1. Regeneration from set bonuses is usually a very insignificant portion of self-healing. Going up or down 10%/s will yield no noticeable difference. On a Fiery Aura character, your self-heal is a major amount of HP/s.
Defense multiplies your survivability, and healing effectiveness.
Let's say you have 10% defense and heal 10 HP/s on average. Critters doing 100 DPS will hit you 40% of the time, and you will take 40 DPS. After healing, your health is still going down 30 HP/s.
Now let's say you have 20% defense and still heal for 10 HP/s. Critters doing 100 DPS will now hit you 30% of the time and you will take 30 DPS. After healing, your health goes down 20 HP/s.
Let's say you manage to get to 40% defense. Critters doing 100 DPS will hit you for 10 HP/s. After healing, you effectively take no damage.
It would be worth it to get Weave, but it would be much better to post a build and get to the soft cap for defense. A Fire Tanker can survive a lot if you stack enough defense in the right areas. It all depends on what your goals are for the character, though. If you just want to farm fire critters, you don't need amazing defenses. If you want to tank every TF in the game, it is possible to get enough defense to do that.
2. I take very few attacks on my tankers. I slot it and use the level 1 attack as I would any other attack.
2. The first-tier attack is typically fast-recharging. That means it's usually available and although slows affect it proportionately just as much, the net effect in seconds is less. Furthermore, procs are more useful in fast-recycling attacks -- more chances to proc. I like to slot mine with either a set that gives a good bonus (like a defense bonus, for example) and/or a proc. In some cases both -- I have a character with Jab slotted with Kinetic Combats AND the Hecatomb purple proc. AND it bruises! Very nice.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Thanks guys. I will post my build later on to get more specific advice.
Regarding my goals...I did just get into TF's, so I guess that is what I'm planning to do. But doing TF's doesn't necessarily mean having to solo them. I definitely don't expect to be able to go AFK in an AV fight, like some tanks probably can. It's also important to note that I'm on a budget, so at best, I can maybe afford ONE purple set....if that. It would probably be hecatomb for KoB.
But anyway, from the replies I've gathered that the 15-18% defense WOULD be more valuable than the regen and recharge, correct? So I will plan to rebuild in the near future.
Ok here's my build right now.
Code:
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And this is what I was planning on changing it to.
Code:
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Thoughts?
If this is for PvP, ignore my comments as I know nothing about it and don't care for it.
You don't have much recharge bonus, so you won't be doing above-average damage. You don't have much defense, so you won't be a great main tank for TFs. The few regeneration bonuses that you do have aren't really making much of a difference. After taking your enhancements out of Health, the build dropped from 30HP/s to 20HP/s, which could save you a lot of slots for something more useful. For comparison, Healing Flames is over 60HP/s and you don't even have it slotted with level 50 IOs.
Your build could use a lot of improvement. You could be getting set bonuses in a lot of powers instead of frankenslotting them. You may like procs, but your job as a main tank is to survive and hold aggro. Any damage you do is extra. If you want a solo farming build, it could also be done a lot better. Figure out what type of build you want and what you want to do with your character. If you want me to make a build for you, PM me and we can figure something out.
Don't forget to set the Alpha boost to Spiritual Core Paragon. Builds are for planning what you want, and I assume you will want to get the best Alpha boost you can instead of sitting at the tier 3 one.
Quote:
My foot stomp (with 3 procs) recharges in 5 seconds, and burn and KoB in 6. Is that really just average?|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
You don't have much recharge bonus, so you won't be doing above-average damage.
|
I got your point about regen. I'll try ignoring it for the most part.
Btw the IO levels didn't mean anything. I didn't even realize they were there hehe. In reality I have lvl 50's anywhere it's possible.
Quote:
Your Foot Stomp recharges in 9 seconds with the proc off. You have to click that green circle on the right side of Foot Stomp to turn off the proc effect. It is a great proc, but it won't happen every time and it doesn't stack with itself. View your powers as if the proc didn't happen.
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
My foot stomp (with 3 procs) recharges in 5 seconds, and burn and KoB in 6. Is that really just average?
I got your point about regen. I'll try ignoring it for the most part. Btw the IO levels didn't mean anything. I didn't even realize they were there hehe. In reality I have lvl 50's anywhere it's possible. |
Ah, thanks! But with it off, I am still seeing a 6.9 recharge on FS. Where are you getting 9?
When I play, I admit I never actually timed it, but my gereral feeling is that it's closer to 5 than it is to 10. Anyway, I'm in the process of coming up with another build 
I looked at it with Hasten off because your build had it off when I imported it. You also have a lot of time waiting for Hasten to recharge where the cooldown on Foot Stomp will be 9 seconds.
I got a small follow-up question. If I can end up with slightly more defense (3-4%) for one position, compared to the other two...which should it be? I can make a theoretical case for all 3, but is there one that's generally considered the most important positional for a tanker?
Melee would seem like an obvious choice, but at the same time, in melee my foot stomp adds quite a lot of survivability. It's the ranged mobs that I have no protection from. So I don't know...
I prefer to go for the soft cap, or 32.5% in all positions. Some people are happy with a heavy concentration in one area and vulnerabilities in other areas.
Getting 3-4% defense isn't going to make a noticeable difference if you aren't near 45% or 32.5%.
Ok thanks!
I decided it's not worth it to get my defense really high at the expense of a lot of other things. Gimping the actual usefulness of certain powers just to get more global stats is not my thing, so I am probably going to settle for about 22-26% to all positions.
Supermax,
I am not an end-all, know-all expert at COH, but my favorite toon for the last couple of years has been my Fire/SS tank. With a lot of study and trail and error over they years, I have put together a very strong build (although not cheap) that is an absolute blast to play. It's based around S/L/Melee defense followed closely by recharge rate to keep Rage going as well has for the healing flames/burn/footstomp powers. Here are some highlights:
- 41% S/L defense, 35.8% melee Defense. Yup, he can tank almost anything
- +138.8% recharge with hasten. healing flames is up every 12 seconds, Footstomp every 6 seconds and burn every 7 seconds.
- Double raged more often than not for serious Scranking firepower/aoe damage
- Has main tanked Recluse (with an Emp for support - come on, there's only so much you can do afterall he IS still a fire tank...)
There are ZERO purples in my build - in order to get the defense I was looking for in order to tank TFs, I stuck with primarily orange IOs. If you're not so much interested in end-game tanking, you can skip some of the +def sets and look for more recharge, Acc, Damage, etc. You an easily swap out the IOs in Hurl for purples if money is no object and further improve the build. If you would prefer, you can also focus more on melee defense than S/L defense and the build will be much cheaper as you can 6-slot touch of deaths in some attacks rather than deal with the prices of 4-slotted Kinetic Combats at the moment.
In closing, this toon is a blast to solo with due to his high damage and great survivability, but also has the survivability to tank about anything in the game. Take from the build what you will, maybe it will help create some ideas for your own toon.
Code:
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Quote:
Thank you for posting your build. I do have a question about this. Do you really feel that the S/L defense is more valuable than the positionals? And how much do you get hit by AoE's and ranged attacks?
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Originally Posted by Medyc
- 41% S/L defense, 35.8% melee Defense.
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Quote:
S/L is the most common damage type, so S/L defense covers about 90% of all attacks in the game. If the Incarnate content continues with the same critters, more tanks will have to consider soft capping Energy defense.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
Thank you for posting your build. I do have a question about this. Do you really feel that the S/L defense is more valuable than the positionals? And how much do you get hit by AoE's and ranged attacks?
|
Quote:
Two things:|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Thank you for posting your build. I do have a question about this. Do you really feel that the S/L defense is more valuable than the positionals? And how much do you get hit by AoE's and ranged attacks?
|
Trying to slot for positionals on a build that has no positional defenses, let alone inherent defenses, is generally a fools errand.
S/L is the most common type of attack. You build for that, you're fine for most of the game. And the rest, you have a team to help you out.
Ok thanks a lot guys. Looks like I have some more thinking to do.
Originally I slotted for positional (melee) defense thinking that I would be in the middle of a group of mobs anyways. In general, the reasoning is sound and as I mentioned it is much cheaper to slot that way than for S/L defense (which every toon out there is looking to get). However, some mobs simply dont have a melee attack (rikti drones, for example) and in large enough mobs enemies would continue to use ranged attacks as the cluster of mobs would keep them from closing far enough to use melee attacks. Slotting for S/L still grants very good melee defense agsint mobs without a S/L component in their attacks (36% is nothing to sneeze at) but also provides 41% defense to MOST ranged attacks as well. In gerenal, its simply more versatile, covering the majority of ranged and melee attacks without giving up too much melee positional defense for those rare mobs that dont have a lethal or smashing component in their melee attacks. Make sense?
Yes that makes a lot of sense, thanks. I will have to look at the prices of the S/L sets. Guess it all depends on that, since I'm kind of on a budget.
Take a look at this one I just threw together. If the S/L def isn't high enough, you can replace all the impervium armors with reactive armors. I just like having a lot of endurance all the time.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
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Level 1: Fire Shield ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(45)
Level 1: Jab KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Hectmb-Dam%(9), Zinger-Dam%(9)
Level 2: Healing Flames Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Numna-Heal(11)
Level 4: Haymaker KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(13), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(13), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(15), Mocking-Rchg(17)
Level 6: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Zephyr-ResKB(17)
Level 8: Consume P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(21), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(21)
Level 10: Super Jump Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel(43)
Level 12: Plasma Shield ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(19), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(43), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 14: Blazing Aura Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(23), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Sciroc-Dam%(27), Oblit-%Dam(27)
Level 16: Taunt Mocking-Taunt/Rng(A), Mocking-Taunt(23), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(34), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(36), Mocking-Rchg(36), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 18: Burn Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 20: Knockout Blow KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(29), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(29), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mocking-Rchg(31), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(31)
Level 22: Kick Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(39), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 28: Rage Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(37), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 30: Weave LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Def(37)
Level 32: Rise of the Phoenix RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 35: Maneuvers LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(40), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 38: Foot Stomp Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-%Dam(40), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(42)
Level 41: Char RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Melt Armor RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Fire Ball Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50)
Level 49: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Boost
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(45)
Level 2: Hurdle Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(19), P'Shift-End%(50)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
6% DamageBuff(Smashing)
6% DamageBuff(Lethal)
6% DamageBuff(Fire)
6% DamageBuff(Cold)
6% DamageBuff(Energy)
6% DamageBuff(Negative)
6% DamageBuff(Toxic)
6% DamageBuff(Psionic)
18.31% Defense(Melee)
22.38% Defense(Smashing)
22.38% Defense(Lethal)
7.688% Defense(Fire)
7.688% Defense(Cold)
3.625% Defense(Energy)
3.625% Defense(Negative)
8.625% Defense(Psionic)
4.25% Defense(Ranged)
7.688% Defense(AoE)
12.15% Max End
36% Enhancement(Accuracy)
46.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
10% FlySpeed
231.92 HP (12.38%) HitPoints
10% JumpHeight
10% JumpSpeed
Knockback (Mag -8)
Knockup (Mag -8)
MezResist(Held) 2.75%
MezResist(Immobilize) 8.25%
MezResist(Stun) 4.4%
10% (0.167 End/sec) Recovery
42% (3.286 HP/sec) Regeneration
1.575% Resistance(Fire)
1.575% Resistance(Cold)
3.125% Resistance(Negative)
10% RunSpeed
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Prices on Kinetic Combats are through the roof - substitute those out with Smashing Haymakers until you have more funds, then swap in complete sets of Kinetic Combats as you can. The smashing haymakers are dirt cheap (like 100,000 instead of 100,000,000) but only provide half the S/L defense bonus. On a budget, they are your best bet.
Well I respecced over the weekend, and I'm definitely happier with the build. I came up with 38% melee and 33% S/L defense. I really didn't want to sacrifice anything to get the defense, and in the end I didn't. The build is better across the board in almost everything. The only noticeable negative thing is that HF heals for about 30 points less. Other than that, same damage, same recharge, same res....but along with being 1 purple away from 45%.
Anyway, thanks again for all the advice!
Quote:
In most content, all of the defense from 32.5% to 38% is wasted when you use that purple. Those are set bonuses that you could have used to increase defense in other areas, or improve survivability in another way, or increase global recharge.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Well I respecced over the weekend, and I'm definitely happier with the build. I came up with 38% melee and 33% S/L defense. I really didn't want to sacrifice anything to get the defense, and in the end I didn't. The build is better across the board in almost everything. The only noticeable negative thing is that HF heals for about 30 points less. Other than that, same damage, same recharge, same res....but along with being 1 purple away from 45%.
Anyway, thanks again for all the advice! |
You also left yourself vulnerable to incarnate content. Most of it is ranged energy damage, so far. That doesn't look like it will change in I20.
Having both S/L defense and Melee defense high doesn't do you much good because most melee attacks have S/L damage in them. You could have increased ranged defense, or E/N defense if you went for 32.5% in one category and optimized your set bonuses.
Eh...I'm happy with my build. Fact is, I don't usually bother with having a purple active. So the 38% does help me more than 32.5%. I use purples only in emergencies.
Anyway, I haven't had trouble tanking anything so far other than hamidon, and I think it's pretty much broken anyway, so everybody has trouble with it.
I'm really happy with my build, but I was wondering about a couple general ideas. Can't post the build right now, but it's not really needed for these questions anyway.
1. Right now I have a build with tough but no weave. No noticeable defense of any kind, other than about 3% from combat jumping. My global recharge is around 30%. I do also have the 3rd tier Spiritual alpha slotted. The question is, would it be worth it to add weave (and then also the steadfast unique) to the build, at the expense of a little global recharge and regen? I'd have maybe 5% less recharge, about 10% less regen, but my defense would go to 15-18%, from 3%. Is that a level of defense that would make a noticeable difference for me, or should I not bother? Essentially, is Weave worth it for a tank if that is the only defense he'll have?
2. How do most tanks slot their level 1 attack that does Bruising? Right now I just have it unslotted and use it just as a debuff on hard targets. But I was thinking of actually putting slots in it (as many procs as I can fit), and making it part of the attack chain as an actual attack. Would this be worth it? It's something I'd need to do to fit Weave in the build (by dropping laser beam eyes).