The_Foo

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But here's the 64K question: what the hell is it doing lately to evolve and revolutionalize itself or the genre?

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Hard to answer that without knowing what's in future Issues.

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QFT

And this game is still so far ahead of others when it comes to revolutionizing itself and the genre that I think they still have quite a while before woo'ing people becomes a necessity. I play other games. I play GW. I play WoW (filler games I assure you). This game remains my main MMO fix because you can do things here that you simply can't do elsewhere. I'm not going to list what, there's just too much. They're welcome to my subscription fees for a long time to come.

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What genre are you speaking of here, 'cos it's not revolutionising the superhero genre so much as it's basically ignoring it...

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Skeleton crew? Guys, let's not jump to conclusion here. First, Cryptic Studios hasn't layed anyone off. A quick glance shows we're hiring! Second, NCSoft announced cutbacks, but the announcement didn't specify where people were taken off.

We started trending more towards 3/year within a few Issues...mostly because we started learning about the production & QA cycle.

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I don't know why this guy thinks he is, but he obviously doesn't read these boards very well because none of this rubbish is supported by all the other stuff I've read here. He's making it all up. Fanboy.

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I'm pretty sure that's incorrect usage of "fanboy". A fanboy would be a "fan".

He's more of a hateboy, or a naysayer, really.

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Wow that looks great Gamma_Girl.

Thanks alot.

is any one left on your list Foo. Or are you removing them all. Add me, i dare you.

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I did a drawing of DonnchadH last night, but now I'm going to burn it.

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lol, I love you, Foo

soooo...

here is Artemis Troy for you!

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Awesome! Thanks a lot!

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....

I am seriously wierded out right now. Catching up on this thread I saw Foo summon Statesman! He summoned him like he was a primordial wizard or something. The powers of The Foo I knew were many, but scorcery and the magical arts? Whooo, those are new to me..

>.>
<.<

Oh, yeah, I have nothing on topic to say. This thread lost me a few days ago.

=^ ^=

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I summoned Positron, too, but I'm honour-bound not to abuse the power.

With great power comes great responsibility...

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Wow that looks great Gamma_Girl.

Thanks alot.

is any one left on your list Foo. Or are you removing them all. Add me, i dare you.

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I did a drawing of DonnchadH last night, but now I'm going to burn it.

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Shutting down the queue!! That's a much better idea than letting them pile up and ignoring them like I do!

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You bring it upon yourself by adding people for being sarcastic.

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I only added you so I could take you off the list later in a fit of rage.

LIKE NOW!

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2007 has three Issues planned for it, one near Q1/Q2, one for the summer, and one for the end of the year.

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OK, then. January 1st, June 21st and December 31st. We'll be waiting with complaints at the ready should any of these dates slip!

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Umm... near Q1/Q2 would be near the end of April/beginning of May, and the second one will more likely be in August not June. That's if you use every 4 months as a rule.

You may want to adjust your complaint calendar a bit.

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Hey, Q1 Starts January 1st. Summer starts June 21st. Posi said Q1 and Summer. So there.

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My companies' Q1 started in November.

And now I will summon Statesman to speak on Cryptic's staffing!

VIM VAM VOOM GO STATES!

It's because you have cottonballs on your hands and refer to yourself as mew. Cut your hair and take off those tails! :mad"

Oh ya, I went there, furries.

Also, I now summon Positron to speak to thee on updates.

BIM BOM BAM POSI-GO!

Shutting down the queue!! That's a much better idea than letting them pile up and ignoring them like I do!

I DON'T TRUST ROBOTS

Hey cool! That's be awesome: Take your pick!

Anything with my name on it's open!

Very cute!

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I’m just saying sometimes you learn more from a smack in the head than a gentle hand on your shoulder.

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My Proctologist had the 'gentle hand on your shoulder' technique down pat. It didn't mean that what the other hand was doing was nice at ALL.

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ZOMG PIX PLS?

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Likewise the idea that "no news is good news" is a very bad idea. No news means no feedback, good or bad. That means people don't care enough to say something. That's a bad place to be.

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...or it means they're too involved in what they're doing to say anything. I know my own habits in this regard, at least: If I go to a restaurant and the experience stinks, I'll gripe quite a lot. If everything's reasonable... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, and leave. If everything was fantastic... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, tip more than normal, and leave.

I've been making an effort to drag people's managers over to let them know that their suboridnate has done a heck of a job and deserves a raise, or write complimentary emails... but it requires far more deliberate thought than to take the time to gripe.

In short, people that are happy tend to keep doing whatever's making them happy; people that aren't happy complain.

EDIT: Also, would someone PM me a few links to what they consider to be reasonable complaints or criticisms with overblown flaming in response? I'd appreciate it.

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Sir or madam, I offer you the majority of the Tanker forum.

Wait, she HELPS others? Oh man, she's so off the list.

Spin that wheel! Spin! Big money! No Whammies!

S'awright.

I believe anyone that starts a serious post with "ZOMG" should be sterlised for the good of humanity.

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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"

I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.

Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.


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You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.

I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.

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I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.

Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.

I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.

The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.

...uh, sorry about the soapbox.

Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.

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Ok, but how helpful is "ZOMG ED SUX U NERF ME YOU <BLEEPITY BLEEPING> DEVS!!!"?

That's where criticism fails to even exist and insults take over completely. But, even a thread that starts out like that, a couple of posts asking why that might get a little more intelligent discussion going are beneficial. On that point, I agree with you. I just haven't seen very many that started heated not get deleted because they go way out there.

And I know the devs are adults. It's a shame though that some of playerbase can't at least sound adult-like. Think about it, screaming 'u sux devs i h8 u' versus actually explaining what's upsetting isn't going to make anyone listen. It's true in life. The louder you talk, the less people listen. You start from an aggressive and angry place and the natural response is to get defensive.

Try it. In life or in game, if you want to get a point across to someone, think about how you'd take what you want to say from someone else. Think about how you can phrase it to get the other person to see your point of view. Then talk to them in a manner that sounds like they want to help you. Congratulations, you now have career possibilities in politics, and managerial position, Corporate America or as a lawyer. No, I'm not joking. If you know how to phrase it, you can tell another person to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. If you can do that, you can certainly make a point on a forum that has a lower probability of degrading to 'u suk' 'no u suk'.

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I wasn't at all discussing "ZOMG ED SUX U NERF ME YOU <BLEEPITY BLEEPING> DEVS!!!" posts, for the record.

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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"

I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.

Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.

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To many, that phrase ("It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?") really says is "I'm ignorant and judgemental, please flame me."

- The statement assumes that the problem is obvious, a fix is easy, and assumes the developers are incompetent. It ignores the fact that EVERY game design studio has had the same issues, that games are not an exact science, and that MOST games go through radical revisioning as they try over and over again to come up with something that *seems to* work. An online game, that can only iterate through so many "revisions" before becoming horribly late, is all the more difficult.

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I have no idea how you got here from what I said. I was purposefully vague and unspecific, and you seem to have drawn specific conclusions.

I will also offer the following as counterpoint: Circeus and Arcanaville. Both posters have identified and offered solutions to problems that the Dev team implemented. I’m fairly certain both have also, at times, been critical of certain aspects of the team as lacking.

The problem can be complex. Just because someone on the boards believes they’ve got an answer doesn’t mean it’s simple. The person on the boards also does not have to necessarily have an answer to know that something’s wrong, either. The fact that some on the board HAVE pointed out problems, given solutions, and had them implemented would seem to indicate that, well, it doesn’t matter that other studios have issues, or the most games have revisions.

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- It assumes that there's some "outside force" that just needs to be put in charge to make everything right. Now, I've been amazed at how poorly-structured and planned some game studios are, but I've also seen where studios trying more "traditional" process improvement management techniques have suffocated.

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I don’t understand your point here.

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There are no good answers, and the confrontational tone used (challenging someone's competence) will just derail the issue, rather than address what you really want to address.

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No good answers to what, exactly? I’m pretty sure there are good answers to great many things, though I don’t disagree that a more confrontational tone is generally ill-advised. I simply said that tone has little bearing on truth.


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Much of this can be seen in how a (good) teacher operates. We can't ignore faults and flaws- we have to grade people writing in kiddiespeak poorly, but we also frame it in a way designed to encourage, not discourage.

-You don't say "you're (the devs) are incompetent"-BUT- you don't ignore the mistakes (like some fans do):

1)Identify the issue. Only the observable facts, no assumptions.
"The first hints for I8 pointed to a September launch. Then, it was stated that Inventions were put off to I9 so it wouldn't delay I8. Then, I8 was delayed anyway, with hints to a launch post-halloween. Now, it's post-Thanksgiving.

2) Recognize the challenges. Show you understand what they face and are not being unreasonable.
I understand that some changes to underlying tech can cause some unforseen consequences, and that those issues are difficult to schedule for, but the delays frustrate the player base.

3) State the goal
We need to either
-improve our ability to plan debugging into our schedule or
-manage the tech updates in a way that won't delay content releases.

4) (Optional) Offer solution leads.
This might very well involve bringing in someone more experienced at realistically establishing a schedule. It might involve additional training from an external "expert."

Whatever you suggest, just be ready to accept that they might see more about the issue than you, and their solution may differ radically from yours.

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Again, I’m not disagreeing. I’m just saying sometimes you learn more from a smack in the head than a gentle hand on your shoulder.

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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"

I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.

Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.


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You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.

I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.

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I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.

Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.

I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.

The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.

...uh, sorry about the soapbox.

Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.

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Were there people telling the devs suck in this particular thread?

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There was a bit and it was certainly starting to head down that road.

More frequent updates have their advantages, both in appeasing the customer base and even in development. Rapid prototype-rapid deploy has a lot of benefits not the least of which is better quality because you limit you changes and that makes devlopment and testing more efficient.

The side effect is that you end up with an evolutionalry system, instead of a revolutionary one. I really don't think the players will like that, to be honest. If you get new costume pieces now and again, a few new missions here and there, some art changes one month, maybe a new zone which open up slowly, people will not feel like they're getting anything. Looking at the changes over the course of a year you'd see a lot of changes and improvements, but they'd happen so gradually you'd not really feel like you were getting anything at all. The big bang deliveries make the impact, not the gradual imcremental impacts.

When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers. be careful what you pray for.

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You're arguing extremes here. Why is the choice between "six-month or more cycles" vs. "one-month, with a few missions, costumes, and bit-by-bit zones"? Has anyone even been suggesting that?

I know people mentioned another game that did things monthly, but they also mentioned it as a negative for the same reasons you give, so I doubt it was a suggestion.

People seem to be saying 3 or 4 times a year, which is 3 or 4 months apart, not 1, which leaves room for a heck of a lot more than a few costume bits and a mission or two.

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It's massively different to say "This mechanic is horribly broken" and "The devs are stupid for making this horribly broken mechanic".

Sure, you could claim the first implies the second - but you could also chock the first up to the devs making a mistake (because ya know... they're human and all; and no amount of dev-side testing can get all the possible kinks we players can cause out of the system either).

So while the truth may hit close to home, its different than just being insulted to your face - which alot of people do intentionally when its not necessary <x.x>;

Sorry, but its bugged me for a long long time and if people ever want respect instead of being called "whiners" - they have to act respectable and not whine in the first place.

I know it can be annoying for someone to be called a 'whiner' - but I'll be damned if it isn't just as annoying to be called a 'fanboi' just because you happen to agree with a given policy.

The labeling just has to go <x.x> it helps nothing!

I'll shuddup for awhile now; I'm tired!

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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"

I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.

Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.

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Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)

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Of course, there have been numerous posts relating to all of these valid critisims in which the authors were called whiners or something similar, regardless of how well they worded their posts. There is a trend on these boards to call anyone who says anything negative about the game and/or the devs a whiner. It's like some sort of strange forum defense mechanism.

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Yeah I understand - and I don't particularly like that attitude either mind you. However, its one thing to complain about the game (in a logical manner) - and quite another to aim at the devs. Calling the devs names/calling them out - not right, not good.

What does calling Statesman or Positron a loser accomplish? Except to make them skip what very well may be an otherwise good post. I see it too often - someone who ends up making an issue personal when it shouldn't be.

Saying something negative about the game - done right, is fine. Saying something negative about the devs isn't right, because you've got no reason to ever bring it up outside of pure personal animosity, something that doesn't help.

I think that's why people do lambast even legitimate complaints very quickly - because there is *so* much just flat out whining "OMG ED SUX" "POSITRON IS STUPID" etc... etc...

Heck, even well-made posts like Arcanaville's are often tinged with "If they devs had any idea how to do math..." etc...

That kind of personal crap isn't good, it doesn't help, and again, at best it just prevents them from reading an otherwise informative post.

Say the same thing with less vitriol on the other hand, and you'll get noticed.

Also - as I may have said; people won't always agree with you. That includes "even if you really are correct." So you've got to accept that if you make a comment - Good or Bad - you'll find at least one person disliking it; and have to be willing to accept it.

(Example: My Mecha EAT in my sig - I had pages and pages of people saying "This is a great idea!" and 5 or 6 people specifically poking holes in it. Sometimes it was helpful, sometimes not - but to put an idea out, no matter how popular, you've got to be willing to accept someone is going to disagree with it.)

Also, this is a license to disagree with other people, regardless of their ideas; including developers. What it is also however, is a statement "Keep it focused on the issues - quit with the personal attacks."

I've been guilty of it myself more than once, but one of the things that REALLY makes it hard on these forums is people getting personal. "Can you read?!" "Nice reading comprehension" "Ur spellin sux!" go in the same category as "FANBOI!" and "You've got brown on your nose."

Etc... None of that is necessary to debate a given issue.

Of course its different when you're just having a thread for fun - but when it comes to game issues - stick to the issues.

That's really all I'm asking. Don't speculate on what the devs were smoking when they put in Feature Y. Don't blame "Stupid anime people" for costume parts you don't like. Don't blame PVPers for 'ruining your game'. Do explain why you don't like Feature Y. Do give your opinion of why a given costume piece doesn't 'fit' in your mind. You may be disagreed with, but at you are indeed allowed your say (as are they). Do explain why you dislike PVP - don't generalize the players that enjoy it as subhuman in the process however.

Really it goes for all arguements - but especially the way these forums get at times.

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Sometimes there's nothing more personal than the truth.

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Ok Foo, this just made me chuckle. I mean, do you live on the same planet as me? People will complain about absolutely anything no matter the situation.

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You're essentially saying, "Well, no matter what they do people will complain," but the majority of people only complain when they're getting antsy and bored, really.

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The pessimism is strong with these ones, my master...

Maybe I'm naive, but I genuinely think that if you're keeping people entertained, most of them will shut up and play the game. Sure, they'll [censored] on the boards while they're at work, but I really think most people prefer playing and having fun to whining for whining's sake.

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Most maybe, but there is that group that is not happen no matter what and feel the need to voice it constantly.

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Right, but is it really a good idea to make policy based those people?

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The original Halloween was a prelude to Croatoa.

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I'll give you the Valentine's event, but the only "trying out" Halloween had was by showing off a few of the NPC models.

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The events don't take away from development, they're sneak peeks at what's ahead. They are not throw-away. We have fun, they get to try out new mechanics. It's win-win.

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They do take away from development because they have to program the new scripts, make the new mobs, create the new missions, etc. all of which could be spent on permanent content. The fact that they take away from Issues can be evidenced by Positron previously stating that they choose not to add any zone events in I7 because they chose to focus on beefing up these events instead.

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"Trying out NPC models" means that they were already made for Croatoa, and they decided to (p)re-use them in an event.

So, really, while making new NPCs or missions or whatever may take up some time, it's time they're already spending towards the new issue anyway. I'm all for slagging a development team, but don't overstate things unnecessarily.

Events take some time, I'm sure, but they're important because they can create peaks of interest, and they're a good investment because most of them just use already-created resources with a little bit of mission-coding. It also lets them try out new tech, like the co-op teaming, in a non-permanent fashion.

*waves hand*
This is not the scapegoat you're looking for...