Stormbringer

Stormbringer,

You just spent a fair amount of time saying not much.

--thanks.

I mentioned you need a travel power. That implies clearly that you need the prerequisites. Please don't tell me you need two. I've never once faced a storm user with two, and they all did fine. Super Jump was normally more than sufficient.

--i believe, in competitive pvp, you need 2. superjump goes away with immobs which are easy enough to land in pvp and break mez protection significantly faster than holds do. you'll want something to fall back on when you're jump isn't there. if you're relying on movement as much as you are to apply your debuff, you'll want something like ss too. consider the arena settings with very low ceilings for instance. it's just smarter to have two. a stationary storm is a dead storm. any storm that's serious about pvp will likely have 2 travel powers. or they'll partner with an emp, kin or sonic defender/controller to insure they don't get immobilized. if you're interested in testing this out for yourself, i suggest the handy web grenades on your super jumping solo stormer. he won't be jumping for long. he'll be crawling.

Mez protection is far from required for a Stormie to be effective. I know. Do you know why? Because all of my PvP experience is with characters that have holds, and I made it my mission to disable the Hurricane casters I saw.

--a storm defender is one shot from being useless. a hold, disorient or sleep is all it takes. i don't know what kind of mezzing toon you play, but it's not hard to create the distance you need to launch an unfettered hold. if you can't do it, ask someone on your team to create that distance or to take the shot themselves. one shot. then the storm defender is no longer a problem. he's dead.

Remember that my post was about team tactics. Only very poor teams leave the storm character alone while someone like a Dominator picks on them. Yes, I usually disrupted the stormie. Yes, it had meaning or I wouldn't have kept it up. But it was virtually always suicide for me. It involved sacrificing myself over and over just to nullify that one character for 20 or so seconds.

--next time put your spines scrapper on the storm. or your spines stalker.

Any hero team smarter than a sack of rocks protected the Storm defender. Anyone who could had mez protection cast on them. Anyone who could immediately healed them. Anyone who could immediately tried to kill anyone who threatend the Storm Defender/Controller.

--go for the ones providing the mezz protection first. once they fall, so does half the team. the buffers are where the real powers lies in a good pvp team.

What other character in PvP warrents that kind of attention? What other powerset in play is a huge red flag of "defeat that character or we are screwed?" Can you name one that even comes close to the urgency of Hurricane?

--sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first. the only reason that storm is alive is because 1) he/she has been granted mez protection and 2) someone is there to heal him/her.

Most Storm characters are far from helpless. Controllers have a wide array of counter mezzes to use on you. Some of the Defender blast sets are very effective against other Squishies in PvP - I can only wish I got the full Psionic Blast set that Defenders do on my Dominator.

--unfortunately most defender blasts suck in pvp. take it from me. i have electric. while i agree, defenders are tot defenseless, they are far from dangerous. at most, a debuffing defender can hope to debilitate one of his teammates for a time, sacrificing his own participation to keep that other toon from being effective. this is what debuffing defenders do. it's all we do. we don't have buffs. we don't have damage. all we do is debuff--because of this we hear a good deal of complaints like yours.

--for controllers it's different. they can be effective because they pose an offensive threat AND they have the ability to defend themselves. they also get mez protection...a limited version of mez protection (if they choose a particular epic). a storm controller still cannot heal him/herself. they still need to move to be effective. they're not without their weaknesses. i can't speak for all 'trollers, but my ice/storm is far from overpowered. on certain teams i would say she can be very effective. on other teams i would say her presence is negligible. on some teams (where i have no outside healing), she is often a target for scrappers, blasters and tanks (albeit well-built tanks).

Again, let me restate what I said in my post. Hurricane was not perfect. Hurricane users were not invincible. However, the singular effect of that power on the battlefield overshadowed everything else. The arrival of no other hero powerset could change the course of events to the degree that Hurricane could. This is why it was changed.

--i beg to differ. i think empathy and kin are a lot more significant in team battles. i would argue that a well-played sonic and ff could be equally as effective as any storm, if not moreso (because of their ability to remove opponants from competition alltogether, without sacrificing themselves).

--i think the nerf to hurricane was a kneejerk response to player complaints that were ill-informed. i think the problem is not with hurricane and how it was performing, but with other aspects of the game (stackable mez protection buffs, for instance). now this is not an easy thing to see in the arena or in a pvp zone. all anyone notices is the big dumb hurricane that keeps pushing them away. so that's what people complatin about.

If you want to see a Hurricane player who could kill you dead as a Squishie, I recommend you look up Blunt on the Justice server. His character was Storm/Psi. And, in fact, he could kill Dominators and Corruptors with tremendous facility. Psi Blast contains some excellent, fast activating blasts that include such wonderful side effects as sleep, disorient and immobilization. Combining this with the knockback effect of Hurricane, the slow and -fly effects of Snowstorm, and Hurricane's lingering toHit debuff, Blunt could catch other squishies, disable them, prevent them from getting up, and kill them at leasure.

--sounds pretty good. i don't know much abou the psi set for defenders. i know for controllers it's devastating.

So understand that appealing to my notion that somehow Hurricane users are helpless targets simply isn't going to carry much weight with me. Do I think they were godly? Certainly not. But they weren't some walking target, just waiting to die.

--on some teams they are.

---but to my point....it takes more than hurricane to make an effecitve build here. it takes reliable, fast movement powers...it takes a formidable offense...and it takes significant mez protection. yes storm can be a formidable set, in some builds and on some teams. it is also far from invincible. it is built on a lot more than just hurricane. and very often, what a good storm summoner is built on is a good team.

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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies.

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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?

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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".

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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense.

to claim a hurricane was overpowered in a certain aspect of pvp (base raids of all things) as grounds for a pvp and pve nerf doesn't completely add up.

something's missing here.

if nothing else a simple explanation that, given the coding of the power, it had to be the same in pvp and in pve.

that would be enough.

but we didn't get that.

we got...nothing.

it's almost as if the devs were addressing the wrong question or that something got lost in translation.

i dunno, it's just bizarre.

until the devs answer the right questions here, their treatment of the issue appears sloppy and ill-informed.

as a customer with so many hours invested in this project, i'm deeply concerned.

and come on...was hurricane so powerful to begin with that it outshone powers like force bubble, detention field, TK, and sonic cage..?

i know opinions are going to vary on this, but i really don't think so.

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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I agree with KidQuick. Any Tanker who's relying on anything but their level 38 power is, in fact, relying on three or four powers minumum to survive. In fact, Invulnerable Tankers are likely to use both Unstoppable and their toggles.

In contrast, all a Hurricane user needed to completely reshape the battlefield was a travel power and Hurricane. At present, I can't think of any other power that had this affect on team PvP play. The arrival of a stormie on the battlefield immediately shaped the hero's tactics and formation, and typically shifted favor to the hero side.

Were stormies invincible? No. Did they make their team invincible? No. Did they provide a disproportionate advantage? In my opinion, they did.

Yes, Tankers have shields, and perhaps one shield matters more than others. And I'll agree that the same is, indeed, true of may other ATs and characters. But I have never, ever seen the arrival of any single other powerset shape the battlefield the way Hurricane has.

Were the changes made what was neeeded? I truly am not qualified to say. Should the changes have spilled into PvE? I wish they didn't. But I do feel very confident that something needed to be done to the power's performance in PvP.

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to be effective in a battle, a hurricane user needs to do the following...

1) have hurricane
2) have a travel power...preferable 2. i recommend superjump and superspeed
3) have the 2 prereqs for the travel power
4) have some sort of mez protection (from a teammate or from bfs)

now, what happens is the storm guy takes these 5 powers and pops a couple breakfress then he/she runs around and continually debuffs his oppontants and makes things easier for his team.

however, the opposing team is by no means helpless in this situation. there are several things they can do to nullify the storm guy or gal...

1) avoid him/her - the storm can only debuff you if it hits you. try moving away from them on the axis of your choice
2) immobilize him/her - i recommend web grenades...these are available everywhere and can break through bfs
3) hold him/her - ranged holds are best, unless you're a scrapper, tank, stalker or brute - then melee will do. controllers usually do a nice job of nullifying a pesky stormer. although dominators work just as well. if you're squishy you'll want some range. if you're not, just melee the storm into a coma.
4) kill him/her - to do this use a blaster, corrupter, stalker, scrapper, or controller works best. the storm guy or gal has no inherent self heal. they'll go down like a wet sack of crap.
5) get powers with to-hit buffs...they eat right through storms. don't believe me? ask your spines scrapper/stalker friends. they know.
6) just stand there and take it. no really. the storm guy's not gonna kill ya by him/herself. not anytime soon. thing is, the storm guys and gals need a team too (just like you). they need teams to kill you, to keep them healed, to give them mez protection and unsurpressed movement. without buffs the storm is one of the squishiest toons out there.

don't believe me?

try playing one.

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Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

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quoted for sheer ignorance.

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It'll be ok. Nerfs suck, yes. Sometimes though they're necessary to make the playing field a little more fair. I should know the suckage pretty well with my Regen. It's ok if u want to cry. I know I did too when I had MORE THAN ONE of my bread and butter powers nerfed issue after issue.

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yeah, maybe i'll cry to the devs.

see if i can get 'em to nerf the regen set.

i think, if the devs are honest and up-front with us about the reasons they do things they can go farther toward assuaging our fears that they have our best interests in mind.

personally i believe they do.

in situations like this, however, i wonder if their perceived ad hoc responses to serious player inquiries might be doing more harm than good.

i'm not sure, for instance, all the speculating about developers' true intentions is healthy.

furthermore i'd like to help the devs make sure they got the right fix for the right problem. as a paying and playing customer, i think i'm due my say in the product i'm purchashing. on some level i want to get what i've payed for. and, because of the time i have invested in this venture, i can be pretty picky.

so i, for one, would like to hear more.

if the devs were solely concerned about pvp performance of a power, i'm curious to explore that. was the power genuinely overpowered or was it a case of player perception? was the power nerfed because of a few vocal protests or were there better reasons?

if the power was nerfed for pvp reasons and pvp reasons alone, i'm deeply concerned as to why it's affecting the pve game at all.

if the devs had other reasons for nerfing the power in pve, i'd be curious to hear them as well. as far as i could tell the power was far from exploitative in the pve game. in many pve experiences, storm defenders were consdiered second-tier defenders and (to some extent) unable to peform the roles of their AT to certain teams' satisfaction.

so i guess it would help to hear more. at the very least, it would help us clarify the issues of concern to the devs and see if they coincide with our own (however diverse those may be).

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Some jackhole spouting their smug opinions about what was "always overpowered" and using infantile buzzwords like "god mode" and "tank mage" and "herding" is not a reputable source.

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Neither is some jackhole spouting their bitter opinions using infantile works like "woodwork" and "trolls" and "smug opinions".

I'm not saying you can't say those things. I'm not saying that i think you're wrong. I'm certainly not saying that you have to be nice or even consider opposing points of view.

What I am saying with that is that you're just a reputable as anyone else, and people will always infer and believe and say what they want. Even if they gave clear cut reasons why something was changed, there will be someone, somewhere, coming out to say ANYTHING to contradict it, or claim it's a lie.

Being jaded and bitter is no excuse for insulting other people and degrading to name calling.



Just incase this gets someone mad and calling me hypocritical, I was simply using the above as an example. The first sentence of this post is by no means a measure of what I think or feel. I simply want to encourage people to keep an open mind and remind them that just because someone on the forum chooses to believe there were more reasons for a change to the game then what is officially told, doesn't make them right. Regardless of if they say they agree or not.

Remember people. Don't post angry if you can help it. It doesn't do you or anyone else good.

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not to be contentious here, but what the heck are we debating?

the devs simply said they nerfed hurricane to prevent the PvP tactic of pinning an opponant in the corner.

they have not said anything else about this.

any argument as to what other motives they had is, at this point, pure conjecture. and, to a large extent, pointless.

let's hear more from the devs on this, i think.

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Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

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quoted for sheer ignorance.

sure but, as of right now, it's the only factor the devs have mentioned.

i'd be curious to hear more from them on this matter.

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As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.

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That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.

I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.

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problem is that the dev rationale for the repel change was to keep stormers from pinning opponants in corners during base raids.

seems to imply it was a pvp change.

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If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.

Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.

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ice/storm is good too.

the group immob in ice resists KB so you can stack it with tornado for mad damage.

and, yeah, the hurricane nerf doesn't affect controllers so much. tho this depends on playstyle.

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While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.

I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.

Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.

>.>
<.<

That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.

And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.

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one thing a tank could do that a stormer never seemed to be able to do, however, was hold aggro. it was always better to have a tank do the herding. furthermore, all it ever took was one hit from the right mob and the stormer was mezzed. any delusions he/she had of being a tank quickly vanished when the word "stunned" appeared in the upper right hand corner of the screen. yes, hurricane was effectve, i'd hesitate to say it was abusive however.

another note: herdicaning != herding. two different things. herding = herding. herdicaning is the positioning of mobs via hurricane's repel and KB. herding was considered an exploit and changed with the aggro cap, herdicaning was not.

now, because hurricane's repel pulses less frequently, i'm concerned scattering mobs while attempting to debuff them will be MUCH MORE OF A CONCERN. when you approach a mob, for instance and your repel has just finished pusling it will be a full second before the mob MIGHT be affected by the next pulse. conversely, if you hit a mob just as the repel is pulsing the mob MIGHT be affected immediately. the problem is an old one for storm defenders (not so much for controllers because of the differences in the way they use hurricane relative to their primary holds/immobs)...the problem is one of unpredictability. a storm defender has NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER REPEL IS ABOUT TO PULSE. he/she therefor has no way of consistently applying its repel power and can therefor NOT POSITION MOBS as reliably as before.

and, while i agree the endurance reduction is handy, it is by no means needed for a well-built storm defender.

yes there is some good that comes with this change, but there's a lot more bad.

finally, i have a question to the community...

i've not seen anything about the rest of hurricane's debuffs. if anyone has seen a red name response as to the extent to which -to hit and -range are affected by the increase in time between pulses, i'd be very curious to read it. are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?

if anyone knows for sure, please let me know.

i haven't been able to do that much testing yet.

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I'm so happy about this nerf. Now melee has a chance to hit stormers. Hurricane was the new Instand Healing. A power that made you untouchable. Hopefully this nerfs works well, otherwise I hope they chop it some more. If anything it should have been made into a click like Instant Healing.

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it's this kind of ill-informed nerfherding that's gonna gut this game.

do some research before you post, kids.

otherwise someone somewhere might listen to your dumb ideas and do something about them.

and that just makes the world dumber for all of us.

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the nerf was inappropriate.

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QFT. Good to see you still defending the set, Stormbringer.

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dood, have you tried herdicaning recently?

it's a pain in the [censored] after ragdoll physics!

this just makes it worse.

it's as if the goal of the set is no longer controlled chaos...

it's just plain chaos.

BAH!

so...

are hurricane's -range and -to hit debuffs only applied once per second now as well? or is it just the repel that was nerfed?

if i have to stand next to a mob for a full second to land my debuffs i'm going to be eating a lot of dirt...

this sucks.

it's a flat out nerf for pve and pvp.

the power is significantly less useful now because it's even less reliable for positioning or holding mobs.

in pvp, it's now SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER for blasters, scrappers, tanks, stalkers, brutes and corrupters to melee a storm.

the end reduction in NO WAY makes up for the overall downgrading of this power.

sorry all, but this change blows.

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

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QFT

hurricane was never overpowered.

there were and are plenty of counters for it.

the reason it got nerfed is because it's a debuff power and inexperienced players are more inclined to complain about a debuff power 'cuz it affects their toons negatively. notice how few people complain about clear mind or clarity--they're buffs.

it spooks me a bit to see this happening, but i think the devs will continue to nerf debuff powers in the interest of an ill-formed notion of balance until this phenomenon becomes clear to them.

hurricane was never unbalanced in pvp. at least not when compared to powers like sonic cage, detention field, clear mind, clarity...

the cries against it were unjustified.

the nerf was inappropriate.

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I really would like to know how the numbers work out for PvP, Statesman. That's where the hardest edge of things is. After all, no AI will ever be as hard a fight as a good human, and we want to be the best we can be.

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First: we are NOT changing Defense Debuff Enhancements at all. This was an error in the patch notes.

Let me clarify a few things about the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change (from Schedule “A“ or 8/16/33 to Schedule “ B“ or 5/10/20).

_Castle_ was right that the decision was affected by Hamidon Enhancements though this was not the primary reason for the change. We needed to change the way To Hit Debuff Enhancements worked because of the upcoming I7 change to the To Hit calculations. There have always been some issues with Defense and Resistance. The former was affected by level differences, while the latter was not. For example, an even con would have a base to hit value of %, while a Boss 2 levels higher than a player would have a %. But if a player had damage resistance, it would apply the same discount to damage regardless of the mob’s level.

In order to balance the playing field, we decided to give mobs the same base To Hit value instead (this was, in fact, brought up on the forums!). Now all mobs, regardless of level, have a base to hit of 50%. The only difference between ranks of mobs (boss, lieutenant and minion) and levels is the Accuracy.

In order to decipher this a little bit easier, let’s take a look at the to hit formula.

(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs – Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)

In the case of the Base To Hit – Defense, the value is floored at ..05 or 5%. It can’t go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy can’t go higher than .95 or 95%.

Now let’s take a look at the effect that the To Hit change has on the To Hit Debuff Enhancement change with Radiation Infection and a Defender.

Before

Radiation Infection has a base To Hit debuff of 2.5 * the Defender’s Archetype boost of 0.125 = 0.3125. With 2 SO’s under the Schedule “A“ (a 66% increase to the Debuff), the end result would be 0.5187.

Here’s a breakdown of how this would play out against various ranks and levels

Even Con
Minion .5 (Base to Hit) -0.5187 (Radiation Infection To Hit Debuff) = -0.0187 or 5% chance to hit (minimum before Accuracy modifications)
Lt. .58 - 0.5187 = 0.06125 or 6.125%.
Boss .65 - 0.5187 = 0.13125 or 13.125%.

+1 Level
Minion 55 -.05187 = 3.125% which becomes 5%.
Lt. 63 -.05187 = 11.125%
Boss 70 -.05187 = 18.125%

+2 Level
Minion .6 -.05187 = 13.125%
Lt. .68 -.05187 = 21.125%
Boss .75 -.05187 = 28.125%

+3 Level
Minion .65 -.05187 = 28.125%
Lt. .73 -.05187 = 36.125%
Boss .8 -.05187 = 43.125%

After the I7 change

Instead of changing the base to hit chance, we instead are changing Accuracy. Take an even con boss: his To Hit is only .5, but his Accuracy is 1.3. The net effect is that a boss still hits someone 65% of the time against someone without Defense, but with Defense, the equation changes substantially.

Let’s take Radiation Infection again. It’s a Schedule “B” now; with 2 SO’s, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.

Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above.

I’ll work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this…

(0.5 - 0.4375) * 1.3 = 0.08125 or 8.125%.

I’ll apply it below so that you can see the changes in action.

Even Con
Minion 6.25%
Lt. 7.1875%
Boss 8.125%

+1 Level
Minion 11.25%
Lt. 12.937%
Boss 14.625%

+2 Level
Minion 16.25%
Lt. 18.687%
Boss 21.125%

+3 Level
Minion 21.25%
Lt. 24.437%
Boss 27.625%

As you can see, the changes are quite noticeable. Minion to hit chances increase slightly in a few cases, Lieutenant changes decrease a tad, and Boss to hits really shrink. Radiation Infection REALLY comes into play at +3 levels!

Ideally, the Enhancement change should’ve gone hand in hand with I7. To be honest, there was an error there. Unfortunately, we discovered that we couldn’t pull the change out without jeopardizing the I7 release schedule. Right now, QA (at NCSoft and Cryptic) is working away at I7 and shaking out bugs. If we were to roll back this change, our teams would need to put I7 aside and retest the current build. I made the decision to stay the course instead.

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can you explain how this change might affect dark defenders, rad defenders/controllers and storm defenders/controllers in pvp (where there is an abundance of to-hit bufffs flying around)?

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The only necessary love that storm needs is to fix the bug where hurricane will push a held mob away from the controller, not the hurricane. SO ANNOYING! This bug has been going on for a long long time, I can only hope that it is fixed in I7.

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that egregious bug is unacceptable. but addressing it in no way addresses the lack of distinction between defender primary and controller secondary nor does it speak to the notion that many controller secondary powers outperform defender primaries. my feeling is that this is the issue that needs to be addressed.

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Storm is amazing as it is. You simply played with someone who didn't know how to use it and now have an incorrect understanding of how good the set is. Just because one idiot caused a teamwipe with it does not mean the problem is with the powerset. As for the "only join teams with empaths" thing, well, that's not exactly giving you a lot of credibilty posting on defender issues.

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i still say the defender storm set could use some love...something to distinguish it a bit from the controller set and, in doing so, to distinguish storm defenders from their controller counterparts. as it stands now, i think the biggest distinction is that the defenders are known for scattering mobs whereas the controllers are not.