Ultimo_

I've already conceded repeatedly that my example was flawed, and that I can't remember the exact circumstances that led to it. I assume it was the Freaks, but I could be wrong. That is why they "may" have a point.

One cannot lie without realizing it. A lie is a deliberate act. An inadvertant omission would be an ERROR, not a lie. I inflated nothing. What I described happened. The reasons why are evidently unclear, but it did happen. I did not inflate anything. However, because of the inconsistency in this situation, it is a fatally flawed example.
Of course, I've already said this.

The notion of "the right powers" is laughable. If some powers are somehow "wrong" then there's a problem with the design. Not that I've never claimed this. All I have said is that there are problems with the endurance system. It is inconsistent and is not fair to all ATs and power sets.

For your amusement (and suggestions, as I am always open to ideas), I post my Defender. This is the planned build to L50. By that point he'll actually have some serious defenses (71% resistance to smashing and Lethal, and over 30% defense to most everything). It's the journey to that point that remains to be seen. Note that the slotting is not placed by level.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Warpath: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(7)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(13), Flight-I(15)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(15), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(46)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(23), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(31), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 26: Power Burst -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(34), Acc-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(50)
Level 28: Repulsion Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Repulsion Bomb -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42)
Level 38: Nova -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(42), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46)
Level 47: Total Focus -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance


I've been considering some swapping of powers around in the 20s, to take the Medicine pool in place of Leadership, or some such. I'd also been thinking about swapping the Repulsion Field for Force Bubble since I'm not sure what the difference is.

One other thing I should mention. This is something of a concept build. It's my latest attempt to make a character based on Iron Man. That said, it still has to be functional. In all honesty, with the exception of the endurance issues, it's been pretty close to what I've been after.

(actually, if you look at the old Tales of Suspense and Avengers comics, Iron Man was always retreating to recharge... Kind of ironic, eh?)

Ok, so I'm "not built for soloing," and I'm "not built for teaming," just what AM I built for? Saying "nothing" will only lead me to point out the failings in THAT concept.

I've already admitted that my slotting might not be optimal, and that I've been reslotting as suggested. However, even at that, I should not be required to build my character in a particular way to be successful.

I'm not the only person having problems with endurance. This is an issue that comes up over and over, and has done for many years now. Again, my play style may not be optimal, but I should not be required to play one particular way.

Fun is subjective, you're correct. Are you telling me you find it fun to stand around for several minutes at a time doing nothing? Many people do not, I'm just one of them. That there have been so many threads on this subject is evidence of that. I've also said that Endurance management should be a challenge. It simply should not be THE challenge. I want to fight the bad guys, not my own powers!

I provided another example, a test in which I ran a Defender and a Scrapper (not Claws) through the same chain of missions. I reported that both performed to about the same level, and that both suffered severe endurance issues. I provided the arc so others could attempt the same test. I did this because I recognized the unreliablity of the former examples. If I were trying to decieve, I would not have done this. You fixate on one admittedly poor example, and ignore everything else.

Being in error is not lying. Lying involves deliberate deception. I have not attempted to deceive, although my example of the Tanker and KO Blow was obviously incomplete and insufficient.

Again, I'll have to postpone the Tanker test, it's my cousin's 50th B-Day, so I have places to be!

A defender that has no powers that helps his team is built for teaming? If he's not, then what IS he built for?

Yes, I've played for years. I level slowly, and I've played mainly Tankers and Blasters. I've never played any character with Defense to any appreciable level. I know that they have a 5% chance to hit and miss, but I have no idea how Defense works, because I've never needed to.

As I said, I've tried "just attacking" my foes, and my Defender is quickly overwhelmed by the incoming damage. I'm forced to mitigate it somehow. Force Bolt has been the best choice so far.

There should be no single way to play any character or power set. You seem to suggest that unless I do it this one way, I'm guaranteed to fail. That in itself suggests a problem.

None of this addresses the core concern, which is that characters are running out of endurance far too quickly, and standing around waiting for Rest to recharge, or endurance to come back. Standing around is not fun. The point of playing, and the supposed mantra of the devs is to have fun. Thus, I see a disconnect.

Again, I'm suggesting an improvement in endurance usage for EVERYONE. This isn't (or wasn't) intended to be about Defenders or Tankers specifically, they just happen to suffer more than some others.


I'm frankly not going to address the suggestion that I would lie about my experiences in the game. Think what you will, I really don't care anymore.

I rebuilt and reslotted to test the characters against an arc I built. It's #189400 "Techwar" if you want to test against it yourselves.

I haven't had a chance to test the Tanker yet. The Scrapper is a L14 Martial Arts/Shield. The Defender is a L13 Force Field/Energy.

Note that the Scrapper in each case is running only the melee toggle, since he's meleeing everyone. It has one endredx in it.

In an early mission, they both encoutnered a group of three trolls, white conn minions. The Defender defeated all three, was at about half health and used about 90% of his endurance to do it. The Scrapper had appalling accuracy, and went through all his endurance, detoggled and was whittled down to about 2/3 health before defeating the final minion.

In a second encounter, they met a boss called Grond and two troll gunners (Yellow, and two whites). Note that Grond had nearly the same health as the Defender, and did about a quarter of his health with every thrown boulder. Melee was out of the question, as the Trolls would have easily crushed the Defender. Using tactics suggested here, I was at about 10% health and had to use PFF and escape, by the time I got the two gunners to half health. I retreated, recovered and tried again using my former tactics (Force Bolt Grond, and pick off the minions). Doing this, I was left with no endurance, and about 1/3 health in defeating the three. Note that they were slightly damaged in this second attempt. The Scrapper fought exactly the same group and was forced to use a green inspiration to survive. He ran out of endurance and detoggled, but did defeat all three foes. I used similar tactics, Cobra Strike Grond, and defeat the minions.

My assessment is that both performed in a comparable fashion. That is, they both had severe endurance issues. It was still no fun waiting around to get endurance back so I could keep playing.

I'll assess the Tanker tomorrow, but having played several Tankers I don't expect it to be any better.

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You may have a point regarding the Tanker and KO Blow. It was a while ago, and I hadn't considered who he had been fighting. The more I think on it, the more I think it was Freakshow, so sapping was probably an issue. It's not, however, a lie. It did happen.

Mooks are L5-20, so they spawned at L12 for my L12 Defender.
I don't ususally play Defense oriented sets, so I wasn't aware that there was no need to slot PFF. I was doing so because I was frequently getting killed right through it. If there's no benefit to slotting it, obviously, I won't do it.

I made several characters together, intended to be a group together (boy I wish there was a way to invite and promote your own characters to your own Supergroup). A Tanker, a Scrapper, a Defender and another Scrapper (he's the one with Claws, so we won't consider him since he's considered an unfair comparison). I'll run all three through a test mission and report back.

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Once again. "You *may* have a point". You just can't accept the fact that you're mistaken, can you? You use examples that aren't possible outside of certain specific situations, then you remove the situation, and use the example to try to prove a point that it doesn't prove. This is why no one can take your claims seriously -- you insist on supporting your arguments with lies of omission, or just outright lying period.

You only "ran out of end" because of infrequent sapping from Juicer/Stunner mobs against Freaks? Why am I still skeptical of this? Oh, probably because you would have taken them out fast enough (they're only LT class at best) if you did more than just use KO Blow every 18 seconds. Not to mention that not every spawn has one in it, and you're twisting your data again because you just can't be wrong. You frequently choose tactics that are SELF-DEFEATING. This is not a problem with the game. Rather, it's a problem with your ability.

On the note of your Defender: you had three targets to hit with ET? You realize that three targets is the "magic number" for most AoEs for them to come out ahead when compared to a single target? ET does more damage for less endurance to three targets than Power Bolt will, so again, you chose the wrong tactic. Knocking all of them back instead of just one would have also helped, but then, you'd have to move your character instead of leaving it stuck in a single place to get them all in ET range, and I don't see you wanting to do that.

Not realizing that PFF soft-caps yourself is just ignorance on your part. You can pull up the power info at any point in the game now. I also love how you claimed that you feel you built your character to "solo" and then tell us how you slotted your character defensively, and in a manner that does nothing to help you solo. You don't need faster Hover to solo with, slotting PFF for PvE is laughable, and about the only thing you did "right" was make sure your attacks could land. In short, you wasted slots in places that don't help you solo at all, but claimed it was slotted for solo-ing purposes.

Please, Ultimo. For the sake of your arguments, learn how to play the game you're trying to change.

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I don't know why the case of colic. I mean really. I said the events I described DID happen. I am not lying, and I resent the implication. I admitted that I had neglected to consider the foes I was fighting. Freakshow have sappers, and as I recall, those were the foes I was fighting. Again, it was a while ago, so I could be wrong.

Either way, the fact remains that I was burning through all my endurance using just one attack and my defensive toggles. As noted, this isn't something that happens under usual circumstances, so the circumstances must have been unusual. I say they "may" have a point, because of those unusual conditions. I think it was the Freakshow. I could be wrong.

I was specifically avoiding using the Torrent because of the greater endurance use. At the suggestion of others in the thread, I tried using it more, to mixed results. I found it tended to miss a lot more, but that's after only a short test period. I also found I was out of endurance a lot more, but that might be due to the extra misses. A also found they tended not to get knocked back. Once in a while. Force Bolt is far more reliable.

I also said I haven't played Defense sets extensively. How I would be expected to know about a "soft cap" I'd never been required to consider before is beyond me.

I built him to solo. Not having much offense, I built around the only defense I have, knockback. I do tend toward a more defensive style. That may be why I dislike Blasters so much.

You may have a point regarding the Tanker and KO Blow. It was a while ago, and I hadn't considered who he had been fighting. The more I think on it, the more I think it was Freakshow, so sapping was probably an issue. It's not, however, a lie. It did happen.

Mooks are L5-20, so they spawned at L12 for my L12 Defender.
I don't ususally play Defense oriented sets, so I wasn't aware that there was no need to slot PFF. I was doing so because I was frequently getting killed right through it. If there's no benefit to slotting it, obviously, I won't do it.

I made several characters together, intended to be a group together (boy I wish there was a way to invite and promote your own characters to your own Supergroup). A Tanker, a Scrapper, a Defender and another Scrapper (he's the one with Claws, so we won't consider him since he's considered an unfair comparison). I'll run all three through a test mission and report back.

I put significant slots into my "defenses," that is, PFF is triple slotted, Hover is triple slotted (for manueverablity).

I'll rebuild as suggested and see if it makes a difference, but I'm not optimistic.

Tomorrow, though. My eyes feel like pebbles, darn allergies...

Considering I didn't take anything that helps my team (well, Dispersion Bubble, which I only use on teams because the end cost is currently prohibitive, and the defense provided is negigible), I don't consider this a character designed for teaming.

That aside, I could have taken Detention Field (though not as early as Force Bolt), but teams hate it and its recharge is terribly long, making it of limited use. One Range enhancement, and most mobs, even ranged ones, have a difficult time reaching me past the Force Bolt.

You say "Hover. And blast. Detention field one enemy, kill the second, get to work on the third." Detention Field will have worn off by the time I defeat one foe, during which time the second would be shooting at me, forcing a retreat, just as if I'd used Force Bolt. There's no real benefit or difference.


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You can close your beedy little eyes and stop flapping your head. The game already has a decent balance of endurance usage for comparable powers but you refuse to see it.

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My "beedy little eyes" ( I think you meant beady - if you're going to insult me, at least spell it correctly)?You couldn't have said that without being rude? I mean, seriously.

OBVIOUSLY, the point is that I don't think there IS a decent balance. Simply saying there is doesn't make it so. That's why I've provided examples.

I have not slotted at all for End Redx. There are only two slots in each attack, they're both accuracy. That could be an issue, but Training Enhancements make very little difference either way. As I said, I've played for quite a while. I know how to play, and I know enough not to use a heavy attack to finish a foe with 1 hit point, nevermind that I don't HAVE a heavy attack (aside from the AOE Torrent, which I already SAID I don't use often).

All of that is beside the point.


The point is that we are constantly running out of endurance. Even after Stamina, it's a serious problem for many Tankers and Defenders (as well as some other classes and sets). The fact that there have been innumerable threads about this is evidence that I'm not alone in this perception.

The simple fact is that it is not fun constantly running out of endurance to do even the most basic of things. My L41 Tanker, running only the Invulnerability toggles, runs out of endurance spamming only KO Blow. That's ONE attack, and he has triple slotted Stamina. this Defender runs out of endurance using one very minimal toggle (the result would be the same if I turned it off), and spammed two 1st tier attacks, and ran out of endurance defeating ONE minion. Both of these characters have then no choice but to retreat and rest or stand there and soak it up. The Tanker can, and by virtue of PFF, so can the Defender. The problem is that they HAVE to.

Other charcters don't face the same problem. Claws showed me just how much more fun it is when you're not stopping to rest every couple of minutes. ALL characters should be that much fun. That's all I'm trying to achieve. Fun for all.

Against three yellow minions, at range (I was using Hover, which keeps me out of melee range, and provides a little defense), I would not last long in a straight fight. As I say, using hover, I moved around to find cover, forcing the foes to chase me around. However, with low ceilings and smallish rooms, to say nothing of other nearby spawns, my freedom to move around was somewhat restricted. Nevertheless, I'm not a fool, and I've played the game for a while, so I know how to use my surroundings to my advantage. Of course, I won't mention that the Scrapper never needs to...

The character has Force Bolt, Power Bolts and Energy Torrent. He also has Air Superiority (taken in case something DOES get to melee range, plus it's just too darn useful) and Sands of Mu (Vet power). The melee powers don't often get used. Sands has dismal accuracy, and so is used only when not critical. Air Superiority does the same damage as Power Bolts, but puts me in greater jeopardy due to higher melee damage. Thus, I try not to need to use it.

The AI wouldn't have been confused by me moving around, they were shooting at me. Force Bolt isn't an attack. It's purpose isn't to do damage. It's a defense. In that sense, it's no different that using a toggle defense. It's just one I have to click periodically.

Using Energy Torrent was pointless, it does the same damage as Power Bolts and uses more endurance. Granted, I could have hit two targets with it (if they were close enough together), but neither would have been defeated before the endurance was used up. I mean, it was used up using Power Bolts.

I would have more health than one minion, but not more than three. Good lord, Forstfire's Jack Frost PET has almost as much health as my Defender. These guys were doing 23 damage per attack. With three of them, that's 69 damage per "round." Four attacks, and I'm dead. The only defense I have is the vain hope that Hover will make them miss, or to use Force Bolt to keep one of them busy. It's the only defense available at that level.


In any case, it's just an example for the sake of illustration. Using two powers, an offense (and the weakest one at that) and a defense, left the Defender drained of all endurance in order to defeat one minion. The Scrapper used barely a tenth of that. Even my MA/Shield Scrapper with two toggles running only used about an eighth of his endurance to defeat similar foes.

I stand by my position. It should take just as much endurance for a Defender to defeat a foe as for a Scrapper to do so. That means either more damage, to match the endurance being used, or less endurance to match the damage output. I'm speaking of the average character here. Obviously, not every character will be identical, but the difference should be minimal if a standard rate is established.

To reiterate:

All characters in the game are expected to overcome the same challenges, to reach the same ends. The endurance used to achieve the same ends should be comparable, regardless of AT or power set. That's balanced. Standing around unable to act is not fun, whether it be because of stuns or holds, or because of excessive endurance costs.

My build is L12. There's not much I can do with it at that point. The Scrapper is ALSO L12.

It's the typical argument. I describe a situation and am attacked as being a bad player. That's not an argument, that's simply dismissive and says nothing.

The Minions were doing around 20 damage each. If I entered melee range, that jumped to 40 each. With 235 health (or so), facing three such minions, I would not have lasted very long had I not sought to take one out of the fight. Not having damage output, I had to find a defense. I used the Force Bolt juggle. It may not have been the most endurance efficient, but it's the only defense I had. Power Bolt is the only attack I have, other than melee powers (Air Superiority, Sands of Mu).

The point was that using two powers, and only two powers, completely drained my character's endurance in the time it took to defeat one foe, and a minion at that. Had I been playing a Blaster, Scrapper, Controller, or even a Tanker, I wouldn't have had that problem. The Tanker would have been borderline.

I never said the character should solo as fast as a Scrapper. I said the endurance used to achieve the same ends should be comparable. I can't imagine why that notion generates such resistance.

Well, I've had another experience tonight that may illustrate why I have a problem with this.

I made a mission on the MA (it's the first of what will be an arc). This mission pits the character against Mooks. They're a group that falls below L20. The mission objective is to defeat a boss. All aspects of the mission are set to minimum difficulty. The character is playing on Heroic.

It took my Defender (FF/EB) 3 and a half hours to do this mission. It took my Scrapper (Claws/Regen) 15 minutes.

The reason? The typical spawn was three minions (all yellow - for some reason the MA insists on never using white conn foes). The Defender would go in, constantly blast one with Force Bolt to keep him from attacking, then power bolt one of the others while soaking up the attacks of the third. The only toggle running was Hover. I could have run Dispersion Field, but I would run out of endurance in 3 or four attacks.

Using this strategy, I was out of endurance and health by the time I defeated that one foe.

I would then retreat and Rest. Once back to full health and endurance, I would reengage with the same strategy. Defeating one foe used all my endurance, after which I would turn on PFF and wait to get enough back to fight some more (since rest was still recycling).

Typically, I would have time to go do something else for several minutes. I would have much rather been playing the game, but I don't find sitting doing nothing much fun. The Devs seem to disagree. We're SUPPOSED to have to stop and do nothing for several minutes at a time. If their mantra is to say "is it FUN," then I can only conclude they think standing doing nothing is fun.

My Scrapper, on the other hand, blitzed through the whole mission in the time it took the Defender to deal with one spawn. The reasons were that the Scrapper never had to stop. He did stop once because he'd taken enough damage to warrant a Rest. The Defender was stopping every half a spawn.

The reason is that the Defender was faced with defeating the same foes as the Scrapper. That means he has to do the same amount of damage to complete the mission as the Scrapper. The trouble is that, because he does so little damage for the same endurance cost, he lacks the ability to DO that much damage before he's out of endurance. If his attacks used porportionately less endurance, this would not be the case.

Now, I'll concede that Claws may not be the best set to compare to, if its thing is reduced endurance, but it points out the disparity. Claws is more fun because you don't have to stop playing repeatedly. We should be able to say much the same for any set. Put another way, it's not fun to have to stop all the time, and there shouldn't be any set that's not fun.

I'll also point out that this is only one example of this; I've experienced the same thing on many other characters. However, it seems to be my Tankers and Defenders that suffer from this more than anyone else. Oddly, my Controller has almost no endurance trouble, though he takes FOREVER to complete missions.

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What I'm after isn't necessarily a buff, it's a more level playing field. That might even mean a NERF, though I honestly think that would only compound the problems with endurance.

The problem I see is that endurance is not an issue for some characters and is positively gamebreaking for others. I was just hoping to find a way to alleviate the problem in a balanced fashion.

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If this were the case, you wouldn't be comparing scrappers and tanks. Or brutes and tanks.

You'd be comparing powersets with endurance management tools and those without.

An invul/stone tank is going to run dry far more often than a willpower/dark tank, won't he?

Chasing after this concept of "damage should equate to end expenditure" won't get you anywhere. Not in this game.

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What I mean is that if endurance use was relative to power effect (damage was the easiest to discuss), then there would be balance. That would mean that people would use endurance relative to the amount of damage an attack caused. The endurance used by toggles would be relative to the amount of defense it provides.

I don't see how this could unbalance anything. It's not going to add power to anyone, it's just going to ensure that no one pays more for less.

That said, I don't expect a change. The whole discussion is likely just for the sake of discussion alone. On the other hand, you never know. The Devs read these pages, maybe they'll see an idea or an analysis here that they didn't think of, or that sparks an idea that will be good for the game.

Sharing ideas, good and bad, is never a bad thing.

What I'm after isn't necessarily a buff, it's a more level playing field. That might even mean a NERF, though I honestly think that would only compound the problems with endurance.

The problem I see is that endurance is not an issue for some characters and is positively gamebreaking for others. I was just hoping to find a way to alleviate the problem in a balanced fashion.

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This is a discussion forum. If all you have to contribute is "shut up" in not so many words, then you're not contributing anything.

We'd be delighted to hear your actual thoughts on the subject of discussion. If you have none, don't waste everyone's time telling us to shut up. We're enjoying the discussion. If you're not, don't read it. No one if forcing you to.

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Isn't this quote just a bit hypocritical?

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Only slightly. "Shut up if all you going to say is Shut Up" may sound hypocritical but is rather valid. It's like "never say never."

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I'm just trying to keep the thread from devolving into unproductive attacks and demands that we stop discussing the topic. I would simply like everyone to contribute productively, as most have. Telling us to stop discussing it isn't productive.

By all means, disagree with the ideas, but tell us why you disagree (or agree). Make suggestions of your own. Present ideas. That would be productive, and very much welcome.

As I said, I'm delighted to hear what people think.


(btw, calling people names does nothing to make your position stronger, so do try to restrain the namecalling. I'm not "greedy" or "stupid" for example.)

This is a discussion forum. If all you have to contribute is "shut up" in not so many words, then you're not contributing anything.

We'd be delighted to hear your actual thoughts on the subject of discussion. If you have none, don't waste everyone's time telling us to shut up. We're enjoying the discussion. If you're not, don't read it. No one if forcing you to.

The need to slow down, however, is a disadvantage not shared by the scrapper. That's a sign of imbalance. This is also why I don't like the argument that Defenders have an advantage in buffing others, and that they pay for that by not having much offense or personal defense. Being able to buff others is not an advantage when solo. Thus, a solo Defennder is more disadvantaged than other classes, and that isn't fair.

The same applies to Tankers relative to Scrappers in this case.

I think what's being suggested is that once Endurance is gone, the Tanker can last longer and therefore has more ability to recover endurance and continue fighting. Am I getting this correctly?

After spending the afternoon on my Defender, I'm curious to know how they measure up to Stars' calculator...

It's that number of possibilities that standardization is meant to accomodate.

What I'm looking to achieve is a better degree of balance between the sets and ATs. There's been some good analysis here. It's not really what I started the thread about, but kudos to all. It's interesting to say the least.

Not that it matters, but who is Fulmens ignoring? Me or FireWyvern?

Anyhow, back to the topic. Area effects attacks would use more endurance, but the amount would be standardized. To use Champions as an example, Area Effect (Radius) was a +1 modifier, which doubled the base cost (in points and endurance cost) of a power. Using that as a model, if Power Bolts did 50 damage, and used 5% endurance, then an AOE power that had the same attributes as Power Bolts (in terms of range and so on), and did 50 damage in an area, would use 10% endurance.

I'm not saying these numbers are what should be used, it's just an example.

... What calculations? As for the rest, I'll think and say what I please. No one is making you read it.

Actually, if Scrappers get less benefit from defenses, I would agree that they should use less endurance from the shields. For example, Temporary Invulnerability is available to both Tankers and Scrappers. If it's going to cost the same endurance for both, they should both get the same benefit. Since that's evidently not how they want it to work, and scrapper invulnerability is less effective, they should pay less endurance.

An interesting post, Neo, and definitely something to consider in the long run...

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Having soloed a Dark Armor/Energy tank through the first 20-some levels, I can confidently say that you're overstating the case, Ultimo. Just say "I'm greedy" and put it in your sig.

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We're having a discussion here, and personal attacks are neither warranted nor welcome. So far everyone has contributed to the subject in a reasoned, civil fashion and I suggest you do the same.


(edited for typo)

Endurance woes are meant to limit the ability of the Tanker to last as long in fights? Is that what I'm seeing? If that's so, increase the damage to nominal, because they're suffering a penalty to damage (to make them less offensive) AND a penalty to endurance efficiency (to make them even LESS offensive, AND less defensive, since they will lose their toggles if they run out of endurance).

As to the question WHY?

The mantra the devs say they go by is "Is it FUN?" I don't find standing in a group pressing taunt every now and then because I don't have the endurance to do anything else, FUN. I don't find having to get a group to do ANYTHING, FUN. What's fun is being able to compete, whatever AT and power set I'm using. The game already has too many ways to force the players to stand around watching helplessly as their characters get killed (stuns, holds, slows, -recharge, etc.). Having no endurance is among them, and is very frustrating indeed.

Endurance is an issue for everyone, but it should be EQUALLY an issue. As it is, Tankers and Defenders (and Scrappers, to some extent) get the short end of the endurance stick.

Tried something last night, thought I'd report it. I took the advice here, and upped my difficulty, to see what would happen. I put it on the highest setting, and got myself a radio mission. What I got in the mission was suprising.

All the spawns were what I considered normal for heroic. White minions, yellow LTs. I was kind of taken aback. I was even more suprised to find I was getting NO xp for them.

I filed it as a bug, something is defnitely up.

I love to write. I used to make my own comics, once upon a time, and the MA gave me a chance to let that out. It's rather limited, but when I was able to work within the limits, I had some decent stories to tell.

Now, I don't use it. The whole reason is that I can't make missions that are accessible to every class and every level. Even when I try to make minions of low capability, they are capable of doing so much damage that the missions have become unplayable.

For example, I created a mission that included an elite boss. This boss was a tough cookie, with claws and dark armour, both on extreme. I also included patrols of allied minions. These minions were on standard with Assault Rifle and Regeneration. A pair of these minions came upon the elite boss and defeated him in about three seconds. Boy was I astonished.

Consider that the enemy minions were built the exact same way, and that my Defender was trying to take on groups of two and three of them. It made the missions unplayable.


It is unfortunate that they have done this to the MA, it's a system with so much potential. The cure for farming has indeed done far more damage than the farming itself ever did.

An interesting analysis, Starsman, I have to agree. It would be a significant task to make this whole thing work.

As for Defenders and Tankers, how do you like these ideas (I think I've posted them elsewhere before):

Gauntlet would generate an endurance discount for each foe affected by the punchvoke effect. Thus, he'd have a larger benefit in larger groups.

Vigilance currently generates a discount based on the state of the Defender's team. I wonder if allowing it to work based on the Defender's (as a team of one) own state. That is, as he gets in hotter water, he gets a bigger discount.

Obviously I've not got any numbers, these are just concepts. What do you think?