Stormbringer

this is like talking to the wall.

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So Kidqwik what under level 25 power allows a defender to drop a tanks/scrapper/brutes toggle defensive power other than brawl? In fact the only toggle dropeers available to Storm Defenders are Thunder Clap, which has a very long animation time and only affects minions (which many do not take for that reason) and Lightning Cloud which can be avoided and is largely random.

It is ok for tanks to be essentialy immortal against a defender, but a defender should not have a defense against tanks? Yea I see where you are coming from.

Using buildings and corners tacticaly is unfair in your opinion, I guess you want to hose LOS to. Tactical considerations should be taken away from player decisions it seems. I am sure the blaster types would like that!

The game is clearly not fair because an entire group of players of melee only types were styimed by a power designed to protect against melee damage. What an injustice!! Rather than picking up a controler/dominator or any other class that has ranged damage you infer that melee players should be totaly protected from damage and be able to hit and kill anyone. Yea I see where you are coming from.

Storm Defenders were given Hurricane because they are already have weak to nonexistant defense against ranged attacks, especialy things with status effects like mez, slows, holds, and roots. They said at least they could have some defense against melee at a huge endurance cost. But you want to take that away too....

How nice that you want to be uber too. I have played a scrapper too btw and I was smart enough not let myself get pinned by a hurricane with the exception of teleport foe. That was kinda abusive, and annoying but no more annoying than being killed while I was held.

If any power is abusive in PvP it is teleport foe. Yet it remains.

I want to know why the devs feel its ok to totaly nerf storm defense which was already quite weak and give nothing in compensation?

Haven't storm defenders been screwed enough already? Snow Storm works better for controllers, Tornado does a better job disorienting for controllers, To hit debuffs have been nerfed hard with the schedule change on enhancements, in fact the only powers that work better for Storm Defenders than controllers is Steamy Mist and 02, and 02 is a serious ghetto heal, better than nothing.

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problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

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No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

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man, i gotta see this dream team you're pvping with.

they sound awesome.

you mean to tell me...

1) no one on the team could kite the hurricane?
2) no one on the team had repel resistance?
3) no one on the team had a ranged attack capable of overcoming the storm's inherent healing rate?
4) no one on the team had a ranged mez?
5) no one on the team thought to buy a ranged mez?
6) no one on the team had tp foe?
7) no one on the team had sonic cage or detention field?
8) no one on the team had dispestion bubble or TK or force bolt or any other positioning power that could move the storm and render his teammates vulnerable?
9) no one on the team had any to-hit buffs that could break the hurricane debuff?

i'm sorry.

i just don't believe you.

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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

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Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

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i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:

YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.

you need to adapt.

you simply refuse to do so.

instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.

i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.

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Dude. I'm not the only one that says it needed to be nerfed. The devs did too. Not that the devs are always right, not that I'm always right, but on this one it's overly obvious that something needed to be done to Hurricane in PvP. Adapting should not involve having to do a multitude of things of things to take out a single power. They could have nerfed hurricane a hell of a lot more, but they didn't (yet). Now Stormies will have to rely on multiple powers a bit more then besides one. That's fair adaption. The others ATs do it.

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problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

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Stormbringer,

Really, I do understand the things you're pointing out. Maybe not in the same detail you might from more extensive PvP planning and analysis, but I really do get that the Hurricane alone didn't come along and win the battle for the heroes. They had to make good use of it. They had to be smart or at least not stupid.

All I'm trying to say is that I thing the addition of the Hurricane gave them something to work with that was, IMO, more sweeping in impact than even somthing like an empath. (Who trust me, I know full well can be a wicked thing and makes a primary target on the battlefield). It's an opinion I think is well formed, but I acknowledge it is an opinion.

Last night, a controller came into SC. She (well, at least it was a female character) was Ice/Storm. She had decided not to use Hurricane in PvP because she felt people had more fun if she didn't. I don't want to debate the merits of that decision - it's just background for what I'm about to say next.

Just with her holds, debuffs, heals and liberal use of Diciplines/Break Frees (to keep from being cancelled by other holders), she had a strong effect on the battlefield. With buddies around looking out for her, she was reasonably hard to kill. And all that was without Hurricane. If she'd been using it, I do think it could have driven the villain players away, because the villains in the zone didn't have the tools one can use to surgically nullify her. Specifically, for whatever reason TP foe isn't real common. Heck, it seems less common now on both sides of open PvP. I used to get tele-ganked quite a lot.

Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you at this point. I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint. You have a very analytical view, and in particular you are coming from the perspective that "we" (the villains) should always bring the tools needed to best counter the hero powers. That makes a ton of sense when building a competition team for something like a base raid or an arena match. I'm coming from a holistic perspective based on the more random association of open PvP, where I might enter with one or two SG-mates and just make do with whoever else is in the zone. It's in that latter setting that things like Hurricane seem so powerful.

We'll see. I'm hopeful that the devs can do somthing to the power that's less distasteful to its users and fans. PvP != PvE!

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i do think the villains need more tools, uberguy.

i'm not real impressed with the selection of epic powers for villains at this point, but i'll hold out judgment on these 'til they're implemented.

for my part i'd like to see heroes and villains have access to the same sets.

and, if people were abusing hurricane in pvp base raids to the extent a fix was needed, i'd have liked to see the devs fix that and only that. my preferred solution would have been a 30 second maximum before a repel resistance kicks in...or some variation on that. i think the solution they implemented was not quite right. yes, it may have corrected the problem the devs set out to fix, but it also opened storm guys and gals to blaster melee attacks which happen to be devastating in pvp and compromise my effectiveness on a team. that is my one true lament about this supposed fix.

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CommunistPenguin wrote:

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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

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I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.

Sailboat

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and that answers the interesting question.

bah!

the question was far more interesting than the answer.

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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

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Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?

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raises an interesting question, i guess...

how long is too long to be trapped in a corner?

30 seconds?

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience.

--you don't have to be an expert to understand whether or not a change to this power is appropriate. you do need to understand the power and it's limitations before decrying it as unbalanced. the reason i'm taking the time to post here is because i believe a fair number of people do not understand this power and believe it (and it alone) is the reason for their lack of success in pvp vs. storms. i submit there's a lot more too it than hurricane.

The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.

--ironically the formation you describe is one of the worst uses of a team and the synergies that exist between their sets. this formation is easilly demolished by a smart team. how? tp foe. you can selectively remove one memeber of the "turtling" team and gang up on him/her. then wash, rinse and repeat. i suggest tping the kin if they have one. otherwise they'll be providing ID to the rest of the team and you won't be able to tp 'em. don't like that idea? here's another: aoes. nothing works better on a lame turtling opponant than powers like snowstorm, freezing rain (sleet), ice slick, etc. after a couple of slows are stacked on the team, they won't wanna be so close to each other anymore. don't like that idea? here's another: nuke 'em. yup. sacrifice one or two buffed corrupters and send 'em in for the nuke. the result? one dead turtle. seriously, this formation is so limited in what it can do, that it's almost like tee ball. here's the ball, just sitting there stupidlly right in front of you. just begging for you to blast it as hard as you can. so, next time you see a turtle, organize your team and tee off.

A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.

--a well organized team (with the right ATs and sets, skilled players and a system of communication) is always going to be very hard to beat. i know. i've lost to a number of them. when it happens, i sit around and think about it (i'm weird like that). i try to imagine what i could have done differently. i ask myself how i can improve my build or tactics. i have yet to request a powerset be nerfed, however. not saying you are, mind you. just that i know some people are requesting that or have been requesting that. and, in all honesty, i think those requests are based largely on a very limited understanding of pvp dynamics.

I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.

--there are some powers in the game that are a pain in the butt, i'll give you that. phase shift, PFF, DF, sonic cages, dispersion and force bubbles, TK, hurricane, clear mind, speed boost, the energy manipulation secondary, ice blasts...these are all effective powers. i strongly urge anyone who pvps to pay close attention to how these powers, when used well, affect the balance of the game. they do affect it, but understanding how and why they effect it is a huge part of taking your pvp game to the next level. at the very least, understanding these powers and how they can be utilized against you, will help you choose your team's targets when fighting in siren's or wherever else you happen to be.

And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.

--sure, i've seen this happen. but the hurricane was only part of the equation. i'm willing to bet that if the hurricane appeared as successful as you say, it was because of a number of other factors that include 1) someone on the team who can heal the storm guy/gal, 2) someone on the team who can provide the storm guy/gal with mez protection, 3) someone on the team who is capable to doing significant damage (to bring you bad guys down). if any one of these three other elements were not present, the perception of the storm's effectiveness would be greatly diminished. yeah, hurricane would still be a pain in the butt if you let it hit you, but it would primarily just be a defensive annoyance.

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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

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Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

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i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:

YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.

you need to adapt.

you simply refuse to do so.

instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.

i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.

for chuckles, here are some unsolicited testimonials on the relative uberosity of hurricane...

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1

that's all for tonight guys...

have a good weekend.

If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.

--maybe you're respectable, i dunno. seem a little catty to me. KIDDING! here's the deal...you can be a respectable member of the COX community and still have your numbers wrong. i'd rather go with hero planner numbers 'til you provide some evidence they're not working.

The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.

--well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.

--oh i've noticed. i submit, however, the devs might do better. listening to people who pvp might help them make better changes to the pvp element of the game. after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.

Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.

--where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy. you could consider maxing out some offense if you want to take 'em out. why? 'cuz pvp is a bit different than pve. for one thing, it's harder to hit enemies. so, if you want to hit enemies, consider doing something that would help...like slotting your powers appropriately. if you refuse to do so, please spare us the disservice of your nerfcalls.

You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.

--i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp. if you expect to be successful at pvp, i submit that you have to adapt to it. this may entail respeccing, it may entail re-slotting, it may entail chosing teams carefully. i would expect you to try and exhause all of these possibilities before crying for a nerf. the fact that you didn't do this simply indicates to me you're making a lot of noise about an issue you fail to completely understand. i'm just sayin'...that's the way it looks.

Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".

--again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.

And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.

--i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.

aw screw it...

was gonna let this go, but why stop now?

uberguy writes there are no ways to beat storm guys, contrary to what i've laid out:

So, lets break it down again.

*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.

--so we agree...

ranged damage works...

ranged mezzes work...

tp foe works...unless the storm has ID on him/her from a kin...although...if a kin is giving storm ID making him impossible to TP, what's to stop you from porting the kin? answer: nothing. unless there's another kin...and if there is, the storm isn't your problem...it's the 2 kins.

melee attacks with to-hit buffs DO IN FACT WORK...scrappers and tanks know this very well. i invite you to re-slot your attacks and to-hit buffs and enjoy the wonderful world of pvp...anything to stifle these premature cries to "nerf this!" and "nerf that!"

slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary

and pvp powers like DF, sonic cage, TK, force bubble...that people only take for pvp. those work too.

did i miss anything?

maybe.

but i think it's clear from just glancing at the incomplete list above that there's more than one way to beat a storm (as you suggested).

to your point...

"first of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack."

--this is problematic for several reasons: 1) you're not properly slotting rage for pvp, 2) you're not properly slotting your attacks for pvp. seriously, if you're going to gripe about a power being uber, please check to make sure it's really uber first. try it out slotting your rage for pvp...3 recharge, 3 to-hit buffs. try slotting your attacks for pvp as well...2 accuracies--minimum. you'll get better results.

--and yes, i know hero planner numbers are sometimes wrong, but i see no reason to believe the numbers you've provided are any better. in lieu of accurate data, i'm afraid this conversation is at a standstill.

as regards our other topics of conversation...

slows...if a storm can't move, he can't debuff squat. if the storm isn't moving anyone with a ranged attack can tee off them or their friends. they are sitting ducks. that's why i keep bring it up.

any mez protection within the hurricane is also exposed the same way the stormer is.

so why not tp the mez protector away? because it's not common in sc, doesn't mean it's not a valid tactic.

the presence of powers like DF, sonic cage TK and force bubble in PVP is because they work. and they work well. if you want to pvp competitively, try building your toon for pvp. in fact i would suggest this before calling for nerfs to sets you can't kill in certain situations. it would make the wonderful world of pvp a better place for all of us.

what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...

sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.

i submit to you, that unless you've done the work...unless you've tried all these things...you have no idea if the set you're complaining about is overpowered.

as for the rest of your post, i think it's just misleading...

you claim to have proven things that you have not. you routinely assert there's only one way to kill a storm and you refuse to see any other options. to me, it's no surprise you're having trouble in pvp. you need to take a step back and rethink things. start with your slotting and power selections. understand that people are good in pvp IN PART because they make sacrifices in pve. it's just the way it works. why else would i take both SJ and SS? to be better in pvp. toward that end i suggest taking a crack at it with your toon and copying over to test with a pvp build. heck take a whole team over. you'll be amazed at the difference your builds and power selections can make.

remember: at least 2 accuracies in every attack.

and, by all means, 6-slot rage.

good luck.

i think the nerf is a mistake.

for pvp and pve.

if the devs wanted to address the problem of cornering mobs in base raids like they said, they should have done that.

unfortunately they did that and a lot more.

to me, it looks like a poor, generic solution to a very specific problem.

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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)

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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.

Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.

And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.

So please, people... Think of the NPCs.

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*laughs!* Nicely said.

The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks.

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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)

--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...

--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.

--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.

--and there's no way hurricane is more effective now (after the pre-i7 patch) than it was before. if you'll recall, along with it's repel, hurricanes to-hit debuffs have been reduced in effectiveness as well.

Again and again, I have agreed that Hurricane has weaknesses. You keep pointing to them as though there very existance balanced out Hurricane's strengths. I feel they did not. There was one way to defeat Hurricane. Attack the caster from range. This is what I did to counter storm characters. You're not telling me anything I don't know.

--apparently i am. over and over i tell you ways to overcome hurricane, yet you appear convinced there is only one. here they are again: 1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes, 3) melee with to-hit buffs, 4) slows, 5) kill the mez protection, 6) tp the mez protection away, 7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called. hell there are probably more that i can't think of off the top of my head...BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!

Sometimes I held them. Heck, sometimes I held them over and over, running out and deliberately making opening s for the villains to try and kill the stormer. Usually I was pig-piled by the stormie's allies when I did this, meaning the stormie was free to act again, worst case, after the duration of my hold. If someone else didn't kill them by then, the first thing to go up was always Hurricane. You act like the very fact that they can be held and damaged at range is enough to ensure their cancellation. It's not. It depends on a lot of factors. And if you can't line up those factors, the stormie is right back in action again.

--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.

Do you think that team tactics are absent in the absence of a stormie? That people don't cover up for one another unless they've got a Hurricane on their side? I've seen excellent teams in operation without one. My very point is that, without Hurricane, even well organized, clearly communicating teams were vastly more vulnerable without Hurricane in the mix. Hurricane added a disproportionate benefit to any team, whether they had their heads on straight or not.

--see above response. i suggest calling out targets. when you've got one mezzed, let your teammates know and attack that hero. i recommend ventrillo or teamspeak to make this easier.

On the other hand, Hurricane did do that. Everyone would form up on the Hurricane, knowing full well that no one much could bother them in there. You get an empath or other mez-prot/heal spammer and a stormie and you surround them with melees, and suddenly you've got the CoX equivalent of a shield wall. You've got a formation that can advance into some of the most withering attacks of a massed villain team and achieve success. Not always. Not every time. But with more consistency and more likelyhood of success than any other single power I have seen available in Siren's Call.

--the point i wish to make is that hurricane only provides part of the protection you mention above...it provides melee protection from SOME classes--essentially, those without repel resists. that's SOME MELEE. not all. some.

--hurricane, in the situation you mention above, is not doing anything to debuff ranged attacks unless the ranged attackers are (foolishly) hurling themselves headlong into the hurricane and lobbing off an attack as they do so.

--hurricnane is providing no mez protection in the situation you mention above. that has to come from somewhere else.

--hurricane is not providing any anti-tp protection either.

--the defender/controller using hurricane is not keeping his/her teammates healed by using hurricane.

SO...

it is NOT THE CASE that "no one much could bother them there" in the hurricane simply because of the hurricane. if no one could bother a team in that formation it is because of the composition of the team, the synergy between various (storm, empathy, kin and melee) sets, the tactics employed by the hero team and the various degrees of skill of each of the players.

the situation you describe above is not one of a single power unbalancing the game, it is one where a well-organized team is supporting each other and compensating for each others' weaknesses.

this is not exploitative.

this is pvp.

the problem is that hurricane didn't work that well trapping mobs in corners before.

some mobs would jump over you and your hurricane, some mobs would squeak out the sides and get pushed away in the opposite direction, some mobs would just fly away.

and that was what it was like before.

now it just flat out sucks.

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?

can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?

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You can't use any of your epic powers in Siren's Call or Warburg. Too high. Also, I'm mostly in Siren's Call as my villain. I can't battle my MA/Regen against a stormie because we're both supposed to be good in SC.

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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

uberguy...

didn't know were were talking only villains. i'm not as familiar with their sets. my limited experiences with my own lead me to believe they are, overall, underpowered a bit in pvp at least relative to heroes...i attribute this to a number of issues: 1) level 40 level cap, 2) lack of enhancement slots, 3) lack of hami-os, 4) lack of front-loaded damage powers (attributable, in part to a lack of damage-oriented epic powers), 5) lack of support toons playing support roles (bring more corrupters to your fights, guys).

i'm sure there are more reasons for this perceived imbalance (and i do believe the perception is largely accurate). for my part i'd like to see heroes and villains have access to the same power sets eventually. and, yes, that would include storm.

to your points, however...

a storm summoner with mez protection is a potent force in the arena. he/she can do a major number on non-melee based attacks, debuffing their to-hit and their range. if i were playing a villain and wished to avoid this i'd do some/all of the following...

1) create distance and attack from a range outside the influence of the hurricane.
2) attack the source of the storm's mez protection
3) break the storm's mez protection with holds/immobs...once stationary, the storm shouldn't be much of a threat
4) if i were unable to target the source of the storm's mez protection and unable to break the storm's mez protection i would go for slows in an attempt to render the storm useless
5) failing this i would ask one of my major offensive threats to target the storm...corrupters, blasters, scrappers or stalkers work best for this

none of this is probably news to you. as a rule of thumb, if you run into an empath supporting a storm, take out the empath and the storm will crumble soon afterward. neither is much of a threat offensively, unless the storm happens to be a 'troller.

as for my earlier suggestion of putting spines scrapper/stalker on the storm. there are other builds that are effective against storms, i merely suggested that one as the obvious scissors to storms paper. these builds do an exceptional job of immobilizing storms, attacking through their hurricane and turning them into big, hurricane-pancake-shaped targets. they will send the storm running, trust me.

but other builds are effective against storms as well. brutes do well against them. corrupters (if they attack from a distance), masterminds (if they focus their pets on the storm) and yes, even dominators. although i think their damage is a bit low at this stage of the game and they definitely need a buff. a good single-target mez, spammed at a storm from a safe distance, will bring him/her down eventually.

does storm require limited, specific powersets to beat it? not really. unless you consider ranged attacks limited and specific. or mezzes. or brute/tanker/scrapper/stalker/blaster melee attacks.

as for your suggestion that a storm can reshape the batttlefield...i agree in part. a storm can do significant debuffing in certain arenas. but in siren's call or warburg? to be effective the storm needs all his/her opponants clumped together. as a smart villain team leader, have your team spread out a bit. have some folks take to the air. make sure everyone with superjump is hopping around like a fool (or use CJ+3-slotted hurdle+SS for awesome combat movement). the storm will be much less effective if you guys spread out and keep moving.

after that...go back to the basics. remove the team's source of healing and mez protection. then remove the biggest threats...either ice/nrg blasters, spines or broadsword scrappers, or, if you like, the storm. how you remove them depends on what powersets you have available.

i don't agree that a storm can reshape a battle more than any other set, however. a well-supported FF defender/controller/mastermind can negate the effects of a storm while offering his/her team mez protection--these sets can pin mobs into corners as well as any storm and utilize detention field to effectively eliminate one opponant from any battle. a well-played sonic defender/controller/corrupter has access to sonic cages (which can remove opponants for the duration of a contest), clarity (which provides the dreaded mez protection) and sonic armors for his/her entire team. these guys are significant foes as well. there are other sets of significant value in a fight...mind control, empathy, kinetics. all of which have the capacity to help turn the tide.

the assertion that the storm set alone, and hurricane in particular, is the reason the battle turned in the cases you mention is not accurate. it can only be a combination of things...some of which you may have noticed, some of which you may not have noticed. the primary reason players opposing a hurricane-using defender or 'troller notice it si because it debuffs them. the buffs of the empath do not directly affect the empath's opponants. the buffs of the kinetics sets to not directly affect the kinetic defender's oppontant.

so guess what?

no one notices them.

and because no one notices them, no one complains about the.

i suggest, in the case you mentioned above where one set is added to any battle to make the difference in an otherwise even fight, adding an empath or a kin. they will make all the difference in the world. moreso than a storm i think, unless the team is very small.

uberguy, i'm about to leave work (where i like to do most of my posting), but i'm more than happy to continue this discussion with you tomorrow.

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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies.

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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?

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The bazillion recommendations that were asking a bit too much:
1) Respec to SS (just to be able to run in try to hit and get propelled back to get a very slim chance to hit stormies). Not..
2) Buy web and stun grenades. (did, wasted Inf, missed every time, no refund was given)
3) Get a blaster on your team (making a team of 8 with one player that can touch the stormie from afar when the other 7 can't touch them fully demonstrates the problem) to attack one stormie
4) Can't use MoG is Siren's Call silly!

No one should have to do 10 things to have to deal with one power that runs continuously and isn't a click. For all those powers that were on all the time and running all the time that helped people stay alive like Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Instant Healing, and MoG, they were all made clicks from toggles. You can either have Hurricane made a click or have it nerfed in others way. Trust me. You'd be even less happy with a click with a long recharge time.

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so...did you try any of these things?

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?

can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?