lionsbane_EU

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The defense Debuff in the statement from castle which you quoted. Obviously it points out the fact that SS tanks which have defence as a form of damage mitigation are currently penalised more by the rage drop than tanks which are resist based. (eg a fire/ss tank would suffer no ill effects from the defence debuff but a ice/ss would, therefore making it unfair on the ice tank)

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Hmmmph. Knew it was too good to be true.

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As for the 15 second drop, well, as long as it's not the only extra penalty for the .999% damage, I can live with it.

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As long as it IS. IS I meant!

My night for quoting myself I guess.

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As much as I complain about the inability to attack or taunt for 10 seconds when Rage drops, I think that the proposed changes would kill it's use for me.
I have to say that if the proposed changes do go through to live, I doubt my tank will see much action ever again because the -recovery seriously sucks.

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Read Maels post, Star. They're reverting most of the change.

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Update

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You'll be happy to know that the Defense Debuff will be going back in and the Recovery Debuff reverted out in an upcoming patch. Also, the Temp power thing is going the way of the Dodo.

I'll take a look at all this again in I12 to try and balance out the Def/Resist inequality.

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He said it. I was just on test and omg.

But def/ res inequality? Does he mean, dare I say it, the overall inequality in in invul? They're not gonna up our def are they? Are they?

Or is he talking about something in rage I missed?

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As possibly the most vitriolic speaker on this side of the pond about this whole thing, I have to say credit where its due.

Maybe he's not as bad as Statesman after all. Kudos for being big enough to recognise a gaff and correct it.

As for the 15 second drop, well, as long as it's not the only extra penalty for the .999% damage, I can live with it.

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Update

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You'll be happy to know that the Defense Debuff will be going back in and the Recovery Debuff reverted out in an upcoming patch. Also, the Temp power thing is going the way of the Dodo.

I'll take a look at all this again in I12 to try and balance out the Def/Resist inequality.

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He said it. I was just on test and omg.

But def/ res inequality? Does he mean, dare I say it, the overall inequality in in invul? They're not gonna up our def are they? Are they?

Or is he talking about something in rage I missed?

wow. A great chart Mael. But you know what?
this isn't as complicated as all that.
I have a 50 Stone melee/ 50 enegy Tanker and a 40 SS.
So i can say with authority that ss with rage is not better than the other two.
Even though it's "buffed."
i mean, I don't need to know exactly what the inner engine of a car is if I can see it's faster than mine. It's faster than mine. ba boom.

And SS inspite of an 80% buff on rage doesn't perform better in damage out put than those two.

Now course i'm thinking if It doesnt out shine those two WITH an 80% buff, then what thinking is required to come to the conclusion that it's on a par with the other sets without it?

This is stuff so straightforward even I understand it.

Damn it I promised I wouldn't harp on about this anymore. That death badger...

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If Rage is pushing the levels of damage past all the other sets in terms of DPS be it in ST or AoE then none of the other sets use build up but they do.

SS is not king of ST.
SS is not king of AoE.

I think comparing one power against the next or simply looking at the bars on Mids Planner won't give anyone a true picture.

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True, however Lionsbane stating that the damage buff from Rage isn't actually a buff is probably the most ridiculous statement ever in the history of these boards.

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Then may I suggest you have to look elsewere for the most ludirous statement. I said and I quote:

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Steel, it's true rage buffs damage.
I know that.
But the reason it has to do that because without rage the set is completely lame compared to trhe other powersets.
As an example of what i mean, raged up, with the 80% buff, the ss tanker damage is way behind energy melee and somewhat behind stone melee.
In a real sense it isnt a buff at all. It's a prop up for a broken set.
Whereas accuracy IS a buff and we hit (unehanced) more often than any other unenhanced set.
So I regard that as a genuine buff.
I do not regard the damage buff to be a real buff even though, in the literal context of this particular set, it is one.

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Get it? Can you understand the difference between me acklowledging that literally it is a real buff and me not regarding it as one because all it does is help ss keep up with damage output of other sets? (the damage buff i mean.)

I know that for some reason you think that even minus rage, Super strength is a strong melee set. So good luck, thanks for the flame and mind the wall.

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SS, with Rage running is behind the stone melee and energy melee attack chain.

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Funny, when I did the maths it seemed to be just slightly below stone without factoring in rage.

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I cant help you there, Max.
But this derailment is my fault.
I've made a meal of this.
I have made my point about what I think of the thinking behind this.
I don't want to derail the overall point.
it isnt important which is which except it demonstrates that the damage in rage does NOT overpower us but gives us a parity in terms of Tanker damage.

This has brought out the worst in me.
Havin made my point of what I think of the devs I'll try to move on and go back to the point.

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Have you actually played other sets or looked at the damage figures anywhere?

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Yes. On the USA boards.
I also have a 50 Stone melee/ 50 en melee and a 40 SS (who is my main right now.)

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KO Blow WITHOUT rage is over 50% more powerful than the hardest hitting mace attack

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SS, with Rage running is behind the stone melee and energy melee attack chain. Without rage I have no idea. But, if it buffs our attacks by 80%,then without it I'm significantly weaker. So rocket science is not required.
I have no desire to play the set without it. Beides, as i said the usa boards are pretty clear about this

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Super Strength is not gimped without Rage and is in fact the best offensive tanker set with rage as it currently stands.

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It's unwise to block the thread with going backward and forward about this except: nope.It's (with Rage) 3rd.

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Please check your figures before you shout DOOM!

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I'm not shouting doom. Not for the game. I am saying that if you like you want players to micro manage their char pretty much every fight they're in (especially in large teams,) if want them to have to remember to make sure they have a box full of blues, or if youre ok for the players toggles to drop very fequently this is a beneficial change.

And Castle is a genius.

In fact he's greater than that because almost no-one in the player base can understand how the 15 second drop balances the set.

Or how he can think that SS is going to be more fun or the same fun as it is now.

Or why he thinks it's acceptable to put a change on test he KNOWS will cause an outcry.

Everything about this is beyond me. So he's either a far greater intelligence than I am (not hard i admit) or he's demonstrated a not fit for duty action.

This is a game for which we must be encouraged to pay every month. there are millions of dollars involved and there are plenty of games out there for fickle players to jump to.

Every single thing the devs do should either be of a mind to, directly or indirectly increase our overall fun factor or,at minimum, leave it at status quo.

What part of this, from the idea, to the communication with the fan base who asked for taunt to be added to rage, to the announcement, to testing, fits the above criteria?

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.. what is basically a 2 minute accuracy buff

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Rage isn't just that, more importantly it also gives an 80% damage buff as well, effectively almost doubling the potential damage output.

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Steel, it's true rage buffs damage.
I know that.
But the reason it has to do that because without rage the set is completely lame compared to trhe other powersets.
As an example of what i mean, raged up, with the 80% buff, the ss tanker damage is way behind energy melee and somewhat behind stone melee.
In a real sense it isnt a buff at all. It's a prop up for a broken set.
Whereas accuracy IS a buff and we hit (unehanced) more often than any other unenhanced set.
So I regard that as a genuine buff.
I do not regard the damage buff to be a real buff even though, in the literal context of this particular set, it is one.

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He's demonstrating to me that he's not up to the job.

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I think that's a little harsh.

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I dont and i'll explain why in a second.

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Even the most amazing performing people make the odd unbelievable hash up now and again, and given that up until now Castles work and his communication with the player base has been exemplary,

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i dont know about that but, yes he has been fairly on the money in a certain way. Till now. But this is a biggun.

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we can't be demanding his resignation House of Commons stylee just on the basis of this one error of judgement on his part.

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Steel, picture this. You and i in the office discussing rage. I suspect this has come about because of willpower but I actually made a thread about rage and taunt just before this hit.
So we're in NC office discussing options.
Never in a thousand years would i suggest or agree to zero recovery because out of the gate it is obvious how crippling it would be and how the fanbase would recieve it.

It is incomprehensible to me how they thought this would work. Now imagine then suggesting increasing the drop by 50% (!!!)

Steel I'de laugh you out of the office. And you would me.

We just would know, without testing, how unpopular it would be and how it would break the set.

How in the name of this world did these peoople not come to that conclusion?

We're forever talking about the fact they dont have time to do this because they're doing that. Well, here's one.

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I agree with Max, given the huge player outcry on this, and that the current test version isn't WAI anyway it's going to have to wait to I12 before anything happens. By then, I'd imagine there'd be sufficient data mining and feedback from people to show Castle that he's wrong, and it'll be modified or rethought.

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We said that during the unstop nerf, the scrapper nerf, the hamidon nerf, the global nerf nerf and Ed. Ed in particular produced an outcry thirty times the size of this one. Still goes on today. They didn't even blink.

And data mining is useless in this context. In fact it's worse because in cases like this it leads you up the wrong path.
It tells you what but not why and its the how and why thats important.

(its not the fact RV is deserted thats key for instance but WHY its so.) nd so on.

I'm sorry to come down so harsh. But I simply whatever way I look, see no commercial acumen at all in this decision.

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It's not like what he's done so far will have any noticeable impact on subs, so there's no problem there.

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Max that's true.

But, he's just announced to COH that firstkly he's capable of doing the same elsewhere ansd secondly that he doesnt understand the synergy between powers and players expectations. And if he doesnt calm down that WILL end up in a reduction of subs.

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and? He put it on test, people said they hate it. Only if they push it on live despite of this will there have been a really big problem.

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Putting it on test then stating it wont be revisited for months, is a statement of intent, Max. there's no other way to read it.

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it sounded like you were saying 20& defence drop + 25% end drop and 0% end recovery thus exaggerating the negative effects of the proposed change.. and i think rage gives a damage buff youve neglected to mention..


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Hardly. I didn't mention it because it isn't a real buff. It brings a limp damage set up to, I think it works out 3rd in the League table of Tank damage dealers.

That doesnt include the genuine buff of build up the other sets have.

It's not my idea of a buff.
As far as im concerned its a crutch i need to keep pace with my friends, when all they need are their legs.

I hope its not yours either.

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Oh and what do you think of the 15 second drop?
What does THAT balance?

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I think its a bit over the top yes.. but i dont get as passionate about the whole subject, at least not while its still on test, subjected to change at any time.

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Castle has stated that it won't be revisited until i12. Even though he knows we wont like it.

So dont hold your breath.

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I just despair that people capable of thinking like this, then launching a test that they know people won't like, are in charge of the dynamic of the "fun" the game produces.

It's bad bad news.

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And I despair over people crying dooom without getting on test to try it out first.
Go on test, try it out.. and if you still dont like it, then your argument will have more weight.
Right now you're just panicking..

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You're not reading or understanding my posts fully.
Firstly I and many other Tankers / brutes are experienced enough to know roughly the effect of this change. All the test will do will bring out just how awkward it is going to be.

And besides, in the USA it is on test. And the testing is coming back generally as I who havent tested but really can see what's in front of me, and many others predicted.

Go to the boards yourself and have a read.

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I just despair that people capable of thinking like this, then launching a test that they know people won't like, are in charge of the dynamic of the "fun" the game produces.

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Actually, I quite like Castle.

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till now so did I.

But his posts on this, not to mention I just cannot concieve why he thought this is a good idea, are almost Statesman esque in their smugness and arrogance. Read em again. They're quite astounding.

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Also, everything is now gearing up for i12. So there's no time to make more major changes to Rage until then. Which is why these proposed changes should NOT go live until the players are at least slightly convinced that it will not completely kill their enjoyment of playing SuperStrength toons.

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You have to remember Castle is a key player in a team responsible for a multi million operation. This is fairly big business. And he has to answer to shareholders who want to see a hike in profits.

He's demonstrating to me that he's not up to the job.
Firstly scheming this nonsense up. Then oputting it forward. Then the way it was announced. .999 damage (yay) zero recovery (wha?) and then ... 15 seconds drop. and then, almost unbelievably, putting it on test knowing we wont like it and knowing he cant or wont revisit for months.

You couldn't make nonsense like this up. Really.

Smart people who want to please their customers just do not do things like this. They just don't.

It's the stuff of total amateurs.

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So 20% defence drop and 25% endurance drop is not "rough."

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the 20% defence drop was removed.

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Well, I know that. I was the one on this thread who announced the test. I was saying that the 20% drop + 25% end drop is plenty rough for a power that basically gives a 2 minute accuracy buff. Don't you think?

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the endurance crash is instead of the defence drop, to balance out the "buff" that the -999% damage really is (compared to how it is at the moment)

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You've lost me completely. You're saying this as though no one knew what the intention was. We've had 120 posts + the usa site (1000+) to clue us in.

We're saying that :
a) a balance of any despcription is NOT required. All we want is to taunt or grab aggro. Having that factor doesn't throw rage out of whack.

b) A "balance" of zero recovery completely alters the dynamic of the set in an unpleasant way, whatever way you want to look at it. The knockon effects, all of which can be unpleasant, make iot a disproportionate and undesirable response.

It is clearly not wanted. It is clearly going to make the set hard work to manage rather than fun. It has a far bigger net impact on playing style than merely a (almost zero ) damage warrants.

Oh and what dio you think of the 15 second drop?
What does THAT balance?

This entire thing is so surreal, badly though out, disrespectful to our wishes and, quite frankly idiotic, that it's almost not worth talking about. Almost.

I just despair that people capable of thinking like this, then launching a test that they know people won't like, are in charge of the dynamic of the "fun" the game produces.

It's bad bad news.

Going on test. Full def -25% end -zero recovery- .999% damage and...... 15 seconds downtime
Oh but he knows its unpopular so they may revisit it after I12.

I apologise for the previous post.

I now realise I actually live in a bizzaro world and in fact its normal to test and put live (where this is going) something that you, the designer, KNOW is going to be unpopular.

This is how I see this. The most basic rule of business is you don't give customers a dish they don't want. You certainly don't force feed them. Because you can lose your cuatomers.

There are instances where, for the overall good of the game, changes are required but this clearly is not one.

There are currently almost a thousand posts on the usa boards about this and nearly 120 here. And this just concerns SS players. We clearly do not want this change.

That the devs are even considering it I find highly disturbing, reminicient of Statesman at his worst.
I, one of the most vocal critics of the devs in the past have warmed to them lately.

But this has the old me creeping out again because it tells me they've learned nothing about how to serve up the food to the customers.

Consider Castles astonishing statement.

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Double Stacked Rage? Not a problem, so long as the cost is commensurate with the benefit.

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As I stated, what benefit? It gives us 5 seconds (ish) of roughly energy melee (minus build up) damage. 5 seconds. So why must we suffer for that when other sets hit as hard and have build up as well?

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The changes are meant to do 2 things:
1) Allow the use of your powers during the crash (via elimination of the "only affects self" bit.)
2) Eliminate 'crash' imbalances -- make the crash as equivalent a cost for all powersets involved.

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Does anyone believe this achieves that goal?

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So, why a Recovery debuff? Recovery effects all Powersets roughly equally. In my test, Running 6 toggles including the End Hog Focused Accuracy, and starting at 50% end at the time of the crash, I did not run out of end on my Inv/SS Tanker.

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He started out at 50% endurance at the time of his crash.
Whoopie for him. Was hasten set to drop? Was he not in a major fight because endurance can run a lot lower than that.

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I came CLOSE and had to cut back on my attacking, but still had plenty of things I could do.

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So, he started at 50% and still came close to a toggle drop. Thats in a test enviroment where he's fully focussed and switched on.

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ANY Tanker/Brute regardless of powerset can offset part of this crash effect by carrying blue inspirations.

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So we are now forced to stack up the blues, almost entirely. After all the crash is every 2 minutes.

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Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance is a good choice, as well, since slotted into stamina or a similar power it has a chance of granting End (not Recovery!) to your character. Then, there are powers that grant the caster endurance not to mention Conserve Power.

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How dare he?

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Yes, the crash is rough. It is supposed to be.

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So 20% defence drop and 25% endurance drop is not "rough."
Why is it meant to be rough?
Damage wise all it does is take a tepid damage power and artificially up it to a parity with SOME other Tanker sets.

Yes, we have an acc buff but the def/ end drop dont penalise us enough for that?

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It is NOT, however, any worse than a 20% or GREATER drop in Defense coupled with a complete inability to effect others.

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This is the killer, telling statement. That he is arrogent enough to tell us that this drop is no worse than the current when we, the players, are saying point blank it bloody well is.

Praf nailed it on the head. It's one thing to micro manage a situational power like Unstoppable, but quite another to have to concentrate every two minutes in case hasten is about to drop at the wrong moment or any number of things thatcan toggle drop you and bring the house down.

I really believed that they had learned from the past and with Statesman gone we had seen the back of the ego driven sort of powers management we had in the past.

Castles statement, alongside the desire to push this change forward proves I was wrong.

And, if they can force feed changes on us like this about rage, they can do it elsewhere to.

On this showing they're as clueless and inept as they ever were. And I am really sorry to say that.

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Chance for endurance is that Recovery Set Proc that has a small chance to return 10 endurace. It's a ridiculous argument, frankly, that you should have to carry a certain type of inspiration or take a certain type of IO in order to compensate for the effects of one of your powers.

And "Chance for recovery" slotted into stamina isn't really a valid workaround anyway, since as a Proc it will only have a 20% chance to recover 10 Endurance once every ten seconds.

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Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it.

Realistically, what level would my Tanker have to be to actually benefit from a set like this? Also, what level would he, under normal circumstances, be able to afford this set?

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Double Stacked Rage? Not a problem, so long as the cost is commensurate with the benefit.

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Benefit? It's nice but isn't that great and lasts, what, 5 seconds?

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The changes are meant to do 2 things:
1) Allow the use of your powers during the crash (via elimination of the "only affects self" bit.)
2) Eliminate 'crash' imbalances -- make the crash as equivalent a cost for all powersets involved.

So, why a Recovery debuff? Recovery effects all Powersets roughly equally. In my test, Running 6 toggles including the End Hog Focused Accuracy, and starting at 50% end at the time of the crash, I did not run out of end on my Inv/SS Tanker. I came CLOSE and had to cut back on my attacking, but still had plenty of things I could do.

ANY Tanker/Brute regardless of powerset can offset part of this crash effect by carrying blue inspirations. Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance is a good choice, as well, since slotted into stamina or a similar power it has a chance of granting End (not Recovery!) to your character. Then, there are powers that grant the caster endurance not to mention Conserve Power.

Yes, the crash is rough. It is supposed to be. It is NOT, however, any worse than a 20% or GREATER drop in Defense coupled with a complete inability to effect others.

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Oh lord. It's Statesman all over again. Does he really believe this? I guess he does.What's chance for enduarance anyhow?

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Taunt's good for AV's as Taunt Aura's won't automatically taunt them all the time.

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there's another question actually. Rage drops, you got zero recovery. Say you're ok and have 25% end left. You use damage and taunt to maintain aggro. Are your attacks as end heavy as normal?

Bearing in mind you wont be recovering end but you'll be using it won't that mean that unless you're pretty tanked up with end when rage does drop, you're almost certain to run out and toggle drop?

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My objection to the zero end recovery is more based on the (lack of) fun factor. why do so many people take Stamina? You can get by without it, but most people would rather consentrate on the action rather than endurance micromanagement.

Endurance micromanagement is not FUN.

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I agree wholeheartedly.

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As do I and quite frankly as should everyone with any sense.

So why don't the devs?

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No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.

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Thats assuming losing aggro during drop was fair in the first place.

Besides, Shannon, Ide argue that taunting during rage drop with 20% def and 25% end down could be considered highly dangerous in certain cases. So theres extra risk there without all this end nonsense.

If, for example they put a slow effect on us for 10 seconds I could probably live with that cause it make thematic sense.

But that's as far as I would want to go cause I dont think the lack of aggro should be part of rage drop in the first place.

Let me put this another way.

Does anyone believe that if the devs give us .999% damage rather than "affect only self" (assume we keep the 25% end drop and the defense drop) and DIDNT make any further changes, endurance or other wise, that rage would somehow become overpowered or unbalanced?

And if so how?

And if not, what the heck are they playing at?

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Fistly, I want to remind people that this change is for testing. Getting angry, whining etc serve no purpose here: save it for the live version, if appropiate.

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Considering how unpopular this proposed change would be that's a bit after the horse has bolted isn't it?

This change should never have got past the late night, bit drunk brainstorming session.

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Reasoned aguments, evidence from testing, and alternatives are what are needed here.

So, I've made up a little list of alternative options:

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Some of your suggestions are worthwhile in one sense. If you accept that the set needs a penalty on top of what it already has.

There's no need to re quote your suggestions here because my counter point is simple.

There is no balancing reason to do anything other than allow taunt during rage drop.

Rage drop is fine as is but the inability to taunt was overkill. Give us that one thing back and leave the set alone.
End of.

What is the matter with these people that they have to keep doing things like this?

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I thought the SS buff was that KO Blow changed from a clobber like power to a high damage power.

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Yeep. Can someone help us out here? I said my memory was cloudy about this.
Did I get the two confused?
Now you say it it does ring a bell.

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Firstly Tanker outcry at low damage output prompted the devs to give Tankers a blanket 10% damage increase in the first place and further down the line, added rage to SS because without it, SS underperforms.

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Do you want to check your facts?

I've been playing a /ss tanker since just after I1. My launch pack instruction booklet lists rage as a super strength power, which indicates that it's been in the set an awful long time (as books take a few months to be proof read and printed generally).

You're right about tankers complaining about lack of damage, but rage wasn't introduced because of this.

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Ok I'll pause here. I only ever actually concentrate on news pertaining to MY set or general health of the game info.
Back when the game started I played an SS but found it to be anti climatic. Was set to drop the game (before I1) when my friend joined and I restarted with a Stone Melee. So my memory here may be cloudy but....

Firstly I wasn't clear and that's my fault.I did imply that rage was created after the event but that was bad writing on my part. Sorry.

I was referring to the fact that from memory I believe they buffed rage significantly following an outcry from SS Tankers.

the point remains though. Rage is there to stack up an otherwise tepid power set. And they did it because SSers felt the damage they could distribute was too low.