this is outstanding. One small correction and an addition, however.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Glad that was helpful. Here is a more specific breakdown. It may be information overload, but it may help you understand more about how these powers work.:
Containment is a Controller's ability to do double damage. You can do this with most attacks against any enemy that is Slept, Held, Stunned, or Immobilized. Without Containment, most Controller attacks are not very damaging (I think actually the lowest damage in the game). With it, you essentially get the equivalent of a Critical Hit every attack. Bonus damage, -Resistance, and anything else that increase your attack strength also increase this damage, but damage procs do not. Note that even with Containment you are not necessarily doing huge amounts of damage (tho a small few Controller combos can). That's mainly because you don't usually get a whole lot of AoEs to throw at enemies. But the damage per attack is pretty decent. So you can buff, debuff, attack, buff, debuff, attack, and put out better numbers than you'd expect, because each attack is basically doing twice what it normally would, and even the buffs and debuffs are doubled. Mind Control traditionally has some trouble establishing Containment, where Fire Control traditionally does not. That's because Mind lacks easy access to an immobilize power. Mind relies a lot on Sleep powers instead, which means Containment breaks on the second hit. (The second hit and not the first, because if you are in the know, you queue two attacks back to back, and get Containment for both, even tho the first one technically breaks the sleep). The two main places this will affect you are when using AoEs and when fighting AVs (who typically lack immobilize protection). However, what you also need to know about Containment is that cage powers, of themselves, are not that great. They could be a lot worse, but essentially for most Control sets they take the place of what would be a very effective pet (in the case of Illusion) or an extra AoE control (in the case of Mind). So while Mind (and Illusion) both lack the immobilize powers, they pick up powers that shut enemies down. Which is "better" depends completely on the situation. To make things even more complicated, you benefit from Containment even if you are not the one who sets it. If you're a Mind Controller on a team and someone throws out cages, you actually do more damage per available tier of attack than a Dominator. And, depending on what your secondary is, possibly even MUCH more damage, due to your ability to buff your damage, debuff enemy resistance. The only thing is that, again, you are unlikely to have that many attacks at your disposal like the Dominator does, and definitely will not have a heavy hitting Tier 3 single target blast that many Dom sets get at level 38. Hopefully you are starting to see why this topic is so complicated. Overpower is a Controller's ability to get extra "free" magnitude on a power. Most standard mezzes are Mag 3. Controllers then get a 15% chance for an additional Mag 1 mezz to be layered on top of this. The reason you need to understand this is that bosses have Mag 3 protection. Mag 3 protection versus Mag 3 mezz means the mezz doesn't land (it doesn't vanish tho--it's still there, and can be stacked with other powers/a recast of the same power). If you roll the 15% chance, you mezz the boss on the first cast. If you've ever worked with a "Chance to Hold" proc, the idea is basically the same. All of the mezzes in Fire Control are Mag 3 with a 15% overpower chance. Mind Control, however, is weird. Mesmerize is actually Mag 3.5. This will sleep a standard boss in one shot, and even some Elite Bosses and AVs. Mass Hypnosis, meanwhile, is Mag 3 with a 50% chance for extra Mag. This will sleep bosses on the first shot 50% of the time. Moreover, it's also aggro-free, so if you have not yet attacked the group and need to do it, you can wait for the power to recharge and cast again. At high levels a basic build would have the power at about a 22 second recharge, power builds at around 12 or 13. There is something very important about Overpower you should understand. The Overpower mezz has a shorter duration than the "main" mag 3 mezz. So if you throw an AoE at a group, and the boss gets Overpowered, if you watch and wait for them to break out of the mezz, you will see the boss break out first, followed by the others sometime later. That's because the Overpower mezz faded prior to the main one, and with them no longer stacking above Mag 3 protection, the boss is now protected. Unlike Domination, Overpower is completely random. You have no control over when it happens. Domination is a power available to Dominators that adds a 100% chance to proc a Mag 3 mezz to many (but not all) control powers. Unlike Overpower, Domination is an actual click power that you activate when ready to use it. However, before you can click it, you need to build up your "Domination bar" by using attacks. Domination lasts for 90 seconds each time it is clicked. Domination also a few other perks. Activating it instantly refills your endurance bar, and gives you mezz protection for the duration its active. Most Control sets can Dominate in their main powers, and 1 or 2 of their "mainline" control AoEs. In contrast Mind Control can Dominate in almost all of its powers. Whether this is as good as it sounds is debatable. All of the Dominator Control sets get huge advantages while in Dominator mode, even if they aren't immediately obvious. Fire, Electric, and Ice, for example, all get much needed mezz protection to run their PBAoE toggles unmolested. And any Dominator can one-shot hold a standard boss while in Domination mode. In any case, Mind Dominators are able to use Domination to stack confusion and sleep on archvillains without drawing their aggro. This can be very effective, even if its also somewhat unnecessary outside of some very specific end game content. The technique also does not appear to be particularly valuable in the newer Task Forces and upcoming raids. But if soloing is your gig, it may be better for you. Note that the in-game description of Domination claims it also "doubles the duration of most of your mezzes." This is not exactly correct. What it actually does is mimic Overpower, except with a 100% chance to proc a mag 3 mezz that is 50% longer than (rather than slightly shorter than) the main mezz. This basically means that like with Overpower, Dominated bosses will break out of the mezz faster than lieutenants and minions. The way it works out is that the bosses break out of the power at about the same time minions and lts would have if the cast had been made without Domination active. A perma-dom is a Dominator with a lot of global recharge bonuses, which allow him or her to "stack" Domination on itself. When you have enough recharge to do this, it means you are able to more less permanently stay in Domination mode most of the time. Basically, what happens is your Domination icon becomes active again when you are still running the previous Domination cycle. You are able to click it and instantly refill your endurance bar and reset the timer on Domination. In other words, perma-doms do not have to refill their Domination bar by attacking, it just stays at full and you get the benefits long term. However, perma-Dom is kind of a misnomer. You have to be vigilant enough to click the power every time it recharges. If you forget, and the previous cast expires, your bar crashes insantly to zero again and you have to rebuild it up again by attacking. You also lose your Dom bar if you die. You CAN maintain it outside of missions, but you have to remember to click the power constantly to keep resetting the cycle. At a minimum this is one click every minute and a half, but thats cutting it close. Remember: one missed click and it drops on you. (It has a special way of liking to do just after you aggro hordes of Rikti psi mages.  ) This is also why enemies with -Recharge powers are the absolute bane of the Dominator AT.If your Dom bar does crash, all of your mezzes are mezz 3, and you have no extra mezz protection until you rebuild the bar, the power recharges, and you click the power again. It rebuilds very fast on full teams (after about 10 attacks) and quite a bit more slowly solo. A perma-dom on a full team can usually pop 10 attacks and hit Domination immediately, where a non-perma or someone debuffed out of perma may find himself with a refilled bar but the power not yet being recharged enough to click. As you level up, you will spend a good bit of time in the un-dom state, because perma-doms are very unusual prior to level 50. Even though Domination is a power, you cannot slot it directly. Only global bonuses from IOs or powers (e.g. Hasten) affect it. Characters who will never see IOs will never be perma-doms, so comparisons between Controllers and Dominators are that much more sticky. The good news that both ATs are awesome in their own right. |
Small correction: The standard "Overpower" chance is 20%, not 15%. It applies to all Controller Single Target Holds, and most other single target and AoE controls -- The main exceptions are that the AoE Immobilize powers (and Mind's Mass Hypnosis, which you noted) generally have a 50% chance to overpower, and any power that activates through a pet or pseudopet (like Spectral Terror, Volcanic Gasses or Carrion Creepers) has different rules.
The Addition: Controller powers that damage through a pet or pseudopet do NOT get Containment. Secondary Powers that do damage directly (Gale, Force Bolt, Acid Arrow) DO get containment with three exceptions . . . FF's Repulsion Bomb and the Energy Damage against electronics for EM Pulse from Rad and Trick Arrow. Notice that these damage powers that get Containment do very little damage. The secondary powers that do significant damage (Oil Slick Arrow, Tornado, Lightning Storm, Fallout) are Pseudopets, so they do not get Containment.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Wow, Oedipus, this is outstanding. One small correction and an addition, however.
Small correction: The standard "Overpower" chance is 20%, not 15%. It applies to all Controller Single Target Holds, and most other single target and AoE controls -- The main exceptions are that the AoE Immobilize powers (and Mind's Mass Hypnosis, which you noted) generally have a 50% chance to overpower, and any power that activates through a pet or pseudopet (like Spectral Terror, Volcanic Gasses or Carrion Creepers) has different rules. The Addition: Controller powers that damage through a pet or pseudopet do NOT get Containment. Secondary Powers that do damage directly (Gale, Force Bolt, Acid Arrow) DO get containment with three exceptions . . . FF's Repulsion Bomb and the Energy Damage against electronics for EM Pulse from Rad and Trick Arrow. Notice that these damage powers that get Containment do very little damage. The secondary powers that do significant damage (Oil Slick Arrow, Tornado, Lightning Storm, Fallout) are Pseudopets, so they do not get Containment. |
Thanks, it helps to try to write things when I'm avoiding doing laundry. Thanks for the corrections. I actually never realized that the AoE immobs had a 50% overpower chance. There's actually a kind of pattern with that I never knew about til now: with the exception of Illusion, the Controller version of all Control sets features one AoE with a 50% overpower chance, and one single target that will nab a boss in one shot.
I didn't add the info about containment or psuedopets since people reading this thread can just read your note about it here. Thanks for clarifying that though. Overpower and Domination are actually weird across many of the sets; its not just psuedopets that don't get Overpower or Dominate procs, but auras (Arctic Air) or chain powers (Synaptic Overload, except on first target) as well.
One particular point I wanted to drive home is just because Mind Control gets the word "Domination" on the screen a lot doesn't mean it benefits from Domination mode that much more than other sets. Ice or Fire Control with built in mezz protection is pretty sick. And Plant Control with a cone confuse that nabs bosses instantly is pretty much cheat mode.
As Fire/, you will have much better damage through containment, hotfeet and imps, be able to neutralize KB and prevent enemies running out of sleet with the immobilize, and the control is only slightly worse than Mind. Flashfire recharges faster than alternating both Total Dom and Mass Confuse, and you have Cinders as a backup.
Mind offers some unique advantages, like aggroless controls, but this needs to be weighed against the solid, consistent damage advantage and the AoE hard control available for every spawn that fire provides.
Terror1 is right that Mind only truly shines on Dominators, who 1) are not dependent on Containment for damage, and 2) can stack incredible magnitudes of control with Domination, which lets them control everything from all-boss spawns to AVs with purple triangles up.
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And Seeds of Confusion recharges faster than both and is twice as good as Flashfire. I guess all sets that aren't Plant suck, even if they aren't remotely comparable in any fashion, and have access to the strongest single target mezz in the game, and are the only Control set that breaks the rules about mezzing a boss in one shot.| Flashfire recharges faster than alternating both Total Dom and Mass Confuse, and you have Cinders as a backup. |
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| Terror1 is right that Mind only truly shines on Dominators, who 1) are not dependent on Containment for damage, and 2) can stack incredible magnitudes of control with Domination, which lets them control everything from all-boss spawns to AVs with purple triangles up. |
will never shine outside farms, what to do, what to do. :P
P.S. Can we please resurrect the "Mass Confusion sucks because Seeds of Confusion exists" threads? I've missed watching people fail that hard.
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Plant is one of the top-tier control sets, along with Illusion and Fire, and this is definitely an advantage. But since flashfire is already up every spawn, the advantage isn't as big as Fire vs Mind.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
And Seeds of Confusion recharges faster than both and is twice as good as Flashfire.
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| This is true of ALL Dominators. |
There are sets for which the reverse is true. Illusion is great on controllers but it would never work as a dominator set since it doesn't build domination. Some powersets are more suited to the strengths of certain ATs than others.
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I don't believe in "top tier" sets. With the exception of Gravity, they are all very workable. I used to be more skeptical about Ice Control, but after seeing what alpha slots have done for slotting options, even that set has entered the top ranks. |
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Plant is one of the top-tier control sets, along with Illusion and Fire, and this is definitely an advantage. But since flashfire is already up every spawn, the advantage isn't as big as Fire vs Mind.
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| Part of what I'm trying to say is that going from controller to dominator on a Mind is a much bigger difference than, e.g. on Fire. The huge magnitudes and durations amplify the advantages of things like AoE sleeps and aggroless controls into powers that manhandle content. The dominator that soloed MoLRSF was a Mind/Fire - and did it by confusing AVs. That's not something that either a plant or fire could do, whatever the AT. |
I also disagree with you about the difference between Fire Control and Fire Domination. There is an absolutely huge difference. Same thing with Ice Control. And Plant. And all of the sets except maybe Gravity. Once you can leap into a group of enemies with no preparation whatsoever and reasonably expect to mezz all the bosses and survive their counter mezzes, the world completely changes. My Ice Dominator recently soloed the entire platform full of Rikti surrounding the Honoree during the LGTF in less than 10 minutes while the other 7 members of my team were off at the other end of the platform. Do you think this is something the average Ice Controller does with regularity?
Heck, here's a picture of why no one should ever play Ice Control on a Controller again for those who are inclined to such things:
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| There are sets for which the reverse is true. Illusion is great on controllers but it would never work as a dominator set since it doesn't build domination. Some powersets are more suited to the strengths of certain ATs than others. |
I think you're getting a bit emotional. I don't see this as a 'dominators > controllers' discussion, only that Mind's strengths tend to work especially well with Dominators' and its weaknesses are especially noticeable on Controllers.
To say that all sets are 'workable' is politically correct, but meaningless. All powersets are 'workable' if you have sufficiently low standards, spend enough, or have a high enough tolerance for frustration. Some powersets are better overall than others (if not, there would be no balance changes, ever). There's nothing wrong with playing powersets that aren't the most optimal or capable, but not giving people the facts when they ask for advice is dishonest.
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Yes clearly my low standards and desire to avoid fun are the issue.| All powersets are 'workable' if you have sufficiently low standards, spend enough, or have a high enough tolerance for frustration. |
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| There's nothing wrong with playing powersets that aren't the most optimal or capable, but not giving people the facts when they ask for advice is dishonest. |
Ok.
Comparing the difference between a mind dom and a mind controller to a fire dom and a fire controller is definitely misleading, in my opinion. Mind doms get more duration and stronger mezzes, lose nothing. Fire doms get less damage (no containment for Hotfeet, RoF and Char) and that damage isn't as significant because the secondary is damage oriented (a lower % of your overall output). Mez protection helps significantly, yes, and controllers can get IW - which I swear by on a fire/cold, don't really need anything else from other epics on that combo.
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On the contrary, illusion on doms would be so good I'm afraid we'd hardly see other powersets played, much like when Shield scrappers had a bugged shield charge. You build Domination with your secondary attacks first and foremost so I really can't agree with your concern ; besides, Illusion has SW, Blind and Deceive as fastrecharging controls. The ability to deal close to blaster damage with PA protecting you is rather valuable ; you name yourself mind/fire as a great combo to do solo feats, illusion/fire would be the next step up from that.
| Illusion is great on controllers but it would never work as a dominator set since it doesn't build domination. Some powersets are more suited to the strengths of certain ATs than others. |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Comparing the difference between a mind dom and a mind controller to a fire dom and a fire controller is definitely misleading, in my opinion. Mind doms get more duration and stronger mezzes, lose nothing. Fire doms get less damage (no containment for Hotfeet, RoF and Char) and that damage isn't as significant because the secondary is damage oriented (a lower % of your overall output). Mez protection helps significantly, yes, and controllers can get IW - which I swear by on a fire/cold, don't really need anything else from other epics on that combo.
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I understand where this opinion comes from--Mind Dominators ARE cool. The flip side argument, though, that I'm only half devoted to, is that Mind Dominators waste their Domination ability on Sleeps and Fears while the AoE powers that really matter are on a 240 second recharge (whittled to about 60-70 seconds on most builds). Plant, Earth, and Fire can mezz an entire spawn every 12-20 seconds. This is why, even though I have 2 Mind Dominator characters, I don't play them much. Some people might enjoy it more, but my other Dominators feel much stronger to me. I still enjoy the set in any case.
Part of this is probably my viewpoint on soloing in general. The ability to perma confuse an AV is kind of "whatever" to me considering that if you cared to, you could just bring a second Mind Controller or Illusion Controller and buff each other beyond what the Dominator could do. I do not know where the idea that whatever can solo a particular Task Force is the "best." I sometimes wonder whether people believe that because a stone wheel will roll down a hill on its own that it outperforms a Ferrari made of specialized parts.
P.S. I'm not sure whether the AV version of Manticore in the AE differs significantly from the one in the main game, but my Mind Controller was able to confuse him for 5 minutes straight. This version of him was "only" level 50, and the troller is 51, so I had a level advantage. I was not able to do this to him when I leveled the AV up to 54, but am positive a second Mind or Illusion troller there would have put me over the threshold. I couldn't have "soloed" him in either situation, but I don't personally think a character unable to solo AVs is worthless.
Maybe this was answered during the discussions above, but I didn't see it.
On the road to 50, instead of an end-game build, does Mind on Controllers outshine Mind on Dominators?
I see the case the Mind doms are making come from having perma-dom. But what happens, as you're levelling up, when you're trying to fill your Domination bar? Do you notice the decrease in mag/mezz duration? Or is it a moot point because you can kill them faster because of your /assault set?
My mind/cold is up to lvl 12 (didn't get much playtime over the weekend), but I noticed I completely suck at handling large spawns at this point. I can juggle three or so baddies but after that, well, if i'm on a team the spawn is dead at this point. Solo I can take on a single purple boss with no problem. I was hit ONCE when I skipped confusing him in one of the ST attack chain cycles. I am putting off the AoE sleep for another couple of levels. It's kind of pointless to sleep them if they will be woken up by the AoE volleys on a team. Right now I focused on my own ST attack chain plus the two ally shields + hasten.
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Originally Posted by Asha'man
Maybe this was answered during the discussions above, but I didn't see it.
On the road to 50, instead of an end-game build, does Mind on Controllers outshine Mind on Dominators? I see the case the Mind doms are making come from having perma-dom. But what happens, as you're levelling up, when you're trying to fill your Domination bar? Do you notice the decrease in mag/mezz duration? Or is it a moot point because you can kill them faster because of your /assault set? My mind/cold is up to lvl 12 (didn't get much playtime over the weekend), but I noticed I completely suck at handling large spawns at this point. I can juggle three or so baddies but after that, well, if i'm on a team the spawn is dead at this point. Solo I can take on a single purple boss with no problem. I was hit ONCE when I skipped confusing him in one of the ST attack chain cycles. I am putting off the AoE sleep for another couple of levels. It's kind of pointless to sleep them if they will be woken up by the AoE volleys on a team. Right now I focused on my own ST attack chain plus the two ally shields + hasten. |
You will lose some ground against other sets in AoE control early on on teams--true of both Mind Controllers and Dominators. Neither set really has major advantages over the other leveling up. The Controller is better team support, Dominator better damage (mostly single target and maybe some cone damage).
To the extent that Dominators have an advantage in this level range, its due to the ability to solo with Mass Hypnosis. Sleep the group, pick off enemies one by one. Controllers can do this too, slower than a Mind Dom, faster than most Controllers. The damage issue with Containment only arrives later for Mind Controllers, applying mainly to AoE. Major, huge damage AoEs don't show up for either AT until they reach their epic sets.
You should plan to take Mass Hyp early on either AT, even if you team a lot. Because it's aggroless there's pretty much no penalty to throwing it around like it's free (its not like you'll pull a new group). It's a great way to frustrate enemies using toggle powers, e.g. the Circle of Thorns with Dispersion Bubble (or you can confuse them and borrow the bubble effect for your team). Early on, your job as a Mind troller is very similar to an Illusion troller; identify the bad guys to Confuse, and harrass them. Later, Illusion and Mind split directions, with Mind going very AoE heavy (2 "soft-ish" controls, 2 hard-ish) and Illusion going for pets.
In any case, once you are comfortable with it, you may begin to lose the need to "wait for the tank." You can confuse and (to a lesser extent) sleep things before he or she jumps in--just time it so the enemies don't do tooo much damage to each other before someone engages them. If you make a mistake, you may be able to sleep them for the time being. This becomes really great later when you get Mass Confusion and can race just ahead of where the tank is going, and pop the enemies discreetly as he or she jumps in. Unlike a Dominator you will probably not catch all of the bosses in one shot. However, unlike any other Controller with an AoE confuse, you have a single target Confuse you can use to fill in the gaps. This is why I said earlier that at least in terms of AoE, Mind Dominators are not that far ahead of Controllers. I rolled my Mind Dominator a year or so after the Controller expecting him to replace the Controller, but that didn't happen, because Dominators are not Controllers, and Mind Control is not really interchangeable with another Controller set.
P.S. as a /Cold Dominator, you should probably plan to take Super Speed with Arctic Fog. Arctic Fog does not suppress when you attack, so you will always have 35ft stealth, and when you are not attacking, you are invisible. The lack of the extra stealth was one of the major issues that annoyed me on the Dominator--you can use the Stealth proc, but it suppresses on damage to you rather than damage you cause. Example: any crystals on CoT maps, enemy with a damage aura you run past, or AoE you get caught in if a teammate follows behind you and gets AoEd. Heat Loss meanwhile means with IOs Super Speed can be left on 24/7--and as a power was a way bigger deal prior to Cardiacs and inherent Stamina, because my Mind troller used to get 3 extra power picks over the Dominator and much better defense values due to his ability to skip the Fitness pool. This is what I was talking about way earlier in the thread when I said that /Cold has lost some comparative value for me, though its still great from bring down big bads on a team.
In the interest of disclosure, I have considered rerolling the Mind/Cold troller as a Mind/Rad. (The character is the "Cold Reader" character in my banner below.) I like Radiation a bit more than Cold for Mind trollers after the changes I listed above, but I'm also tired of looking at people in those ugly cold shields.
The order of powers is Power Boost, Mass Confusion, Total Domination, Sleet, AoEs. I can only Total Dom (the source of Containment in this scenario) once every 62 seconds. So for that reason I always have the mission set to x8 players, so after the AoEs kill off most of the group, I can spend 30 seconds or so killing the remaining few. A Controller with something other than Cold, like say a Rad or TA, could just sleep the group and debuff at leisure.
My Mind/Icy Dominator kills stuff a lot faster but doesn't bring the buff/debuffs to down big enemies, so he's not as popular for end game like Apex (though by no means poor). You might expect him to also bring much more AoE damage but the answer is "not really." Some Dominators secondaries + APPs are indeed pretty good at AoE, but by no means are all Dominators great at it across the board. Some of them are single target specialists instead.
Hopefully one day I'll figure out what free program I can use that allows videos longer than 30 seconds. Then I'd show you how to get around limitations on some of the other "low" damage sets, like Ice and Elec Control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ3s_wQz26Q
"Mental Cryogenics", a victim of a lab experiment gone terribly wrong was created this morning. There was some "Oops"..followed by lots of boom...and fire, AAaargh!...my head burns....ooh, I have super powers...
You know, typical super hero business. :-)
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