UberRod

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Put me down as in agreement that this Proliferation is a big "miss" for Tankers and Stalkers. Sure, I can understand that Conserve Power is a duplicate for Electric Armor, just as Caltrops is a duplicate for Ninjitsu. But Electric is a highly requested set on the hero side, and even though it may still come out later, I feel the time would have been better spent on replacing a single power and coming up with another Tanker Primary later.

As for Stalkers, the Ice/Ice combination, again, has been requested many times on the villain side. Stalkers are a second best solution, since Brute players would prefer it, but to have Ice Armor at all on the villain side would be a plus. All giving Electric to Stalkers does is further imbalance the distribution.

Mind you, I love Electric Assault. (although the writer of the article obviously misplaced the correct name) But this Power Set Proliferation seems to be a little Electric-centric, and not necessarily where it should be.

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I would say you need to be patient. The Devs didn't have the time or resources to do more that simple ports (with the exception of Mind Manip). I'm sure electric/electric will make it next time, because as you say, they just need to adjust one power.

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um wth does that have to do with anything we're talking about here?

EAs effectiveness (or lack thereof) has absolutely 0 to do with it not having an aggro aura.

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Chill out man or you might blow a gasket. Were you that offended by my comment that you had to post something in reply to it that does nothing but escalate the already tense mood of this thread? I was simply stating that all the secondary sets that brutes "use" have taunt aurus. Energy auru is the one set that doesnt have a taunt aura and coincidentally enough, and I do truly mean "coincidentally", it is also the least used brute secondary. I was simply making a funny. Is that allowed, or have things become too serious around here to even attempt to lighten up the mood? Some People need to untighten there screws a little bit. Sheesh!

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It just seemed to me that having a taunt aura would help a brute keep aggro and thus build fury faster. If EA doesn't have a taunt aura and it is the least used brute secondary, that might not be coincidence.

So how would /regen be too powerful on brutes as a straight port with no taunt aura, when the only other brute secondary without a taunt aura is seen as crap? Personally, I would want a taunt aura.

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ZOMG I didnt team with MMs before due to the lack of players who could/would be willing to control their pets. Now that they have one of the most chaotic sets in the game I will team with them even less, which was just north of never anyways. An Emp MM on the other hand, I would have bitten the proverbial bullet and teamed with. I have to say bravo to the devs for making one of the least-liked-for-teams ATs into even more of an annoyance. Just goes to show how much of the subscribers opinons they actually listen to.

...and why do they keep such a distance from the concept of a regen brute? Does the idea of having a brute that can generate fury and hold it becuase of no lack of endurance from Quick recovery at level 6 seem like that scary of a thought? "No, we dont want brutes to be able to utilize their inherent until atleast half way through the game." So what if everyone and their grandma made a regen brute and all other secondaries were ignored from now on. Isnt that what has happened to scrappers on blue side anyways?

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PEBKAC

Stop blaming the devs for the actions of unskilled players.

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I thought that Stalkers were the least-liked for teams ATs.

And regen gets QR at level 4. I think regen Brutes would be awesome.

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QR at Level 4 0.o ...mebe it would be too powerful then >.>...j/k... Its a travesty that Brutes dont have regen yet. SR just doesnt seem like a very brutish powerset to me.

...and I'd take a stalker over a MM anyday. Atleast most stalks know when to be seen and when not to be seen ;-)

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I think that regen for brutes would be fine and they could just do a straight port with no problems. But perhaps like /kin for MM, they thought it might be a bit over powered and decided to think about it some more.

The only problem I see is that regen has no taunt aura at all. I'm not sure if brutes need a taunt aura, but I think they would. This would be a bit more work and that alone would require it to be pushed back as they were only doing easy ports this time. I imagine they would have to add a taunt aura part to Integration to make regen work for brutes. Or use Rise to the Challenge. Regen for brutes would need to be tweaked a bit.

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I'm a little disappointed. I thought the idea behind powerset proliferation was not only to expand each AT's powerset selection, but to give access to powersets the other side didn't have.

Blasters are getting a defender blast, but also an entirely new set
Brutes getting two primaries from tankers
Controllers getting a dominator set and a corruptor set
Corruptors getting defender sets
Defenders getting corruptor sets
Dominators getting a controller set and blaster set
Masterminds getting a defender set


But scrappers are getting tanker sets?
Tankers are getting scrapper sets?
Stalkers are getting brute sets?


What the hell?


There is no electric/electric representation on the heroside, so why not port that over to either tankers or scrappers? There's no ice melee and ice armor reprentation villainside, so why not port that over to stalkers?

I mean, if I want a fire/fire melee hero, I could just build a tanker. And if I want an elec/elec melee villain, I could just make a brute.


I'd really love to know what the reasoning behind the choices for these 3 ATs were.

And no, this isn't just whining for the sake of whining. I'm not entirely thrilled with some of the choices they made for the other ATs, but at least with those they're really spreading the love around. Ice controllers get no love while fire controllers do. MMs get only one secondary while brutes get two primaries and a secondary... I get that there are no other pet powerset ATs to share over to MMs, but at least they could have gotten two secondaries to compensate. Still, at least the one set they got they got came from the hero side and wasn't just another villain set.



[/ QUOTE ]I gotta agree with this sentiment they could have thrown in /kin for MMs and that would have easily made up for the fact that they're aren't any pet sets they could port to MMs. Also electric blast for Cors? Meh it isn't a bad choice but I was hoping beyond hope that Archery would make the cut

Ninja/Kin
Ninja/Storm
Archery/Kin

would have been some badaz combinations aw well there is still VEATs to keep me interested in I12

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To clarify the person you quoted, scrappers are getting brute sets, not necessarily tanker sets.

But can you imagine the carnage from a MM with all pets out and hitting fulcrum shift? Plus all your pets speed boosted? The devs have said that they are not ready for MM to get /kin just yet.

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I agree that the devs do not care about PvP. If they did the power sets would not be going more to the Hero side, or that is the general opinion i am seeing. The PvP zones are rarely crowded unless they are shivan hunting.

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It's not a matter of the devs hating villains or pvp with their choice for current round of power proliferation, it's a matter of what sets could be ported over easily. That's why tanks got dark/dark instead of electric, because they would have to fool with the set and take out Conserve Power. Dark/dark was a straight port.

I'll grant that mental manipulation might have needed a little tweaking, but still...

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mmm k, let's see here...

for the redside:

corruptors - get the weakest, clunkiest blaster primary (lol attack chain)

brutes - get 2 smash/lethal sets (lol s/l damage after level 40), and yet another secondary that has no self-heal, is toggle-end-hog-horrid pre-stamina, and lacks acceptable aoe protection until lvl 35

stalkers - get the weakest brute primary, and the second-weakest brute secondary (lol energy aura was already available to stalkers)

doms - get a mix of the weakest blaster primary with the weakest brute primary, and a controller primary that is location-based (lol pvp)

mms - get a secondary that specializes in causing enormous chaos on mission maps (lol teaming with mms)



and for the blueside:

blasters - get psi and more psi (and are the ONLY AT to get a new power designed especially for them - i'm shocked, really, I am!)

scrappers - don't get energy aura

tankers - dont get energy aura

defenders - get the best corruptor secondary

castle and posi - WTF????!!!!! enough is enough already!!!! can you PLEASE give the Vills some G*D D**N love???????

i can't wait to see wtf the Villain "EPIC" AT's are going to be like...

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Very well said. I'd just like to add one thing.....

Fire/fire scrappers. Fiery embrace+BU+greater fire sword with crit = 1 shot kill on anything in the game villains can field except possibly a fire armor brute. Yes, 1 hit kill, because the ticks of damage will count as seperate sources.

Those heroes complaining about fire/fire....they're idiots.

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I'm not complaining about fire/fire scrappers. I already have one planned out to level 50, just waiting to test. Lovely AoE for scrappers? Hells yeah!

This is so freaking awesome! If issue 12 had just been the new character creator, I would have been happy.

Holy crap this is good stuff.

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Since they could have done a straight port, but didn't for electric, there must have been something with the set that gave them trouble.

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Conserve Power, duh.

Same reason they can't do a straight port of Electric Armor or Ninjitsu to Scrappers. They're not gonna give anyone 2 Conserve Powers or 2 Caltrops (for example).

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Dont forget the color change...They dont want red elec for the hero side it has to be changed to the same color as the hero elec blast.

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I had forgotten that elec for brutes had Conserve Power. Thus electric melee would have needed a bit more time and effort to get right. I can see why the devs skipped it for now. Not sure how much work the color change thing would need.

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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.

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You're right: however, you can define "pleasing the most customers as possible" in many ways.

You apparently have chosen "take longer, spend more money, and give out the most expensive powersets after a significant delay."

They have apparently chosen "take less time, spend less money, and give out the easiest sets first, and budget for all the rest later."

Both are valid means to achieve that business model.
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But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.

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Says who? They stated very plainly that they were going with the quick-and-easy-to-port power sets first. I fail to see how we didn't know what they had in mind. They said so in plain English.

Why everybody started imagining Electric Tanks, Illusion Dominators, and all the other pie-in-the-sky exchanges, I have no idea.

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I agree with your business model ideas. And since the devs had said that issue 12 wasn't going to be that "Wow!!", it makes sense for them to take the less time, easiest sets first route.

However, it seemed fairly easy to just port over electric/electric to tanks. And from reading the forums, lots of folks were frothing at the mouth to get an electric/electric tank. I didn't read a single person asking for dark/dark tankers (unless I seriously misread something). Since they could have done a straight port, but didn't for electric, there must have been something with the set that gave them trouble.

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ZOMG I didnt team with MMs before due to the lack of players who could/would be willing to control their pets. Now that they have one of the most chaotic sets in the game I will team with them even less, which was just north of never anyways. An Emp MM on the other hand, I would have bitten the proverbial bullet and teamed with. I have to say bravo to the devs for making one of the least-liked-for-teams ATs into even more of an annoyance. Just goes to show how much of the subscribers opinons they actually listen to.

...and why do they keep such a distance from the concept of a regen brute? Does the idea of having a brute that can generate fury and hold it becuase of no lack of endurance from Quick recovery at level 6 seem like that scary of a thought? "No, we dont want brutes to be able to utilize their inherent until atleast half way through the game." So what if everyone and their grandma made a regen brute and all other secondaries were ignored from now on. Isnt that what has happened to scrappers on blue side anyways?

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PEBKAC

Stop blaming the devs for the actions of unskilled players.

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I thought that Stalkers were the least-liked for teams ATs.

And regen gets QR at level 4. I think regen Brutes would be awesome.

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It's simple majority rules man. Of course you can't please everyone, but you can aim to plz the most players possible. I garantee a simple poll would have clearly shown that Dark/Dark was not what the majority would have chose for tanks....or elec/elec for stalkers and so on.

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You seem to forget that this isn't a democracy (just like any business). The final choice was and is only theirs. Your choice, and others, is will you subscribe or will you find something that you find more entertaining.

They might be still working on balance issues for elec/elec tanks for all we know. For instance maybe something in gauntlet stopped them from including elec/elec.

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Granted this isn't a democracy, but the idea of pleasing the most customers as possible, is still very much a part of your typical business model.

I think that lightning field in electric would have made a great taunt aura. But still, we don't know the devs reasoning and they may have had a good reason for in.

Still, as it has been pointed out, this is the first round of proliferation, so I'm sure we will eventually get to seeing electric/electric brutes running around and hopefully ss and em scrappers.

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As the the patron's, if they add APP's, or change or tweak anything even a single power they would have to grant a one-time patron respec to everyone that has done it.


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They don't need to change the Patron Power Pools at all. What they need to do is just give the Ancillary Power Pools that heroes have as is (barring and FX/Coloring changes) to the Villain ATs that they make sense for. Then as a player you can then choose wether to use either your Patron Pool or one of the Ancillery Pools. This would Eliminate the need to make Patron Pools Respecable. While makeing many Villain PvP Players happy.

Then at a later date add 4 Patrons for Heroes along with thier corresponding powers.

I would be fine with this solution. Hopefully when Castle gets his new power guys up to speed. He has a chance to look at this issue.

~MR

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Somehow I don't think the Devs are going to make the Patron Pools optional. However, you could open up the Patron Pools and turn each one into something matching the Hero Epic Pools. For example, say you are a MM and choose Ghost Widow as your Patron. Instead of just getting stuck with the default choices, you get 3-4 MM/Ghost Widow pools to choose from, similar to how the Epics work. I realize this would involve 4 times the work as having regular Epics, since you need 3-4 Patron Epic Pools for each of the 4 Patrons.

If they follow your idea (which would be a lot easier than my idea), then it might be nice to have Hero Patrons. That would be something to look forward to.

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This paying customer is truly depressed and let-down...way to make heroes the focus of this game...you better make I13 about villains and villains only

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Or what? You're going to take your ball and go home?

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Word of advice devs...hire a seperate team for villains...if you truly think that this is a seperate game, heroes shouldnt develop for villains...

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Why because some 14yo little twit with no concept thinks he's entitled or owed something.

Word of advice kid, learn to use proper tone. Devs don't owe you a damned thing. You're here by choice. Deal.

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Well, to be fair, since we are paying for the game on a continuous, monthly basis, the Devs do owe us something, since we supply their salaries. Maybe not pandering to our slightest whims, but I feel they need to be held responsible to what the player/customer base wants to some extent. Granted it still comes down to talking with your money and if you are unhappy, you can take your money elsewhere. But to say the devs don't owe us a damed thing? That is a bit of an exaggeration.

I think having a separate team for Villains sounds like a decent idea. Sure the posters tone was bad, but still...

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I have a question about the makeover...is it going to be easier to get the Cavern Trail?

I love this trial. Used to run it all the time. I even remember the one time I spent 16+ hours trying to beat it (bad PuGs...no stealth/tp, on some of the attempts...ect) and then completing the first thing the next morning

However, while I still hit the hollows, I don't make the effort like I did before to not out level the contact.

So just wondering, is it easier now? Cuz that trial is still one of my favorites to do.

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Doesn't sound like it will be any easier, other than having the mission doors closer to the contacts. However, I believe you can still do the various arcs with Ouroborus as Flashbacks to open up the trial.

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I agree with the first aid station, although it removes the 'hook' for my EMT character, an emp/elec that is part of a search-rescue battallion attached to the Paragon Fire Dept. Many hours have I spent in the Hollows, waiting for the call for rez/evac. Now players can do that themselves.

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You did that too? My tank spent a good deal of time starting in his 20s hanging around the Hollows healing and rez fallen heroes (usually blasters) who insist on "fighting a desperate battle against incredible odds". Got the Medic badge this way.

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The SG i belong to Is based around this Whole Idea, except we started in i2 in Perez Park. We Also Hope that the revamp of the zone will make the zone more active so we will have more people to heal and buff. Currently (on infinity) it tends to be about 4 people in the zone at any given time.

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Way back when I first started playing, there were people "parked" at the Atlas entrance who offer their Recall Friend services to anyone in Kings Row. It was one of the things that really drew me into CoH: the uber-friendly and kind people who played the game.

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I've done the recall friend duty in the Hollows with my Defender. It's a good way to do a little charity.

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Question...did they make it easier to get the Cavern Trial?

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They made no changes to the Tunnels. So no.

Just get a map of the Tunnels and memorize the shortest distance to the trial door.

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it'll be a cold day in hell if Scrappers get EM

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I've been praying for a cold day in hell since I started playing this game. I'll even shovel more snow onto Satans' doorstep personally. Bite me Satan.

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Yeah, the day after the first day of Spring, we get 6 inches of snow, here in Michigan. There is a Hell, Michigan, you know, and it freezes every year.

So give scrappers EM and/or SS already.

I just realized that I only had the "visit Wincott" mission once on any of my toons. Because once I hit level 5, I just head to the Hollows anyway. I don't give my contacts a chance to send me to Wincott. I've not really tried to avoid the Hollows ever.

I will do the first two missions from Azuria, street sweep and then when I hit level 5, I go to KR and get my jet pack from the safeguard mission and then head to the Hollows. I did notice that on my latest toon, a WP/EM tank that I went from level 5 to level 6 just by doing the 3 radio mission and the safeguard mission. Yay for xp curve smoothing.

I've always liked the Hollows and like the new changes. Except for the Vahz being there. I hate the Vahz and don't want them spoiling my Hollows.

I'm most excited about the mission doors being closer to the contacts. I was just in the Hollows the other day with my level 6 tanker and Flux sent him down to within 50 yards of the Skyway door. That's not necessary.

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Now make Hollows radio missions available so I can get the temp travel powers there instead of having to go to King's Row and I'm sold.

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What he said.

Well played indeed.

First off: Thanks BaB for that detailed explanation.

Secondly: I think the only way we will get the kind of power customization we all want is for the devs to completely re-write the engine so that it is as flexible as the one CO is supposedly using. I'm not a programmer, but even I can imagine how hard/complicated/costly/time-consuming that would be.

So, what accolade is the Posi task fore needed for, besides the Task Commander? Or is that it?

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I still would like the ability to add/invite new players/teammates to a TF/SF if it goes below the minimum for the TF/SF (if the others have QUIT and not just logged off).

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I don't like this idea. People who haven't had any part in the task force could be brought in right at the end and collect a nice, shiny reward. You might even run into people kicking other players off at the last minute just so they could invite an alt on another account.

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Yeah, but when they get around to the whole "If you haven't been on a TF long enough you can't get a reward," thing like in regular missions and mission end bonuses, then it would work out.

But yeah, I agree that it could be abused until that time.

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My two cents:

Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...



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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:

8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.

The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.

We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.

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Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.

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We considered that option along with others, but given our timeline for Issue 12 we didn't go that route. It involved a lot of risky coding in our current development cycle where we are trying to close this live branch and shift to Issue 12. We felt this was a good compromise to address immediate concerns.

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You know Lighthouse, even though some of us may disagree with this change, I do appreciate you coming on the boards to explain things.

I missed the part about the RMT thing. That modifies my feelings on the matter.

Maybe in the future you guys can use the other posters suggestion that if you have not spent enough time in the TF, then you don't get the reward. I like this suggestion as if someone logs, the rest of the team doesn't get hurt by larger spawns, but still addresses the your concerns about exploiting the TF.