Darth's Guide to Ice/Em Tanks in pvp, v 1.5

Hibernoob · 06-04-2006 02:20 PM

"Return of the Guide"...Darth's Guide to Ice/EM tanks in PvP v 1.5

The guide returns! This is an updated and expanded version of my original Ice/EM guide. This guide is intended to be a comprehensive overview with in-depth analysis and strategy discussion for Ice armor and a few secondary/epic powerset choices in PvP, with focus on the energy melee secondary. Please note that none of the builds listed are intended to be "the one true build". One of the of the beauties of Ice Armor builds in pvp is the fair degree of flexibility you get. This IS intented to be a go-to guide, in a readable format that you can come back to again and again as you develop your own strategy with your tanks in pvp.

Next Update: Expect to see some pvp videos of Ice in his various builds and updated info fairly soon. In fact, I would call this part 1 of a 2-part update to the guide. I need to lock down some numbers, which will likely take Dev correspondance, and wait to see how RV and the meta-game changes when i7 finally hits live servers. There will also probably be more in-depth strategy on RV. Mainly I'm focussing on using Fraps to get enough clips together to make a good pvp video that illustrates some of the points I make in the guide.

Why is Ice good in pvp?

There are many ways to answer this, but the truth is somewhat obscure and involves the concept of "tempo" and the Ice tanks ability to control it. We are, and always have been, the most "controller-ish" of the tanks. Rather than the meaty "I'm a ton of HP and res and there's not a [censored] thing you can do about it!" role that other tanks are forced to play, there are many ways to get our job done.

Tempo is the rate things happen in a duel. Simple. An SG-mate of mine, Chucifer, wrote an in-depth analysis of tempo and it's affects for our SG, and reading that, I understood why my Ice/Em was strong. Incidentally, it's also the reason Stalkers do so well in zones. They are often able to work at their own tempo. Tempo is the reason you hear things like "burst damage is good in pvp" and "Blasters rock!" and "Omg that stalker is cheap!" and so forth. These are all expressions of the same fact...within the world of pvp, all ATs have their own rate of doing and taking damage, managing endurance, and movement. Several factors are involved, including: Recharge, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense, HP, Endurance, Heals, Range, etc.

Consider the extreme example of a BS scrapper facing off against a /devices blaster. If the scrapper, with no ranged attacks, left off his mez protection, the blaster could use web grenade to immobilize (-jump, -recharge, -speed) him over and over, and, by hopping up on a ledge, reduce that scrappers damage output 100%, while still being able to infict 100% of his damage. That blaster would eventually win that duel, as the scrappers damage output would be zero. As long as the Blaser himself could do enough damage to overcome the Scrappers natural health regen/defenses/etc while the scrapper sits there like a paper-weight, and I mean even 1% more damage than needed, the blaster will eventually win that fight.

Is it a hypothetical example? Sure. But the point remains. When a build is forced to work outside its chosen tempo, that build is at a noticiable disadvantage. Any build that can FORCE another toon to move at a different speed has powerfull advantages in a pvp situation.

Later on, when I talk about what kinds of tanks are good or bad in certain situations, I'm referring largely to the concept of tempo and each tanks strenghts or weaknesses. Stone, for example, is great vs multiple opponents, especially melee, but sucks in a highly mobile duel and has very poor damage output. IMO, if you get killed by a Stone tank, you deserved it for sticking around that long. *shrugs*

Ice, unlike most other tanks, has several tools to influence tempo in pvp. Unlike controllers or caster builds that can also alter tempo (blasters, dominators, controllers), our tools often don't need a target and are AoE or pbAoE, helping us a ton when we don't have a target or are in melee range against several foes at once. This also makes us solid "placeholders"...holding a pill box, turret, base hallway, whatever.

Below are some of an Ice tanks tools:

<ul type="square">
[*]Energy Absorbtion: In pvp, it's a pbAoE attack can be fired every 30s, if slotted and w/o hasten. With hasten, it's roughly every 22s. When fired, it drains roughly 1/3 any targets endurance within the pbAoE range and refills a small amount of yours PER FOE hit by the attack, as well as granting a small defense bonus per foe (in the 1% range, per foe, not really of note, but important to remember in case you have a choice of hitting that MM or Controller NEAR his pets or AWAY from his pets). Hitting mulitple foes in pvp can top up your endurance, but obviously comes with it's own dangers. It's most usefull in head to head melee duels, and really gets interesting when fighting multiple melee opponents at once. My Ice/Em once took on 3 equal level brutes in Warburg who were silly enough to sit inside melee range. Not only did they fall prey to ALL of my tempo altering powers, they mostly fell prey to EA...by trying to build fury, they stayed in melee range for the leach, thus costing them all their endurance over time and keeping me gassed up and firing. Anyways, a total endurance drain will drop all toggles, often leaving the opposing player vulernable to mez attacks and more vulernable to damage, with the added bonus of making it harder for them to run or fight back. I usually go for the toggle-drop + Build Up + TF combo for the stun, then follow up with an ET and a Bonemasher/Ice-Blast before BU wears off. It's devastating if they don't manage to get out of the way in time.

EA used to be primarily a Defense buff that increased with the number of nearby foes, and retains a diminished aspect of that ability in it's current form. In general, you're encouraged to just use EA as an endurance draining/buffing ability, but it's worth noting you can use this buff to get a decent defense boost with EA off a few MM pets, which helps even more since they struggle to hit +con, defense based enemies anyways. Just be aware of it...like the endurance buff, it only gets better with the more foes you can get into range before you shoot it off.

[*]Chilling Embrace: It's a 32% -recharge and a 14% damage debuff, both unenhanceable. Both only apply to people silly enough to stand in it's PbAoE aura, which has a range of 10ft in a bubble around the user. It does, however, have an enhanceable slow movement that can often stack up well with the slow movement powers of others on your team, which is handy for keeping people within the area of the debuffs. Primarily of interest is it's ability to affect recharge times, followed by it's ability to interupt certain abilities (*note* not Assasin Strikes, for the moment) and reveal concealed foes. Many, many otherwise whup-booty builds fall apart with a recharge penalty applied to them...controllers can't get out pets again, scrappers can't get that heal off in time, and nobodies high-damage, burst attacks are up when they wish they were. For those builds who only have 1-3 attacks, this is critical, as it basicly keeps them sitting there looking at you a lot, waiting for their powers to recharge. Rage is no longer perma. Stoners get off an attack like once a week. Tier 9s take even longer to recharge. Hasten, self heals, etc, all take much longer, exposing gaps in the builds of other players they might not have known were there. Lemme put it this way...if 2 tanks, with otherwise equal stats, faced off, and one of em had a pbAoE -recharge, the one with that power will win every time.

A word on the slow movement portion. The -movement, in and of itself, is not particularly valuable. You don't slot it to slow passing super-speeders, or Combat Jumpers. If they're not attacking you, any toon moving at 50+ mph is going to be into and back out of your little 20ft (max, side to side) aura before they've even noticed the effects. You slot it, in pvp, because of suppression. A great many dedicated pvp builds have Swift or, more likely, Hurdle 3-slotted to help avoid the "suppression" effect in PvP. This allows for ease of kiting on Blapper and Scrapper builds. However, when a target attacks you AND is Chilling Embraces range, they do get noticiably slowed. This has annoyed many a blapper in its day, as it breaks up their kiting strategy. Even if they DO detoggle one of my 4+ toggles and get my mez protection, they spend too much time getting BACK into range to put a disorient on me. Meanwhile, if you're in melee range and sticking around for a few, I'm going to be firing away with Energy Transfer and Total Focus. This brings it to it's other realistic pvp application, the "Melee toon who is losing" application. When a scrapper or brute, or tank or stalker, is losing a fight vs. another melee toon, a lot of times they can simply Jump or SS away. This is not true when facing and Ice tank with CE. If you wait to run until your in the low red HP, I'm GOING to get one more shot in, thanks to Chilling Embrace.

Think of it like a patch of sand you come across in a vehicle: Drive through at speed and you'll never notice. Stop for a moment, break momentum, and it just became a LOT harder to get out. It's even better if you can throw an Ice Epic blast after them, especially on teams, but we'll get to that later...

[*]Hibernate: What is usually a laughingstock of the tanker community really shines with the concept of tempo. Another, more traditional, tier 9 power for melee toons has a large +def or +res with a 2-3 min timer, an endurance crash, and a long recharge to follow. Hibernate has a 120s base recharge, and essentially functions as a power-rest mode with a phase component. What I mean is, you are stuck in one spot, unable to do anything else (except select an action to immediately follow release from hibernate, an extremely usefull feature), with rather massive hp and endurance regeneration for a time up to 30s in duration. You cannot be damaged or affected in any way, except, it seems, by Repel, which will move you around in a phased state.

Hibernate is especially nice in FFA and team arena duels. In a team duel, for example, my teamates might be elsewhere and I come under fire from several blasters. As they get excited, whittling down my HP, I wait till I'm about to die then pop hibernate. Not only will they have to wait, up to 30s, to start doing damage again, they'll also have to get past my defenses and HP all over again to get a kill! My teamates may or may not come to my rescue, but either way I've likely kept multiple players focuses on me and given my teamates elsewhere a numbers advantage for 20-50s so they can rack up kills.
If the opposing side realizes that hibernate is just going to waste their time, they usually take off in search of squishier targets. This is good for you too, since you get to stay alive and come out swinging and taunting things again.

Hibernate, as mentioned above, lets you select one power to go into effect immediately following the end of it's effects. This means, for example, if I've been overstacked on holds and popped a BF, I can hibernate and let the holds dissipate in the phase period. However, I controller would be free to re-hold me immediately after hibernate ended because my mez shield would still be down from my being held before I hibernated. Since I can set my mez shield to go up immediately, this is a notable saving grace of this power.

An amusing aspect of Hibernate is that since it's not readily recognized, many ppl try to brawl you, or keep attacking, or pop build up, or some such nonsense. Though of little pracitcal value, it does provide some amusement as you sit there and heal up for a few.

Note that many people have whined to me that they think the recharge is too low on tanker hibernate. In teams, there are definately times you'll wish it was up MORE often, and many Ice tanks take Aid Self to reduce their vulnerability and the amount of time they need to hibernate.

Strategy-wise, some people like to set up camp outside your hibernate and wait for you. That's fine too. Assess the crowd. Can they take you? Do you have support on the way? What powers are up? If they've put down mines and debuff fields and there are 2 stalkers about, I'd plan on booking it. Wait for EA to pop up, end hibernate early, hit EA for the defense/slow res, and SS on out of there.

On the other hand, if you can take them...well...advice for that comes later.

[*]Resistance to slow effects: It simply means that other toons aren't as easily able to affect OUR recharge times and movement speeds, meaning that, in a larger way, we're more in control of our builds tempo than other toons are. EA has the biggest slow-resistance when used, relative to your passive slow resistances.

[*]Taunt: Further discussion on the taunt changes will be discussed below in the "Team PvP section". A few people couldn't figure out where I talked about whether to take taunt or not, so this serves as a sign-post...it's down further, guys.

Taunt belongs in any discussion on tempo because it essentially reduces an opponents damage to a chosen target by quite a bit, redirecting it into the tank himself. In theory, this works fine...however, in practice, Taunt is pretty much a sham these days, IMO.
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"But Darth! You didn't mention Defense! I thought Ice was Defense-based?"

I hear people say Ice is a defense-based build all the time. It gets lumped in with SR and EA and a lot of other sets. In the first version of this guide, I don't think I mentioned defense ANYWHERE in the whole thing. It is, seriously, one of our least-usefull tools.

In fact, in the old days, the Ice/em tanks at the time didn't even take the defense armors for pvp builds, except sometimes Glacial for perception. Now that pvp defense has been buffed, they're definately worth taking and slotting.

For the record, a 3-slotted Frozen Armor, Glacial Armor, and Wet Ice will yield roughly 27.6% defense to S/L/E/NE and capped Cold resistance. Frozen Armor comes with an un-enhanceable Fire res of 12.5%, as well. That, plus most of Fire damage attacks actually being 1/2 smashing, is why Fire isn't a huge threat to us. Some people take Permafrost for even more Cold and Fire res, and a small slow-res. Psi is still the big threat, damage-wise, and Toxic, when applicable. We also have no res so S/L damage, so keep that in mind.

With EA thrown in, it's tough to guess you're average defense...with one target, figure roughly 29-30% defense most of the time. It only gets better if other targets are nearby to get a bit extra defense from, but, again, it's not a huge deal in pvp. When most pvp players have to figure out how to hit some guy in Elude or MoG, trying to get around your 30% defense is like trying to get worried about a speedbump when driving around in your Hummer. It's a non-issue for a lot of pvp builds, in other words.

What, then, is Ice vulnerable to in PvP?

Well, with only mediocre defenses, Ice is vulernable to high accuracy, sustained burst damage, especially from range, mez stacking, and some of the stronger Endurance debuffs some villians have. Also, unlike a lot of tanks, we can't really take concentrated fire from too many sources at once for any real period of time...however, we do have hibernate to make up for this in some regard.

For example...at lvl 50, my Ice tank has:

2979.5hp with Hoarfrost running, 1874.1 without. In the hasten gap, I can spend up to a minute in a lower HP state (handy time to hibernate for 30s, if you ask me..). With hasten, it's only 16s. I always recomend getting the +HP accolades, which can push you up 3.2k+.

Hibernate is up every 61.56s without hasten, and 45.29 with hasten up. Note that this is the time it takes to recharge after you stop using it...it's a toggle, like phase.

My passive heal rate, from Health, is 149 per tick, with Hoarfrost up, and a 1-full time of 134.9s. (not accounting for Accolades)

So, in order to kill my tank (assuming optimal, prepared for combat conditions), an opposing player must deal out roughly 3k damage that must all get past my defenses (roughly 30% on average, depending on build) in under 45s, or before I can hibernate. The alternative is to deal less damage in that amount of time, but prevent me from activating hibernate at the correct time, most likely by way of a mez power or end drain.

I can tell you from experience, there are only 2 (now 3) main threats that can accomplish this in time...a Scrapper with acc/dam hammis and running Focussed Accuracy and a controller, (usually fire/rad), hammied-out, setting up containment and then blasting with APP powers. Both are primarly 40+ threats, so Icers do very well in Warburg and in lower PvP zones.

Additionally, MMs are now capable of out-lasting and damaging Ice tanks with the current Bodyguard up on test. If we had more AoEs or cones, such might not be the case, but be aware of this fact for 1v1 and remember this when reviewing the Epics below.

In teams, obviously the situation can change and other builds become a threat. Dual-thermal corrupters can be quite a hassle, with 2x Thermal Exhaustions.

Other Armors and tanks in PvP:

Why Ice as opposed to the other sets? Well, pvp has changed a lot for tankers since its introduction. Originally, we were nigh-invincible high defense-medium damage dealers who were pretty solid in pvp. With the introduction of toggle-dropping, crits for scrappers, unresistable damage, and a lot of buffs to other classes, Granite and Invuln were left with the role of Taunt-bots when in their tier 9 powers, and Ice and Fire were left with a more scranky approach. Then taunt was nerfed, and so was Invuln. We were basicly really crappy scrappers with low damage and a quirky taunt-ability. We were pretty much shunned from pvp teams.

Ice took dominance as the best of the scrankers, with taunt-botting being left primarily to Stone tanks who took the presence pool taunts as well and spammed them. Since Ice was more mobile, it was the #1 pvp tank at that time. However, currently toggle-dropping is being scaled back, and Taunts ability has been changed as well.

It is now possible, once again, to play taunt-bot, if that is your wish. If so, I would build a Granite/Focussed Accuracy or Tactics build and slot lots of accuracy in your Taunt abilities. Your role is essentially to play an aggro door-stop to any opposing player who happens by. You will likely still have trouble taunting high defense toons, and will yourself be annoyed by being taunted, which usually locks two taunt-capable toons into a taunt-war to keep each other locked down. We'll discuss Taunt below, and it's current applications and pitfalls.

Granite is still the relatively unkillable man about town. However, a smart opposing team will just slap a few debuffs on you and ignore you. Any -to-hit is going to hurt a lot, especially your taunting, as is any additional -recharge that comes your way. Teleport is ponderous to use in a world of SuperJumpers. It doesn't have the mobility for RV, IMO, but would rock at holding down a pill-box, I would imagine.

Invuln is a fine set, but like EA, SR, and a lot of other sets with tier 9 powers, it really performs best when in Unstoppable. Unstoppable is basicly 3 minutes of life for an almost certain death afterwards. Invuln got a lot of it's strength back with the nerf to toggle-dropping, but lacks endurance management and slow resistance, which I find essential in pvp. In general, I would say Invuln is a solid all-rounder for pure tank pvp. Invuln is like EA in that they are both pretty vulernable to -recharge, both from a DPS and survival standpoint.

Fire is a scranker in pvp. While sometimes solid, IMO the HP is too low to really scrank well, and endurance issues can be a problem. Low HP is a problem with mez stacking, Assasin Strikes, Psi damage, and a variety of other issues out there. 2 build-ups is nice though. A fire tank will lose to an Ice tank in a 1v1 though, or draw if he does not bother to try to win.

Why Energy Melee?

Energy Melee is the premier damage dealer among tanker secondaries (and in most classes, for that matter). It also excels in burst damage for the reasons listed in the post in my sig...essentially, in addition to being nice in pvp for a variety of reasons, burst damage is far more suited to becoming DPS than vice versa, especially for an Ice tank who will be taking Hasten, Stamina, and Tactics/Focussed Accuracy. Additionally, burst damage is of use in team pvp because it often gives you the chance to get a kill in before their heal is up again, relative to DPS, which is mitigated greatly by movement and healing abilities.

Epics:

IMO, there are only 2 Epics a pvp tank can seriously look at. The Energy Mastery or Artic Mastery (Ice) Epic sets. Fire has some damage, but not really that much extra and little other synergy. I could see a Ice/SS/Fire built purely for damage, as we'll see in my Ice vs EM comparo below.

Energy primarily offers the vaunted Focussed Accuracy, discussed below, the rarely-taken Conserve Power, and two weak blasts with limited damage and range not really worth talking about much. Most people take FA and possibly laser eyes and leave the rest of that set alone.

Ice offers an Immob, a Hold, a very nice ranged blast, and a nova-like power. In my opinion, they stack very well with an Ice tanks other abilites to make kind of a TankTroller for team purposes. IMO, the stacking abilities, less-resisted damage type, and superior ranged abilities make up for taking tactics over Focussed Accuracy and the Energy pool

Here are the base stats:

<ul type="square">[*]Chillblain: 1.17s activation, 50ft range, 2.778 BI in DoT (cold)damage, 10s recharge, 15s duration. -recharge, -speed.

Although immobs are commonly resisted by people taking CJ, I find this an uber-usefull power for several reasons. First, it's pretty spammable when slotted, especially with HOs. That means it's easy to over-stack squishy immob resistances, if you can stay in range and spam this. Even for the second it takes them to pop a BF, that's time your rushing in with SS, popping a Build Up on the way and bringing the pain. Good stuff.

The DoTs are good vs Stalkers, which is nice, cause you're not going to slot this for damage anyways, so you might as well get as much use as possible out of it. I wouldn't go with less than 4 slots until you get pretty HOed out. And range SOs only give you about another 10ft apiece, not usually the best value, but I have thought of putting a few in there, from time to time...usually when I'm being TKed into a corner and wish I had something other than Ice-Blast to fire back with.

Spamming this, plus Ice-Blast for damage, plus trying to get into melee range for the EM big guns (which brings CE to bear on your target), works out as a pretty ghastly -recharge on your opponents at most times.
[*]Block of Ice: 1.87s activation, 80ft range, 2.778 BI (cold), 32s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed.

Some people like this power. I do not. It's recharge is long, it's a pain to over-stack, and they are just going to use a Breakfree anyways. I'm not trying to hold you anyways, I'm just trying to get you to sit still long enough to pound your a**. Failing that, I'd like to slow you down and reduce your effectiveness. Chillblain works nicely.
[*]Ice Blast: 1s activation, 80ft range, 4.556 BI (2.778 cold, 1.778 smash), 6s recharge, -recharge, -speed.

Good damage. I replaced Bonemasher in my chain with Ice blast. Bonemasher's BI is the same, it's % Smashing damage is the same, it's recharge is slower (8s), but it did stack disorients with the rest of EM. Ultimately, I felt the tradeoff in range and stacking of -movement and -speed was more valuable than Bonemasher the vast majority of the time.

Often I need a "kill shot" after an enemy hops away from a built up ET+TF combo...a built-up Ice-Blast works nicely, from range. The stacking of the -recharge/movement is just a perk, I wouldn't bother to slot for it, but be aware that keeping it a big part of my chain works adds damage mitigation to the melee foes I engage, just like my CE aura.
[*]Ice Storm: 2.03s activation, 60ft range, 7.344 BI DoT (1/2 cold, 1/2 lethal), 120s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed.

A big AoE that does DoT and takes a long time to activate is pretty much a total dog in most pvp. It's too slow to get going, and, frankly, even if most opponents WERE motivated or forced to stay for the entire duration, it's damage still isn't spectacular.Ice Storm will be usefull in zones, though.

To start off, tanks just happen to be the best AT to defend a pill-box with. (MMs are, for villians, btw) Gaining control of the guns, aiming those well (with stacked perception to see almost all incoming foes) + Ice storm to effect...hibernate to bail you out (btw, you can still aim the guns in hibernate)...it's a good package to hang on to a box under attack. Remember to actively focus the guns attacks, preferably first on buffer classes, then on any Hidden stalkers (only long enough to break hide though, then hit the next target), then on Doms, then whoever is left and looks tempting.

For MMs with the new Bodyguard feature, it's probably the only AoE you will have. Stacked with CE for -movement when they're near you, I'd hit BU, cast it at your feet and it should wipe out at least the lower-tier minions. It can also be good for stalkers and high-defense melee toons, defensively...the power auto-hits, and thus automaticly applies it's -movement and -recharge to the opposing player. Again, stacked with CE in melee range, it's a powerfull auto-hitting slow effect that will make foes miserable. If you're in a duke-out with a Regen, for instance.

For all location-click powers, (like TP Self and Foe), I recomend binding them to a letter off of your primary action bar (1-0 on the number bar). This is to reduce effective cast time...all you have to do is move the curser where you want to case the power, click the letter, click the mouse, and you're good to go. Example: To bind it to the letter G, input the text in the following brackets: { /bind g powexec_name "Ice Storm"}. So any G+left click will set Ice Storm to cast.

**note**: Ice is not yet high enough to have taken/tested this power. If it sucks or I don't like it, I will note that in posts following this guide. I'm currently grinding my way up right now on Live. But, let's be honest...this isn't rocket-science. We've all seen other people use some permutation of this power anyways. Of the more skippable powers, first is Block of Ice, then Ice Storm.
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The Builds: This section got a total revamp with i7. There are several reasons for this. First, I feel taunt, in it's current form, on test, is now HIGHLy situational and it really divides the builds. You either have to take Taunt, slot the hell out of it, plan on using it, or skip it entirely and throw some more Scranker goodies in there. Essentially, there are 2 ways to go...a Focussed Accuracy approach, or a Leadership approach. I would not advise dueling with a melee toon without one of these tools.

This is Joe-tanker. The generic Ice/EM build that's been around a long time. It's got Focussed Accuracy and Aid Self. Many of the veteran pvp guys will tell you it's THE Ice build (or at least some variation thereof) to duel with.

I've gone a bit nuts with the HOs and slotting, but you should be able to make it work for your budget. Ice ran a version of this for a long time, at lvl 45, with NO HOs at all.

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name: Focussed Accuracy Build
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
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01) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(1) Cyto(25) Cyto(43)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Hoarfrost==> Heal(2) Heal(3) Heal(3) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Rechg(25)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(5) Slow(5)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Bone Smasher==> Nucleo(8) Acc(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Rechg(11) Rechg(15)
10) --> Taunt==> Rechg(10) Rechg(43) Acc(46) Acc(48) Taunt(48) Taunt(48)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14) Run(15) Micro(50)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16) Jump(17) Jump(17)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) Cyto(19)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20) Heal(21) Heal(21)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(23) EndMod(23)
24) --> Aid Other==> Rechg(24)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> EndMod(26) EndMod(27) EndMod(27) Rechg(40) Rechg(42) Rechg(43)
28) --> Aid Self==> Heal(28) Heal(29) Heal(29) IntRdx(31) IntRdx(34) IntRdx(37)
30) --> Build Up==> Membrane(30) Membrane(31) Membrane(31)
32) --> Hibernate==> Heal(32) Heal(33) Heal(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Nucleo(35) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Rechg(37) Rechg(37)
38) --> Total Focus==> Nucleo(38) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> Cyto(41) Cyto(42) Cyto(42)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Nucleo(44) Acc(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(46)
47) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(47)
49) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(49) Jump(50) Micro(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
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Even this is fairly customizable. I never really liked SJ on Ice, so Permafrost would work there as well, or Torrent if you felt you had to. Attack slotting is variable as well. You can go with 3 acc slotting, 3 damage, and then put the rest in recharge. I don't recomend slotting for endurance in attacks, to be honest, your endurance should be covered by your passive slotting. Or you can go with 2 acc, 2 recharge, 3 damage, or any permutation you can afford. I would never go less than 2xaccuracy and 3xdamage worth of SO level enhancements on any attack though, for pvp.

Below is the build I've had the most fun with. It's almost exclusively a team/zone build. He's purpose-built for RV, in fact.

It ditches Taunt, and with it one of my last excuses to take FA. Instead, it goes with the Ice epic, which I'll be talking about later, and the more team-friendly Leadership pool. What it lacks, notably, is a self-heal...I've eschewed self-healage for ground speed and versatility. It's a team build...I should be able to get a heal or def/res buff, or something, from some teamate. He's heavy on damage support, packs a ranged punch, actually fares pretty well in 1v1, when needed, and is absolute hell to try to take a pillbox from.

He's also pretty damned solid in 2v2 and smaller team duels, but the above build would tend to perform better in 8v8 arena or for general 1v1, IMO.

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: Leadership Build
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(1) DefBuf(3) Cyto(3)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Hoarfrost==> Heal(2) Heal(7) Heal(7) Rechg(11) Rechg(11) Rechg(13)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(5) Slow(5)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9)
10) --> Hurdle==> Jump(10) Jump(43) Jump(46)
12) --> Assault==> EndRdx(12) EndRdx(13) EndRdx(15)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14) Run(15) Micro(34) <---will place you over the speed cap for SS, but still usefull for -movement.
16) --> Health==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) Cyto(19)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Tactics==> Cyto(22) Cyto(23) Cyto(23)
24) --> Vengeance==> Cyto(24) Cyto(25) Cyto(25)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) EndMod(31) EndMod(31) EndMod(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Membrane(28) Membrane(29) Membrane(29)
30) --> Swift==> Run(30) Run(37) Run(40)
32) --> Hibernate==> Heal(32) Heal(33) Heal(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Nucleo(35) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Rechg(37) Rechg(37)
38) --> Total Focus==> Nucleo(38) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
41) --> Chilblain==> Immob(41) Immob(42) Rechg(42) Rechg(42) Rechg(43) Immob(43)
44) --> Ice Blast==> Nucleo(44) Acc(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(46)
47) --> Ice Storm==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(50) Rechg(50) <---the most swappable of the powers.
49) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(49) Jump(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
---------------------------------------------

This IS a more HO-reliant build than the one above.

It's also important to note this is hardly a wimp in 1v1. He'll likely fair well vs many casters, and, by abusing your slows, you could probably outlast a lot of melee characters and get kills that way.

This build would fare a lot better vs a /Regen scrapper, btw, than the above build.

What makes this build work? Well, a lot of things. First, with IoPs that increase mez resistance, Ice can afford to carry around fewer BFs. It used to be, all I ever took into zones was 20 BFs. I didn't need healing, didn't need accuracy, didn't need anything but extra mez protection to prevent over-stacking. I could go weeks, literally, before having to leave a pvp zone and go restock.

With the ability to affect a controller/doms recharge and how much over-stacking opponents can realisticly do, plus increased passive mez protection, and the possibility of even MORE from Vengeance, Ice can afford to swap out some BFs from his belt and carry a few greens for when he really needs to heal. +25% HP to an Ice tank is a LOT of heal power, so carrying 5-10 of those and using them sparingly works wonders. I also recomend a few blues these days, to counter the double-thermal corrupter end drain assault manuever...it will basicly bottom out just about anyone in the game. Decide if you want to limp it out, but if I'm in the middle of NPCs, which is when it is most dangerous, I'll pop a blue and EA or hibernate the rest of my end back.

Note that I generally frown on inspiration-reliant builds. Ice was never meant to be one. Truthfully, I'd rather die and take the walk than pop a pill, if it comes to that. But it's worth knowing what you can have in your arsenal and how to play it out.

Given the limitations of Taunt and Aid-Self, and my own observations playing with both, I was eager to ditch them both. Taunt just doesn't seem like a good idea anymore. Tactics+Assault+Vengeance is a powerfull combo in teams. CJ + Hurdle + Swift + Slotted SS is a highly mobile ground combo with suprising vert ability. Other than hopping up skyscrapers and on top of the Atlas globe in RV, he can single-hop over building and so forth, so there's very little that's off-limits to him, and none of it is worth particular strategic value in any case.

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Other Versions:

Ice/EM vs Ice/SS:

Many people have asked me about other secondaries. I will say that the most usefull secondary OTHER than /EM I can think of would be /SS. As things currently stand, an Ice/SS would be much more usefull than my Ice/EM in Sirens Call, for instance. Ultimately I prefer the Ice epic over the Fire epic. Essentially the tradeoff is damage for -movement, -recharge, both of which stack well when you get in range and put CE on them. To see a comparison of Ice/SS/Fire and Ice/EM/Fire damage, check the following posts for my DPS/Burst comparo. Ultimately, SS gives up something like 30% in burst damage for, presumably, greater DPS and AoE damage.

SS vs EM Burst output:

I'm defining burst 2 ways, for this conversation...in 2-3s intervals likely for caster exchanges and chasing the ever-popular hoppers in pvp, and 11-12s, applicable to more melee-orientated duels.

Please note that, although I asked for reviews on the math here, and it turned up pretty sound, this is only an estimation and should be treated as such. Still, the end results are pretty clear, and show the different styles one should adapt for an SS build vs an EM build.

This is designed to be a look at maximum damage, with an eye on burst damage. All slotting choices assume max damage slotting and recharge where needed, hammi enhanced if necessary. In other words, all powers are assumed to have a 3x damage, 3x recharge slotting, which is only really practical with acc/dam hammis included if you actually want to be HITTING something. Endurance is not a major concern for Ice tanks anyways, so I'm not worrying about that variable, but I will say, from what I've seen in-game, SS doesn't appear to have any really noticiable end savings vs my EM tanks either.

SS attacks:

KO: 19.28, 27.2 w/ rage 9.44s w/hasten 12.83 w/o (2.23s activation)
FireBlast: 7, 9.9 w/ rage 2.26 w/hasten, 3.08 w/o (1.2s activation)
FireBall: 7.6, 10.7 w/ rage 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1s activation)
Haymaker: 8.88, 12.5 w/ rage 3.02 w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Jab: 3.68, 5.2 w/rage, 1.18 w/hasten, 2 w/o (1.07s activation)
RoF: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 3.77 w/hasten, 5.13 w/o (1.17s activation)
Char: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1.07 activation)
Rage: 1.17s activation

SS PvP Chain: This chain was tricky to design, especially for burst damage. SS simply does not lend itself to burst, especially w/o the EPPs. Hurl is junko both burst and DPS-wise, Footstomp has less damage than Haymaker at far more cost for being an AoE would hate to play an Ice/SS in between lvls 30 and 50. A jab+punch chain doesn't work either.

I think the chain would vary with opponent. For example, for an enemy resistant to smash/lethal I'd throw in either RoF or Char in place of haymaker. KO Blow's overly long recharge and activation means you cannot use it 2 times within a 11s period of time, and there is no 1-2-3 punch like EM has. On my EM tank, a great many squishier foes are dead within the first 3 shots after build up.

Also note that while the Energy set up below is more or less the optimized build for that setup, the SS+Fire EPP combo gives you variables. RoF has a much faster recharge than Char, and can be used as a ranged attack in an attack string, at the expense of the possibility of holding a target with Char in a crucial time. I do not recomend taking RoF AND Char, as they both eat up far too many slots when used together.

--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s Rage
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
27.2 (KO) 2.23s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
9.9 (blast) 1.2s
8.4 (RoF/Char) 1.07
10.7s (ball) 1s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
+
9.9 (blast) 1.2s (This is to equalize the effects of EM needing a BU for every burst chain and SS not...as you can see, even another attack doesn't even come close to evening the damage)

= 93.7 BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1500.74 HP worth of damage in the 11s window WITH rage activation included.

= 103.6BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1659.30 HP worth of damage in that same window with another attack instead of Rages activation included. Likely more "real world" a number.

NOTE: These calculations are not exactly correct! Because Fire Ball, Blast, and both of the Fire holds have a DoT component of 5 ticks, and issues with activation times and fitting in an efficient chain with the other variables, it is inevitable some of the ticks of damage will trail off the end of the chain.

"But Darth, won't KO be up again soon enough?!" Yep. Including activation, rage, and hasten, KO can be up 11.67s after it is first activated. While this made it impossible to include in a apples to apples comparison of SS and EM within a given amount of time, it is possible to slightly lengthen the amount of time looked at, which would likely be valuable vs melee foes. Variables and changes to the chain need to be made as well, if you plan on your target being there long enough long enough to get 2 KO blows off, or, in exchange, if you plan on him running as far as possible. Leading the chain with KO then blasting would be necessary then.

Energy Melee:

ET: 24.7, 37.4 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (1s activation)
TF: 19.3, 29.2 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (3.3s activation)
Bonemasher: 8.9, 13.4 w/ BU 3.02s w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Laser Eyes: 5.41, 8.2 w/ BU 3.08s w/hasten 2.26 w/o (1.67s activation)
Build-Up: 33.97 w/hasten, 46.17w/o (1.17s activation)

EM PvP Chain:
--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s BU
37.4 (et) 1s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
29.2 (tf) 3.3s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
8.2 (eyes) 1.67s
37.4 (et) 1s

= 139 BI after build up, with an 11.14s window. This includes build-ups activation time, and is contingent on the target remaining stationary for most of the chain AND the EM tank being lightning fast and perfect in the execution of this chain. I can tell you from experience most targets will pop a BF and move on if they know what's coming, and that's a powerfull advantage to then in that it radicly decreases your burst output by doing so.

= 97.91 without build up with a 9.97s window with this same string.

So you end up with 2177.04hp vs 1500.74hp (or 1659.30hp) worth of damage, before resistances are factored in.

That means SS is still doing only .69 (69%) of EMs damage in the first case, and .76 (76%) of EMs in the second case, in BURST modes of 11-12s.

To sum up, ANY EM string is going to be better both in a common 1-2s window in which you catch skilled squishies for a sec before they hop off, and an 11s window vs anything that doesn't hop off.

The SS combo will pull ahead in overall DPS, and probably EPS (endurance) as well. It succeeds at ranged damage too. There are utility-combinations and other factors that may want to be considered, such as taking Footstomp for the AoE knockup and some damage after toggle-dropping some enemies with Energy Absorbtion. Also good to hit stalkers with when they placate you and are after a friendly who's nearby. I liked clap on my brute in SC too, good for those squishies who got too close when taunted or something. Few squishies have resists to disorient.

*whew* Ok, so this is clearly NOT a representation of /em vs /ss tanks and their overall DPS. I suspect SS will pull ahead in engagements lasting over 15s but under 45s. My tank's battles ARE either under 15s or well over 45s, so I still think /em gets the nod.

(All math includes 3x slotting for damage/recharge, and assuming the character can deal with his own endurance/accuracy issues through HOs, which are pretty common)

Icicles:

Wow. Just wow. People still take this power. It's sad. Look, guys, I know everyone likes to sweat stalkers when they build. And, sure, one might think an Ice/SS with tactics or FA might have enough to-hit to help Icicles punch through. And maybe you're right. But I saw a bunch of Ice tanks with this during the Test event who I was promptly able to kill with my DM stalker regardless.

With stacked perception, our HP, blasts (to disrupt hide when you can see them), Hibernate to bail us out, BU to help us hit them, they're not really an issue. I 2-3 shot most stalkers in a BU chain.

So, yeah, I strongly disagree with those who want to take this and six-slot it as some kind of possible Stalker mitigation. It's just not worth it, guys. Stalkers fear me...I don't fear Stalkers.

Power Pools:

Power pools further differentiate one build from another. There is a lot of flexiblity here, but I always recomend Hasten and the Fitness pool at a minimum. Health/Stamina is simply TOO usefull, especially for a tank. Hurdle or Swift, slotted, helps with suppression issues, which can hurt a melee toon a lot. Hasten is simply TOO good to pass up for getting all those clickies around in time and tighting up an attack chain for difficult targets.

The Presence Pool can be a valuable asset. If you WANT to take a Taunt power, Challenge is a good one to pair with Intimidate. Challenge's recharge is naturally much lower than Taunts, but it's duration is lower and it's activation is slightly longer. IMO, Fears are pretty broken in this game...they are, effectively, a better immob power than any existing immobilization in the game. They are less commonly resisted and the enemy cannot run or counter until you attack him. Watch for villians to fear and then have a Stalker AS you, with the broken Chilling Embrace. It's a good strategy, the only real counters are to pop a BF ahead of the AS, or hibernate immediately after the AS, which can be risky if they get a scourge in. Ultimately, I'd love having a fear on Ice, but it's a bit hard to wedge in there, especially with an eye on travel powers and the medicine pool. Play around and see what works for you. In general, I do NOT recomend it mainly because most experienced duelers will probably pop a BF or be able to escape the effects, and you have to significantly re-work either a FA or a Leadership build to fit it in. For a one-trick set, it's not worth it, but if you are going to take and slot one of the taunts in place of the Taunt power, then it's worth a look.

For a solo build, the Medicine pool can do very well. Solo, I don't find myself NEEDING a heal in between Dull Pain and Hibernate very often at all, and in teams I should have buffs/heals at my disposal, so I don't prefer it for my build. It's very much a YMMV power though, and I now recomend it for most serious arena duelers. Note that my team builds above do not have it...with so much toggle-debuffing going on, that no amount of interuption reduction can break through, and my general impressions of team pvp in RV, I have elected NOT to include it in my zone builds. With IoPs for added mez protection, I just bring a few greens for the occasions when I might have wanted a heal, and enjoy the use of other powers in the meantime.

Leadership/Tactics is covered elsewhere. Assault and Tactics Fear/Placate/Taunt res to a whole team is a good deal, though.

Tp Foe can still be a great help to an Ice tank. In i7 it got a nerfed a tad and I generally don't recomend it anymore for 50v50 pvp.
<ul type="square">[*]At the 40 cap in Warburg, I used it to make up for my lack of dedicated vertical movement power and lack or ranged attacks. Usually, if ppl are out of range of TP Foe I'm not really that worried about them anyway.

That being said, anyone who PvPs without TP Foe on a bind is silly, IMO, especially for a melee toon. Tp Foe is interruptable, and it's important to recognize your interruptions when you slot the power. For instance, I recomend 2x interupt redux, which is NOT, IMO, enough to get through a fire DoT attack or Caltrops. It is enough to get one off between most melee or ranged attack chains. My interest in slotting for redux is reduced by the fact that NO amount of redux will let you TP Foe within the influence of a slow power OR a debuff. This includes any rad, dark, or sonic debuffs, and notably snowstorm from the controller/defender crowd. The only way to get around these are to break perception, and by the time you do that you might as well have chased down the original target anyway.

I bound mine to "T", which is close to my movement keys. When a target runs, I moved my left finger over a key and brought their butts back. Target the ground near you and cue up either ET, TF, or, if you've taken it, stun. With good players you'r only likely to get one shot in, so make it a good one. The bind looks like this { /bind t powexec_name "Teleport Foe"}.

Also, in burg, with boating squishies who super-jump when teleported, you might try going under the little bridges by the beach, which are close quarters and teleport them into there. They'll start to jump automaticly, confused, hit the underside of the ledge 5ft up, and you'l have em dead with a Build Up combo before they figure it out. This is just one example, I'm always looking for spots like these to use TP foe in. The pools in Warburg are also great for Stone brutes/tanks who won't come out of granite, but weren't smart enough to take TP too. With no jump, they can't escape the pool unless they drop both granite AND rooted (you know, they're mez protection?) Getting them to drop that, pray they don't have BF, and hit em with ET+TF as soon as they pop out.

Additionally, you can now use TP Foe to pull a MM away from his minions and Body Guard and put the hurting on him. Note that you can just pull the MM around a corner to break the LoS requirement, you don't have to pull him the whole 60+ feet away if room does not permit.[/list]

Travel Powers:

I'm also a big believer in Super-Speed for Icers. It allows me to be extremely mobile as a gound force. If you DO need to run, you can, and at great speed. Your resistance to slows means it takes so many opposing players to slow you down they might as well have killed you instead. When teamed, I need my teamates to drop repel based toons, then I SS in with BU and put em the rest of the way down. Ice/EM is largely about combat support in teams, and SS gets you in and out faster. Cue SS, hit "f" to follow, and zoom in on stuff till their dead or you are. If they go over vertical objects, I have hurdle and possibly CJ for respectable "hops". If they want to hang out on top of a building, it's all good...they're effectively out of combat, not annoying my team, and I could give a flip what they do up there. *shrugs*

Maybe you noticed I have no dedicated vertical power on my pvp builds and wonder why. 2 reasons... a) Arena duels offer temp powers, and b) I don't find them really needed in RV...SS + Hurdle + Swift is enough. I blast stuff from range as I zoom in, and if it's flying/hovering I immob and drop it with Chillblain. If things are out of range of either of those powers, I can usually drop them out of the air or they're jumping around with CJ...if they do it long enough, you can overstack them at the same time you're slowing them with Ice blasts.

IF, however, you choose to go SS/Teleport instead, remember to get a good set of binds. I find teleport unwieldy. When I need to use it as an escape hatch, I probably don't have the endurance or are being interupted too much to use it as such. While a nice value at only one more power than Teleport Foe, you can say the same for SS. I find it easier to follow highly mobile toons with SS, but SS does require you to take a vert power, and your main other option is SJ. It IS nice for repel, especially a Mind/Storm who will repel your butt around the arena like a hockey puck with Telekenisis and Hurricane.

All builds/ideas are valid. I'm not here to get into an argument over what is better, because the truth is another one of Ice/Ems strengths is that it's a build with enough room to be good at a few different things. As noted, the above build is my all-rounder, what I run in teams and solo. There are other builds, some which focus on blasters and controllers which I call "anti-caster", and others which would strengthen you vs. melee toon. Each gives up something in opportunity cost to focus on one side or the other, and I have simply found my build above to be the best match for my playstyle and common pvp matches.

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Focussed Accuracy vs Leadership:

In general, you will need SOME kind of passive to-hit buff other than build-up when dueling. FA is obviously superior to tactics at what it does, especially solo. However...and I don't know how to say this...but the Leadership is great for ganking! I mean, stackable to-hit, +dam, and the possibility of vengeance when grouped up and working on a single foe or small group is very powerfull. Tactics is fairly popular now, and I've seen cases of triple-stacked Tactics melt through Overloaded or Retsu villians who thought they could tank it up.

I mean, to be honest, even with FA, Elude Scrappers and a lot of players with skill could simply hop away from my BU anyways. I think FA's usefullness for Tanks is over-rated...even if we hit, it takes quite a bit to chew through a Brute or Scrappers HP anyways. I'm not saying it wasn't do-able, but it wasn't the knife-through-butter a lot of people like to make it out to be, either. And, meantime, is there anyone else you should have been killing or anything else you should have been doing while you were engaged in a 1-3 minute melee-fest? Probably!

FA is uber for scrapper-hunting though, I will say that. Since we can 2-3 shot them with BU, getting those hits in and making them a sure thing has definite value in those cases.

To overview:

Focussed Accuracy:
To-Hit: 18.5% to-hit, base, 28.68% with 3x SO slotting. (Dev confirmed numbers)
Endurance: Listed at .59 endurance per tick...greater than 2x the standard defense toggle. With 3x SOs...it's down to .3 EPS. (I've heard tell this number is wrong and under-states the end cost. Suffice to say, it's a frikin PIG of endurance, be prepared.)
Non-rooting activation
10s recharge.

Tactics:
To-Hit: ~7% for melee toons and blasters, ~11% with 3x SOs.
Endurance: Listed at .4 endurance per tick (.21 with 3x SO slotting)
Roots on activation
15s recharge

However, tactics is very team friendly and it + Assault make a pretty nice package, helping out with fear/placate/taunt as well as upping your damage and the damage of all those around you.

For a team-tank, Tactics + Assault isn't a bad choice at all, especially since it looks like leadership is gaining popularity and there's a greater chance of stacking the buffs in teams.

Assault is +10.5% to the BASE value of damage for all attacks. However, because it does not apply to enhanced values, it is roughly +5% to your real damage output. And any teamates within a 60ft AoE. Assault also comes with a Taunt/Placate res which is nice, if not over-the-top usefull.

Vengeance. Ooh baby. The bad boy of the pvp world. Thankfully the Devs have put the kabosh on the vengeance-stacking teams, which is good, but it's still a uniquely powerfull tool, especially in zones.

Defense: +25% base ( +39%, slotted! That's roughly +70% def for us Ice tanks when stacked with shields...not shabby at all, when things get rough)
Accuracy: Unknown value, but it is "to-hit". When activated, I assume it + tactics puts me at or near FA levels, when slotted. When I can confirm the number, I will post it.
Duration: ~90s or so.
Recharge: 300s
Other: +Damage, Heal, Disorient, +Hold/Immob/Sleep/Confuse/Taunt/Knockback protection (!!!). Essentially an AoE Fortitude + Clear Mind without the perception.

Ok, so it's an uber power. But it's contingent on someone dying to use. Obviously not desirable for a tank in pve. And also not a big priority for an nigh-unkillable taunt bot who plans on keeping everyone alive in pvp. But that's not what we are, so I'd take a look at it.

I have noticed that people tend to die in pvp anyways. *shrugs* Really no stopping it. 2x stalkers striking a nearby squishy at once. You can really only taunt 1 of em off, even if you have it and it hits (and they don't pop a BF!). Pretty much anyone really dedicated to ignoring a tank can. So you might as well put the "keep everyone alive" mindset behind you and focus on Vengeance.

A lot like "I will Avenge You" from GW, this power really turns you into a juggernaut. Especially when combined with IoPs, you're looking at serious mez protection, very nice defense (for a tank, +70% is pretty godly to be running around with), a heal to kick things off...prepare to bring the pain.

If you ARE going to take and use Vengeance, it's nice to be able to give it a few other people as well. A lot of times, in arena, the maps can be so big, and with no real focus point, people can get too spread out. But in zones, say someone dies assaulting as pill-box...everyone's pretty much clustered in the 60ft AoE anyways, pop it and let the good times roll. Hell, pop a BU and throw a vengeance+BU+assault enhanced AoE in there, just for kicks! RAWR!

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Endurance Management:

Ok, one of the key endurance management tricks is to keep your enhancements in stamina as green as reasonably possible. With the base recovery rate and stamina, I can run all of my toggles and have a healthy, positive recovery rate. This ends up working out well for pvp, becuause my damage is usually done in bursts as other squishies tend to run as hard as they can, or simply die and save me some endurance/time in chasing them down. In protracted melee duels, they usually become a "war of attrition" for the other guys endurance. Very few melee toons can effectively kite an Ice tank...they run up against our mass of hp and our hibernate strategy. So they'll be motivated to stay in melee range, and they'll keep you fed with enduance. Once they start to get low on endurance, try to time it so you can get a Energy Absobtion (to toggle-drop them) +BU+ET+TF string off. Most melee types will end up being mezzed, though it may take awhile for SR scrappers and Regen scrappers/stalkers can take a resistance to disorient effects power.

You should not particularly need endurance or be winded vs ranged toons. You're positive recovery, even with all toggles running, is enough to support your brief blips of burst damage when you try to put them down.

It can also be effective to bind some powers to mouse buttons. For example, if you go a SS/SJ route, I like to bind SJ to my center mouse wheel. Since I don't use it that often, it's a simple click to turn it off/on, resulting in a good saving of endurance per second if you're not actually using the power anyways. Note that CJ has almost a non-existant end cost, so I don't ever see many reasons to turn if off.

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Other PvP Goodies:

There are many things one can do get the "edge" in pvp. A few are listed below.

Hammidon and Accolades:

The following is a list of all the HO enhancements available in the game. In the high, high-end pvp in this game, a builds ultimate power relies on how much use they can get out of the powers they have. HOs help make that happen, increasing slotting efficiency. People who point out that HOs are now only 2xSOs are missing the point...a controller, for example, can put 6 HOs in a power and cap out the enhaceable aspects of 4 of that powers aspects. An Ice tank, on the other hand, can only really put 3x HOs in a defense power, capping the enhancement value of 2 of it's aspects.

Nucleolu Exposure= Dmg/Acc <--- 1st priority
Centriole Exposure= Dmg/Rng
Peroxisome Exposure= Dmg/Mez
Endoplasm Exposure= Acc/Mez <--- Of note if you wish to try a build based around "Stun" or for stacking immobs.
Golgi Exposure= Heal/End
RibosomeExposure= Dmg resist/End
Microfilament Exposure= Travel speed/End
Lysosome Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/Acc
Enzyme Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/End
Membrane Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/Attack rate <--- 2nd priority
Cytoskeleton Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/End <--- 1st priority
*Mez is any holds, stuns, sleep, disorient, and immobilize. Slow and knockback are not considered as Mez.

I think the priorities on HOs goes something like this:

a) Things that affect accuracy/to-hit and damage
b) Increasing endurance efficiency.
c) Slot reduction to put more slots into hurdle/swift and other powers that help in pvp, reducing suppression and ultimately upping your offense/defense through mobility.

In addition to HOs, I also recomend these accolades in pvp:

Freedom Phalanx: +10% hp.Requirements here.
Portal Jockey: +5% HP and +5% Endurance. Requirements
Atlas Medallion: +5 max endurance. Requirements

(For those wondering, +15% HP to our base, at lvl 50, is 2155hp, buffable to 3426hp with slotted Hoarfrost. Good times...)

Hibernoob · 06-04-2006 04:45 PM

Items of Power:

Items of power have been activated for i7 and are another edge you can have in PvP. As of now, not all of the IoPs have been discovered.

Common ones Include:
Monument of Fury: +2% Damage Buff
Monument of Iron: +1% psychic damage resistance.
Name?: +1% XP gain
Name?: +1% Reduced Debt

Rare Items of Power Include:
True Furnace: Gives everyone in supergroup mode +10 end, and provides your base 1 million power.
"crystal of resilience": Provides everyone in supergroup mode protection to immobilize, sleep, hold, and disorient. [note: Bug Report suggests that when working in the base edit mode, the iop was not called "crystal of reslience" but "monument of iron", but it provided the protection from status effects.
Book of Rularuu : complete chronicles of Rularuu that give all SG members 20% Debt Protection while in SG mode. (aka "the True Book"?)
"Book" - unknown (different graphic then the book of rularuu)
Heart - unknown
Cube - unknown

In general your SG will likely be drooling over the Crystal of Resilience (because every squishy has wanted inherent mez protection from something other than accrobatics FOREVER now). Do not neglect the Monument of Fury though...you can have up to 5 IoPs at any one time in the base, so 2-4 of these can really add up. In addition to assault, I had several IoPs on test and Ice was hitting notably harder. Say 8% from IoPs and 10% from assault...ouchie. My big guns really do hurt. Toss a Vengeance in there...whooboy...

If you don't belong to a SG, I highly recomend one, even just for PvE. My SG on Virtue actually isn't that huge on PvP, but I've stuck with them over the years cause they're a good bunch of guys and the SG is run right. The CoX staff seems to be highly encouraging team play and SG bases and such...better to just go with the flow, especially if the IoPs are going to be of such power. I've found that SGs who coordinate with TeamSpeak or Ventrillo and have played together lots can do a lot to take over a zone. The efficiency created by working as a team is phenomenal, and is definately a note-worthy pvp edge.

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Main pvp threats:

<ul type="square">[*]Scrappers:
---Primaries: People highly over-rate DM on just about every toon, imo. I never worry about DM, ToF is their one trick, and if you know how fears work you're good. If a DM uses ToF on you, wait until his next strike and simply hop up and down if nothing else. With Hurdle he'll be getting enough "out of range" responses to mean significant damage reduction on our side of things. In general, DM or DA tends to be rather tight on energy, so just EA and whale on em until they fall down. Spines simply doesn't have the damage for you, and they're usually too busy kiting to really bug me much. They need to double team you at least to be worth bothering with. No, the one to sweat is the big-mama melee damage-dealer of the bunch, Broadsword. It's damage is sick and they're going to laugh at your defenses with FA. They have enough acc and burst to take you down, and /SR and /Regen have the endurance to keep it going, especially with hammies.

---Secondaries: Regen is going to be tough for you, simply because the tanker BI is does not allow enough burst damage to put these toons to bed before they can regen on you. /SR is tough too, as they'll resist your slow aura and have great, often suppression-proof movement speed. With your acc/dam HOs and FA, you can get it done. Don't forget that /SR is end heavy, and an EA at the right moment can drop about 1/2 his defense total in toggles and let you get your groove on, whereas it's extremely unlikely you'll be able to end leach a good regen scrapper through Quick Recovery and the oft-used Stamina. Vs Regen, it's actually very nice to have the Ice epic and get some slows and serious -recharge in there to give you some chance to get those last shots in. Ultimately, it takes so much end to take down a regen it usually ends up being a very close fight, and often a draw.

[*]Controllers/Defenders: Much more dangerous in teams than solo. A high level, hammied out Fire/Rad will likely give you fits solo or on teams. On teams, learn to start taking out the defenders first, especially empaths. They're used to it, and they'll be good at NOT dying, so that's a fun game of cat and mouse. If you've gone with the Ice epic, disrupt caster tempo with Chillblain + Ice blast as much as possible to mess them up. Some controllers are tempo-sensitive enough they can't over-stack mez shields very well, even with HOs, if you pelt them with enough -recharge. Not to mention, if you're chasing them long enough and Chillblain finally punches through, you'll have a second or two to SS up and pelt them a good one.

[*]Masterminds: Now belong on this list because they are often able to out-last enough to take down tough opponents. In teams, BG ends up working against them, because the pets won't focus damage when in Defense mode. Be aware that the pets have to be in-range for BG to work, and have to be in Defense. If the MM is attacking a turret or something, it's a good time to rush in with SS, hit BU on the way, and try to take them down before they can switch to defense mode.

While I think BGs percentages are probably over-powered, I do like that the Devs took an interesting approach that involves knowledge, skill, and playstyle to get around rather than some of the slap-dash fixes they've done in the past.

Again, I recomend Ice-Storm, good mix of BU and your damage attacks. I'd keep chillblain on the MM to slow down those that heal their pets and keep them in some -movement for when they choose to run. Killing through the pets is somewhat impractical for a EM, but a SS could probably use a Foostomp/Handclap and Ice-Storm strategy to blow through the pets and KO the MM.

In general, WH is simply not strong enough that I'd bother to take it in pvp, ever.

[*]Stalkers: We were once the proud papa of the only truly stalker-immune build out there. You have perception. You have massive HP. You have decent defense. You can phase. You HAD an auto-hit slow aura that interupted AS. This had limits, however, in that only YOU are really immune. It's very tough for me to save teamates from stalkers, especially smart ones working in teams to pick off squishy ATs. It's the classic rock-paper-scissor of 1v1 pvp in this game, but since most toons hate stalkers, I just thought it was worth mentioning these guys are no sweat for you, but ARE a threat to any team you may be on, so they still deserve a spot on this list.

Now, recently AS was made un-interuptable by debuff powers. The fate of this is up in the air, but on test they are currently able to AS through CE. It's no biggie, 1v1, still deal-able, but is fairly rough in teams. Circeus and I have had a few discussions on this, but I'll reserve further comment on the CE vs AS issue until decisions have been made and communicated to the user-base.
[/list]

PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank:

<ul type="square">[*]vs. Melee toons: I often rush in there and get off a preemptive EA. They're usually sitting there thinking "whew, thought he was gonna attack me, but the suckers letting me get the first hit in! great!". And that's true too. I want them to get the hit in, cause once i'm down to 2/3 or so HP I hit Hoarfrost to get my +HP and heal in then hasten to get everything charging up on me. This also optimizes my end leach...by opening with it, I take away 1/3 his bar on average. His attacks will take more, and if I'm lucky EA will be up again in time for me to drop his toggles and get a BU+ET in, or a TF at the least. These duels can be long, and EA is usually my margin of victory.

Tank-damage sucks, and melee toons will usually be able to survive your chain. These fights take time, and the energy drain is your big toggle-dropper. Choose your moment to strike, wait till ET+TF+BU are up if possible, then drop em and rock em.

Many melee toons out there are only tier-9 fighters...they'll pop their Unstoppable, Granite, Elude, w/e on you and then think they're going to win cause you can't hurt them much. Well, the defense-sets can be countered to some degree by FA+ BU, but there's not much you can do vs Unstoppable or Granite...I just wait Unstoppable out (tanks and brutes...neither can damage you too much, 1v1). Watch for their crash and own them. That's the problem with teh crash powers, IMO...eventually they're a death-sentence in solo and team pvp.

Don't try to out-tank a granite user. Ignore them instead. WHat are they going to do...chase you? Their damage sucks, their mobility blows, and taunt is counterable by assault and moving around. There's no reason to bother with them, so just ignore them. Many granite users are so desperate they resort to verbally taunting the zone, calling people runners, w/e. It's a fairly obvious ploy, and stems from their frustration about not being able to deal with much of anything except people silly enough to try to take them down in granite. It's like someone sitting in phase and calling everyone else a **ssy. Just ignore them and take their team down around them for the ultimate embarassment.

As with blasters, it's worth your time to avoid a scrappers peak-damage periods. When I see a BS scrapper hit BU, even though I know I can probably live through it, its more efficient to just move back some, make them kite in and out of my slow aura and suppression, try to waste some of it. No need to take someones uber attack-string to the face if avoiding it means you spend less time in hibernate and more time hitting back with your own damage. Especially if you're not returning damage of your own, hell with it, go mobile and pepper em with Ice blasts for -recharge/movement while ET/TF/KoB recharges...whatever works.

[*]vs High Acc melee toons: This gets it's own section...because builds with acc/dam hammis and focussed acc are so common, a mediocre-defense build like Ice is going to have some issues with these boys. Specificly Spines and Broadsword. Only option here is to try to put em down 1st...you'll be taking a lot of damage to your HP, so use it as best you can and hibernate often. You have a lot more than they do, but they'll do more damage. If they seem weak to slows, back up a bit if your about to die and have none of your "bail-out" powers up...let the slow aura make them work to close into melee range again. This is really the only reason I advocate spending the time and energy to get hammis and FA yourself. If no other toons had it either, you'd get by fine without it.

Ice epics can help you keep at range, and/or Aid-Self help quite a bit as well, in 1v1 situations. SR with FA is the most dangerous to you, since they will largely ignore your slows, keep up good damage, have Elude, usually aid-self, and will do good damage. A good BS/SR is a tough duel.

[*]vs. Blasters: Similar to high acc melee toons, getting the 1st strike is very helpfull. I don't recomend using BU on the charge, b/c they may very well fly out.

If you're going to TP Foe em in, hit Total Focus while the TP animation goes off and you're guaranteed a shot in before they take off, provided the accuracy roll succeeds. They may be 75ft away in mid-SJ when they get hit, but they'll usually fall and then you just SS in and do some more punching. I usually wait until they're stunned to hit BU...also, keep in mind, it's better, when you know they're not going anywhere, to open up with Bonemasher and maybe Barrage to whittle their HP down...I only use the big guns when I know they're going down. Why? Defiance. If I let a blaster get away, and it's a capable, high-mobility type, he'll be using defiance-enhanced damage to pound away at my [censored] for the rest of the duel, until one of us dies. ET and TF are more than enough to take out 1/2 blaster HP, so I usually try to save them for a 1-2 punch to put the blaster to bed and save myself the HP. The best ones will be highly mobile, as I've said, so be sure to move too, in only semi-predictable patterns. Keep a big gun attack ready to fire if they're at full hp, hope for a stun to keep em grounded. If they try to just jump around and pepper you from range, you have the defense and HP to live till you can hibernate, and they'll eventually try other methods of taking you down. I mainly take TP foe for blasters.

If you're NOT going to take TP Foe, pepper them with blasts and -recharge, immobs. Eventually they'll either land to take a stand or run accross the whole zone. Smart ones will realize they don't want to be anywhere in melee with you and will keep their distance.

Warning: Learn to watch for the animations. Aim is a yellow version of Build Up. Build Up looks like...build up. Either one is trouble, and some pop both at once. Stay mobile for that time, they're looking to get a hit in and detoggle you. Let them work for it. Even if they do, luck and keeping an eye on your toggles means this isn't too big a deal, but it definately helps to know your animations and know what's coming.

NOTE: Blasters are notorious for running around with 20 breakfrees to counter mezzing of all kinds. While this is not the worst thing in the world, it basicly means you won't be able to stun them too much, so you'll be fighting a highly mobile duel vs this AT.

[*]vs Controllers: High level ones are the pain. Fire/rad is bad for you. The debuffs to acc and damage are so powerfull you will likely be in a LOT of trouble without acc/dam hammis. You need to mez them, and, like blasters, they'll be carrying a crapload of BFs just in case. /storm and /ff will repel the hell out of you. Mind/son is capable of the same. Additionally, and worse, for us, is the fact that a lot of controllers have hammis and a rather ungodly ability to overstack mez protection. Hibernate is some use here, since it lets old holds wear off while the controller is unable to apply new ones. This is also the reason I bother with accrobatics, little extra insurance never hurts. The APPs do a lot of damage, and lead to the whole "blastroller" phenomenon in the late game. With acc/dams and FA, you should have enough acc to punch through debuffs. Hit em hard, hit em fast, then take a rest while they respawn and do it all over again. I only carry breakfrees vs these toons...I feel hammis and high level controllers are fairly broken, and since they're going to be using BFs anyway, might as well even the playing field.

Again, the Ice or Fire epics help a lot, being more "anti-caster" based. Controllers often have hard times over-stacking you if you stay mobile and pepper them with the -recharge blasts. Keep them on the defensive when possible.

TK: There's a fairly one-sided dynamic to users who take TK and slot the hell out of it...they can essentially repel you all over a whole map. TK is a fairly broken power, IMO, because it takes 4 BFs to counter the repel. No other effect in the game requires that many. Nonetheless, this isn't a huge deal in teams, as they'll be TKing someone else or wasting a TK on you and someone will come along and light them up while they try to over-stack you. In any case, when TKed, first, hit them with your immob. It has a shorter range and they'll shortly be pushing you out of it. Then hit hasten and blast away at them. Keep an eye on hold icons in your corner...if they over-stack you, it often takes 2 BFs to get out, so it's cheaper to wait till you see 3 holds up and then hit a BF for an extra layer of mez protection for 30s. Like I said, keep the -recharge on them as much as possible and wait for them to make a mistake like coming in close (for EAs drain if you're REALLy lucky). If you simply want to get rid of the holds, hit hibernate and wait for them to dissipate. THis can be double-sided...the controller will want to turn off TK to get it recharging and to save on End, but at the same time will be worried about you popping out and smacking them. Wait to see what they do before deciding if you want to stay in hibernate the whole time.

[*]vs Tanks: O.o! Why are you fighting our tanky brothers? :-D.

Let's assume they're niave and misguided, and have allied themselves with the wrong side. An Ice vs a Stone tank is an exercise in futility. It's always a draw. Anyone else you can take, some easier than others. Ice is the premier tank, with Stone behind it, in that it's more survivable but less of a factor in pvp, thanks to it's severe movement issues. Like I said above, just wait out Unstoppable and ignore them for awhile. End leach the crap out of attacking Fire tanks, that's their weakness.

[*]vs Brutes: "Tank-lite", I call em. They like that.

Anyways, be aware that, b/c they like to be in melee range, they'll often play right into your hand. I've fought brutes 3v1 before and won, while they were running Overload and other various tier 9s. How? Well...think about it, you should know by now. 1st, there's not a brute set out there with slow resistance. So, if they're in melee, trying to build fury, they're actually working against themselves. They'd be better off kiting me, but I'd still hibernate out on them before they could kill me. No win for them, but better than being in melee with me. Why? Well, in addition to CE, they were also all in range of EA all the time. That's right...I was mighty low on end from whaling on these guys, but they were right there to lend me their endurance when I needed. One was SS, with perma-rage running, so he hit rather a lot, but with no endurance, he had to save up his strikes of I'd detoggle him with end leach and BU+ET+TF him. Long story short, all of a brutes goals in melee combat play right into your strengths atm, so just go with it. Remember, however, when 1v1, you're better off riding hibernate for the full 30s and running out their Overload/Unstoppable/whatever timer than popping in and out trying to get damage. Just camp. If they call you cheap, just point out that you dont have an overload and they do, and ask them if they think that's fair. *shrugs*

Note that Brutes are supposedly suffering a bug on pvp fury generation. With our tempo-controlling and phase abilities...I don't see it being a huge issue when fixed, but it's worth keeping and eye on.

I have also not had the pleasure of dueling any elec brutes. I give them a nod as a possibly difficult foe, but it'll mainly be a challenge to outwait their Unstoppable-esque power while our -recharge, damage, and end drain are largely mitigated. This is the reason teamwork is a good thing.

For the Ice epic builds, Overload can be annoying. In general...just ignore them. Their damage isn't scary to you, your field should really lower their DPS and fury. I mean, you CAN go toe-to-toe if you need to, but, in a zone, it's largely a waste of your time/energy to bother to whittle them down. Much the same can be said for any melee toon in their tier 9, to be honest.
[*]vs Stalkers: They're really not a threat to you. In teams, keep an eye out. I used to keep Taunt on the #1 button, and it was the first thing I hit when I saw one, then my attack string. If you're Taunt + FA, then I would still do that.

The defense sets will have a tier 9 with good defense, so keep BU ready too. I once turned off CE and all shields and took an AS straight to HP. With hoarfrost up, it took roughly 1/2 my hp, and even had no other option been available, the stun did not last long enough to prevent me from hibernating before he was able to take the other half.

Some tips for dealing with Stalkers:

--Use stacked perception from Tactics/FA and Glacial armor

--If you went Ice or Fire Epic, blast them with DoTs whenever you see one in hide. A lot of times they won't have activated their tier 9s yet and it will punch through and disrupt their Hide. Use the DoTs so they can't even begin to re-hide until the last tick of damage has gone off. This is, IMO, even more effective in teams than Taunt, because it reveals the stalkers to your teamates at the same time it nuetralizes a lot of their damage. Many, MANY stalkers will just run off if they've been revealed, which is perfect for you and your team.

--Use fences and know your powers. AS has a 4s animation, 2s of which is it interuptable by direct attack, and then it does a final LoS check before firing off. As with all melee attacks, as long as the target is in range when activated, range is irrelevant, the power will go off. However, with SS and Hurdle, (ideally CJ), you can often simply watch a stalker AS and hop a fence, turn a corner, w/e. If a Stalker is near you, remember to set yourself up with these natural counter-measures and to stay fleet-of-foot.

--BU+ET+TF are very usefull to punch through the defensive sets. Regen is actually the most resilient vs an Ice tank, and their biggest weakness is endurance. Once they pop IH, you might as well save your attacks for 1 min and go evasive.

--If you are going to take an AS to the chest, then just wait to pop Hoarfrost, if it's up. Use the heal to recoup some of the damage in addition go getting more HP to play with. Nothing annoys a stalker like getting you down to 1/4 and seeing it pop back up to ~2/3 and knowing you still have hibernate to pop if the poop hits the fan.

In general, they're just not an issue, 1v1. In teams, they still have their place and will get the kill on you more than any other villian class, as befits their role as a primary damage dealer. Just remember, YOUR job in teams is to disrupt their job, so keep that in mind.

[*]vs Other Villian ATs: Since brutes and Stalkers are the real pvp threats for you, I'm going to lump everyone else into this zone. Most Dominators and Corrupters are squishy enough for you to 2-3 shot em, and they don't make much of a duel. MMs with the repel field can be annoying. Bodyguard can make them time-consuming solo, and can end up being stalemates. Punchvoke and Taunt are being changed to affect pet AI, so look for that change as well. [/list]

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Team PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank: Your "role" in team pvp is now variable... a taunt-build should focus on Aggro Control----> Combat Support ----> Meatshield, while a non-taunt focussed tank should be= Combat Support ----> Aggro Control----> Meatshield.

Please note that these priorities have changed with the changes to taunt...I feel that punchvoke means your tank should be in there attacking and focussing on redirecting aggro that way, in addition to doing damage. Combat support also includes using slows/immobs/blasts from epics to help pick off people in small duels. They're a decent edge for victory and you should use them.

Remember, more than a "true" tank, Ice tanks are often forced into the role of Scranker in pvp, and we've had to adapt to the willy-nilly changes the Devs have forced on us. The bottom line is that the Devs keep really kicking aggro-control in the nuts for pvp. With the current tools available, in punch-voke, I feel a tank can do about as well as he's going to do for aggro control in pvp by simply attacking like normal.

Ice-Cubed racks up a respectable amount of kills in team duels. This is because EM is deadly in short range. When I end up, as often happens in team pvp, in a 2v1 situation where another team-mate and I are after one foe, I usually get the final kill with Build-Up and my two big guns. It is DEVASTATING to almost any toon to fight anyone else AND my ice tank. SS and Swift keep me highly mobile and always right there in the action. This is the reason I like to enhance my travel powers and the fitness inherents...mobility is a big part of my strategy.

Taunt:

I USED to recomend a six-slotted Taunt, 3x recharge 3x duration. Now, on test, the Devs would like us to roll a to-hit in pvp, in addition to changing the dynamics of Taunt itself. Now breaking LoS reduces Taunt duration as well.

In fact, a direct quote from my old guide:

"Much the same way a PvE team will be annoyed with a tank who eschews his role as aggro controller and meatshield and scranks, a pvp team will likewise be annoyed by a tank who does not taunt. An easily killable tank is just as annoying, so use the skills you used solo to stay alive and reduce the other sides kill count whenever possible by staying alive."

My how things have changed!

Why I would tend to skip taunt now:
<ul type="square">[*] The rooting 2.2s animation is highly inconvenient in mobile duels where you're chasing someone who is chasing someone else. It's like giving them a free 2.2s lead every 10-20s just so you can keep an aggro status effect on them that they are ignoring anyways.[*] Taunt has a range of 70ft. Challenge and Provoke are 60ft each. Slotting them for range is highly impractical. [*] Defense changes means it is possible to be relatively un-tauntable for large periods of time, thanks to defense. This also means one may have to pop build-up to get a taunt in...a really despisable state of affairs. Melee foes are most dangerous when in their teir 9 powers, and now it can be extremely difficult to limit that danger with Taunt.[*] People who you would taunt who are chasing other targets can still hit use the "follow" function to chase their target until the time wears off. If it functioned more like placate, and made it impossible to follow the opponent you had been following, THAT might be interesting.[*] PbAoEs and cones can be issues regardless of Taunt.[*] Smart arena players will probably use a BF if they were on the verge of getting a kill anyways, realizing that 1 BF v 1 kill = a good tradeoff. [/list]
This really changes my opinion on whether to bother with taunt or not. It's rooting animation and activation had always bugged me as a real damage reduction to an already low-damage class. What is with a 2.2s activation on a non-damaging power? Having to six-slot it and spam it hard was even worse, last issue. With it's range, it was of limited use vs high-speed casters. Now, having to roll a to-hit, I can't even recomend it without a steady to-hit buff from either Tactics or Focussed Accuracy if you want to continue to taunt-bot in pvp. Even if you do take it, slotting becomes a real issue. 2x acc, 2x duration, 2x recharge is probably a solid set-up. As you may have noted, a lot of the more successfull pvp builds get a lot of use out of HOs, and there is no HO that would help us here. Maybe if Taunt was considered a "mez", for HO purposes...

It is often ineffective to taunt a foe too much in pvp in hopes of drawing their aggro, as it will likely yield one of the two following results: Target chews a BF and continues on his merry way OR target ignores taunt, goes where he pleases and waits for taunt to wear off.

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PvE Ice Armor Tips:

Now that you have an idea how to fight with an Ice/em tank, "Darth," you ask, "how can I build and level one efficiently?" Well, Ice is definitely a build that needs a respec to pvp well. It's PvE and PvP concentrations are far too dissimilar. PvE, I USED to recommend WW as an extra control power, but it's recent nerf has pooched that idea entirely. I7 will help an Icers leveling issues somewhat, but some general tips include:
<ul type="square">[*]Defenses, hibernate, dull pain your main priorities. Team for damage, tanks make really boring solo toons anyway. I like to carry a pocket blaster with me at all times, PvE. Kinetics work well for you too, as, in high levels, between the two of you you should be able to drain an entire mobs endurance in short time, then clean up.[*]Offensively, focus on AoE power. This lets you solo, hold aggro for teams, and is basicly what your defenses are intended to have you do anyway. Ice is strongest when right in the middle of a pile of foes, using Energy Absorbtion for endurance and defense boosts, CE to minimize incoming damage and taunt the mobs, and likley BU+WH to put the AoE smackdown on em and buy me some time with some disorients. On teams, when PvE, for example, I'd run into the largest clump, hit EA, then DP, then BU+Whirling hands then taunt a far group OR, if it was especially dangerous, I'd skip the WH and just taunt the nearby guys and hibernate until the odds were trimmed down some and the debuffers had done their job and made things easier for me.[/list]
I've decided not to include a level by level guide to PvE. After reading the PvP guide, you should have an idea of how it all works in PvE anyway, and things like power pools and stuff should really be left up to the player. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to level, I'd go with whatever is fun for you.

However, if you are interested in such guides, I'd take a look at Ccelizic's i6 PvE guide for further PvE info. Circ has a guide on PvE taunting that is a good, quick read to understand how taunt works in pve as well. Circeus' Guide to Taunting

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One last thing...I frequently get "But Darth, what do you know about high level pvp? Your Icer is only 48!" Sure. I also pvp with my SG (when everyone else is on 50s with my Ice/EM tank. If I do ok at 45-48, I have no reason to think things are going to get worse with more HP and powers. I mean, I'm facing heroes with many more powers and slots than I have and still racking up good killcounts and doing all the other things tanks do in pvp, so I don't see the situation going downhill when I have more powers, HP, and slots. *shrugs*

People place too much emphasis on the level in this game, IMO, but, for what it's worth, Ice/EM is not a dueler that needs a full 50 levels to pvp well. I am planning on finishing Ice-Cubed, just waiting on the i7 changes to drag my [censored] out of the pvp zones and back into PvE. My advice for the 40+ game, however, is based on the advice of fellow tankers and should be considered sound.

Ice-Cubed will be speeding around as a 50 tank soon enough, just thought I'd dispell that little bit of nonsense ahead of time.

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About me: A college student at UCF, in Orlando, I play in my spare time. Ice-Cubed, my Ice/em tank, is my favorite toon in CoX, ever. I took him on in i3 or i4, as my 3rd or 4th tank. I was impressed by another tank, Z3ro Coo1, whose team I was invited to. He herded so damned well I thought he was a kick-butt fire tank till I bothered to check his info, only to discover one of the few high level Ice tanks I'd ever seen. He later took the time to tell me he did very well in pvp too, and had me observe a duel or two when I was skeptical. I also teamed with him in regular PvE missions and was equally impressed with how NOT gimped he was. Later on, since I thought herding was fun, I decided to roll up an Ice tank myself to trade PLs, since the early game has always been a total bore for me. From lvl 20 on, Ice-Cubed was my main, until the massive nerfs of ED and i5 were brought to bear. I left the game for a bit. I later returned and took up Ice again. He is currently lvl 41 on virtue, and I bother to level him when I can take a break from pvp, which is what I really enjoy as our "end game" content. I duel in the arena, in the zones, in teams and solo.

Best of luck with your Icers, and if I'm still playing this game when you read this, feel free to post here or PM me with questions. The "Tanker" global is also a good place to meet people and ask questions. I still tend to be summonable by making any thread with "Ice" in the topic in the tanker forum.

Posted: 5/30/06. Issue 7 was still on Test, the CE issue was still un-resolved. (D'oh!)

Hibernoob · 06-06-2006 09:39 AM

Of note:

I7 went live on 6-6-06.

Prima released a free update to it's binder-guide, with plenty of good numbers in it. Off the top of my head, it looks like the duration and to-hit bonus of Vengeance were both under-rated. It resisting Taunt and Placate effects was also unknown.

I've recieved info that Ice Blast's BI may be over-stated, and am looking into that fact. I can say that I have no problems with the damage, the range is still 2x that of Laser Eyes, and it's -movement and -recharge are a significant contribution in both 1v1 and team situations.

I am already beginning the update to the update, or version 2.0 of the guide. Expect it in around a month or so.

Prima's updates can be found Here.

Hibernoob · 06-07-2006 04:34 PM

Ding 50 on Ice!

FEAR MY POWA!!!11!!

Hibernoob · 06-13-2006 01:43 PM

I'm spamming my own guide!

Rather serious reworking/update in the works. ETA 1-2 weeks for an update to this, and another month or so, or basicly whenever I get around to it, for making vids and such.

Hibernoob · 06-17-2006 10:58 PM

Running update, not quite ready for a new post yet, trying to track down a few more numbers still.

The release of the Prima guide changed some percieved numbers on Taunt, Vengeance, Build-up, and a few other things.

There's also a few new sections and some changes to the builds. I'd check the Binds section for sure, and I added some stuff to the PvE section as well.

DarthJoe's Guide to Ice Armor in PvP, episode 2.0

The guide strikes back! This is an updated and expanded version of my updated and expanded Ice/EM guide. This guide is intended to be a comprehensive overview with in-depth analysis and strategy discussion for Ice armor and a few secondary/epic powerset choices in PvP, with focus on the energy melee secondary. Please note that none of the builds listed are intended to be "the one true build". One of the of the beauties of Ice Armor in pvp is the fair degree of flexibility you get. This IS intented to be a go-to guide, in a readable format that you can come back to again and again as you develop your own strategy with your tanks in pvp.

Next Update: Expect to see some pvp videos of Ice in his various builds and updated info fairly soon. I need to lock down some numbers, which will likely take Dev correspondance, and wait to see how RV and the meta-game changes when i7 finally hits live servers. There will also probably be more in-depth strategy on RV. Mainly I'm focussing on using Fraps to get enough clips together to make a good pvp video that illustrates some of the points I make in the guide.

Why is Ice good in pvp?

An Ice tank owes his strengths in pvp to the concept of "tempo" and the ability to manipulate it. We are, and always have been, the most "controller-ish" of the tanks. Rather than the meaty "I'm a ton of HP and res and there's not a [censored] thing you can do about it!" role that other tanks are forced to play, there are many ways to get our job done. This makes us fairly flexible, and has helped us weather some of the more recent pvp changes.

Tempo is the rate things happen in a duel. Pure and simple. An SG-mate of mine, Chucifer, wrote an in-depth analysis of tempo and it's affects for our SG, and reading that, I understood why my Ice/Em was strong. Incidentally, it's also the reason Stalkers do so well in the early zones. There, they are often able to work at their own tempo. Tempo is the reason you hear things like "burst damage is good in pvp" and "Blasters rock!" and "Omg that stalker is cheap!" and so forth. These are all expressions of the same fact...within the world of pvp, all ATs have their own rate of doing and taking damage, managing endurance, and movement. Several factors are involved, including: Recharge, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense, HP, Endurance, Heals, Range, etc.

When a build is forced to work outside its chosen tempo, that build is at a noticiable disadvantage. Any build that can FORCE another toon to move at a different speed has powerfull advantages in a pvp situation. This is why slows, holds, rooting animations and travel powers play such a major role in pvp.

Later on, when I talk about what kinds of tanks are good or bad in certain situations, I'm referring largely to the concept of tempo and each tanks strengths or weaknesses. Stone, for example, is great vs multiple opponents, especially melee, but sucks in a highly mobile duel and has very poor damage output. IMO, if you get killed by a Stone tank, you deserved it for standing still that long.

Ice, unlike most other tanks, has several tools to influence tempo in pvp. Unlike controllers or caster builds that can also alter tempo (blasters, defenders, dominators, masterminds), our tools often don't need a target and are AoE or pbAoE, helping us a ton when we don't have a target or are in melee range against several foes at once. This also makes us solid "placeholders"...holding a pill box, turret, base hallway, whatever. The tradeoff, of course, is that many of these abilities do us absolutely no good vs an opponent more than 15ft away from your body. Thus, movement is an important part of an Ice tanks abilities.

Below are some of the tools an Ice tank uses to affect tempo:

<ul type="square">
[*]Energy Absorbtion: It's a pbAoE attack can be fired every ~22/30s. When fired, it drains roughly 1/3 any targets endurance within the pbAoE range and refills a small amount of yours PER FOE hit by the attack, as well as granting a small defense bonus per foe (in the 1% range, per foe, not really of note, but important to remember in case you have a choice of hitting that MM or Controller NEAR his pets or AWAY from his pets). Hitting multiple foes in pvp can top up your endurance, but obviously comes with it's own dangers. It's most usefull in 1v1 melee duels, and really gets interesting when fighting multiple melee opponents at once. My Ice/Em once took on 3 equal level brutes in Warburg who were silly enough to sit inside melee range. Not only did they fall prey to ALL of my tempo altering powers, they mostly fell prey to EA...by trying to build fury, they stayed in melee range for the leach, thus costing them all their endurance over time and keeping me gassed up and firing. Anyways, a total endurance drain will drop all toggles, often leaving the opposing player vulernable to mez attacks and more vulernable to damage, with the added bonus of making it harder for them to run or fight back. I usually go for the toggle-drop + Build Up + ET+ TF combo for the stun, then follow up with a Bonemasher/Ice-Blast and hopefully another ET before BU wears off. It's devastating if they don't manage to get out of the way in time.

EA used to be primarily a Defense buff that increased with the number of nearby foes, and retains a diminished aspect of that ability in it's current form. In general, you're encouraged to just use EA as an endurance draining/buffing ability, but it's worth noting you can use this buff to get a decent defense boost with EA off a few MM pets, which helps even more since they struggle to hit +con, defense based enemies anyways. Just be aware of it...like the endurance buff, it only gets better with the more foes you can get into range before you shoot it off.

Endurance effects were changed for i7 and no longer are diminished by a mob being higher level than you...this makes EA much more effective in PvE as an end drain power.

[*]Chilling Embrace: It's a 32% -recharge and a 14% damage debuff, both unenhanceable. Both only apply to people silly enough to stand in it's PbAoE aura, which has a range of 10ft in a bubble around the user. It does, however, have an enhanceable slow movement that can often stack up well with the slow movement powers of others on your team, which is handy for keeping people within the area of the debuffs. It's ability to interupt certain abilities (*note* not Assasin Strikes, for the moment) and reveal concealed foes is also very helpfull.

Many, many otherwise whup-booty builds fall apart with a recharge penalty applied to them...Controllers have trouble stacking mezzes and keeping pets out, Scrappers can't get that heal off in time, and nobodies high-damage, burst attacks are up when they wish they were. For those builds who only have 2-4 attacks, this is critical, as it basicly keeps them sitting there looking at you a lot, waiting for their powers to recharge. Rage is no longer perma. Stoners get off an attack like once a week. Tier 9s take even longer to recharge. Hasten, self heals, etc, all take much longer, exposing gaps in the builds of other players they might not have known were there.

CE also has a -movement portion. The -movement, in and of itself, is not particularly valuable. You don't slot it to slow passing super-speeders, or Combat Jumpers. If they're not attacking you, any toon moving at 50+ mph is going to be into and back out of your little 20ft (max, side to side) aura before they've even noticed the effects. You slot it, in pvp, because of suppression. A great many dedicated pvp builds have Swift/Hurdle 3-slotted to help avoid the "suppression" effect in PvP. This allows for ease of kiting on Blapper and Scrapper builds and leads to the annoying and ridiculous hopping phenomenon currently active in pvp, second in ridiculousness only to the whirlwind-fest that it used to be. Anyways, when a target attacks you AND is Chilling Embraces range, they do get noticiably slowed. A slowed opponent in melee range is just what a pvp Tank is looking for these days!

Think of it like a patch of sand you come across in a vehicle: Drive through at speed and you'll never notice. Stop for a moment, break momentum, and it just became a LOT harder to get out. It's even better if you can throw an Ice Epic blast after them, especially on teams, but we'll get to that later...

[*]Hibernate: Hibernate has always been pretty controversial. Another, more traditional, tier 9 power for melee toons has a large +def or +res with a 2-3 min timer, an endurance crash, and a long recharge to follow. Hibernate has a 120s base recharge, and essentially functions as a power-rest mode with a phase component. What I mean is, you are stuck in one spot, unable to do anything else (except select an action to immediately follow release from hibernate, an extremely usefull feature), with rather massive hp and endurance regeneration for a time up to 30s in duration. You cannot be damaged or affected in any way, except, by effects initiated before you Hibernated but which had slow activation times, a perfect example of which is Total Focus, with it's 3s activation.

Hibernate is especially nice in FFA, team arena duels, and zones. In a team duel, for example, my teamates might be elsewhere and I come under fire from several blasters. As they get excited, whittling down my HP, I wait till I'm about to die then pop hibernate. Not only will they have to wait, up to 30s, to start doing damage again, they'll also have to get past my defenses and HP all over again to get a kill! My teamates may or may not come to my rescue, but either way I've likely kept multiple players focusing on me and given my teamates elsewhere a numbers advantage for 20-50s so they can rack up kills. If the opposing side realizes that hibernate is just going to waste their time, they usually take off in search of squishier targets. This is good for you too, since you get to stay alive and come out swinging and taunting things again.

Hibernate, as mentioned above, lets you select one power to go into effect immediately following the end of it's effects. This means, for example, if I've been overstacked on holds and popped a BF, I can hibernate and let the holds dissipate in the phase period. However, I controller would be free to re-hold me immediately after hibernate ended because my mez shield would still be down from my being held before I hibernated. Since I can set my mez shield to go up immediately, this is a notable saving grace of this power.

Strategy-wise, some people like to set up camp outside your hibernate and wait for you. That's fine too. Assess the crowd. Can they take you? Do you have support on the way? What powers are up? If they've put down mines and debuff fields and there are 2 stalkers about, I'd plan on booking it. Wait for EA to pop up, end hibernate early, hit EA for the defense/slow res, and Super Speed the hell out of there. If you can take your waiting opponent, say, a lone Stalker waiting to AS you, then pop out, hit BU and open up some whup-booty on him. The duration of your stay in Hibernate is entirely in your control. Use it. It's just another way to make tempo work for you.

People will complain about Hibernate a lot. Remember 2 things...first, people are stupid. Second, nobody likes things that whup their a**, and you should definately be one of those things.

[*]Resistance to slow effects: Means that other toons aren't as easily able to affect OUR recharge times and movement speeds, meaning that, in a larger way, we're more in control of our builds tempo than other toons are. EA has the biggest slow-resistance when used, relative to your passive slow resistances, which are rather pathetic.

[*]Taunt: Taunt belongs in any discussion on tempo because it essentially reduces an opponents damage to a chosen target by quite a bit, redirecting it into the tank himself. In theory, this works fine...however, in practice, Taunt is pretty much a sham these days, IMO. Further discussion on the taunt changes will be discussed below in the "Team PvP section".
[/list]

"But Darth! You didn't mention Defense! I thought Ice was a defense-based set?"

I hear people say Ice is a defense-based set all the time. It gets lumped in with SR and EA and a lot of other sets in many threads. I still do not consider our level of defenses to be that big a deal, but thought I'd throw in a section on them.

In fact, in the old days, the Ice/em tanks at the time didn't even take the defense armors for pvp builds, except sometimes Glacial for perception. In the first version of this guide, I don't think I mentioned defense ANYWHERE in the whole thing. It is, seriously, one of our least-usefull tools. Now that pvp defense has been buffed, they're definately worth taking and slotting, but still not really that big a deal.

For the record, a 3-slotted Frozen Armor, Glacial Armor, and Wet Ice will yield roughly 27.6% defense to S/L/E/NE and capped Cold resistance. Frozen Armor comes with an un-enhanceable Fire res of 12.5%, as well. That, plus most of Fire damage attacks actually being 1/2 smashing, is why Fire isn't a huge threat to us. Some people take Permafrost for even more Cold and Fire res, and a small slow-res. Psi is still the big threat, damage-wise, and Toxic, when applicable. We also have no res so S/L damage, so keep that in mind.

With EA thrown in, it's tough to guess you're average defense...with one target, figure roughly 29-30% defense most of the time. It only gets better if other targets are nearby to get a bit extra defense from, but, again, it's not a huge deal in pvp. When most pvp players have to figure out how to hit some guy in Elude or MoG, trying to get around your 30% defense is like trying to get worried about a speedbump when driving around in your Hummer. It's a non-issue for a lot of pvp builds, in other words.

What is Ice Armor vulnerable to in PvP?

Well, with only mediocre defenses, Ice is vulernable to high accuracy, sustained burst damage, especially from range, some of the stronger endurance debuffs some villians have, and mez stacking + containment damage. Also, unlike a lot of tanks, we can't really take concentrated fire from too many sources at once for any real period of time...however, we do have hibernate to make up for this in some regard. I do not enjoy long salvoes from MMs. With few notable resists to speak of, resist debuffs can be pretty nasty, effectively acting as pure +damage against us, while a resist-based build would resist "resist debuffs"...if that makes sense.

Still, killing an Ice tank is a difficult task. It is still your job to make it more difficult.

At lvl 50, my Ice tank has: 2979.5hp with Hoarfrost running, 1874.1 without. In the hasten gap, I can spend up to a minute in a lower HP state (handy time to hibernate for 30s, if you ask me..). With hasten, it's only 16s. I always recomend getting the +HP accolades, which can push you up 3.2k+.

Hibernate is up every ~61s without hasten, and ~45s with hasten up. Note that this is the time it takes to recharge after you stop using it...it's a toggle, like phase.

My passive heal rate, from Health, is 149 per tick (not accounting for the Accolades +hp effect), with Hoarfrost up, and a 1-full time of ~135s.

So, in order to kill my tank (assuming optimal, prepared for combat conditions), an opposing player must deal out roughly 3k damage that must all get past my defenses (roughly 30% on average, depending on build) in under 45s, or before I can hibernate. The alternative is to deal less damage in that amount of time, but prevent me from activating hibernate at the correct time, most likely by way of a mez power or end drain.

I can tell you from experience, there are only 2 (now 3) main threats that can accomplish this in time...a Scrapper with acc/dam hammis and running Focussed Accuracy and a controller, (usually fire/rad), hammied-out, setting up containment and then blasting with APP powers. Both are primarly 40+ threats, so Icers do very well in Warburg and in lower PvP zones.

Additionally, MMs are now capable of out-lasting and damaging Ice tanks with the current Bodyguard up on test. If we had more AoEs or cones, such might not be the case, but be aware of this fact for 1v1 and remember this when reviewing the Epics below.

In teams, obviously the situation can change and other builds become a threat more easily. Duos and up are a totally different dynamic. Dual-thermal corrupters can be quite a hassle, with 2x Thermal Exhaustions. Corrupters + Stalkers are very dangerous as well.

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The Builds: This section got a total revamp with i7. There are several reasons for this. First, I feel Taunt, in it's current form, on the Test server, is now HIGHLy situational and it really divides the builds. You either have to take Taunt, slot the hell out of it, plan on using it, or skip it entirely and throw some more "scranker" goodies in there. Essentially, there are 4 main choices: a Focussed Accuracy versus a Leadership approach, and a Taunt versus a Taunt-less approach.

This is the generic Ice/EM build that's been around a long time. It's got Focussed Accuracy and Aid Self. It's even got the obligatory Super Jump. Many of the veteran pvp guys will tell you it's THE Ice build (or at least some variation thereof) to duel with.

I've gone a bit nuts with the HOs and slotting, but you should be able to make it work for your budget. Ice ran a version of this for a long time, at lvl 45, with NO HOs at all.

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: Ice-Cubed
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Hoarfrost==> Golgi(1) Heal(3) Heal(3) Rechg(5) Rechg(5) Rechg(7)
01) --> Barrage==> Dmg(1)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(7) Cyto(9) EndRdx(19)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(9) Slow(11)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
10) --> Hurdle==> Jump(10) Jump(11) Jump(17)
12) --> Stimulant==> Rechg(12)
14) --> Health==> Heal(14) Heal(15) Heal(15)
16) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(16)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(21) Cyto(23) EndRdx(31)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(23)
22) --> Bone Smasher==> Nucleo(22) Nucleo(25) Dmg(31) Rechg(33) Rechg(42) Rechg(45)
24) --> Aid Self==> Heal(24) Heal(25) Heal(27) IntRdx(27) IntRdx(29) Rechg(33)
26) --> Super Jump==> Jump(26) Micro(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Membrane(28) Membrane(29) Membrane(33)
30) --> Energy Absorbtion==> EndMod(30) EndMod(34) EndMod(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(36) Rechg(36)
32) --> Hibernate==> Golgi(32) Heal(36) Heal(37) Rechg(37) Rechg(37) Rechg(39)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Nucleo(35) Nucleo(39) Dmg(40) Rechg(40) Rechg(40) Rechg(42)
38) --> Total Focus==> Nucleo(38) Nucleo(39) Dmg(42) Rechg(43) Rechg(43) Rechg(43)
41) --> Taunt==> Acc(41) Acc(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(46)
44) --> Focused Accuracy==> Cyto(44) Cyto(46) Cyto(46)
47) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Nucleo(47) Nucleo(48) Acc(48) Centriole(48) Rechg(50) DefDeBuf(50)
49) --> Super Speed==> Run(49) Micro(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1) Run(17) Run(19)
01) --> Brawl==> Rechg(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------

Even this is fairly customizable. I never really liked SJ on Ice, so Permafrost would work there as well, or Torrent could be wedged in for a tad more ranged damage and a cone, if you felt you really HAD to take it. Attack slotting is variable as well, and with HOs you can choose to slot for recharge or end redux, but I would never go less than 2xaccuracy and 3xdamage worth of SO level enhancements on any attack for pvp.

Below is the build I've had the most fun with. It's almost exclusively a team/zone build. He's purpose-built for RV, in fact.

It ditches Taunt, and with it one of my last excuses to take FA. Instead, it goes with the Ice epic, which I'll be talking about later, and the more team-friendly Leadership pool. What it lacks, notably, is a self-heal...I've eschewed self-healing for ground speed and versatility. It's a team build...I should be able to get a heal or def/res buff, or something, from some teamate. He's heavy on damage support, packs a ranged punch, actually fares pretty well in 1v1, when needed, and is absolute hell to try to take a pillbox from or to hold one against.

He's also pretty damned solid in 2v2 and smaller team duels, but the above build would tend to perform better in 8v8 arena or for general 1v1.

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: Ice-Cubed
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Hoarfrost==> Golgi(1) Heal(3) Heal(3) Rechg(5) Rechg(5) Rechg(7)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(7) Cyto(9) EndRdx(43)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(9) Slow(13) EndRdx(23)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(8)
10) --> Hasten==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11) Rechg(11)
12) --> Assault==> EndRdx(12) EndRdx(13) EndRdx(46)
14) --> Health==> Heal(14) Heal(15) Heal(15)
16) --> Tactics==> Cyto(16) Cyto(17) Cyto(17)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) Cyto(19) EndRdx(23)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Swift==> Run(22) Run(25) Run(25)
24) --> Super Speed==> Micro(24) Run(40) <---Tier for 2nd least needed HOs ever. 1x End Redux works great.
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> EndMod(26) EndMod(27) EndMod(27) Rechg(29) Rechg(29) Rechg(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Membrane(28) Membrane(31) Membrane(31)
30) --> Vengeance==> Cyto(30) Cyto(33) Cyto(33) <--- Least needed HOs, with Vengeance's already huge to-hit buff
32) --> Hibernate==> Golgi(32) Heal(33) Heal(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(36)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Nucleo(35) Nucleo(36) Dmg(36) Rechg(37) Rechg(37) {EndRdx/Rechg/Endoplasm Option Here}(37)
38) --> Total Focus==> Nucleo(38) Nucleo(39) Dmg(39) Rechg(39) Rechg(40) {EndRdx/Rechg/Endoplasm Option Here}(40)
41) --> Chilblain==> Endo(41) Endo(42) Endo(42) Rechg(42) Rechg(43) Rechg(43)
44) --> Ice Blast==> Nucleo(44) Nucleo(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(46) {Rechg/Slow/EndRdx Option Here}(46)
47) --> Ice Storm==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48) Slow(48) Slow(50) Slow(50)
49) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(49) Jump(50) <---Tier for 2nd least needed HOs ever. 1x End Redux works great.
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
---------------------------------------------

This IS, by far, a more HO-reliant build than the one above. I had serious endurance problems trying to run HO-less versions of this, so I'd definately consider against it until you stock up a bit on HOs and accolades.

It's also important to note this is hardly a wimp in 1v1. He'll likely fair well vs many casters, and, by abusing your slows, you could probably outlast a lot of melee characters and get kills that way. Casting Ice Storm at your feet, + CE is still rather brutal damage reduction vs builds that would otherwise be unhittable for awhile to this character. For example, when a SR scrapper in Elude rolls up and starts his string, pop it off and sit in it for the -recharge and -movement. What are they gonna do? Punish you by moving away and NOT hitting you? Heh. It's a defensive strategy, but this isn't an offensive build, it's a zone build, and you're not building to attack players who would simply hop away if you hit them anyways.

What makes this build work? Well, a lot of things. First, with IoPs that increase mez resistance, Ice can afford to carry around fewer BFs. It used to be all I ever took into zones was 20 BFs and a smile. I didn't need healing, didn't need accuracy, didn't need anything but extra mez protection to prevent over-stacking. I could go weeks, literally, before having to leave a pvp zone and go restock.

With the ability to affect a controller/doms recharge and how much over-stacking opponents can realisticly do, plus increased passive mez protection, and the possibility of even MORE from Vengeance, Ice can afford to swap out some BFs from his belt and carry a few greens for when he really needs to heal. A heal for 25% HP is a LOT of heal power with our HP, so carrying 5-10 of those and using them sparingly works wonders, and you don't have to worry about toggle debuffs with them. I'd consider a few blues these days, to counter the double-thermal corrupter end drain assault manuever...it will basicly bottom out just about anyone in the game. Ice, so far, is notably less threatened by holds from the villian side than any other effects, so I don't carry too many BFs into RV at all, these days.

Note that I generally frown on inspiration-reliant builds. Ice was never meant to be one. Truthfully, 7/10 times, I'd rather die and take the walk than pop a pill, if it comes to that. But it's worth knowing what you can have in your arsenal and how to play it out. They sure won't hesistate to use them against you.

Given the limitations of Taunt and Aid-Self, and my own observations playing with them, I was eager to ditch them both. Taunt just doesn't seem like a good idea anymore. Tactics+Assault+Vengeance is a powerfull combo in teams. CJ + Hurdle + Swift + Slotted SS is a highly mobile ground combo with suprising vert ability. Other than hopping up skyscrapers and on top of the Atlas globe in RV, he can single-hop over building and so forth, so there's very little that's off-limits to him, and none of it is worth particular strategic value in RV in any case.

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Other Armors and tanks in PvP:

Why Ice as opposed to the other sets? Well, pvp has changed a lot for tankers since its introduction. Originally, we were nigh-invincible high defense-medium damage dealers. We did ok. With the introduction of toggle-dropping, crits for scrappers, unresistable damage, and a lot of buffs to other classes, Granite and Invuln were left with the role of Taunt-bots when in their tier 9 powers, and Ice and Fire were left with a more scranky approach. Then taunt was nerfed, and so was Invuln. We were basicly really crappy scrappers with low damage and a quirky taunt-ability. We were pretty much shunned from pvp teams.

Ice took dominance as the best of the scrankers, with taunt-botting being left primarily to Stone tanks who took the presence pool taunts as well and spammed them. Since Ice was more mobile, it was the #1 pvp tank at that time. However, currently toggle-dropping is being scaled back, and Taunts ability has been changed as well.

It is now possible, once again, to play taunt-bot, if that is your wish. If so, I would build a Granite/Focussed Accuracy or Tactics build and slot lots of accuracy in your Taunt abilities. Your role is essentially to play an aggro door-stop to any opposing player who happens by. You will likely still have trouble taunting high defense toons, and will yourself be annoyed by being taunted, which usually locks two taunt-capable toons into a taunt-war to keep each other locked down. We'll discuss Taunt below, and it's current applications and pitfalls.

Granite is still the relatively unkillable man about town. However, a smart opposing team will just slap a few debuffs on you and ignore you. Any -to-hit is going to hurt a lot, especially your taunting, as is any additional -recharge that comes your way. Teleport is ponderous to use in a world of SuperJumpers. It doesn't have the mobility for RV, IMO, but would rock at holding down a pill-box, I would imagine. Granite is the fat kid nobody wants to play with, realisticly, and it's a skilled Granite users job to make the other kids have to deal with you.

Invuln is a fine set, but like EA, SR, and a lot of other sets with tier 9 powers, it really performs best when in Unstoppable. Unstoppable is basicly 3 minutes of life for an almost certain death afterwards. It was big in Arena, because you could manipulate the 10min window to spend 6 minutes of it in Unstoppable if you were willing to deal with one crash. Invuln got a lot of it's strength back with the nerf to toggle-dropping, but lacks endurance management and slow resistance, which I find essential in pvp. In general, I would say Invuln is a solid all-rounder for pure tank pvp. Invuln is like EA in that they are both pretty vulernable to -recharge, both from a DPS and survival standpoint. Also, without the artificial 10min timer of an Arena duel, Invulns can have issues in zones.

Fire Armor users end up being "scrankers" in pvp. While sometimes solid, IMO the HP is too low to really scrank well, and endurance issues can be a problem. Low HP is a problem with mez stacking, Assasin Strikes, Psi damage, and a variety of other issues out there. 2x build-ups is nice though. They're also pretty vulnerable to -recharge. A fire tank will lose to an Ice tank in a 1v1 though, or draw if he does not bother to try to win and just spams his heal.

Why Energy Melee?

Energy Melee is among the premier damage dealers among tanker secondaries (and in most classes, for that matter). It also excels in burst damage which is usually far more suited to becoming DPS than vice versa, especially for an Ice tank who will be taking Hasten, Stamina, and Tactics/Focussed Accuracy anyways. Additionally, burst damage is of use in team pvp because it often gives you the chance to get a kill in before their heal is up again, relative to DPS, which is mitigated greatly by movement and healing abilities.

Epics:

IMO, there are only 2 Epics a pvp tank can seriously look at. The Energy Mastery or Artic Mastery sets. Fire has some added damage relative to both, but little other synergy. The crown of the Earth epic is a pbAoE sleep on a long timer. Just not enough to make it viable in pvp, imo. I could see a Ice/SS/Fire built purely for damage, as we'll see in my Ice vs EM comparo below, but, in general, direct your attention to Energy and Artic.

Energy primarily offers the vaunted Focussed Accuracy, discussed below, the rarely-taken Conserve Power, and two weak blasts with limited damage and range not really worth talking about much. Most people take FA and possibly Laser Eyes and leave the rest of that set alone.

Ice offers an immob, a hold, a very nice ranged blast, and a nova-like power. In my opinion, they stack very well with an Ice tanks other abilites to make kind of a "Tank-troller" for team purposes. IMO, the stacking abilities, less-resisted damage type, and superior ranged abilities make up for taking tactics over Focussed Accuracy and the Energy pool.

Here are the base stats (I've noted when they are hypothetical on my part):

<ul type="square">[*]Chillblain: 1.17s activation, 50ft range, 2.778 BI in DoT (cold)damage, 10s recharge, 15s duration. -recharge, -speed.

Although immobs are commonly resisted by people taking CJ, I find this an uber-usefull power for several reasons. First, it's pretty spammable when slotted, especially with HOs. That means it's easy to over-stack squishy immob resistances, if you can stay in range and spam this. Even for the second it takes them to pop a BF, that's time your rushing in with SS, popping a Build-Up on the way and bringing the pain. Good stuff.

The DoTs are good vs Stalkers, which is nice, cause you're not going to slot this for damage anyways, so you might as well get as much use as possible out of it. If you see a Stalker in hide, throw this on him to break the hide and annoy them. They cannot re-hide until the DoTs wear off.

I wouldn't go with less than 4 slots until you get pretty HOed out. And range SOs only give you about another 10ft apiece, not usually the best value, but I have thought of putting a few in there, from time to time...usually when I'm being TKed into a corner and wish I had something other than Ice-Blast to fire back with.

Spamming this, plus Ice-Blast for damage, plus trying to get into melee range for the EM big guns (which brings CE to bear on your target), works out as a pretty ghastly -recharge on your opponents at most times.
[*]Block of Ice: 1.87s activation, 80ft range, 2.778 BI (cold), 32s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed.

Some people like this power. I do not. It's recharge is long, it's a pain to over-stack anyone's mez shield, and they are just going to use a Breakfree anyways. You're a Tank, you're not trying to hold anyone anyways, you just want them to sit still long enough to pound their a**es with your other attacks. Failing that, you'd like to slow them down and reduce their damage output. Chillblain works nicely enough, for my purposes.
[*]Ice Blast: 1s activation, 80ft range, 6s recharge, -recharge, -speed. Believed to be 4.556 BI (2.778 cold, 1.778 smash), 20% decrease in attack speed for 10 seconds; 20% decrease in movement speed for 10 seconds. {Some say 2.778 BI, total}

I replaced Bonemasher in my chain with Ice blast. Bonemasher's BI is listed the same, it's % Smashing damage is the same, it's recharge is slower (8s), but it did stack disorients with the rest of EM. Ultimately, I felt the tradeoff in range and stacking of -movement and -speed was more valuable than Bonemasher the vast majority of the time. I have been too lazy to test if the BI on this is correct, I've recieved PMs that it is not, but I'm comfortable with the power either way.

Often I need a "kill shot" after an enemy hops away from a built up ET+TF combo...a built-up Ice-Blast works nicely, from range. The stacking of the -recharge/movement is just a perk, I wouldn't bother to slot for it, but be aware that keeping it a big part of my chain works adds damage mitigation to the melee foes I engage, just like my CE aura.

[*]Ice Storm: 2.03s activation, 60ft range, 120s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed. Believed to have 7.344 BI DoT (1/2 cold, 1/2 lethal), 10% decrease in attack speed for 6 seconds; 40% decrease in movement speed for 6 seconds (from the last shard to hit them)

A big AoE that does DoT and takes a long time to activate is pretty much a total dog in most pvp. It's too slow to get going, and, frankly, even if most opponents WERE motivated or forced to stay for the entire duration, it's damage still isn't spectacular. Generally considered a dog in both PvE and PvP.

It's a fun zone power, however, and also a decent melee defense power in 1v1 pvp.
For MMs with the new Bodyguard feature, it's probably the only AoE you will have if you're EM. Stacked with CE for -movement when they're near you, I'd hit BU, cast it at your feet and it should wipe out at least the lower-tier minions. It can also be good for stalkers and high-defense melee toons, defensively...the power is essentially an auto-hit, and thus applies it's -movement and -recharge to the opposing player regardless of defense. Again, stacked with CE in melee range, it's a powerfull auto-hitting slow effect that will make foes miserable. If you're duking it out with a Regen, for instance.

Another noteworthy aspect is the fear or scatter effect vs mobs and some pets. A true annoyance in pve can be usefull in pvp. Some enemies like to fight in the middle of NPCs and let your aura aggro them. Dominator pets will tend to be very close as well. Casting Ice Storm at your feet will scatter them for awhile, and they'll be incredibly slow to leave the rather large AoE of CE+Ice Storm. Good damage reduction + stalker protection = *thumbs up!*

On slotting: In the above build, I've shown this power slotted for movement reduction. Why? Because the damage sucks anyways, even with build up. I've not even been able to confirm the BI, and the numbers for the planner are taken from the blaster equivalent. Nobody tends to stand under it for the whole time anyways, and you sure as ***t have better things to be doing with your time in build up. So, in general, I've chosen to slot it with -movement because the -movement is actually pretty notable and is on shedule A enhancements, meaning you can get some rather gnarly -movement off this. Which, sadly, just MIGHT be enough for you to get an extra shot in on a super jumper. *sighs*
-[/list]

Other Versions:

Ice/EM vs Ice/SS:

Many people have asked me about other secondaries. I will say that the most usefull secondary OTHER than /EM I can think of would be /SS. As things currently stand, an Ice/SS would be much more usefull than my Ice/EM in Sirens Call, for instance. Ultimately I prefer the Ice epic over the Fire epic. Essentially the tradeoff is damage for -movement, -recharge, both of which stack well when you get in range and put CE on them. To see a comparison of Ice/SS/Fire and Ice/EM/Fire damage, check the following posts for my DPS/Burst comparo. Ultimately, SS gives up something like 30% in burst damage for, presumably, greater DPS and AoE damage.

SS vs EM Burst output:

I'm defining burst 2 ways, for this conversation...in 2-3s intervals likely for caster exchanges and chasing the ever-popular "hoppers" in pvp, and 11-12s bursts, applicable to more melee-orientated duels.

Please note that, although I asked for reviews on the math here, and it turned up pretty sound, this is only an estimation and should be treated as such. Still, the end results are pretty clear, and show the different styles one should adapt for an SS build vs an EM build.

Below is a numbers section I've put in quotes, to make the guide more readable for those who would like to ignore this section:

[ QUOTE ]

This is designed to be a look at maximum damage, with an eye on burst damage. All slotting choices assume max damage slotting and recharge where needed, hammi enhanced if necessary. In other words, all powers are assumed to have a 3x damage, 3x recharge slotting, which is only really practical with acc/dam hammis included if you actually want to be HITTING something. Endurance is not a major concern for Ice tanks anyways, so I'm not worrying about that variable, but I will say, from what I've seen in-game, SS doesn't appear to have any really noticiable end savings vs my EM tanks either.

SS attacks:

KO: 19.28, 27.2 w/ rage 9.44s w/hasten 12.83 w/o (2.23s activation)
FireBlast: 7, 9.9 w/ rage 2.26 w/hasten, 3.08 w/o (1.2s activation)
FireBall: 7.6, 10.7 w/ rage 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1s activation)
Haymaker: 8.88, 12.5 w/ rage 3.02 w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Jab: 3.68, 5.2 w/rage, 1.18 w/hasten, 2 w/o (1.07s activation)
RoF: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 3.77 w/hasten, 5.13 w/o (1.17s activation)
Char: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1.07 activation)
Rage: 1.17s activation

SS PvP Chain: This chain was tricky to design, especially for burst damage. SS simply does not lend itself to burst, especially w/o the EPPs. Hurl is junko both burst and DPS-wise, Footstomp has less damage than Haymaker at far more cost for being an AoE would hate to play an Ice/SS in between lvls 30 and 50. A jab+punch chain doesn't work either.

I think the chain would vary with opponent. For example, for an enemy resistant to smash/lethal I'd throw in either RoF or Char in place of haymaker. KO Blow's overly long recharge and activation means you cannot use it 2 times within a 11s period of time, and there is no 1-2-3 punch like EM has. On my EM tank, a great many squishier foes are dead within the first 3 shots after build up.

Also note that while the Energy set up below is more or less the optimized build for that setup, the SS+Fire EPP combo gives you variables. RoF has a much faster recharge than Char, and can be used as a ranged attack in an attack string, at the expense of the possibility of holding a target with Char in a crucial time. I do not recomend taking RoF AND Char, as they both eat up far too many slots when used together.

--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s Rage
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
27.2 (KO) 2.23s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
9.9 (blast) 1.2s
8.4 (RoF/Char) 1.07
10.7s (ball) 1s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
+
9.9 (blast) 1.2s (This is to equalize the effects of EM needing a BU for every burst chain and SS not...as you can see, even another attack doesn't even come close to evening the damage)

= 93.7 BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1500.74 HP worth of damage in the 11s window WITH rage activation included.

= 103.6BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1659.30 HP worth of damage in that same window with another attack instead of Rages activation included. Likely more "real world" a number.

NOTE: These calculations are not exactly correct! Because Fire Ball, Blast, and both of the Fire holds have a DoT component of 5 ticks, and issues with activation times and fitting in an efficient chain with the other variables, it is inevitable some of the ticks of damage will trail off the end of the chain.

"But Darth, won't KO be up again soon enough?!" Yep. Including activation, rage, and hasten, KO can be up 11.67s after it is first activated. While this made it impossible to include in a apples to apples comparison of SS and EM within a given amount of time, it is possible to slightly lengthen the amount of time looked at, which would likely be valuable vs melee foes. Variables and changes to the chain need to be made as well, if you plan on your target being there long enough long enough to get 2 KO blows off, or, in exchange, if you plan on him running as far as possible. Leading the chain with KO then blasting would be necessary then.

Energy Melee:

ET: 24.7, 37.4 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (1s activation)
TF: 19.3, 29.2 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (3.3s activation)
Bonemasher: 8.9, 13.4 w/ BU 3.02s w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Laser Eyes: 5.41, 8.2 w/ BU 3.08s w/hasten 2.26 w/o (1.67s activation)
Build-Up: 33.97 w/hasten, 46.17w/o (1.17s activation)

EM PvP Chain:
--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s BU
37.4 (et) 1s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
29.2 (tf) 3.3s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
8.2 (eyes) 1.67s
37.4 (et) 1s

= 139 BI after build up, with an 11.14s window. This includes build-ups activation time, and is contingent on the target remaining stationary for most of the chain AND the EM tank being lightning fast and perfect in the execution of this chain. I can tell you from experience most targets will pop a BF and move on if they know what's coming, and that's a powerfull advantage to then in that it radicly decreases your burst output by doing so.

= 97.91 without build up with a 9.97s window with this same string.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you end up with 2177.04hp vs 1500.74hp (or 1659.30hp) worth of damage, before resistances are factored in.

That means SS is still doing only .69 (69%) of EMs damage in the first case, and .76 (76%) of EMs in the second case, in BURST modes of 11-12s.

To sum up, ANY EM string is going to be better both in a common 1-2s window in which you catch skilled squishies for a sec before they hop off, and an 11s window vs anything that doesn't hop off.

The SS combo will pull ahead in overall DPS, and probably EPS (endurance) as well. It succeeds at ranged damage too. There are utility-combinations and other factors that may want to be considered, such as taking Footstomp for the AoE knockup and some damage after toggle-dropping some enemies with Energy Absorbtion. Also good to hit stalkers with when they placate you and are after a friendly who's nearby. I liked clap on my brute in SC too, good for those squishies who got too close when taunted or something. Few squishies have resists to disorient.

*whew* Ok, so this is clearly NOT a representation of /em vs /ss tanks and their overall DPS. I suspect SS will pull ahead in engagements lasting over 15s but under 45s. My tank's battles ARE either under 15s or well over 45s, so I still think /em gets the nod.

(All math includes 3x slotting for damage/recharge, and assuming the character can deal with his own endurance/accuracy issues through HOs, which are pretty common in high level pvp)

Stun:

I actually ended up with a free power in PvE, when finishing Ice up, so I had some experience with Stun. It's quite handy a power. It's activation used to be the same as Total Focus, and it has a mag 3 stun, so people couldn't see why they would want to take both. It has now been lowered to a 1.8s activation, which isn't too bad. In PvE, you can pretty much keep something stunned the whole time, and can stun Elite bosses and such.

In PvP, if you can get in ET + TF + Stun, you can over-stack a lot of mez protections. I've over-stacked some rather confused looking Brutes in RV with this power, which is pretty fun. In fact, it's so much mez in so short a time that it can take 2 BFs to punch through an EM strings disorients if they hit them at the wrong time. The base duration in pvp is 6.67 seconds, and 10s vs "critters" in PvE.

My problems with it as a pvp strategy is that it's a melee attack that often takes stacking, it's going to be resisted by Clear Mind and a variety of other buffs in teams, and is easily dispelled by the #1 pvp inspiration, Break-Frees, in addition to having to roll a "to-hit" vs defense sets and such.

If you do take it, which I don't recomend, I'd definately slot it at least 2x Acc and 3x Disorient duration. It's a great place to save slots with HOs, as well, as 3x Acc/mez HOs will have you all geared out there.

Icicles:

Wow. Just wow. People still take this power. It's sad. Look, guys, I know everyone likes to sweat stalkers when they build for pvp. And, sure, one might think an Ice/SS with tactics or FA might have enough to-hit to help Icicles punch through that massive + AoE Defense Stalkers get. And maybe you're right. But I saw a bunch of Ice tanks with this during the Test event who I was promptly able to kill with my DM stalker, regardless of Icicles. It simply does not work enough to justify the choice and slotting.

With stacked perception, our HP, blasts (to disrupt hide when you can see them), Hibernate to bail us out, BU to help us hit them, they're not really an issue. I 2-3 shot most stalkers in a BU chain if they're silly enough to stick around anyways.

So, yeah, I strongly disagree with those who want to take this and six-slot it as some kind of possible Stalker mitigation. It's just not worth it, guys. Stalkers fear Ice/EM Tanks...Ice/EM Tanks don't fear Stalkers. Plan your build accordingly.

Power Pools:

Power pools further differentiate one build from another. There is a lot of flexiblity here, but I always recomend Hasten and the Fitness pool at a minimum. Health/Stamina is simply TOO usefull, especially for a Tank. Hurdle or Swift, slotted, helps with suppression issues, which can hurt a melee toon a lot. Hasten is simply TOO good to pass up for getting all those clickies around in time and tighting up an attack chain for difficult targets.

The Presence Pool can be a valuable asset. If you WANT to take a Taunt power, Challenge is a good one to pair with Intimidate. Challenge's recharge is naturally much lower than Taunts, but it's duration is lower and it's activation is slightly longer. They both appear to be equally accurate, from a pvp perspective. For spamming on a single target, I would say Challenge is superior to Taunt. IMO, Fears are pretty broken in this game...they are, effectively, a better immob power than any existing immobilization in the game. They are less commonly resisted and the enemy cannot run or counter until you attack him. Watch for villians to fear and then have a Stalker AS you, with the broken Chilling Embrace. It's a good strategy, the only real counters are to pop a BF ahead of the AS, or hibernate immediately after the AS, which can be risky if they get a scourge in. Ultimately, I'd love having a fear on Ice, but it's a bit hard to wedge in there, especially with an eye on travel powers and the medicine pool. Play around and see what works for you. In general, I do NOT recomend it mainly because most experienced duelers will probably pop a BF or be able to escape the effects, and you have to significantly re-work either a FA or a Leadership build to fit it in. For a one-trick set, it's not worth it, but if you are going to take and slot one of the taunts in place of the Taunt power, then there's a nice synergy there, for sure.

It is also worth noting that Fear does ranged/psi damage...meaning it will bypass a great deal of defensive sets (most sets don't have Psi Def), and is not commonly resisted. Though SR should be better off, there have been some rumblings lately that SR is not behaving as it should vs many Psi-based attacks as well.

Sets that naturally defend against Fears include /Nin and any Dark Armor or Dark buff/debuff sets. Tactics and Vengeance give a resist that shortens the duration. Intimidate will self-supress for 15s after use, and it has a long recharge, so do not expect to chain-fear someone with it. The uber-common Clear Mind and breakfrees also both offer total protection from Fear powers, and Khelds have a resist to it as well.

The Medicine pool can work out very well. Solo, I don't find myself NEEDING a heal in between Dull Pain and Hibernate very often at all, and in teams I should have buffs/heals at my disposal, so I don't prefer it for my build. It's very much a YMMV power though, and I now recomend it for most serious arena duelers. Note that my team builds above do not have it...with so much toggle-debuffing going on, that no amount of interuption reduction can break through, and my general impressions of team pvp in RV, I have elected NOT to include it in my zone builds. With IoPs for added mez protection, I just bring a few greens for the occasions when I might have wanted a heal, and enjoy the use of other powers in the meantime.

It's worth noting that, if you're going to take and slot aid self and get tight for powers, you can skip Health and just take Stamina. Part of the advantage of Health for us is increasing your regen when in hibernate, thus reducing the amount of time you have to spend phased. Its other role, reducing down time, will be covered by Aid Self, so this is worth thinking about if you go that route and get tight on powers.

Leadership/Tactics is covered elsewhere.

Travel Powers:

I'm a big believer in Super-Speed for Icers. It allows me to be extremely mobile as a gound force. If you DO need to run, you can, and at great speed. Your resistance to slows means it takes so many opposing players to slow you down they might as well have killed you, or someone else, instead. When teamed, I need my teamates to drop repel based toons, then I SS in with BU and put em the rest of the way down. Ice/EM is largely about combat support in teams, and SS gets you in and out faster. Cue SS, hit "f" to follow, and zoom in on stuff till their dead or you are. If they go over vertical objects, I have hurdle and possibly CJ for respectable "hops". If they want to hang out on top of a building, it's all good...they're effectively out of combat, not annoying my team, and I could give a flip what they do up there. *shrugs*

Maybe you noticed I have no dedicated vertical power on a few of my pvp builds and wonder why. 2 reasons... a) Arena duels offer temp powers, and b) I don't find them really needed in RV...SS + Hurdle + Swift is enough. I blast stuff from range as I zoom in, and if it's flying/hovering I immob and drop it with Chillblain. If things are out of range of either of those powers, then I'm out of range of theirs, and I just forget about them. There are no pill boxes on the rooftops, you may have noticed. I do not care what is up there.

Tp Foe can be a great help to an Ice tank. In i7 it got a nerfed a tad and I generally don't recomend it anymore for 50v50 pvp.

At the 40 cap in Warburg, I used it to make up for my lack of dedicated vertical movement power and lack or ranged attacks. Usually, if ppl are out of range of TP Foe I'm not really that worried about them anyway.

That being said, anyone who PvPs without TP Foe on a bind is silly, IMO, especially for a melee toon. Tp Foe is interruptable, and it's important to recognize your interruptions when you slot the power. For instance, I recomend 2x interupt redux, which is NOT, IMO, enough to get through a fire DoT attack or Caltrops. It is enough to get one off between most melee or ranged attack chains. My interest in slotting for redux is reduced by the fact that NO amount of redux will let you TP Foe within the influence of a slow power OR a debuff. This includes any rad, dark, or sonic debuffs, and notably snowstorm from the controller/defender crowd. The only way to get around these are to break perception, and by the time you do that you might as well have chased down the original target anyway.

I bound mine to "T", which is close to my movement keys. When a target runs, I moved my left finger over a key and brought their butts back. Target the ground near you and cue up either ET, TF, or, if you've taken it, stun. With good players you'r only likely to get one shot in, so make it a good one. The bind looks like this { /bind t powexec_name "Teleport Foe"}. Intimidate could be used here as well, or an immob.

Also, in burg, with boating squishies who super-jump when teleported, you might try going under the little bridges by the beach, which are close quarters and teleport them into there. They'll start to jump automaticly, confused, hit the underside of the ledge 5ft up, and you'l have em dead with a Build Up combo before they figure it out. This is just one example, I'm always looking for spots like these to use TP foe in. The pools in Warburg are also great for Stone brutes/tanks who won't come out of granite, but weren't smart enough to take TP too. With no jump, they can't escape the pool unless they drop both granite AND rooted (you know, they're mez protection?) Getting them to drop that, pray they don't have BF, and hit em with ET+TF as soon as they pop out.

Additionally, you can now use TP Foe to pull a MM away from his minions and Body Guard and put the hurting on him. Note that you can just pull the MM around a corner to break the LoS requirement, you don't have to pull him the whole 60+ feet away if room does not permit.

Recall Friend can be nice to pull squishies out of danger, or to pull their bodies in for Vengeance. It does not work on Heavies, according to my information.

All builds/ideas are valid. I'm not here to get into an argument over what is better, because the truth is another one of Ice/Ems strengths is that it's a build with enough room to be good at a few different things. As noted, the above build is my all-rounder, what I run in teams and solo. There are other builds, some which focus on blasters and controllers which I call "anti-caster", and others which would strengthen you vs. melee toon. Each gives up something in opportunity cost to focus on one side or the other, and I have simply found my build above to be the best match for my playstyle and common pvp matches.

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Focussed Accuracy vs the Leadership Pool:

In general, you will need SOME kind of passive to-hit buff other than build-up when dueling. Almost every melee toon should have one, IMO. I say almost because, with the way the villian melee ATs are designed, I'm not entirely convinced they need one. I reserve judgement on that front, but, if I were a villian, I'd take the Leadership pool anyways. FA is obviously superior to Tactics at what it does, especially solo. Tactics and a bit of skill can go a long way to even the playing field, and Tactics is also quite nice in teams. I mean, stackable to-hit, +dam, and the possibility of Vengeance when grouped up and working on a single foe or small group is very powerfull. Tactics is fairly popular now, and I've seen cases of triple-stacked Tactics melt through Overloaded or Retsu villians who thought they could tank it up.

I mean, to be honest, even with FA, Elude Scrappers and a lot of players with skill could simply hop away from my BU anyways. I think FA's usefullness for Tanks is over-rated...even if we hit, it takes quite a bit to chew through a Brute or Scrappers HP anyways. I'm not saying it wasn't do-able, but it wasn't the knife-through-butter a lot of people like to make it out to be, either. And, meantime, is there anyone else you should have been killing or anything else you should have been doing while you were engaged in a 1-3 minute melee-fest? Probably!

FA is uber for scrapper-hunting though, I will say that. Since we can 2-3 shot them with BU, getting those hits in and making them a sure thing has definite value in those cases.

To overview:

Focussed Accuracy:
To-Hit: 18.5% to-hit, base, 28.68% with 3x SO slotting. (Dev confirmed numbers)
Endurance: Listed at .59 endurance per tick...greater than 2x the standard defense toggle. With 3x SOs...it's down to .3 EPS. (I've heard tell this number is wrong and under-states the end cost. Suffice to say, it's a frikin PIG of endurance, be prepared.)
Non-rooting activation
10s recharge.

Tactics:
To-Hit: ~7% for melee ATs and blasters, ~11% with 3x SOs.
Endurance: Listed at .4 endurance per tick (.21 with 3x SO slotting)
Roots on activation
15s recharge

However, Tactics is very team friendly and it + Assault make a pretty nice package, helping out with fear/placate/taunt as well as upping your damage and the damage of all those around you. For a team-tank, Tactics + Assault isn't a bad choice at all, especially since it looks like leadership is gaining popularity and there's a greater chance of stacking the buffs in teams.

Assault is +10.5% to the BASE value of damage for all attacks. However, because it does not apply to enhanced values, it is roughly +5% to your real damage output. And any teamates within a 60ft AoE. Assault also comes with a Taunt/Placate res which is nice, if not over-the-top usefull.

Vengeance. Ooh baby. The bad boy of the pvp world. Thankfully the Devs have put the kabosh on the vengeance-stacking teams, which is good, but it's still a uniquely powerfull tool, especially in zones, where the usual hopping tends to give way to more localized duels, making localized buffs even more usefull.

Defense: +25% base ( +39%, slotted! That's roughly +70% def for us Ice tanks when stacked with shields...not too shabby at all, when things get rough)
Accuracy: Confirmed +35% base to-hit
Duration: 120s
Recharge: 300s
Activation: 1.17s
Range: 60ft to body to cast, then 100ft radius. The first number is enhanceable, I do not believe the radius is, however, nor would I bother to slot for it if it were.

Other Notables: This power no longer stacks with multiple castings. There is no endurance cost.

EFFECTS: (from the Prima guide) "25% Defense for 120 seconds;117.1 Heal; 35% increase in To Hit chance for 120 seconds; 69% Fear resistance for 120 seconds; 10-point Fear protection for 120 seconds; 69% Disorient resistance for 120 seconds; 69% Hold resistance for 120 seconds; 69% Sleep resistancefor 120 seconds; 69% Confuse resistance for 120 seconds; 69% Immobilize resistance for 120 seconds; 69% Taunt resistance for 120 seconds; 69% Placate resistance for 120 seconds; 100-point Knockback protection for 120 seconds; 10-point Repel protection for 120 seconds; 35% increase to damage for 120 seconds."

Ok, so it's an uber power. But it's contingent on someone dying to use. Obviously not desirable for a tank in pve, but it happens. And also not a big priority for an nigh-unkillable taunt bot who plans on keeping everyone alive in pvp. But that's not what we are, and deaths are more or less unavoidable in pvp, so I'd take a look at it, if I were you. 2 Stalkers can strike a squishy at once, for example. You can really only taunt 1 of em off, even if you have it and it hits (and they don't pop a BF!). Anyone truly dedicated to ignoring a Tank can usually do so. So you might as well put the "keep everyone alive" mindset behind you.

I use Vengeance a lot like "I will Avenge You" from GW. Especially when combined with IoPs, you're looking at serious mez protection, very nice defense (for a tank, +70% is pretty godly to be running around with), and a heal to kick things off. If you ARE going to take and use Vengeance, it's nice to be able to give it a few other people as well. A lot of times, in arena, the maps can be so big, and with no real focus point, people can get too spread out. But in zones, say someone dies assaulting a pill-box...everyone's pretty much clustered in the 60ft AoE anyways, pop it and let the good times roll. Hell, pop a BU and throw a vengeance+BU+assault enhanced AoE in there, just for kicks! RAWR!

I use binds with my Vengeance, make sure to check out the bind section, below.

<br /

Hibernoob · 06-17-2006 11:00 PM

Endurance Management:

With the base recovery rate and stamina, I can run all of my toggles and have a healthy, positive recovery rate. This ends up working out well for pvp, becuause my damage is usually done in bursts as other squishies tend to run as hard as they can, or simply die and save me some endurance/time in chasing them down. In protracted melee duels, they usually become a "war of attrition" for the other guys endurance. Very few attackers can effectively kite an Ice tank...they run up against our mass of hp and our hibernate or aid-self use. So they'll be motivated to stay in melee range, and they'll keep you fed with enduance. Once they start to get low on endurance, try to time it so you can get a Energy Absobtion (to toggle-drop them) +BU+ET+TF string off. Most melee types will end up being mezzed, though it may take awhile for SR scrappers and Regen scrappers/stalkers can take a resistance to disorient effects power.

You should not particularly need endurance or be winded vs ranged toons. Your positive recovery, even with all toggles running, is enough to support your brief blips of burst damage when can close in and try to put them down.

It can also be effective to bind some powers to mouse buttons. For example, if you go a SS/SJ route, I like to bind SJ to my center mouse wheel. Since I don't use it that often, it's a simple click to turn it off/on, resulting in a good saving of endurance per second if you're not actually using the power anyways. Note that CJ has almost a non-existant end cost, so I don't ever see many reasons to turn if off. It's the "turn the light off when you're not in the room" strategy. I'd also recomend the SJ/CJ swap bind there, as CJ has almost no end cost, so there's no reason not to have it on for extra hops and air mobility every time you're not Super Jumping about.

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Other PvP Goodies:

There are many things one can do get the "edge" in pvp. A few are listed below.

Hammidon and Accolades:

The following is a list of all the HO enhancements available in the game. In the high, high-end pvp in this game, a builds ultimate power relies on how much use they can get out of the powers they have. HOs help make that happen, increasing slotting efficiency. People who point out that HOs are now only 2xSOs are missing the point...a controller, for example, can put 6 HOs in a power and cap out the enhaceable aspects of 4 of that powers aspects. An Ice tank, on the other hand, can only really put 3x HOs in a defense power, capping the enhancement value of 2 of it's aspects.

Nucleolu Exposure= Dmg/Acc <--- 1st priority
Centriole Exposure= Dmg/Rng
Peroxisome Exposure= Dmg/Mez
Endoplasm Exposure= Acc/Mez <--- Of note if you wish to try a build based around "Stun" or for stacking immobs.
Golgi Exposure= Heal/End
RibosomeExposure= Dmg resist/End
Microfilament Exposure= Travel speed/End
Lysosome Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/Acc
Enzyme Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/End
Membrane Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/Attack rate <--- 2nd priority
Cytoskeleton Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/End <--- 1st priority
*Mez is any holds, stuns, sleep, disorient, and immobilize. Slow and knockback are not considered as Mez.

I think the priorities on HOs goes something like this:

a) Things that affect accuracy/to-hit and damage.
b) Increasing endurance efficiency.
c) Slot reduction to put more slots into hurdle/swift and other powers that help in pvp, reducing suppression and ultimately upping your offense/defense through mobility.

In addition to HOs, I also recomend these accolades in pvp:

Freedom Phalanx: +10% hp.Requirements here.
Portal Jockey: +5% HP and +5% Endurance. Requirements
Atlas Medallion: +5 max endurance. Requirements
Task Force Commander: +5% HP. Complete all Signature Heroe Task Forces (Positron, Synapse, etc. There are 6)

For those wondering, +15% HP to our base, at lvl 50, is 2155hp, buffable to 3426hp with slotted Hoarfrost. +20% is ~2248/3575hp. Good times...

(3.5k is actually over our ATs HP cap, so I wouldn't bother to get all of them unless an extra 100hp is that big a deal for you, or if you just really like badges.)

Items of Power:

Items of power have been activated for i7 and are another edge you can have in PvP. As of now, not all of the IoPs have been discovered.

Common ones Include:
Monument of Fury: +2% Damage Buff
Monument of Iron: +1% psychic damage resistance.
Name?: +1% XP gain
Name?: +1% Reduced Debt

Rare Items of Power Include:
True Furnace: Gives everyone in supergroup mode +10 end, and provides your base 1 million power.
"crystal of resilience": Provides everyone in supergroup mode protection to immobilize, sleep, hold, and disorient. [note: Bug Report suggests that when working in the base edit mode, the iop was not called "crystal of reslience" but "monument of iron", but it provided the protection from status effects.
Book of Rularuu : complete chronicles of Rularuu that give all SG members 20% Debt Protection while in SG mode. (aka "the True Book"?)
"Book" - unknown (different graphic then the book of rularuu)
Heart - unknown
Cube - unknown

In general your SG will likely be drooling over the Crystal of Resilience (because every single squishy has wanted inherent mez protection for FOREVER now). Do not neglect the Monument of Fury though...you can have up to 5 IoPs at any one time in the base, so 2-4 of these can really add up. In addition to assault, I had several IoPs on test and Ice was hitting notably harder. Say 8% from IoPs and 10% from assault...ouchie. My big guns really do hurt. Toss a Vengeance in there...whooboy...

If you don't belong to a SG, I highly recomend one, even if you only PvE. My SG on Virtue actually isn't that huge on PvP, but I've stuck with them over the years cause they're a good bunch of guys and the SG is run right. The CoX staff seems to be highly encouraging team play and SG bases and such...better to just go with the flow, especially if the IoPs are going to be of such power. I've found that SGs who coordinate with TeamSpeak or Ventrillo and have played together lots can do a lot to take over a zone. The efficiency created by working as a team is phenomenal, and is definately a note-worthy pvp edge.

Binds:

People tend to commonly overlook many binds that could help. Maybe they only save you .5s here, 1s there, but it can matter a great deal. For all gaming, I recomend pretty strongly a full size keyboard with a numpad. Many games, including CoH, are so button-happy a numpad is pretty much a "must". I play on a high-end laptop, and a nice remote keyboard was a good deal both to save me on "gamers claw" and to snag more buttons. YMMV.

Here are some common setups I use for Ice. Obviously some are dependant on certain builds and powerchoices being made, and some are not.

The following is a bind I use to keep good control of Turrets and Heavies in RV. It's a modified version of MM binds, and is usefull in Gladiator battles as well, if you're so inclined.

[ QUOTE ]

/bind numpad0 "bind numpad7 petcomall att$$bind numpad8 petcomall fol$$bind numpad9 petcomall goto"

[/ QUOTE ]

First, to initialize this, you need to press "0". If you're binds don't seem to be working, hit "0" first. Then what this does is allow you to target all your pets on one foe with "7" on the numpad, make your Heavy stop attacking and follow you with "8", and tell him where exactly to go (targetting reticle pops up) with "9" on the numpad.

The following is a "toggle-bind". In arena matches, it is wise to turn off all toggles for the countdown, since some have large recharge timers. When detoggled, held, or whatever, setting this up to get your most needed/less rooting powers up in a hurry is a good idea. You have to hit it repeated times, so hitting it 5x to activate all toggles. It reads right to left, so the rightmost toggle will be activated first.

I like to bind it to V, since it's close to where my hands rest, and V wasn't preset to do much of anything interesting anyways.

/bind v "powexec_toggleon Combat Jumping$$powexec_toggleon Chilling Embrace$$powexec_toggleon Super Speed$$powexec_toggleon Glacial Armor$$powexec_toggleon Frozen Armor$$ powexec_toggleon Wet Ice"

etc, etc. You can bind quite a few powers this way. A word of caution though...I generally favor movement over having all of my toggles up at one time. Glacial is the only one in that string with a rooting effect, for example. If I put leadership toggles in there, I would be notably slower "off the ball" trying to get out of some situations. Same thing with CE. As discussed earlier, CE will play bumper-cars with suppression for you if you're trying to get out...likely slowing you more than your opponents, especially if you're already under the effects of a slow. So the first few presses of V get my essentials up, and the later presses get me a bit more "combat ready" once I'm out of harms way. In general, I prefer a simpler bind setup and being able to manually add on more toggles later for my dueling, but "your mileage may vary".

/bind T "powexec_name Intimidate" puts my fear power one key-stroke away, if I wish. T is a common button for me to use in my various builds, because it's one key over from R, my "run" button, and my movement setup. I've also bound the following to T, in different situations:

/bind T "powexec_name Teleport Foe"
/bind T "powexec_name Ice Storm"

If you have a multi-button mouse, which most people do by now, you can bind stuff to the buttons as well. I liked binding Ice Storm to my thumb button. It's cast time is already rather large anyways. Alternatively, it's pretty easy to use it for your main blast power, or Taunt power, if you so choose.

/bind button4 "poweexec_name Taunt"
/bind button4 "poweexec_name Ice Blast"
/bind button4 "poweexec_name Ice Storm"
/bind button4 "say Darth's guide to Ice-Em rocks! Thanks Darth!" ( I kid, I kid...)

are some examples. For clarities sake, this is an either/or situation...you can't bind all of those to one button, nor would you want to, to be honest.

Vengeance can be a power, both in PvE and PvP, where seconds count. I'd bind that to something too, if you're wise. I like the center button on my mouse, generally speaking.

/bind button3 "powexec_name Vengeance"

I also tend to change some of the basic stuff in the keybinding part of the menu.

Target Nearest Enemy is set to numpad 1 (handy for Stalkers)
Target furthest enemy is set to numpad 2
Target nearest Friend is set to numpad 3 (note that this is any friendly player/faction, including NPCs)

Lastly, just for fun...Ice tends to find he runs into a lot of the same tired verbal stuff over and over again in zones. Someone keeps moving 100-200ft from base and then leaping back. Someone's whining about Hibernate cause he really thought he was about to get a kill. Someone insists on going on and on about one thing or the other and wants to type at you, furiously, from their base while you're out there trying to get your duel on. Eventaully I grew tired of spending time on these same stupid issues from different people and made a few binds to save myself chat time while dueling.

/bind numpad4 "say To those whining about Hibernate: Hibernate is a tier 9 power, much like Elude, Unstoppable, Overload, Granite Armor, and MoG. Unless you have a problem with ALL of those powers, [censored] and duel, fool!" (Which tends to be a conversation ender on that front, usually cause they're playing a build that uses one of those powers anyways. I love it when people in Elude talk crap about Hibernate)

/bind numpad5 "say To those too busy talking crap to Duel: I'm sorry you're unhappy. It's not my fault you suck. Only you are responsible for your suckiness. Learn 2 Play and hit me up for a rematch, eh?"

/bind numpad6 "say Dear PuG PvP Group; This Tank comes equipped with Vengeance! Should you bite the dust, kindly let me buff the smarte...err...surviving members of our party with massive +def and +to-hit by remaining dead for a few."

Obviously if you want to do this too, you should add your own "flavor" and try to be courteous. I try to put a little crap-talk in them, because it keeps people competitive and wanting to aim their damage at Ice. It's a fine line, obviously.

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Main pvp threats:

<ul type="square">[*]Scrappers:
---Primaries: People highly over-rate DM on just about every AT. I never worry about DM, ToF is their one trick, and if you know how fears work you're good. If a DM uses ToF on you, wait until his next strike and simply hop up and down if nothing else. With Hurdle he'll be getting enough "out of range" responses to mean significant damage reduction on our side of things. In general, DM or DA tends to be rather tight on energy, so just EA and whale on em until they fall down. Spines simply doesn't have the damage for you, and they're usually too busy kiting to really bug me much. They need to double team you at least to be worth bothering with. No, the one to sweat is the big-mama melee damage-dealer of the bunch, Broadsword. It's damage is sick and they're going to laugh at your defenses with FA. They have enough acc and burst to take you down, and /SR and /Regen have the endurance to keep it going, especially with hammies.

---Secondaries: Regen is going to be tough for you, simply because the tanker BI is does not allow enough burst damage to put these toons to bed before they can regen on you. /SR is tough too, as they'll resist your slow aura and have great, often suppression-proof movement speed. With your acc/dam HOs and FA, you can get it done. Don't forget that /SR is end heavy, and an EA at the right moment can drop about 1/2 his defense total in toggles and let you get your groove on, whereas it's extremely unlikely you'll be able to end leach a good regen scrapper through Quick Recovery and the oft-used Stamina. Vs Regen, it's actually very nice to have the Ice epic and get some slows and serious -recharge in there to give you some chance to get those last shots in. Ultimately, it takes so much end to take down a regen it usually ends up being a very close fight, and often a draw.

[*]Controllers/Defenders: Much more dangerous in teams than solo. A high level, hammied out Fire/Rad will likely give you fits solo or on teams. On teams, learn to start taking out the defenders first, especially empaths. They're used to it, and they'll be good at NOT dying, so that's a fun game of cat and mouse. If you've gone with the Ice epic, disrupt caster tempo with Chillblain + Ice blast as much as possible to mess them up. Some controllers are tempo-sensitive enough they can't over-stack mez shields very well, even with HOs, if you pelt them with enough -recharge. Not to mention, if you're chasing them long enough and Chillblain finally punches through, you'll have a second or two to SS up and pelt them a good one.

Abusing the hell out of Detention Field and Sonic Cage has become pretty commmon. If you're lucky, they'll be caging you in team matches, freeing up the higher-damaging toons out there to do their thing. Most likely, they won't, though, so be sure to pound on them whenever you can. It's ironic, to me, that this dynamic is not considered lame, but perma-Taunting was unacceptable.

[*]Masterminds: Now belong on this list because they are often able to out-last enough to take down tough opponents. In teams, BG ends up working against them, because the pets won't focus damage when in Defense mode. Be aware that the pets have to be in-range for BG to work, and have to be in Defense. If the MM is attacking a turret or something, it's a good time to rush in with SS, hit BU on the way, and try to take them down before they can switch to defense mode.

While I think BGs percentages are probably over-powered, I do like that the Devs took an interesting approach that involves knowledge, skill, and playstyle to get around rather than some of the slap-dash fixes they've done in the past.

Again, I recomend Ice-Storm, good mix of BU and your damage attacks. I'd keep chillblain on the MM to slow down those that heal their pets and keep them in some -movement for when they choose to run. Killing through the pets is somewhat impractical for a EM, but a SS could probably use a Foostomp/Handclap and Ice-Storm strategy to blow through the pets and KO the MM. Chucking a stunning attack at the MM every once in awhile is a good idea too. Make them either use a BF or spend a few seconds unable to help/support their toons, in addition to having to reset whatever toggles they were running, some of which have long timers. Leadership toggles, for example, are on 15s timers, and, if they're in your CE, it's even longer. *winks*

In general, WH is simply not strong enough that I'd bother to take it in pvp, ever.

[*]Stalkers: We were once the proud papa of the only truly stalker-immune build out there. You have perception. You have massive HP. You have decent defense. You can phase. You HAD an auto-hit slow aura that interupted AS. This had limits, however, in that only YOU were really immune. It was very tough for me to save teamates from stalkers, especially smart ones working in teams to pick off squishy ATs. It's the classic rock-paper-scissor of 1v1 pvp in this game, but since most toons hate stalkers, I just thought it was worth mentioning these guys are no sweat for you. They ARE a threat to any team you may be on, so they still deserve a spot on this list.

Recently AS was made un-interuptable by debuff powers. It's no biggie, 1v1, but is fairly rough in teams.

Remember...Stalkers fear Ice tanks, not vice versa!
[/list]

PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank:

<ul type="square">[*]vs. Melee toons: I often rush in there and get off a preemptive EA. They're usually sitting there thinking "whew, thought he was gonna attack me, but the sucker is letting me get the first hit in! great!". And that's true, too. I want them to get the hit in, cause once i'm down to 2/3 or so HP I hit Hoarfrost to get my +HP and heal in then hasten to get everything charging up on me. This also optimizes my end leach...by opening with it, I take away 1/3 his bar on average. His attacks will take more, and if I'm lucky EA will be up again in time for me to drop his toggles and get a BU+ET in, or a TF at the least. These duels can be long, and EA is usually my margin of victory.

Tanker damage sucks, and melee toons will usually be able to survive your chain. These fights take time, and the energy drain is your big toggle-dropper. Choose your moment to strike, wait till ET+TF+BU are up if possible, then drop thier toggles and and rock 'em. Like I said, tempo is important.

Many melee toons out there are only tier-9 fighters...they'll pop their Unstoppable, Granite, Elude, w/e on you and then think they're going to win cause you can't hurt them much. Well, the defense-sets can be countered to some degree by FA+ BU, but there's not much you can do vs Unstoppable or Granite...I just wait Unstoppable out (tanks and brutes...neither can damage you too much, 1v1). Watch for their crash and own them. That's the problem with teh crash powers, IMO...eventually they're a death-sentence in solo and team pvp.

Don't try to out-tank a granite user. Ignore them instead. WHat are they going to do...chase you? Their damage sucks, their mobility blows, and taunt is counterable by assault and moving around. There's no reason to bother with them, so just ignore them. Many granite users are so desperate they resort to verbally taunting the zone, calling people runners, w/e. It's a fairly obvious ploy, and stems from their frustration about not being able to deal with much of anything except people silly enough to try to take them down in granite. It's like someone sitting in phase and calling everyone else a **ssy. Just ignore them and take their team down around them for the ultimate embarassment.

As with blasters, it's worth your time to avoid a scrappers peak-damage periods. When I see a BS scrapper hit BU, even though I know I can probably live through it, its more efficient to just move back some, make them kite in and out of my slow aura and suppression, try to waste some of it. No need to take someones uber attack-string to the face if avoiding it means you spend less time in hibernate and more time hitting back with your own damage. Especially if you're not returning damage of your own, hell with it, go mobile and pepper em with Ice blasts for -recharge/movement while ET/TF/KoB recharges...whatever works.

[*]vs High Acc melee toons: This gets it's own section...because builds with acc/dam hammis and focussed acc are so common, a mediocre-defense build like Ice is going to have some issues with these boys. Specificly Spines and Broadsword. Only option here is to try to put em down 1st...you'll be taking a lot of damage to your HP, so use it as best you can and hibernate often. You have a lot more than they do, but they'll do more damage. If they seem weak to slows, back up a bit if your about to die and have none of your "bail-out" powers up...let the slow aura make them work to close into melee range again. This is really the only reason I advocate spending the time and energy to get hammis and FA yourself. If no other toons had it either, you'd get by fine without it.

Ice epics can help you keep at range, and/or Aid-Self help quite a bit as well, in 1v1 situations. SR with FA is the most dangerous to you, since they will largely ignore your slows, keep up good damage, have Elude, usually aid-self, and will do good damage. A good BS/SR is a tough duel.

[*]vs. Blasters: Similar to high acc melee toons, getting the 1st strike is very helpfull. I don't recomend using BU on the charge, b/c they may very well fly/jump out, and because of Defiance.

I usually wait until they're stunned to hit BU...also, keep in mind, it's better, when you know they're not going anywhere, to pepper them with the light attacks until their HP is lower, then hit BU and break out the big toys. Why? Defiance. If I let a blaster get away, and it's a capable, high-mobility player, he'll be using defiance-enhanced damage to pound away at me for the rest of the duel, until one of us dies. ET and TF are more than enough to take out 1/2 blaster HP, so I usually try to save them for a 1-2 punch to put the blaster to bed and save myself the HP. The best ones will be highly mobile, as I've said, so be sure to move too, in only semi-predictable patterns. Keep a big gun attack ready to fire if they're at full hp, hope for a stun to keep em grounded. If they try to just jump around and pepper you from range, you have the defense and HP to live till you can hibernate, and they'll eventually try other methods of taking you down. I mainly take TP foe for blasters.

Powerboost + PFF + Aid Self + FoN + Temp Invuln is the common blaster setup. CE can interupt Aid Self, but if they really want to run and heal, they can. Powerboosted Aid-Self is the better part of their HP, and is up often enough. It's doable 1v1, but pretty boring...I've spent some of these duels emoting newspaper for a large portion of the match because I was pretty bored trying to chase them down and I was already ahead in the score.

If you're NOT going to take TP Foe, pepper them with blasts and -recharge, immobs. Eventually they'll either land to take a stand or run accross the whole zone. Smart ones will realize they don't want to be anywhere in melee with you and will keep their distance.

Warning: Learn to watch for the animations. Aim is a yellow version of Build Up. Build Up looks like...build up. Either one is trouble, and some pop both at once. Stay mobile for that time, they're looking to get a hit in and detoggle you. Let them work for it. Even if they do, luck and keeping an eye on your toggles means this isn't too big a deal, but it definately helps to know your animations and know what's coming.

NOTE: Blasters are notorious for running around with 20 breakfrees to counter mezzing of all kinds. While this is not the worst thing in the world, it basicly means you won't be able to stun them too much, so you'll be fighting a highly mobile duel vs this AT.

[*]vs Controllers: High level ones are a pain. They're the one AT that gets the most use out of HOs, in my opinion. Fire/rad is bad for you. The debuffs to acc and damage are so powerfull you will likely be in a LOT of trouble without acc/dam hammis. You need to mez them, and, like blasters, they'll be carrying a crapload of BFs just in case. /storm and /ff will repel the hell out of you. Mind/son is capable of the same. Additionally, and worse, for us, is the fact that a lot of controllers have hammis and a rather ungodly ability to overstack mez protection. Hibernate is some use here, since it lets old holds wear off while the controller is unable to apply new ones. The APPs do a lot of damage, and lead to the whole "blastroller" phenomenon in the late game. With acc/dams and FA, you should have enough acc to punch through debuffs. Tactics builds will be hurt, and you'll have to parse your build-ups carefully. Hit em hard, hit em fast, then take a rest while they respawn and do it all over again. I only carry breakfrees vs these toons...I feel hammis and high level controllers are fairly broken, and since they're going to be using BFs anyway, might as well even the playing field.

Again, the Ice or Fire epics help a lot, being more "anti-caster" based. Controllers often have hard times over-stacking you if you stay mobile and pepper them with the -recharge blasts. Keep them on the defensive when possible.

TK: There's a fairly one-sided dynamic to users who take TK and slot the hell out of it...they can essentially repel you all over a whole map. TK is a fairly broken power, IMO, because it takes 4 BFs to counter the repel. No other effect in the game requires that many that is still affected by BFs. Nonetheless, this isn't a huge deal in teams, as they'll be TKing someone else or wasting a TK on you and someone will come along and light them up while they try to over-stack you. In any case, when TKed, first, hit them with your immob. It has a shorter range and they'll shortly be pushing you out of it. Then hit hasten and blast away at them. Keep an eye on hold icons in your corner...if they over-stack you, it often takes 2 BFs to get out, so it's cheaper to wait till you see 3 holds up and then hit a BF for an extra layer of mez protection for 30s. Like I said, keep the -recharge on them as much as possible and wait for them to make a mistake like coming in close (for EAs drain if you're REALLy lucky). If you simply want to get rid of the holds, hit hibernate and wait for them to dissipate. THis can be double-sided...the controller will want to turn off TK to get it recharging and to save on End, but at the same time will be worried about you popping out and smacking them. Wait to see what they do before deciding if you want to stay in hibernate the whole time.

[*]vs Tanks: O.o! Why are you fighting our tanky brothers? :-D.

Let's assume they're niave and misguided, and have allied themselves with the wrong side. An Ice vs a Stone tank is an exercise in futility. Ditto Ice v Ice. It's always a draw. Ice is the premier tank, with Stone behind it, in that it's more survivable but less of a factor in pvp, thanks to it's severe movement issues. Like I said above, just wait out Unstoppable and ignore them for awhile. End leach the crap out of attacking Fire tanks, that and -recharges are their weakness.

[*]vs Brutes: "Tank-lite", I call em. They like that.

Anyways, be aware that, b/c they like to be in melee range, they'll often play right into your hand. I've fought brutes 3v1 before and won, while they were running Overload and other various tier 9s. How? Well...think about it, you should know by now. 1st, there's not a brute set out there with slow resistance. So, if they're in melee, trying to build fury, they're actually working against themselves. They'd be better off kiting me, but I'd still hibernate out on them before they could kill me. No win for them, but better than being in melee with me. Why? Well, in addition to CE, they were also all in range of EA all the time. That's right...I was mighty low on end from whaling on these guys, but they were right there to lend me their endurance when I needed. One was SS, with perma-rage running, so he hit rather a lot, but with no endurance, he had to save up his strikes of I'd detoggle him with end leach and BU+ET+TF him. Long story short, all of a brutes goals in melee combat play right into your strengths atm, so just go with it. Remember, however, when 1v1, you're better off riding hibernate for the full 30s and running out their Overload/Unstoppable/whatever timer than popping in and out trying to get damage. Just camp. If they call you cheap, just point out that you dont have an overload and they do, and ask them if they think that's fair. *shrugs*

Note that Brutes are supposedly suffering a bug on pvp fury generation. With our tempo-controlling and phase abilities...I don't see it being a huge issue when fixed, but it's worth keeping and eye on.

I have also not had the pleasure of dueling any elec brutes. I give them a nod as a possibly difficult foe, but it'll mainly be a challenge to outwait their Unstoppable-esque power while our -recharge, damage, and end drain are largely mitigated. This is the reason teamwork is a good thing.

For the Ice epic builds, Overload can be annoying. In general...just ignore them. Their damage isn't scary to you, your Chilling Embrace should really lower their DPS and fury. I mean, you CAN go toe-to-toe if you need to, but, in a zone, it's largely a waste of your time/energy to bother to whittle them down. Much the same can be said for any melee toon in their tier 9, to be honest.
[*]vs Stalkers: They're really not a threat to you. In teams, keep an eye out. I used to keep Taunt on the #1 button, and it was the first thing I hit when I saw one, then my attack string. If you're Taunt + FA, then I would still do that.

The defense sets will have a tier 9 with good defense, so keep BU ready too. I once turned off CE and all shields and took an AS straight to HP. With hoarfrost up, it took roughly 1/2 my hp, and even had no other option been available, the stun did not last long enough to prevent me from hibernating before he was able to take the other half.

Some tips for dealing with Stalkers:

--Use stacked perception from Tactics/FA and Glacial armor

--If you went Ice or Fire Epic, blast them with DoTs whenever you see one in Hide. A lot of times they won't have activated their tier 9s yet and it will punch through and disrupt their Hide. Use the DoTs so they can't even begin to re-hide until the last tick of damage has gone off. This is, IMO, even more effective in teams than Taunt, because it reveals the stalkers to your teamates at the same time it nuetralizes a lot of their damage. Many, MANY stalkers will just run off if they've been revealed, which is perfect for you and your team.

--Use fences and know your powers. AS has a 4s animation, 2s of which is it interuptable by direct attack, and then it does a final LoS check before firing off. As with all melee attacks, as long as the target is in range when activated, range is irrelevant, the power will go off. However, with SS and Hurdle, (ideally CJ), you can often simply watch a stalker AS and hop a fence, turn a corner, w/e. If a Stalker is near you, remember to set yourself up with these natural counter-measures and to stay fleet-of-foot.

--BU+ET+TF are very usefull to punch through the defensive sets. Regen is actually the most resilient vs an Ice tank, and their biggest weakness is endurance. Once they pop IH, you might as well save your attacks for 1 min and go evasive.

--If you are going to take an AS to the chest, then just wait to pop Hoarfrost, if it's up. Use the heal to recoup some of the damage in addition to getting more HP to play with. Nothing annoys a stalker like getting you down to 1/4 and seeing it pop back up to ~2/3 and knowing you still have hibernate to pop if the poop hits the fan. Know when NOT to use this though, such as when a corrupter is nearby or against multiple Stalkers who may get a shot in.

In general, they're just not an issue, 1v1. In teams, they still have their place and will get the kill on you more than any other villian class, as befits their role as a primary damage dealer. Just remember, YOUR job in teams is to disrupt their job. If they're bothering with you, they're not out there killing something else.

[*]vs Other Villian ATs: Since brutes and Stalkers are the real pvp threats for you, I'm going to lump everyone else into this zone. Most Dominators and Corrupters are squishy enough for you to 2-3 shot em, and they don't make much of a duel. MMs with the repel field can be annoying. Bodyguard can make them time-consuming solo, and can end up being stalemates. Punchvoke and Taunt are being changed to affect pet AI, so look for that change as well. [/list]

Favorite Teamates and Good Combos for Ice Tanks in PvP:

<ul type="square">[*] Kinetics Controllers: Ok, I love these guys. Why? We make a wicked duo. Ice/Kin probably my favorites, but they're very rare. Fire/Kin much more likely. In general, /Kin isn't considered a particularly strong setup in pvp. So many controller secondaries are good, and /kins tend to specialize in team pvp while a lot of people prefer team/solo secondaries. I like /kin because 2 end drains on any single target is devastating. I can help stack holds/immobs for them to get containment. If they die, the leadership build can pop Vengeance. They can keep Ice healed up pretty well. Speed Boost to keep all the clickies recharging faster, give you more hops if you didn't take a serious vert. Extra damage when you need it. Slows to work with CE. It's a powerfull combo.
[*] Broadsword Scrappers: It's a nasty 1-2 melee punch. There's a Scrapper on Virtue I like to team with, we're pretty sick together. /Regen or /SR are the most common secondaries. Both are effective, but people will tend to pick on a SR more than a Regen. Spine is the darling of the pvp community, and they can combo well with an Ice tank as well. Nonetheless, prefer Broad Sword, and it's my guide!
[*] Other Ice Tanks: Double the Iciness, double the fun. I love duoing with our Icy brothers. Simply standing near each other is a serious -recharge on anyone to come nearby. I mean it. Almost anyone is going to have fits trying to fight two Ice tanks at a time who stay close and play well. If we're taunters, we can divvy up the aggro pretty good, and still have a nasty 1-2 punch. If we're Leadership builds, stacked Tactics + Assault ftw. Control + durability + damage is a good match up. God help you if we're both packing Vengeance and you manage to get a kill in. [/list]

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Team PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank: Your "role" in team pvp is now variable... a taunt-build should focus on Aggro Control----> Combat Support ----> Meatshield, while a non-taunt focussed tank should be= Combat Support ----> Aggro Control----> Meatshield.

Please note that these priorities have changed with the changes to taunt...I feel that punchvoke means your tank should be in there attacking and focussing on redirecting aggro that way, in addition to doing damage. Combat support also includes using slows/immobs/blasts from epics to help pick off people in small duels. They're a decent edge for victory and you should use them.

Essentially, the 2nd array of priorities realizes that Taunt is pretty helplessly borked at the moment and tries to find another way to stay effective. Remember, more than a "true" tank, Ice tanks are often forced into the role of Scranker in pvp, and we've had to adapt to the willy-nilly changes the Devs have forced on us. The bottom line is that the Devs keep really kicking aggro-control in the nuts for pvp. With the current tools available, in punch-voke, I feel a tank can do about as well as he's going to do for aggro control in pvp by simply attacking like normal.

Ice-Cubed racks up a respectable amount of kills in team duels. This is because EM is deadly in short range. When I end up, as often happens in team pvp, in a 2v1 situation where another team-mate and I are after one foe, I usually get the final kill with Build-Up and my two big guns. It is DEVASTATING to almost any toon to fight anyone else AND my ice tank. SS and Swift keep me highly mobile and always right there in the action. This is the reason I like to enhance my travel powers and the fitness inherents...mobility is a big part of my strategy.

Taunt:

I USED to recomend a six-slotted Taunt, 3x recharge 3x duration. Now, on test, the Devs would like us to roll a to-hit in pvp, in addition to changing the dynamics of Taunt itself. Now breaking LoS reduces Taunt duration as well.

In fact, a direct quote from my old guide: "Much the same way a PvE team will be annoyed with a tank who eschews his role as aggro controller and meatshield and scranks, a pvp team will likewise be annoyed by a tank who does not taunt. An easily killable tank is just as annoying, so use the skills you used solo to stay alive and reduce the other sides kill count whenever possible by staying alive."

My how things have changed!

Why I would tend to skip taunt now:
<ul type="square">[*] The rooting 1.67s animation is highly inconvenient in mobile duels where you're chasing someone who is chasing someone else. It's like giving them a free 1.67s lead every 10-20s just so you can keep an aggro status effect on them that they are ignoring anyways.[*] Taunt has a range of 70ft. Challenge and Provoke are 60ft each. Slotting them for range is highly impractical at this stage. All now have the 5 enemy cap.[*] Defense changes means it is possible to be relatively un-tauntable for large periods of time, thanks to defense. This also means one may have to pop build-up to get a taunt in...a really sad state of affairs. Melee foes are most dangerous when in their teir 9 powers, and now it can be extremely difficult to limit that danger with Taunt. For the record, Taunt is typed as Ranged/Energy, as opposed to Intimidate, a power pool, which rolls against psi defense, and placate and many auto-hit powers which do not roll a to-hit at all.[*] People who you would taunt who are chasing other targets can still hit use the "follow" function to chase their target until the time wears off. If it functioned more like placate, and made it impossible to follow the opponent you had been following, THAT might be interesting.[*] PbAoEs and cones can be issues regardless of Taunt.[*] Smart arena players will probably use a BF if they were on the verge of getting a kill anyways, realizing that 1 BF v 1 kill = a good tradeoff. [*] Various of these issues are compounded by no "miss" icon, and no way for the Tank to tell, by graphics, when a punchvoke is applied or when a Taunt has worn off.[/list]
This all affects my opinion on whether to bother with taunt or not. It's rooting animation and activation had always bugged me as a real damage reduction to an already low-damage class. What is with a 1.67s rooting activation on a non-damaging power? Having to six-slot it and spam it hard was even worse, last issue. With it's range, it was of limited use vs high-speed casters. Now, having to roll a to-hit, I can't even recomend it without a steady to-hit buff from either Tactics or Focussed Accuracy if you want to continue to taunt-bot in pvp. Even if you do take it, slotting becomes a real issue. 2x acc, 2x duration, 2x recharge is probably a solid set-up. As you may have noted, a lot of the more successfull pvp builds get a lot of use out of HOs, and there is no HO that would help us here. Maybe if Taunt was considered a "mez", for HO purposes...

It is often ineffective to taunt a foe too much in pvp in hopes of drawing their aggro, as it will likely yield one of the two following results: Target chews a BF and continues on his merry way OR target ignores taunt, goes where he pleases and waits for taunt to wear off.

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PvE Ice Armor Tips:

Now that you have an idea how to fight as an Ice/em Tank, "Darth," you ask, "how can I build and level one efficiently?" Well, Ice is definitely a build that needs a respec to pvp well. It's PvE and PvP concentrations are far too dissimilar. Some general tips include:
<ul type="square">[*]Defenses, hibernate, dull pain your main priorities. Team for damage, Tanks make really boring solo toons anyway. I like to carry a pocket blaster or high level controller with me at all times, PvE. Kinetics work well for you too, as, in high levels, between the two of you you should be able to drain an entire mobs endurance in short time, then clean up.[*]Offensively, focus on AoE power. This lets you solo, hold aggro for teams, and is basicly what your defenses are intended to have you do anyway. Ice is strongest when right in the middle of a pile of foes, using Energy Absorbtion for endurance and defense boosts, CE to minimize incoming damage and taunt the mobs, and likley BU+WH to put the AoE smackdown on em and buy me some time with some disorients. On teams, when PvE, for example, I'd run into the largest clump, hit EA, then DP, then BU+Whirling hands then taunt a far group OR, if it was especially dangerous, I'd skip the WH and just taunt the nearby guys and hibernate until the odds were trimmed down some and the debuffers had done their
job and made things easier for me.[/list]
I've decided not to include a level by level guide to PvE. After reading the PvP guide, you should have an idea of how it all works in PvE anyway, and things like power pools and stuff should really be left up to the player. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to level, I'd go with whatever is fun for you.

However, if you are interested in such guides, I'd take a look at Ccelizic's i6 PvE guide for further PvE info. Circ has a guide on PvE taunting that is a good, quick read to understand how taunt works in pve as well. Circeus' Guide to Taunting

After reading the forum a bit though, decided to add some general Tanking "concepts" that were around a bit more when I was starting up, but seem to be going un-mentioned these days.

Tanking Position: Tanks are very position orientated. With our auras, pbAoEs, melee attacks, positioning yourself correctly is very important. There are 2 primary tanking positions to keep in mind for PvE.
<ul type="square">[*] Centered - You are smack dab in the middle of the mob. The AI will even distribute itself around you, over time, so every attacker has access to melee range. Eventually you will be in the middle of a pile of guys, which is prime as far as the splash-punchvoke from your melee attacks. You're getting maximum value from your aura-vokes and damage auras, pbAoE attacks. Any AoE debuffs you're team is placing on a nearby mob is hitting every other mob clustered around you. It's fairly safe for healers who rely on a pbAoE to run in, pop it off, and run back. Generally Ice would open most PvE engagements by using SS and hopping smack-dab in the middle of a mob.

Here's a rough illustration, in the format the boards permit:

...........xx..........
.........xxxxxx........<--Mobs
........xx.T.xxx.......<--Tank
..........xxxxx........<--Mobs
...O...............O...
..........O..O...O.....<--Rest of your group
[*] On the other side of the mob, facing group - This one isn't known so much, and isn't immediatly obvious. Here's a crude illustration:

...........T...........<--Tank
......xx........xx.....<--Mobs
........xx xx xx.......<--Mobs
.......................
......O..O..O..O.......<--Rest of your group

Why would you do this? Cones and aggro control. If a mobs are grouped around you, their cones will go straight through you and can still affect foes. Any huge AoE attacks could also still hit teamates who wandered too close, in the Centered approach. Now, cones aimed at you will pass harmlessly away from the group. I've had people rez before, near Ice, when I had all the aggro, and get taken down by a stray "Full Auto" or some such from the mobs. It's also easier to see when aggro has shifted away from you. The mobs have to turn 180 degrees to engage your party members. Watch for any group of baddies doing that and hit Taunt. You can also watch for squishies to go red or yellow in the team bar...click or select them and hit tab, and you'll be getting the enemy they are targetting, which is likely the enemy doing damage to them. Taunt that guy.[/list]
Herding- A lost art. Though its nerfing was a good thing, overall, for the game, herding was a lot of fun for Tanks while it lasted. I think a lot of the "art" of dealing with aggro well and some of the ins and outs of the AI are kind of being lost by the userbase, now that the aggro cap is in place and our survivability was nerfed. Obviously the term "herd" means different things now. For the purposes of this section, assume it to mean efficiently gathering up scattered mobs in groups up to 17 deep to expedite their defeat.

Tools for herding:

Line of Sight. The AI tells the enemy that if he cannot see you or attack you from where he is, he must move in closer. Even enemies that prefer ranged attacks obey this rule. Furthermore, LoS is relatively fragile. It can be broken by simply standing behind a lamp post that could not possibly, in the real world, notably obstruct anyone's vision. See-through bus stops also work. Pretty much any physical obstruction, no matter how small, will affect LoS and cause the enemies to move in.

Why bother? It's not a huge deal anymore, I agree. It helps sometimes in PvE and doesn't really mean much of crap in PvE. I have used it, at various times, to keep Mako or some other AV busy and distracted in RV, so it's worth noting there as well. When a single tank can taunt, break LoS, and keep the attention of an AV that can probably 2 shot him, that tank is showing a bit of skill there.

Who can you NOT herd up? Vahz are too damned slow, and keep stopping to puke at you. CoT will also tend to just whale on you from range. The corridors in those missions aren't very condusive to breaking LoS either. Spiders in RV tend to be too slow and to just love spamming their psi blasts at you.

When NOT to herd! There are times, quite often, when it simply does not make much sense to herd. Even back when herding was big, tanks would stop the entire freaking team and insist on herding when it would have been faster to simply kill group to group. Do not do this. A tanks role is largely interchangeable with a controllers, end game. IMO, Controllers, with their containment damage, AoE controls, and buffs, really drive the late game. Often, on a good team, my only real jobs are to hop in the middle of joe-mob and take the alpha, then provide some clean-up melee grunt after the casters do their thing, and to be a meat-sack for AVs to pound on. And that's fine. That's efficiency. Everyone needs to get their "ya-yas" on. The thrust of this is to get you to know how to use your abilities skillfully when needed, but also to recognize when they're NOT particularly needed and just go with the flow, pitching in where you can.

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About me: I'm a college student at UCF, in Orlando. I play in my spare time. Ice-Cubed, my Ice/EM Tank, is my favorite toon in CoX, ever. I took him on in i3 or i4, as my 3rd or 4th tank. I was impressed by another tank, Z3ro Coo1, whose team I was invited to. He herded so damned well I thought he was a kick-butt fire tank till I bothered to check his info, only to discover one of the few high level Ice tanks I'd ever seen. He later took the time to tell me he did very well in pvp too, and had me observe a duel or two when I was skeptical. I also teamed with him in regular PvE missions and was equally impressed with how NOT gimped he was. Later on, since I thought herding was fun, I decided to roll up an Ice tank myself to trade PLs, since the early game has always been a total bore for me. From lvl 20 on, Ice-Cubed was my main, until the massive nerfs of ED and i5 were brought to bear. I left the game for a bit. I later returned and took up Ice again. He is currently lvl 41 on virtue, and I bother to level him when I can take a break from pvp, which is what I really enjoy as our "end game" content. I duel in the arena, in the zones, in teams and solo.

Best of luck with your Icers, and if I'm still playing this game when you read this, feel free to post here or PM me with questions. The "Tanker" global is a good place to meet people and ask questions as well. I also tend to be summonable by making any thread with "Ice" in the topic in the tanker forum.

Posted: 6/18/06. *sighs*

Rocky_Snowball · 06-18-2006 09:41 AM

Wonderful guide. Read it, memorize it, believe it.

Elernet · 06-29-2006 04:20 PM

Wow Joe, and here I thought my guide was gigantic.

Ahem... may I make a small suggestion? Color-coded section titles + Table of Contents. Works wonders in my experience.

Hibernoob · 06-30-2006 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow Joe, and here I thought my guide was gigantic.

Ahem... may I make a small suggestion? Color-coded section titles + Table of Contents. Works wonders in my experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

On it!

And more besides. GG man.

For public knowledge, Elernet did defeat me 1-0 with a build on Test. To date, he is the only stalker to have done so 1v1.

Job well done!

Elernet · 06-30-2006 12:41 AM

Hehe that post was way earlier today actually, look at the time

And BTW the version you linked looks way better thumbs up.

Hibernoob · 06-30-2006 12:45 AM

yeah, saw it later. I'm sleepy.

Few more revisions, but I gotta get busy making vids.

_Crockpot_ · 06-30-2006 03:39 PM

tactic + glacial armor = perception cap? can you see thru hide/invised stalkers? Again, great guide

Hibernoob · 06-30-2006 09:51 PM

Nope, other good point.

I'll link to the perception guide and put some numbers in the next one, but I'm actually about 100ft or so short of what's possible with FA.

Nonetheless, if they use Invisible, you will not see them until they are within 10ft of you anyways, even if you self-cap. To my mind, I'd much rather have them kill a squishy, let me give my team Vengeance, and then tear their whole team apart with it than try to force this kind of "detection" to work.

_Crockpot_ · 07-04-2006 02:57 PM

last question, concerning slows in PvP. With the slow res. in wet ice.. have you ever really ran into a problem with slows before? I know I've gotten slammed with a lot of slows in my limited PvPing.. is permafrost worth picking up just for this ?