magicj

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Fixing those blasting sets to have wider cones and the nukes to have an 85% Endurance drain would enable Defenders to basically duplicate the effects in that video. Herd. AoE control. Nuke. Clean up.

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You're suggesting that Defenders should be able to do everything Controllers can. Or that any AT should be able to do anything that any other AT can. I don't think I can agree to that.

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No, I'm suggesting that the nukes be made useful for soloing and that the blasts be changed so they aren't made significantly less effective by the small amount of scatter from FF.

Edit: To use Dark Blast as an example, Night Fall's cone would be changed to match TT's cone and Blackstar would have only an 85% Endurance drain.

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you tout the purpose of Force Bubble is for gaining aggro on you when you herd.

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That's one of it's uses, yes, but not the only one. The reason I like the power so much is it's extremely flexable. If you experiment with it, you'll find lots of uses for it. I think it's worth experimenting with because the use it's most commonly put to, pushing baddies up against a wall or corner, is probably the least effective use of the power.

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Second, while a FF defender could gather the herd, we do not have the tools to deal with it once gathered and thus the herding techniques just aren't that useful to a solo defender in the same way they are to a mind/ff controller.

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I agree. Doing that with a Defender is a good way to get killed. So you're left without your nuke soloing and with blasts that are made significantly less effective by several powers in your primary, at least for some blasting sets.

Fixing those blasting sets to have wider cones and the nukes to have an 85% Endurance drain would enable Defenders to basically duplicate the effects in that video. Herd. AoE control. Nuke. Clean up.

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Similarly, your video indicates that the two personal bubbles are not that important though

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Well, the video is meant as a tutorial for Herding with FF and with Mind Control. It's not meant as an exhaustive statement about the uses of FF for a Controller.

But yes, the two little bubbles are not as important to other ATs as they are to Defenders. Controllers' primary form of team protection is control. Masterminds' primary form is pets. In both cases the little bubbles are of lesser importance. That doesn't mean don't take the little bubbles, however.

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I simply see no point in herding as a solo Mind Controller. Fire Controller or Claws Scrapper, sure, but not as the largely single-target Mind Controller. But that is my playstyle, not yours.

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Well, with Mass Confusion, Fireball, and Terrify, Mind Control has the tools needed to handle large herds quickly. Check out the video in my sig for an example of me killing a herd of Demons quickly with Mind. That said, this probably isn't the place to debate the merits of Mind.

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Defender solo damage is a major issue with all Defenders, not just FF, but is really a completely separate issue.

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It's the biggest problem I see with Defenders. One which FF is not only unable to mask, but actually makes worse. So no, the problem with Defenders' secondaries is directly related.

Fixing those problems should be the first step.

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This is how it reads: "My secondary works better than your primary, and I want things to remain that way"

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The way it reads to me is FF works and from what I can tell Defenders' main problems with the set arise from shortcomings in their secondary.

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But Force Field is so much more, and could be even more with modifications, especially to Defenders.

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As I pointed out several times in that list I provided, many of the modifications proposed so far would not do more, but actually less, than the current implementation.

Other suggestions are basically harmless, but also useless. An example is adding a chance to Stun to Force Bolt to help out more with AVs. AVs aren't going to be affected by a single Stun.

Tenzhi
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I presume you got Repulsion Field and Repulsion Bomb mixed up here?

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Not that I'm aware of.

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That's a nice little video, who does the music?

As a side note, I can see where you might think that Defenders' blasts are "weak" because we can't really do the same things that controllers can like what you showed in the video.

Then again, most archetypes can't do everything that other archetypes can. There is some spillover, the edges are gray and not solid, but there are some things that we just weren't meant to do.

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The music is Janet Jackson.

And just to be clear, I don't consider an FF Defender weak. The set works for Defenders. I just doesn't work as well for them as it does for other ATs. I think only minor changes to the secondaries are needed to change that. Fix the cones so they work with Knockback. Lower Endurance drain on nukes to 85%. Do those simple little things and Defenders _could_ do the things I do with my Mind/FF.

Also notice how Repulsion Field saved my bacon from those PPs. As soon as PFF was lowered, it knocked them all down and gave me time to get things under control.

"Fix" Repulsion Field by changing it to a drop and not only is my bacon not saved, I couldn't use it during that herding sequence at all.

Nor could I use it for chaos control.

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I like pie.

Arcanaville likes Pi.

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As an example of the pie already in FF, here's a herding with FF video I just put together. Yes, there is a Mind Control section, but the FF section is all FF. I think it's useful for context in this discussion.

Herding with FF video

magicj's list of concerns with changing FF

[u]General Concerns[u]<ul type="square">[*]Force Fields generally works as-is for every AT other than Defenders. This suggests to me that the problem is with Defenders' secondaries, not Force Fields. This general concern is based both on which ATs tend to complain about FF and which don't, and from personal experience playing FF in varous ATs including Defenders.[*]I personally see it likely that any changes other than minor tweaks to existing capabilties will ripple through to ATs other than Defenders. Because FF is working so well for me in other ATs, I personally don't want to see this happen. [*]I do not wish to see any changes in Force Fields take priority over known issues, such as the performace of Defense based sets against ToHit buffs, particularly in PvP.[/list]
[u]Power Specific[u]

Personal Force Field:<ul type="square">[*]FF already has the ability to protect the player with Dispersion Bubble. This, combined with Epic/PP shields offers significant personal protection while still using other powers. I don't see any great need to modify PFF to add to that protection. Edit: As an example, an FF Controller with Dispersion Bubble and the Epic Ice Shield has stronger Smashing/Lethal Defense than an Ice Tank.[*]Any change to the power that significantly lowers it's Defense will cripple not only this power, but the entire set. I consider PFF to be the single most important power in the set. It is _the_ keystone power of Force Fields.[/list]
Deflection and Insulation Shields:<ul type="square">[*]I have no concerns about these powers and don't consider them to be key powers in the set for ATs other than Defenders. Useful, yes. But not key.[/list]
Dispersion Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]I'd like to see this power retain it's current Defensive capability. I have no concerns with raising its Defense (other than an increase is not needed. See the PFF section for an example why), but don't want to see it lowered as part of a trade off for an "improvement".[*]I don't want to see it's Hold or Stun protection lowered.[*]I naturally have no objection to adding Sleep protection, so long as there is no trade-off in Defense or Hold and Stun protection.[/list]
Force Bolt:<ul type="square">[*]I personally don't consider this to be a key FF power for any AT other than Defenders. I have no concerns with changes to this power.[/list]
Detention Field:<ul type="square">[*]I have no objection to buff the Defender version of this power so that it can "cage" AVs.[*]I have no objection to making this power more visible.[*]Other than that I do no want to see any changes to this power's existing capabilities.[*]I have no objection to the Devs adding +Pie to the power, so long as existing capabilities are kept.[/list]
Repulsion Field :<ul type="square">[*]I do not want to see this power changed to a drop. Such a change would _reduce_ it's effectiveness. A PBAoE toggle can simulate a drop simply by standing in one place. A drop cannot simulate a PBAoE toggle.[*]I do not have any objection to buffing the power's current capabilities, such a pulse increase or Endurance reduction if the Devs feel such changes are not overpowered. I do not consider such buffs to be a need.[*]I do not consider adding +Pie to this power to be a need, but would not object to it.[/list]
Repulsion Bomb:<ul type="square">[*]I do not wish to see this power changed to Knockdown as this _reduces_ the capabilities of the power. All Knockback powers can be made to cause Knockdown with the use of positioning. The reverse is not true.[*] I do not wish to see the power changed to a cone, as this would _reduce_ the capabilities of the powers. A cone effect is already possible with the use of positioning. But a cone power cannot provide 360 Knockback with positioning.[*]I do not wish to see this power changed to work off an teammate. I find this power to be extremely useful solo.[*]I have no objection to buffs to existing capabilities such as damage, Endurance cost, casting and recharge time if the Devs feel such buffs are not overpowered. I do not consider such buffs to be a need.[*] I do not consider +Pie to be a need, but would not object to it.[/list]
Force Bubble:<ul type="square">[*]I do not wish to see the size of the bubble changed.[*]I have no objection to adding +Defense or +Resistance to the power. I do not consider this to be a need.[*]I do not want to see any other form of +Pie added to this power. In particular, I do not wish to see a -Speed, -Recharge, or -Damage capability added.[/list]

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Anyone can REQUEST anything from anyone, as long as we live in a free society.

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That's right. But it doesn't change basic manners.

And while we're on the topic, stop trying to deny me the right to express my opinion and we'll get along just fine.

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I ASKED you to leave a thread who's title is "Make Your FF Change Suggestions Here!"

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It is not your place to make such requests. And to be quite frank, after seeing your suggestions on how to change FF, you need all the help you can get. Putting your hands over your ears and saying "I can't hear you" doesn't change the fact that FF Knockback doesn't work with Defender blasts and that FF herding doesn't work with Defender nukes. Nor does it change the fact that that's why folks don't take those FF powers.

And if you feel that Defenders will be the only ones affected by these changes, I have to disagree with you. Folks won't be happy with one set getting, say, -Speed in a power and other sets not getting it, even if the -Speed is pointless and probably counter-productive.

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Where you caught hell from me was when you told me to shut up for pointing out this obvious fact.

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Please quote where I told you to "shut up", using those exact words.

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You told me to leave the thread, which is exactly the same thing as telling me to shut up.

You're a smart guy PK and you clearly love FF. But yours isn't the only voice in this discussion. Nor will Defenders be the only AT affected by whatever changes come from this, if any.

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And some other people like magicj are on the other side (let's call it Mt. Everest) and want to see NO change to the set whatsoever.

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I don't deny there's a problem with FF Defenders. I played one. I deleted it.

What I want to see are changes made that will actually be effective. When I look at FF and Defenders' secondaries, blasting doesn't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes. When you take away the Knockback powers and the herding powers from FF, all that you're left with is the buffs. And that's _why_ Defenders play their FFs like buff bots. The other powers don't make any sense to take for Defenders except in specialized circumstances.

Where you caught hell from me was when you told me to shut up for pointing out this obvious fact. But like it or not, until the problem with Knockback and Defenders blasts is solved, Defenders have little motivation to take their Knockback powers. In fact, there's lots of motivation not to take them. And changes like adding some sort of Debuff to the Knockback (which you can already do with IOs) won't change that fact.

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But I don't think the discussion here is ready to go into specific power suggestions yet.

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IMHO, until folks on the Defenders board can admit to themselves that the secondary doesn't work with the primary, you won't be ready.

There may be some sort of tweak to FF that can help Defenders in some small way, but until the basic issue that the blasts don't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes is addressed, a Force Field Defender will remain primarily best suited to being a buff-bot. Those are the only powers an FF Defender has that don't interfere with their blasts.

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I really like your videos, but I can't help but think your views are coloured a controller shade. They're your secondary, our primary. Go play your FF/* for a bit and come talk.

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Thanks. And yes, Control plays a big part in those videos, they're Controllers after all. But the things those two Controller can do, like tank Lusca or an AV, or herding, depend on Force Fields to work.

As to playing a FF/*, I did. And when I give my opinion on what it's short comings are, the secondary, I'm told to leave. This thread is only for talking about useless ideas like adding -Speed to Force Bubble to Defenders only. We can't mention obvious facts like combining one of Force Fields big strengths, herding, with one of Defenders big strengths, nukes, will get you killed. Nor can we mention that some Defender's secondary blasts are so poorly designed that using powers from your FF primary effective nullifies those secondary blasts.

We can only talk about rediculous ideas like adding -Speed to a power that already slows down baddies and adding a chance to Stun to Force Bolt to "help out more in AV fights".

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When it comes to FF, those differences are very important.

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Understood. My comment was basically saying that while there are differences in FF between the ATs they are a question of degree. The idea that this thread is for discussing the merits of, say, adding a Stun to Force Bolt for Defenders only and anyone who plays FF from any other AT should just go away is just silly. If changes like that are made, all ATs will be affected.

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I guess we have all met Tanks that couldn't work along with Force Bubble.

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Yes. In fact, I'm one of those Tankers. I have a 50 Ice/Axe/Artic Tanker that doesn't like FFers who think Force Bubble is an "always on" power. Tankers want baddies in their auras to help maintain aggro and do damage. SS and WP Tanks basically _need_ guys around them to survive.

But that doesn't make Force Bubble a bad power. In fact, it's pretty darn useful. None of my Mind/FF toons have Total Domination, but there's no way I'd ever drop Force Bubble.

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The "lesser" powers of FF are simply not very fun or useful.

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They're not straight forward like, say, Total Domination is. They don't follow the usual "click a baddie, click a power" way of working. In return you get powers that aren't limited to a single role, that allow for flexability, innovation, and actual skill in their use. In other words, they're interesting. They're engaging. And they can suprise us with what they can do. Granted, sometimes that suprise isn't pleasant, but we can learn from that and move on to the better suprises.

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The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master....

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Which I have repeated stated, that if it requires that much work, there is something wrong. Yes, it's obvious that you and MagicJ thrive on that level of complication, but the rest of us just don't.

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And honestly I'm happy with that. I don't mind if most folks feel another set is a better match for them.

But what I'd hate to see is FF made just like every other set. I'm very happy the game has a set that's a bit more work. Please don't take that away from me. Folks who want straight forward sets already have lots of choices. I don't.

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Yes, but putting up PFF takes down dispersion bubble and force bubble. So those that you've aggroed and once kept at bay are now free to swarm right up to you and start firing. Now if you're lucky enough to survive that kind of punishment (all it takes is a few lucky hits from an LT or boss and you're dead, with with PFF) it won't be long before you lose that aggro and they wander off to attack the troller standing a few feet away from you. Then what hot shot?

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Hmm... taking punishment is what FF is all about. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but please have a look at my FF video to see what I'm talking about.

It's moments like you're describing that are the main reason I love playing FF, they don't make me want to play something else.

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Interesting points indeed, and I can agree with virtually all of them. Every now and again I'l run into a FF defender or troller that, despite having the two teammate bubbles, simply won't use them.

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Well, we Controllers feel that our first line of team defense is our control. It's not uncommon for us (me included) to stop bubbling the team if we see our controls have the green bars at or near full.

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Yes, it server only to underscore how the only way to get any kind of effectiveness out of FF powers is to become some kind of geometry/bubble guru, something most players simply do not want to become.

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I wouldn't have phrased it that way, but in general I agree with you. After playing bubbles for years I'm _still_ learning things I can do with them. For me, that's a huge plus for the set.

And again, it's not hard for me to see why some folks wouldn't be happy with that. For them, there's the option of just taking the "Big 3" or playing a more straight forward set like Sonic.

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That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base.

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You've said this several times. Sonics is NOT FF. Defense works differently than Damage Resistance and is actually LESS effective, which makes Sonic's rings in general less useful than bubbles, and the entire rest of the Sonics set has almost no similarities to FF. And NO ONE is seriously suggesting that we completely change half the powers (looks up) okay, almost no one. We just want some "tweaks" to differentiate the set from the other FF sets. That's all.

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Yes, I realize FF is not Sonic. But when Sonic came out everyone was saying "No one will play FF again." and they _were_ saying it was "FF done right".

Well, IMHO, FF is FF done right and certainly no one is making such outlandish claims about Sonic anymore.

I understand your desire for wanting to see your favorite set become more popular. I'm just offering the idea that attempts to appeal to the more casual player have failed once and may fail again. And that just because you have some folks on a message board saying "I would play FF if..." doesn't mean they'd play FF if.

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5.) Repulsion Bomb. See previous entries as to why uncontrolled 360 degree KB is BAD.

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Is it really so hard to stand on the edge of the group and use the power? There's no 360 KB then.

And when the teams getting swarmed, a 360 KB followed by Force Bubble can be awesome. It splits the baddies into smaller groups. You can use geometery to keep the groups seperated and the team can focus on one small group at a time.

I don't want to go through the rest of your post line by line. This example serves. And while I can understand the feeling of many folks frustrated with the powers, at the same time once you get a feel for them they're extremely useful.

That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base. The set's not broken and I don't see where some folks are getting the idea that "fixing" it will make it more popular.

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I would feel comfortable saying that its very likely a majority of FF players are not especially happy with the non-bubbles also. But that's not quite what I said: I said I'm not certain that a majority of players think that is actually a major problem.

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Correct. One of the "selling points" of FF is that it can be played with so few powers. Even folks like me who are saying "but the rest of the powers are good to if you invest time in them" don't deny that.

So, from that, if these changes we're discussing were made, would players suddenly take these powers? I'm guessing no. A "fixed" FF is already available: Sonic. Not many folks play that set either.

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We've heard the propaganda about how Knockback is what makes FF so great.

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Knockback is certainly part of it. Particularly since it affects bosses. But the truth is, all of the powers in FF are pretty darn good.

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The only people that think FFs are alright are the ones that never play them.

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I'm thinking no. I've got an FFer on every server in the game and if I can't match PKs 200 levels, I'm certainly close.

I can agree that it's not a set for everyone. And I don't think it should be made into a set for everyone. That was already tried with Sonic.

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I'm a VERY patient man. That's how I found all of the uses for the powers that I did. Not everyone, in fact MOST people, aren't that patient. They want instant results, and that's something that ForceFields' "other six" doesn't give you. Like Bleu Cheese dressing, it's an acquired taste that you appreciate the more you use it.

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/signed

But I'm not sure that changing FF to just another set where you click buttons is the answer. FF and Storm are unique in that what the powers do depends as much on the player as the power. FF actually even more so than Storm.

I personally really enjoy that feature of FF and would hate to see it lost in favor of making it just another button mashing set. The game has _plenty_ of button mashing sets already.

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So the folks who want to just log on, play a set that's pretty straight forward, collect their badges and go prefer to play a set other than FF. As I see it, that's fine. It's not a problem that needs to be solved. Stalkers in PvE _is_ a problem that needs to be solved.

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Now, it's possible that a constant -Res is too powerful.

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Probably not. The only way -Res would get you around the problems with the nuke is if it did Blaster level damage, which is not something I think anyone is suggesting. Otherwise, you have to do what you do now: blast with your mismatched cones until you hope you've done enough damage that your nuke will kill everything. And if you guess wrong, you're probably going to die.

In other words, no reasonable amount of -Res solves the problem. I'd be much happier with a reduction of a Defender's Endurance drain for using nukes from 100% to 85%.

And _no_ buff or debuff is going to change certain key blasts from being made disfunctional by Repulsion Bomb and Repulsion Field. A problem I don't have on any FF build except a Defender FF build.

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.like a beach ball or ping pong ball....if nothing else doing that would add some interesting tactics if not some more fun to the usage of the power.

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I LOVE this idea.

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We agree that with the simple effects that these powers provide it creates alot of "extra" effects in the meta-game. But most people don't, won't, or can't see that. What we need is more REAL effects so that the "average" player will see themselves making more of an obvious difference to their team's success. That is what will make the PRIMARY more flashy and attractive to more players. Right now all the other primaries are more flashy and are arguably more useful against AVs/GMs. We need to fix that somehow.

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I don't have you on ignore PK, and probably never wlll. I enjoy reading what you have to say (most of the time ).

Anyway, if the Devs can come up with ways that help the "average player" with FF but don't take away from the "better player", fine. But I'm going to speak out on thing s that I think would hurt the set.

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PLEASE, pretty please, with sugar on top. This discussion is about the primary and primary alone.

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The primary can't be disentangled from the secondary. There are certain aspects about Defenders' secondaries that make playing an FF Defender less appealing than playing FF in some other AT. Doing something like adding -Res to Force Bubble isn't going to change that. You could add -Res -Speed -Damage and +Pie to Force Bubble and I would still skip over a FF Defender in favor for FF in any other AT.

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In addition, there is the fact that, while solo, the FF Defender draws upon considerably less damage mitigation than a debuff Defender like Dark or Rad.

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I really don't think this is true. With Knockback, things aren't attacking until they're back up again, at which point you just knock them down again. With caging they're not attacking at all. With PFF it really doesn't matter if they're attacking.