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Mid's unfortunately by default shows you the total defense while Hide is engaged. The majority of Hide's defense value is actually suppressed as soon as you attack, are damaged, or click a mission object, including that huge chunk of AoE defense. What's left is a mere 1.875% base defense(all). Slotting this to the ED limit for defense gains you only about another 1% defense(all) while unhidden during combat. This is why most people don't bother slotting it for much, if any, defense.|
Originally Posted by Areimus
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By the way, I noticed something interesting when I had 4 slots in Hide and 1 in Danger sense vs. 1 slot in Hide and 4 slots in Danger Sense. One common trend I had noticed is that people were only putting 1 slot into Hide and leaving it at that. My observations show that putting 4 slots into Danger Sense only increases Ranged Defense by 3.4% while losing out on the gains listed below. |
Regarding Danger Sense... I don't see what you mean by only adding 3.4% defense. Danger Sense provides a base 13.875% ranged defense. Slotted to the ED limit for defense you'd gain another 8% for about 21.8% total. You don't want to skimp on defense slotting your main defense toggles.
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Ah ok. Thank you for the clarification Zem. I totally forgot about the defense values being reduced as soon as Hide is suppressed. I'll go back to 1 slot in Hide and 4 slots in Danger Sense. My bad.
Aside from that, did you have a chance to review the build overall?
Before I start, a side note: Since the link didn't work, it took FOREVER to recreate your build in Mid's. Next time export the data chunk, if you wouldn't mind.
Overall it's a good build. I'll take the critique a step at a time starting with your level 2 power.
Before I do that, however, I want to point out that you have six LoTG +recharges. Isn't the sixth one wasted?
Okay, starting with Sting of the Wasp: It's not a bad choice, but I'd really recommend going with Gambler's Cut instead. The dpa is better, and the lower recharge and activation will give you far more chances to proc that achilles' heal. Just a thought.
Zem already covered Hide/Danger sense slotting, but let me just add to that by saying that if you're going to go light on one defense position, I'd pick melee over ranged any day on a nin/nin. Divine Avalanche will fill any holes in your melee defense.
I can see why you have the Gaussian's set in Build Up, but when you've already taken the body mastery pool in the first place, it just seems like a waste not to take focused accuracy and put those slots in there. You'll have increased perception and accuracy, but more importantly the build-up proc will have the chance to fire three times more often than putting it in Build-Up, because you'd be putting it in a toggle. You could either replace superior conditioning with it or teleport friend.
Since you have Stamina and Physical Perfection, Superior Conditioning isn't giving you all that much bang for your buck, so I'd recommend putting it there. My DM/Regen Scrapper posts similar end/recovery numbers and fights non-stop with Integration, Tough, Weave, Focused Accuracy and Superspeed running. I don't think you'll suffer for endurance.
Hasten: You've devoted three slots to recharge, here. When two level 50 IO's will put you over ED limits that third slot is more or less going to waste. Might I suggest putting it in Blinding Powder for a fifth Malaise's Illusions IO? That will give you an extra 6.25% Recharge time.
Kuj-in Retsu: Again, you've devoted three slots to recharge when you only really need two. I'd suggest dropping a Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance in that last slot.
Is this an end game build or will you be planning to exemp for strike forces? If the latter is true then you might run into some slotting issues. For example, you're really going to want more than one slot in Kuj-in Sha before level 34.
Recall Friend: Okay, I'll admit it - /nin builds that don't take caltrops irk me. Why on earth would you take a situational power like Recall Friend when you could have taken an I Win button like caltrops? Seriously, when used correctly, it cuts your incoming melee damage in HALF. Just throw the patch down after your alpha and the placate, and then STAND on the thing while you pwn everyone else in the spawn, who - by the way - will be too busy trying to get off the caltrops to mount any meaningful counter-offensive. Fully franken-slotted for recharge and slow and filled out with damage procs, it is stackable and can kill minions outright all by itself! Take that power and profit, dammit! 
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-By my count, I have 5. I've done alot of research on ParagonWiki and happened to stumble across the "Rule of 5" mechanic. I'll double check the build when I get home from work but thank you for pointing this out, if I do have 6.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Before I start, a side note: Since the link didn't work, it took FOREVER to recreate your build in Mid's. Next time export the data chunk, if you wouldn't mind.
-Please forgive me for this. My build was my first attempt at creating an IO build as well as exporting to a forum. I'll remember to post the data chunk for next time. Overall it's a good build. I'll take the critique a step at a time starting with your level 2 power. Before I do that, however, I want to point out that you have six LoTG +recharges. Isn't the sixth one wasted? |
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Okay, starting with Sting of the Wasp: It's not a bad choice, but I'd really recommend going with Gambler's Cut instead. The dpa is better, and the lower recharge and activation will give you far more chances to proc that achilles' heal. Just a thought.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Zem already covered Hide/Danger sense slotting, but let me just add to that by saying that if you're going to go light on one defense position, I'd pick melee over ranged any day on a nin/nin. Divine Avalanche will fill any holes in your melee defense.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I can see why you have the Gaussian's set in Build Up, but when you've already taken the body mastery pool in the first place, it just seems like a waste not to take focused accuracy and put those slots in there. You'll have increased perception and accuracy, but more importantly the build-up proc will have the chance to fire three times more often than putting it in Build-Up, because you'd be putting it in a toggle. You could either replace superior conditioning with it or teleport friend.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Hasten: You've devoted three slots to recharge, here. When two level 50 IO's will put you over ED limits that third slot is more or less going to waste. Might I suggest putting it in Blinding Powder for a fifth Malaise's Illusions IO? That will give you an extra 6.25% Recharge time.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Kuj-in Retsu: Again, you've devoted three slots to recharge when you only really need two. I'd suggest dropping a Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance in that last slot.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Is this an end game build or will you be planning to exemp for strike forces? If the latter is true then you might run into some slotting issues. For example, you're really going to want more than one slot in Kuj-in Sha before level 34.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Recall Friend: Okay, I'll admit it - /nin builds that don't take caltrops irk me. Why on earth would you take a situational power like Recall Friend when you could have taken an I Win button like caltrops? Seriously, when used correctly, it cuts your incoming melee damage in HALF. Just throw the patch down after your alpha and the placate, and then STAND on the thing while you pwn everyone else in the spawn, who - by the way - will be too busy trying to get off the caltrops to mount any meaningful counter-offensive. Fully franken-slotted for recharge and slow and filled out with damage procs, it is stackable and can kill minions outright all by itself! Take that power and profit, dammit!
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Sorry for the long response but just wanted to make sure that I'm getting the most bang for my buck out of this build.
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Should be. LOTG +recharge is a set bonus, rather than a proc. Also means the bonus goes away if you malefactor down more than 3 levels below the level of the IO, so he probably doesn't want a level 50 LOTG unless he just doesn't plan to run lower level TFs once hitting 50.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Before I do that, however, I want to point out that you have six LoTG +recharges. Isn't the sixth one wasted?
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| Okay, starting with Sting of the Wasp: It's not a bad choice, but I'd really recommend going with Gambler's Cut instead. The dpa is better, and the lower recharge and activation will give you far more chances to proc that achilles' heal. Just a thought. |
As for Achilles Heel... I really have never seen anyone run the numbers on that one. I can believe it would be useful against EBs and AVs but pretty much nothing else will last long enough for that to matter. And if you happen to be slotting for ranged defense, it is likely you may want to six-slot something like Mako's instead. You would have to balance the potential benefit of Achilles vs. that extra defense.
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| Since you have Stamina and Physical Perfection, Superior Conditioning isn't giving you all that much bang for your buck, so I'd recommend putting it there. My DM/Regen Scrapper posts similar end/recovery numbers and fights non-stop with Integration, Tough, Weave, Focused Accuracy and Superspeed running. I don't think you'll suffer for endurance. |
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| Hasten: You've devoted three slots to recharge, here. When two level 50 IO's will put you over ED limits that third slot is more or less going to waste. |
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| Might I suggest putting it in Blinding Powder for a fifth Malaise's Illusions IO? That will give you an extra 6.25% Recharge time. |
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| Kuj-in Retsu: Again, you've devoted three slots to recharge when you only really need two. I'd suggest dropping a Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance in that last slot. |
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| Is this an end game build or will you be planning to exemp for strike forces? If the latter is true then you might run into some slotting issues. For example, you're really going to want more than one slot in Kuj-in Sha before level 34. |
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Recall Friend: Okay, I'll admit it - /nin builds that don't take caltrops irk me. Why on earth would you take a situational power like Recall Friend when you could have taken an I Win button like caltrops? Seriously, when used correctly, it cuts your incoming melee damage in HALF. Just throw the patch down after your alpha and the placate, and then STAND on the thing while you pwn everyone else in the spawn, who - by the way - will be too busy trying to get off the caltrops to mount any meaningful counter-offensive. Fully franken-slotted for recharge and slow and filled out with damage procs, it is stackable and can kill minions outright all by itself! Take that power and profit, dammit!
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Not really. The only time you are wasting any DPS is if your attack chain has dead air in it. If at any time you are waiting for an attack to recharge, you are losing DPS. Otherwise, an attack chain composed of all the best DPA attacks you can get is better.|
Originally Posted by Areimus
-Perhaps the DPA might be a bit higher but I read that Sting of the Wasp is overall better for dps. I think they were saying that if you get your recharge times low enough, that GC will sit idle for awhile and that's wasteful.
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Theoretically of course. We're still talking about a discrete set of attacks so DPS is not constant throughout. Depending exactly how many attacks you execute to kill an opponent, one chain can actually beat another even if it has some lower DPA attacks in it. But this is getting into "splitting hairs" territory. The truth is you likely won't be able to tell the difference between these two attacks so pick whichever one you like better.
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| Good suggestion but I think I'll slot for the extra ranged defense. There are alot of mobs that will use ranged attacks while in melee so that extra 8% to ranged over the 1% in melee. |
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| - My build was pretty tight on slots as is. Do you suggest that I put Caltrops where Retsu is right now and Retsu instead of Recall Friend? For the slotting in Caltrops, what do you think if I went with 3/3 Positron's Blast (I'd include Chance for Energy damage) and 1 Recharge IO? Or should I try for 3 recharge IO and Positron's Blast, chance for Energy damage? Again, I'd have to go back to the drawing board with Mids to rearrange my slots and see how many I have left. |
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Wow, thank you everyone for the great information. Please note for the build I'm going to post, I didn't change Sting of the Wasp to Gambler's Cut though I did read Zem's post about it's DPA. Thank you very much for the info.
Here is hopefully my final build. I had to take out 1 slot from Kujin-Sha so I lost about 3% to it's heal and about 1.5-1.8 seconds on it's recharge time to make it all work.
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Now I checked into seeing if I can lessen Hasten's recharge time. If I slot an extra recharge IO, it brings it's recharge time to 133.74 seconds which I'm satisfied with as I can't seem to bring it any lower. In order to do this though, I had to remove 1 recharge IO from Kujin-Sha which brought it's recharge time to 71.14 instead of ~60 (w/2 recharge IOs). I think this is an acceptable loss since the duration of Sha is 120 seconds.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1593;785;1570;HEX;| |78DAA593594F534114C767BA58BBD196B674612B3B1628346AE2F260A268A250402| |B6A00A9177A856AD3366D89F2E607F089179EDCA208B83C1A8D3EF93DFC0AA2717B| |51AC679952923E7AD3FE7FF79E3973E6CC993389BBA30E21EE9D12D27926AB954AA| |96459CBDED68B9609ADBC52D4B2C222840829632AA167753D3691C9DDD252C93BF9| |623A581D19D56FEAB9128F65CAA515CFF9DCB25ED473E558F5C53195CF6763E3BA5| |6C8E4966CF4912CE87ADA49AFE7324BCB651868A4AFCBB04E215F2C6BE54C3E173A| |5BC82CC64EE7D3ABA984562AEBC5D56A9241C8ED28FC37AC423D15B3B801880B83C| |65800F489C645FA6A4C13863E1A84F08AB1DA2C83F04B1C719824BA3758099BE020| |5558F9DB800E0DBB84B6BF84EE3F8C0AE1D00EA0558CC32C234DAB188D1CD6E463B| |8096D5EC216F8995574F30CA579609631473838CFB84EB0A508DB30CBC2B34C96A7| |B4AEED11C1F198107C48883F01F84402DCAD2A192B27E3E6E5DB38A75ECEA90962D| |AD94FDA3F5184E15D81DB09C088931714CE7EAADF0B08EA6293740D90C9CD988411| |0F87111E36BDB462AD2525ECE5B3F1F1D9F816084D7C364D7C3653E0EEE7D846FFA| |4C40C3AA6186394693441E884B402BC9221E001988C22C82BF6325E41A490AA6F88| |EB1BE6FA86B9BE2D5CD8162E7394EB2B216EB3DA6E73980219C1D4AA6AD31AA05CB| |A8284D7B044BB5AA29D1B24C20D12E1068970837454A83354835C82599DEA083BBF| |D16EBA7E307E11BABF13FA7E1226C0BD47B569CF1BCA28FA8E30FC966086EDF7AB2| |CFAB7B915B708839B84A1E78C0DEE8C67040BCC1A50051C5867F735039660F00275| |BF09B61D530E316E9D61EE9938F74C12121B51A51A618716D3DE95821F3C627CBFA| |5838FD8B477AD84E4B36AAE79FDD7F3DE518D63BD68034DA24CA35C45B986328332| |8B3287328F9242A97CD89BED3A86091D4739817212C5EF06B98F9E163B881DC581E| |244694071A1B851BC2861940728152B4C36AA1D7E861852DD12394405D8D96FE25B| |F6A56692F20A5FD669C2D7DA8841AED1D1F5ADD375EF8BD0D491BA6388D659E2759| |6237596C375965AA9FF0131CE2AFA| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Alright and that's it for me. I'll be checking back on this post for any replies to see if there are other recommendations or if I overslotted for something again. I just hope that this is the last time I have to change around this build. lol
P.S. Please note my set bonus totals (in Mids). Overall compared to my previous build posted above, EVERYTHING has gone up. I'm very happy with this build and while I can't expect to have a ideal build, I feel this is feels pretty darn close to my playstyle - all made possible with everyone's advice.
Areimus
This is a good build. The only change I'd make is in the slotting of Caltrops. You don't need those extra Positron's Blasts in there. Caltrops are autohit and don't need accuracy slotting, and slotting them for damage is a waste IMHO. You've got enough global recharge to stack them three times with hasten running, so I wouldn't worry about slotting them for recharge OR slow. Instead, keep the Positron proc in there and add the Impeded Swiftness Chance for Smashing Damage Proc and the Ragnarok Chance for Knockdown. Procs are a numbers game; the more you can layer procs in the slotting and stacking the caltrops the better chance you have of outright killing a few of the minions with just the caltrops.
Just remember to use them. Incorporate them into your attack chain if you have to (they're up fast, but not so fast as to reduce dps). Ninjitsu's main strength is in its active mitigation. You're build isn't softcapped (and I don't think it needs to be), so you'll want to remember that active mitigation.
Blinding Powder will also serve you well. Open each fight with it; it doesn't aggro. Those two powers alone will sow enough meyhem that spawns will be too busy reeling from the shock to resist your onslaught.
Go. Hunt. Kill..... pretty much everything.
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Disagree on the slow. I believe Caltrops is a -80% runspeed debuff. The limit is -90%. The slower they are, the longer it takes them to get free and the less quickly they scatter. Also, the 80% debuff will be resisted a bit by mobs that are higher level than you so having one slow IO in there can help.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
This is a good build. The only change I'd make is in the slotting of Caltrops. You don't need those extra Positron's Blasts in there. Caltrops are autohit and don't need accuracy slotting, and slotting them for damage is a waste IMHO. You've got enough global recharge to stack them three times with hasten running, so I wouldn't worry about slotting them for recharge OR slow.
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| Instead, keep the Positron proc in there and add the Impeded Swiftness Chance for Smashing Damage Proc and the Ragnarok Chance for Knockdown. Procs are a numbers game |
And it's not going to kill even a minion. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Even if both procs hit every 10 seconds it would take 30 seconds to kill the minion and they're NOT going to hit that often (or last that long anyway).
Granted, I blew a slot on the Knockdown proc myself, but at least falling down keeps them in the patch that much longer. I mostly did it for the lulz, though.
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I was thinking that with an 18 second recharge (with global recharge and hasten) he can keep his caltrops permanently double-stacked, which will place him at the cap anyway. Now that I think about it, though, the slow doesn't stack from the same caster, so a slow enhancement definitely wouldn't hurt. Replace that knockdown proc with a slow/recharge IO from one of the sets and it should increase the debuff enough and reduce the recharge by a small amount, as well.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Disagree on the slow. I believe Caltrops is a -80% runspeed debuff. The limit is -90%. The slower they are, the longer it takes them to get free and the less quickly they scatter. Also, the 80% debuff will be resisted a bit by mobs that are higher level than you so having one slow IO in there can help.
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So let's run the numbers. If I am not mistaken, a proc in Caltrops will only check for the effect once every 10 seconds. A level 50 damage proc is roughly 70dmg. So two of them is 140 damage. 20% chance of 140 damage every 10 seconds is... 2.8 damage per second on average. Not saying that can't add up, but really do most fights last long enough for this to have spent two valuable enhancement slots on? And it's not going to kill even a minion. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Even if both procs hit every 10 seconds it would take 30 seconds to kill the minion and they're NOT going to hit that often (or last that long anyway). Granted, I blew a slot on the Knockdown proc myself, but at least falling down keeps them in the patch that much longer. I mostly did it for the lulz, though.
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Going by this info, two 20% procs in a power will fire with the following formula:
0.2*0.2=.04, or a 4% chance of both of the damage procs going off every ten seconds.
If a single proc has a 20% chance, then there's an 80% chance that it won't fire, so... 0.8*0.8=.64, or a 64% chance that neither of them will go off. Now, subtracting that 64% chance from the 100% total, you've got a 36% chance that one of them will go off every ten seconds.
As I said above, he can keep caltrops permanantly double stacked, and while the slows won't stack the damage and procs will. So when the first one is cast you've got a 36% chance immediately for one of them to fire for 70 points of damage. 10 seconds later, you've got a second chance.
Now, since the power has an 18 second recharge and a roughly (rounded up for Arcana Time) 2 second animation, on the third tic of the proc you actually have four procs firing. This gives you a .16% chance that all four procs fire, a 40% chance that none of them will fire, and a 60% chance that at least one of them will fire.
And as for the first eighteen seconds (before caltrops is stacked), there are four 20 percent separate chances for procs to fire, due to the fact that the procs fire once on cast and once ten seconds after that.
All told, that's a total of four chances for a proc every ten seconds right from cast, with a 60% chance that at least one of them will go off for a total of at least 70 points of damage per affected mob.
But that's just the procs. By itself, the caltrops in his build does (with damage set bonuses applied) around 2.78 points of damage every 2 seconds, so for the first eighteen seconds it does 14 additional points of damage per mob. By the time the third chance to proc comes up it will be doing 5.56 points of damage per tic for a total of 28 points of damage per proc chance after the first twenty seconds.
So that's a guaranteed 14-28 points with a 60% chance of at least doubling the damage every ten seconds.
There's yet another factor. What are the odds that a given mob will be in the patch long enough to for the procs to have at least two chances to fire?
Ordinary movement rate in this game is 21 ft/sec. Apply a 90% debuff (replacing the Ragnarok proc with a slow) to that and you've got 2 ft/sec. With a 15 foot radius, it would take a minion 7.5 seconds to run straight from you to the outside of the patch, provided they're not immune to slows (curse you, Warwolves).
Which they will never do. Depending on the spawn size, there will be other mobs in the way, meaning that every minion trying to get off the patch will likely have to change direction to move around one of his partners. In addition, every third tick or so the AI will tell the mob to turn and fire off a ranged attack, taking anywhere from one to three seconds to animate on average.
So you can reasonably expect a minion to be on the patch initially for at or around 10 seconds, giving you that 14 points with a 60% chance of 70 more.
Once a minion (or lt, for that matter) gets to the edge of the patch, however, they'll magically forget all about it and turn around and go right back in. They likely won't make it to you, but you can reasonably expect them to be on the patch for the third proc for damage (which, if Caltrops has been stacked, will carry a 60% chance of at least 70 more points of damage, plus somewhere between 14 and 28 points from the caltrops themselves, depending on how long they're on the patch this time)
And of course that cycle repeats itself until the minion is either killed by you or gets proc damaged to death.
All told, you can reasonably expect eight proc chances per minion, with an 84% chance that at least one of them will hit him, with a pretty darned near infinitesimal chance (.00025%) that all eight chances will roll in your favor for a total of around 560 points of damage (plus whatever caltrops ordinarily does, most likely somewhere between 20 and 40 points of damage).
So you're right. Caltrops won't - in and of itself - be guaranteed to kill a single minion. In a protracted battle, however, the odds are that at least one or two of the minions will have the majority of their damage done to them with caltrops. And yes, some of them might have an itty bitty chance to actually die from caltrops alone.
Take splash damage from your flashing steel and golden dragon into account and add that to any confusion damage from blinding powder and you'd see more than one minion suddenly keel over and die while fleeing the caltrops.
EDIT - I have a headache now from all that math.
I forgot to mention this: Most fights will not last twenty to thirty seconds unless you play at the higher difficulties. You can expect higher than 2.8 dps, however. Calculating on a 60% chance of a single proc firing, you've got 4.2 additional dps to add to the 1.39 dps already provided by caltrops for a total of 5.59-6.98 extra dps, depending on whether or not caltrops is stacked. Not a great deal, given Flashing Steel's 48-ish DPS (for example), but considering caltrops' dismal dps without them and those two extra slots - if they can be afforded (and on that build I'd argue that they can) make the difference between an excellent mitigation power and an excellent mitigation power with offensive potential.
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Wow, I never expected an "evaluate my build" post to go this far. There is plenty of good information on this thread...not just for me but for anyone that's looking for ideas on their nin/nin build.
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Joe, I love your ideas/usage of Caltrops and thank you for doing some fairly extensive math on it. However, I think that for my purposes, I'd strictly use Caltrops as mitigation tool. While it does have the potential to do some decent damage, it's overall damage output severely drops as there are less mobs to hit. Secondly, while I've never been in a high-end Task Force, I can only assume that an extra ~6 dps on a mob (especially when it's Boss-level or higher) is mostly negligible; I would think that playing "keep away" with the mobs to mitigate incoming damage not only to myself but to anyone else that I may have teamed with is far more important than the dps component. That being said, I certainly think that I could re-slot Caltrops with 2 Posi's Blast - Damage/Recharge and Chance for Energy Damage. I'd then slot an Endurance/Recharge/Slow. As long as I can double-stack Caltrops, that's all the damage output I need from it or so I think. I was also thinking that the extra 2.5% Recovery from 2/2 Posi's Blasts would be beneficial as opposed to a chance get a proc. However, to counter that point - I suppose the more overall damage that you are dishing out to a mob, whether it be 1 or an entire group means less overall endurance used due to less powers being activated over time. Hmm.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
EDIT - I have a headache now from all that math.
I forgot to mention this: Most fights will not last twenty to thirty seconds unless you play at the higher difficulties. You can expect higher than 2.8 dps, however. Calculating on a 60% chance of a single proc firing, you've got 4.2 additional dps to add to the 1.39 dps already provided by caltrops for a total of 5.59-6.98 extra dps, depending on whether or not caltrops is stacked. Not a great deal, given Flashing Steel's 48-ish DPS (for example), but considering caltrops' dismal dps without them and those two extra slots - if they can be afforded (and on that build I'd argue that they can) make the difference between an excellent mitigation power and an excellent mitigation power with offensive potential. |
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
but considering caltrops' dismal dps without them and those two extra slots - if they can be afforded (and on that build I'd argue that they can)
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What are your thoughts?
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I think it's a mistake to think of procs in caltrops from a strictly dps point of view. Caltrops is in no way going to be a good dps power. The procs are better thought of as burst damage potential. At cast and every ten seconds, you have a percentage chance for a burst of extra damage. More procs increase that chance quite a bit.|
Originally Posted by Areimus
Joe, I love your ideas/usage of Caltrops and thank you for doing some fairly extensive math on it. However, I think that for my purposes, I'd strictly use Caltrops as mitigation tool. While it does have the potential to do some decent damage, it's overall damage output severely drops as there are less mobs to hit. Secondly, while I've never been in a high-end Task Force, I can only assume that an extra ~6 dps on a mob (especially when it's Boss-level or higher) is mostly negligible; I would think that playing "keep away" with the mobs to mitigate incoming damage not only to myself but to anyone else that I may have teamed with is far more important than the dps component. That being said, I certainly think that I could re-slot Caltrops with 2 Posi's Blast - Damage/Recharge and Chance for Energy Damage. I'd then slot an Endurance/Recharge/Slow. As long as I can double-stack Caltrops, that's all the damage output I need from it or so I think. I was also thinking that the extra 2.5% Recovery from 2/2 Posi's Blasts would be beneficial as opposed to a chance get a proc. However, to counter that point - I suppose the more overall damage that you are dishing out to a mob, whether it be 1 or an entire group means less overall endurance used due to less powers being activated over time. Hmm.
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That said, I can totally understand your thinking. The procs are nice to have, but not necessary in the least. The power is awesome out of the box.
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- Now allow me to pose a question to you - where do you suggest that these 2 slots be taken from without losing valuable set bonuses, recharge time perhaps, damage perhaps? I like to think that the set bonuses benefit the entire build as a whole. Focusing on making Caltrops output 1 or 2 more dps to lose something else (I can't quantify it because it depends where you took it out of lol) seems counter productive, if you look at the build as a whole, don't you think? What are your thoughts? |
In you're case, you've got room for one extra slot for a damage proc, with two for enhancing the power. I wouldn't change anything with your build at this point beyond what you just mentioned.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I agree with you on this. While I'm certainly no math wiz (I majored in Math but I still don't consider myself a math wiz by any means), it's common knowledge that the more chances you add to something, you'll have greater chance of success...whether it be in procs, the lottery, etc.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I think it's a mistake to think of procs in caltrops from a strictly dps point of view. Caltrops is in no way going to be a good dps power. The procs are better thought of as burst damage potential. At cast and every ten seconds, you have a percentage chance for a burst of extra damage. More procs increase that chance quite a bit.
That said, I can totally understand your thinking. The procs are nice to have, but not necessary in the least. The power is awesome out of the box. |
When I hit level 50 and obtain enough infamy to afford the build I posted, I'll check on my endurance usage and see if 2/2 Posi's Blast is all that necessary. If I find that it isn't, you can most certainly bet I'll be loading Caltrops with the procs mentioned above plus either a slow or the knockdown. While a knockdown is less reliable than slow since on a proc basis, a knockdown takes what? 4-5 seconds or more to recover from plus they are still stuck in the same spot. Anyways, too many "IF/Thens" in the post - time to start leveling up and put this information to practice!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Oh, I wasn't suggesting two more slots - just speaking in general. If you have two extra slots in a build - any build - for the two damage procs in caltrops, they're nice to have.
In you're case, you've got room for one extra slot for a damage proc, with two for enhancing the power. I wouldn't change anything with your build at this point beyond what you just mentioned. |
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In retrospect, I think Zem is right - With only three slots, I think the Ragnarok proc will be too costly for too little in return. If you do decide to proc the power out more, you'd probably be better off to slot that third slot with a slow IO instead.
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Originally Posted by Areimus
I agree with you on this. While I'm certainly no math wiz (I majored in Math but I still don't consider myself a math wiz by any means), it's common knowledge that the more chances you add to something, you'll have greater chance of success...whether it be in procs, the lottery, etc.
When I hit level 50 and obtain enough infamy to afford the build I posted, I'll check on my endurance usage and see if 2/2 Posi's Blast is all that necessary. If I find that it isn't, you can most certainly bet I'll be loading Caltrops with the procs mentioned above plus either a slow or the knockdown. While a knockdown is less reliable than slow since on a proc basis, a knockdown takes what? 4-5 seconds or more to recover from plus they are still stuck in the same spot. Anyways, too many "IF/Thens" in the post - time to start leveling up and put this information to practice! |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Nerd fight! |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Your calculations are incorrect.
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Quote:
| If a single proc has a 20% chance, then there's an 80% chance that it won't fire, so... 0.8*0.8=.64, or a 64% chance that neither of them will go off. Now, subtracting that 64% chance from the 100% total, you've got a 36% chance that one of them will go off every ten seconds. |
64% for neither
32% for one.
4% for both.
--------------
= 100%
So the average dps is (.64 * 0) + (.32 * 70) + (.04 * 140) = 28dmg per 10 seconds = 2.8dps... or... same thing I got before.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Quote:
Dang. Pwn'd again. |
Originally Posted by Zem
Nerd fight!
I knew this had to be wrong, but it took me a bit to remember enough math to explain why. You forgot to subtract the chance of both. The chance of one proc going off is 100% minus the chance of neither going off minus the chance of both going off. So it's not 36%. It's 32%. 64% for neither 32% for one. 4% for both. -------------- = 100% So the average dps is (.64 * 0) + (.32 * 70) + (.04 * 140) = 28dmg per 10 seconds = 2.8dps... or... same thing I got before. |
Knew I forgot something.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Hi everyone,
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 13.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 6.125% Defense(Smashing)
- 6.125% Defense(Lethal)
- 4.25% Defense(Fire)
- 4.25% Defense(Cold)
- 4.25% Defense(Energy)
- 4.25% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 9.25% Defense(Melee)
- 5.5% Defense(Ranged)
- 5.5% Defense(AoE)
- 4% Enhancement(Heal)
- 2.5% Enhancement(Confused)
- 57% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 15% FlySpeed
- 108.43 HP (9.006%) HitPoints
- 15% JumpHeight
- 15% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -8)
- Knockup (Mag -8)
- MezResist(Held) 2.75%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 9.35%
- MezResist(Stun) 4.4%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
- 8.5% (0.142 End/sec) Recovery
- 42% (2.111 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 1.26% Resistance(Fire)
- 1.26% Resistance(Cold)
- 22.5% RunSpeed
I've been trying to work on a good build for a Nin/Nin Stalker. Didn't realize that evil_tim had already posted a nin/nin build a few threads before mine.
Anyways, if anyone could please evaluate the build below and advise if I could make any changes, that would be greatly appreciated.
Here's the build:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Stalker
Primary Power Set: Ninja Blade
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Sting of the Wasp
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage: Level 40
- (3) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (3) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 40
- (19) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (19) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (46) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
Level 1: Hide- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (13) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (15) Gift of the Ancients - Defense: Level 40
- (31) Gift of the Ancients - Run Speed +7.5%: Level 40
Level 2: Flashing Steel- (A) Obliteration - Damage: Level 50
- (15) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (31) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
- (42) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage: Level 50
Level 4: Ninja Reflexes- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (5) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (5) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
- (31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
Level 6: Assassin's Blade- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage: Level 40
- (7) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (7) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge: Level 40
- (9) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (9) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (11) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 40
Level 8: Build Up- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 50
- (11) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff: Level 50
- (13) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance: Level 21
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 50
- (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge: Level 21
- (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance: Level 50
Level 10: Danger Sense- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (17) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 12: Combat Jumping- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
- (48) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
Level 14: Super Jump- (A) Jumping IO: Level 50
Level 16: Placate- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (17) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 18: Kuji-In Rin- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (25) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 20: Divine Avalanche- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
- (21) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (21) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (23) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (23) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
Level 22: Kuji-In Sha- (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal: Level 30
- (34) Doctored Wounds - Recharge: Level 30
- (34) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (43) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (43) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
Level 24: Hasten- (A) Recharge Reduction
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (40) Recharge Reduction
Level 26: Soaring Dragon- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage: Level 40
- (27) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (27) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 40
- (29) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 40
- (29) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (45) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
Level 28: Boxing- (A) Accuracy IO: Level 50
Level 30: Tough- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
- (36) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection: Level 30
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly- (A) Obliteration - Damage: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (34) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
- (42) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
Level 35: Blinding Powder- (A) Malaise's Illusions - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (36) Malaise's Illusions - Accuracy/Endurance: Level 50
- (36) Malaise's Illusions - Accuracy/Confused/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Malaise's Illusions - Endurance/Confused: Level 50
Level 38: Kuji-In Retsu- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (43) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (50) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 41: Superior Conditioning- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
Level 44: Physical Perfection- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
- (45) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 40
- (45) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40
Level 47: Weave- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance: Level 40
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
Level 49: Recall Friend- (A) Range IO: Level 50
------------Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint- (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 2: Rest- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 1: AssassinationLevel 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO: Level 50
Level 2: Hurdle- (A) Jumping IO: Level 50
Level 2: Health- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
- (39) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
Level 2: Stamina- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
- (40) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 21
- (40) Endurance Modification IO: Level 50
------------Set Bonus Totals: