lionsbane_EU

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Grabs a chair and starts counting how many more posts after

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Ok. you'll be pleased to know Im done

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What? I dont deserve an encore?

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I can never get my point across here.


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Yes, you would think someone who was such a great marketing expert would be able to sell thier ideas, wouldn't you...

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Good backatcha.

Aniother example of your understanding of the subject.

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Ok. you'll be pleased to know Im done. I keep forgetting I am talking to a forum that is completely across the board from age, to career or school, to mentality.


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So instead of maybe listening to other people, or trying to find an other way to explain your points you go and insult all forum members as not understanding you?

And that is even the forum members who never ever replied to a one of your posts?

Who on earth do you think you are?

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I dont think I'm being disagreed with. I think I'm being downright insulted. Go back a few posts starting with that Raven guy. (or girl)

I'll debate happily, in fact thats what i enjoy, and I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. None. Zip. Nada.

But, I'm not communicating around low level jerks like that. And as for FFM, telling me to go away rather than just counter or (heaven forbid) agree with my point, aint conducive to me wanting to actually debate with him. Or anyone that is insulting or tells me or anyone else to go away.

that's why I'm out of here.

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This is what Lions does. He throws "facts" around in his arrogant fashion, gets more aggressive as people disagree with him, and then storms out of the conversation in a hissy fit, firing a broadside at the entire community in the process.

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Can you please confirm that you dont think I was insulted by Raven, tainted Geek and yourself, to name but three? Did you not tell me to go away? Was that your definition of debate? I "hissy fit" low level forumers. My definition of low level? People who are insulting or rude to others without being directly insulted first.

Dont try throwing stones at me cause you got plenty of glass in the way.

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Ok. you'll be pleased to know Im done. I keep forgetting I am talking to a forum that is completely across the board from age, to career or school, to mentality.


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Oh great, the 'im too smart for you retarts' reply.

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That is not what I meant and I never said it either. I talk high level stuff (rightly or wrongly) and there is always a twerp (like that guy who originally knocked me) who cannot begin to comprehend what I'm saying, even if its wrong, There are the bandwagon merchants who jump on board.
That occurs when you have a cross section like this.
And is why, given that I talk from the hip, I can never really communicate here.

I was not insulting anyone. Except those lower denominator types that fall into those catagories. I guess I was insulting them.

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Movies and games are totaly unrelated to eachother, lets not forget Matrix Online, Lotro, or any 'movie that tried to make a MMO' game.

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It's not the movie thats the key. Its the profile of people watching it that counts.

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WoW succes was greatly due the insane succes on Warcraft itself, not on some movie or media of such. Succes of maple? For sure not anything media related. Though i still waiting for MapleStory: The Movie.

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I dont think Warcraft had 11 million players. I think it more likely got the Harry Potter phenonenom. Which is something you cant predict but you sure as heck can learn from.

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Perhaps you should make your posts more in a 'imho' way, rather then profiling it as 'facts'.

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This is the reason I replied one final time. Every post i do has a byeline saying this is only my opinion.
I cover every single point I make with that line on my sig and I originally put it there to ensure people knew it was only my opinion.

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We understand what mirroring is. My mum loves going to see blockbuster special effects action movies, but she has never read a comic book and won't go near a computer.

If mirroring worked, why aren't 95% of blockbuster movies about orcs?


Oh yeah, and where is Brain Training, the motion picture?

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Huh? you think that's mirroring?

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I believe he does work in marketing.

But I know a few people who work in in education who don't understand the first thing about it, but believe they are great experts... (you have probably been in a few of thier classes)

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Ah, but does he work in marketing for the videogame industry? I don't think he does, and the techniques used in whatever industry he DOES do marketing for aren't going to work the same for the videogame industry. It's way too fluid.

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Hmmmm. The basics apply to everything. It all comes down to the same thing. Selling your product. And within that the same type of rules apply pretty much for everything.
It's the naunces that are different.
My issue is that the basics are not in place here.
I'm not here to give a deep lesson in marketing. I'm saying that this game should be riding very high on an increasingly powerful wave of super hero attention.

What any product on earth needs is brand awareness.

Nothing anywhere can get better, second stream advertising or encouragement for its product than this game potentially gets from the movies, tv, comics, etc etc etc.
And that awareness doesnt cost this company a penny. All they have to do is scoop it up.

Ok. you'll be pleased to know Im done. I keep forgetting I am talking to a forum that is completely across the board from age, to career or school, to mentality.

I can never get my point across here.
Shame cause if there were enough of us chanting from the same hym sheet, maybe something would be done. (although that survey does interest me.)

Finished.

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When the subs rise and i'm critising, then you can tell me im ignorant, big boy.

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I have lol'ed in a suitably hearty fashion.

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Care to qualify that? It was pretty simple statement.

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If the gaming industry reflected the film industry it would be RomCom Online that had 11.5 milion subscribers.

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This is precisely why i get criticized so much, Praf.

I dont know why this affects MMOs so much, although I have an inkling, but somehow the connection of profiling seems to escape them. A vast number of people who go the see a super hero film are the exact mirror profile for MMOs.

Therefore, this game should have double or treble its playbase.

All the game has to do is position these people to actually want to play it, in the first instance, then keep on playing it in the second.

That's it. Baboom.

I'm not sure how many people understand what mirror profiling is. Or how powerful it can be.

That's not an insult by the way. It's a specific "science." I dont expect you to necessarily understand that anymore than I understand the technicalities involved in your profession.

But the marketing people at this and other MMOs sure as hell should.

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And sadly once again, what was once a respectable thread with some good content goes down the path of bickering and arguing. The worst thing is, I am not remotely surprised

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Dont look at me. I was only making my obsevations before the insults started flying in. I dont agree with a lot of opinions here but I don`t point to anyone personally and insult them.

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I am not a fanboy of the way development of some aspects of the game but you my friend are plain ignorant and make an easy target for everyone else.

Thats all.

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Seems to me, that as I am a major critic of the way the game is being run, that there is a simple way, in fact the only way, to state i'm wrong.
Healthy subs.

When the subs rise and i'm critising, then you can tell me im ignorant, big boy.

And if you think that with super heroes dominating the media, us being the only mmo super hero game in the wold and the way the subs have been declining for years are pointing to a healthy well managed game, then what can I say?

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I have never ever even noticed you. I just happened to reply to the nearest post. You have never said anything that caught my eye.

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And please don't use me as a springboard for your rants unless you're quoting something I've said which is actually related.

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Now you are on my radar I'll be sure to give you a miss, particularily as you never sem to say anything that i deem worth replying to.

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Complete contradiction much?

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Howso? If he was on my radar it would be because at some point he would have said something that I would have considered interested or noteworthy. I hadnt so he hasnt.
What's contrary about that?

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I believe DCO is canceled (the atari/rockstar etc story right?)

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You're thinking of CO, Atari have just bought up Cryptic, and no, it hasn't been cancelled.

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I need to understand why, amongst all this activety, If it is actually on the cards, they haven't announced something.

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I need to know or understand why you choose to repeat this diabolical pile of dingoes kidneys at every possible opportunity, but most of all, I need to know why you chose a quote which has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of your rant to hang it off.

I actually feel insulted that you should quote me and then go off one one like that. You've demonstrated time and again that you don't know what you're talking about. Please stop.

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Feel good again.

I have never ever even noticed you. I just happened to reply to the nearest post. You have never said anything that caught my eye.

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And please don't use me as a springboard for your rants unless you're quoting something I've said which is actually related.

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Now you are on my radar I'll be sure to give you a miss, particularily as you never sem to say anything that i deem worth replying to.

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Nothing at all unusual about that. It's the way the gaming industry works. Most games are in development for a couple of years before they are anounced. Why? several reasons:

1) Usual buisniness practice, to make it hard for your competators to steel a jump on you.

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That may be usual business practise in MMOs but its time for a wake up call. This game has not got the player base to survive a new major hit. CO is round the corner. DC is coming. The reason those games have announced what they have announced, is to whet the appetite of potential customers. Create a sense of anticipation. And CoH needs to react to that.

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Things get canceled, or undergo major changes, especially in the early stages. This generates negative publicity, if the product has been anounced, but what players don't know can't hurt them.

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That hasnt been true for this game since Marvel was originally announced. A new super hero game is direct competition for this one, even moreso than, say Warhammer, and I know for a fact that WH affected CoH.

There is too much going on with some pretty heavy competition to maintain that atitude.

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3) Anouncing a sequal can be damaging for the current game.

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That is possibly true. But, firstly its a risk they simply have to take to stay in the game and secondly, it can depend on how they present the upcoming sequel.

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Games take years to develop. If you anounce it to soon everyone has forgotten about it by the time it is complete. So you leave off official anouncement until you are ready to start ramping up publicity for launch.

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Bearing in mind the original Marvel game was announced some years ago now I would honestly truely like to think that something substantial has been in the background for quite a long time now.

The fact that game was discontinued was pure luck because if that was coming out rather than CO, given the current offering COH has, this game would have sunk without trace.

As it is, it at least has a chance against CO, simply because its not Marvel or DC.



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My prediction: CoX2 will be anounced in Positron's 5th aniversary address, for release early 2010.

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Maybe. by then, IF CO is on schedule, it will be out and many players here will have already tasted the "poison apple." And its a lot easier to encourage someone not to do something than it is to prise them away if theyre enjoying it.
Not so smart.

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I believe DCO is canceled (the atari/rockstar etc story right?)

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You're thinking of CO, Atari have just bought up Cryptic, and no, it hasn't been cancelled.

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I need to understand why, amongst all this activety, If it is actually on the cards, they haven't announced something.

I dont think many people understand what a bad state the game is in.

If, we were the only supermarket in town and we were barely making a profit, there would be something very badly wrong indeed.

Two of the highest grossing films of last year (so far exceeding $300,000,000 ) were Iron Man and the Dark Knight. There are umpteen super hero films planned for the future.

Who watches these films? Or TV like heroes and all the other super heroey stuff thats on these days?

I guarentee you a fair percentage of those fit the profile of a typical mmo player perfectly.

I'm giving my age away here but i remember the Bruce Lee phenomena, long before computers or internet.

We would leave those cinemas so pumped up. We bought the huge number of Bruce lee magazines and memorabilia, Karate and kung fu classes popped up everywhere.

That's what movies can do to you.

there is currently, across the same planet that grossed $600,000,000 + just for 2 super hero movies, just ONE super hero mmo in all the world. All those 14-35 year olds who have a bit of a fantasist in them, a strong imagination, have or have the mind set to, play MMo games.

And here we are, the only MMO superhero game in town with a current sub base of 120,000 ish.

There is something very very wrong with that statistic.

Why did Nc buy this game exactly, If they weren't planning to attack that almighty msrket out there?

It is a text book marketng strategy to let your potential customers know what you are planning. Right now, a typical super hero fan is far more likely to be waiting for CO or, more likely DC online than to play this game.

And its because this game reeks lackluster in almost every department, paricularily marketing.

The outside world knows about CO and DC.

Now, I say, if you have got something up your sleeve, stop playing stupid, counter productive, secrecy games and let the fan base know what is going on. Because otherwise, I guarentee, too many of us will be gone and hooked onto these games that we do know are coming out.

Wake up NC!

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And don't give me that [censored] about making more people try it to get everyone to enjoy it. Not everyone will enjoy it, please accept that however much PvPers like it, some will always hate it.

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It is not, as you put it, [censored].

Of course not everyone will enjoy it. But, if theyre exposed to it, SOME players will have a go and WILL enjoy it.
And thats more than there are currently right? And hopefully as time goes on even more will do so.

Cant see anything wrong with that.

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Because the idea seems to be to allow no-one to escape from PvP anywhere except inside missions. That seems like [censored] to those that will never like PvP. It doesn't matter if 75% of folk decide to love PvP (and that is a madly overoptimistic number), it's still [censored] for those that don't. Not even the most enthusiastic PvPer claims everyone will love it.

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Thats true but we're talking concentual PvP. or I am anyhow.
If you're standing in Steel somewhere and you see a PvP battle going on, surely thats not going to offend or bother you or anyone else, even if you dont like PvP personally.
Because, in this instance you would have opted not to do PvP and therefore cant be directly affected by the fight.

What I'm saying is that someone else, who never seriously thought about PvP may think, "that looks cool," and decide to try it for themselves.

I dont see why that should offend even the most die hard PvE player.

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And don't give me that [censored] about making more people try it to get everyone to enjoy it. Not everyone will enjoy it, please accept that however much PvPers like it, some will always hate it.

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It is not, as you put it, [censored].

Of course not everyone will enjoy it. But, if theyre exposed to it, SOME players will have a go and WILL enjoy it.
And thats more than there are currently right? And hopefully as time goes on even more will do so.

Cant see anything wrong with that.

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Why push PvP down the throath of those who do not want to? What you if you team up with someone who 'accidently' left his flag on, gank galore.

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Well no because the flag would be visible and you'de point it out to that player, no? Really, I think thats a minor issue.

the trouble with PvP going forward is its such a mess now. Made far worse by Castles interference. To make it work now, to my mind requires a step by step process that could end up in the possible CoH2.

for example, as I stated, I believe one issue with PvP is that the zones are away from PvE. So a casual player who doesnt fancy PvP doesnt get an opportunity to see it first hand and maybe get tempted to have a go. Because they cant be bothered to go to a PvP zone in the first place.

Thats why, to begin with, I think controlled PvP (SG v SG possibly should be allowed in any zone.

Next I think they should merge the games, allowing villians and heroes to enter enemy territory for game reasons (prizes in enemy zones, missions etc) And although they cant attack someone in enemy zone, they CAN be attacked.

I think that, with PvE players going about their business and suddenly theyre witness to a PvP fight, at least some of em will want to try it themselves.

Which brings me to powers. I personally just dont understand why a player would want to build up their alts powers only to find they work not as intended in PvP, for the sake of parity.

If we accept that there are simply too many variables of power sets to ever be balanced, that each attempt to balance simply creates resentment and a whole new set of imbalances, then we can move forward.

Not to mention that we had a whole lot of fun in the early stages of PvP, when Tankers were Tankers and blasters were blasters etc etc.
What let PvP down then wasn't really the sets or imbalances (although its true there were tweaks required) but the lack of content for PvP, which exists to this day, even after CoV came out.

Sorry but if im an invulnerable Tank and we're soloing, you should have a real problem with me. Thats why I chose that power set in the first place. To simulate being an invulnerable character. Seems a bit daft if I'm one shotted every 5 minutes.

So, the game could invent craftable temporary items that may help even the odds.
That's thematic and makes sense.

And rock, scissors paper is a perfectly reasonable play style particularily in teaming.

Thats my penny worth anyhow.


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Just put the PvP where it belongs, deserted maps where people can openly yell and curse on the broadcast, without annoying those who just play this game as PvE.

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As long as you are not forced to participate if you dont want to then it belongs in the open game, not shunted aside, for reasons i gave earlier this post.

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IF it had been designed with PvP from the start, this issue wouldn't exist.

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It is totally 100% the case. the game was built with Arena and the PvP that goes into the arena, in mind.


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No it's not. If it were the case, arena's would have existed at launch instead of not arriving until issue 4, with a half arsed story explanation that barely makes sense within the game world.

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I followed the games development from the very first time it was announced back god knows when. Arenas and therefore PvP were in the pre alpha or beta Qand As. Can you please accept certain things at face value? PvP was intended from the start.
I know the contrary to that is why was it so under developed.?

My theory, based on reading between the lines of early interviews abnd such like is that they didnt think it would take off initially (prior to CoV) because its anti thematic for heroes to pound each other in Atlas park. So players wouldnt do it.

In fact Statesman alluded to this by claiming the arena was where heroes could "train " against each other.

I actually understand this. They felt they didnt want to devot much energy to something that wasnt going to take off any time soon.

They were, in hindsite, wrong, but thats 20-20 vision for you.

And there is no excuse for them leaving it as late as they did and creating the havoc that global nerfs and Ed caused to accomodate it. And before I get a million posts stating that PvP wasnt the reason for the nerfs, it most definately, at least partly, was.

They thought that CoV would be a massive spinner and that PvP between the two sides WOULD be massive.

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I've said in the past, though it met with opposition from some people. PvP needs to be open, in any zone, with a player controlled flag. No challenges to duels like WoW... Just open PvP that anyone can take part in IF they flag themselves, and anyone unflagged can't be attached or attack in return.

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100% agree.

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one thing ppl has to consider, COX was original made for PVE-only, so it's not such a wonder that PVP doesn't work out the way it is now.

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I stated in an earlier post that was not the case.

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Not strictly the case, it was designed with the intent to add PvP in time, but that didn't alter the core game and all the AT's being designed primarily for PvE play. Such is blatantly obvious in the difficulties experienced with balancing the game for PvP.

IF it had been designed with PvP from the start, this issue wouldn't exist.

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It is totally 100% the case. the game was built with Arena and the PvP that goes into the arena, in mind.

The fact that the devs did not have the foresite to develop PvP itself, knowing that they were going to implement it, is one of the many things the game is, as you say, paying for to this very day.

And on the subject of balancing PvP, well that is its own subject but I happen to think they got it, if not right, certainly on the right path, in their very first attempt.

They just didnt follow it through with content designed to really encourage teamed PvP properly. So people never really in any great volume, attempted it. Sort of building a sports car then not having any roads that the car can really run on.

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I think the lessons need to be learned for CoX2. If they are going to do PvP (and, as GG says, it does fit with the comic book hero theme) it needs to be part of the core game - something you will be introduced to naturally through play, not something way off to the side. WAR made a good job of this. CO looks like making the same mistake as CoX: however good or bad the PvP is, they are shunting it off to the side in arenas, condemning it to be a minority activity.

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Agreed. The worst thing about arenas and pvp zones is that the activety itself doesnt get any "publicity." Unless you make the active choice to go to one of these zones there is no way you can get hooked on the "bug,"

That's a key reason most people dont PvP in the first place. They dont fancy the idea so they cant be bothered to go to the zones and make the effort. If it was more "in your face" they may find they enjoy what they see and want to have a go themselves.

And yes, CO do seem to be making the same error.

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one thing ppl has to consider, COX was original made for PVE-only, so it's not such a wonder that PVP doesn't work out the way it is now.

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I stated in an earlier post that was not the case.

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After all, the scarlet witch isnt gonna do all that well in a fight with Thor is she? - Unless she gets that one hex in.

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Which she will succeed in doing 100% of the time if the story requires it

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Yeah but that's the point. this isnt a story. It's live playing so you cant apply your point here.

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But that is my point
In a comicbook story, all heroes and villains can find a way of defeating each other if the story requries it, but in a comicbook game, some ATs/classes will just be stronger than others because they're designed to be that way.

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I reread your post and you are right. I read it wrong. Sorry. I agree with your post, which by the way, was excellent and well thought out.

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Take base raids for example. Why do they have to be limited to bases? Why cant two SGs, of either villian v hero or same side v same side duke it out in a city zone? And i dont mean an instanced one. I mean in the same zone that we play but they, having been allocated, can fight and any other player cant join in?

Why cant the devs invent some incentive for these battles?
They dont even have to invent em. There are hundereds of JLAvJSA or X men v Avengers stories they can swipe to create a compelling reason to fight.
Who knows? Maybe some PvE players would get the PvP bug.

The players would love it. And they'de be great to watch too. I could go on and on.

Just a bit of imagination and forward planning is required to spruce this game up no end.

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I cant believe Im agreeing with you, but you have hit some nails there.

Although the number of non-pvp zones where hero and villain SG could duke it out is severely limited due to certain reasons..

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You mean that heroes cant go to villian zones and vica versa?

I'm in favour of opening up all the zones.
Of actually setting missions in the opposing zones. Where the player who enters the opposing zone cannot attack but can be attacked. (They will then be able to fight.)

The player entering the enemy zone can be granted a small stealth bonus so that if they are clever and careful they MAY avoid being spotted.

I mean, again on the why not theme, why can't heroes enter Grandville at great risk (and therefore great reward?)And vica versa? There's instant PvP straight away and because of the "danger" involved, will be fun.