Steampunkette

Might lead me to wonder if there's a translational error, Right?

-Rachel-

Being "Behind" is generally a way of telling someone they're losing the race. In this particular case it was me letting you know what you were losing the race with my patience. You wore it out faster than I could give you more by being being insulting.

I'm open to discussion, to debate, to arguments. I'm not open to flawed arguments because they are flawed. That is what a Logical Fallacy is. A flawed argument.

The Math is accurate as presented. Give me new variables and I'll give you a new equation with more accurate results. However you'll just wind up with an even larger end ratio, not a smaller one. Unless, of course, you start offering wild numbers (like 10% of the total playerbase sharing the same name on one character or another)

I'm going to ask you a serious question, however, and I don't want you to take it as an insult, because it isn't intended as one. Is English a second language for you? It might be part of the problem we're having. A failure to communicate.

-Rachel-

Penny. Stop while you're behind.

You have repeatedly used the Slippery Slope logical fallacy. That's not my fault. I just pointed it out, then showed you how your statement was a "Slippery Slope".

I live in the same world you do. Don't make presumptions and ad-hominem attacks just because your argument doesn't function. The only presumption I made about you was based on your repeated use of the same broken and flawed logic twice. That shows me you don't understand -why- it's flawed, so I explained it.

I do see the consequences of actions. And your presumption that i don't is quite insulting. But you seem to assume that ALL potential negative consequences that could possibly ever happen -will- happen, and do so in a way that is visible to each and every single individual. Which, honestly, seems ridiculous.

Yes. There can be the rare circumstance where someone sees the name "Blaze" and says "Wow what a great character!" and makes another character named "Blaze". Does that mean that the change should not be put through?

Go back to the Pros and Cons list I made and Add to it. The Pros of changing the system, as it stands in that list, outweigh the Pros of keeping it.

I have conceded, already, that the math (while sound) has variables. that's -all- you're going to get me to concede on that point. Change the numbers up in any way you like, the totals will still result in it being incredibly rare to run into someone with the same name.

-Rachel-

I'm sorry you feel that way. However I did point out the various problems in his argument, then defined them for him, since he doesn't seem to understan them enough to avoid reusing them.

So you don't think it's a Slippery slope or hasty generalization to state that his friends would start copying the name he copied off of someone else for giggles? And it's not a Strawman to argue against my point by creating a situation which is parallel to it in order to argue against it, instead?

It could happen. I won't say it won't or couldn't. But it certainly would be a rare and strange event.

Based on the numbers provided (estimates of playerbase and a rather large portion of same-names) they are accurate and factual. In actual gameplay you'd probably wind up with even -less- overlap than 10% of all fire based characters using the same exact name. And since in -actual- gameplay you'd have larger amounts of people in a given time-zone on a given server, you'd have an even more remote chance of meeting someone with the same name. More likely if it were terribly common and almost impossibly remote if you chose a particularly obscure name.

Impossible. But, again, more common names will be met more often. I simply doubt they'll be common enough to make a big dent in the overall population to be widely visible to a given individual.

I honestly don't know... But good question!

Yes. Sometimes you will find exceptions to the "Rule" (I before E except after C, platypi, etc). And if you hunt them down you certainly will.

Don't do that... Golden Girl does that...

I imagine there might be a few "Unique Naming" threads, yes. though it would be a Relic from when players on City had Unique names, rather than an argument from frustrated players. Take a look at the forums of that "Other" MMO and do a search on Unique Naming conventions. They've had Non-Uniques since launch. What you'll find are a handful of "Oh noes! Mah Name!" posts and a pile of people surprised and happy to have non-unique names. And most of the "Oh Noes. Mah name!" posters are former (or current) City players.

And that all discussion on it ended just about a year ago...

-Rachel-

No... No... That's just stupidity.

Though... Actually... Yes. It -is- a logical fallacy. Several, in fact... That's both a Strawman fallacy AND a Slippery Slope fallacy combined with a Fallacy of Sweeping Generalization or perhaps a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization (kind of hazy in this instance)

Slippery Slope is "Event A MIGHT cause Event B. Event B MIGHT cause Event C. Therefore Event A WILL Cause Event C" Just because people can share names doesn't mean people will steal them.

The "People are like that" clause is where the stupidity lies, but also the Fallacy of Sweeping Generalizations. "If I do it so do other people because they are like me" in this case.

Though it could ALSO be a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization "The people I know do This so all people must do this, too"

As for the Straw Man, you're not responding to my argument, but setting up a slightly different but similar situation and then attacking it. Your group of people actively copying someone, as opposed to my random chance meeting. Then you're attacking the situation you set up, rather than my position.

So yes. Logical Fallacies. And it is kind of fun to say!

-Rachel-

Math is facts. Though yeah, Nethergoat is right that there are certain watering holes people tend to congregate at.

though even then the number of watering holes is large enough and the time it takes to drink short enough to avoid too much issue.

If you constantly hang out in the D, sure you've got a higher chance to meet someone with your name. But if he's referring to level trainers, markets, bank vaults, black markets, universities, and other locations, he's just adding more variables to the equation to make it more and more rare that you'll meet someone with your name AT one of those locations.

Ultimately, Unique naming doesn't work. If it did work there wouldn't have been hundreds of variants of this thread floating around the forums. This wouldn't be a constantly debated topic. And the Devs -wouldn't- have asked at PAX if it should change.

Yes. My numbers are based on variable starting points which can be altered with real data. However I'm confident that, with the actual data, they'd still show how rare the random event of running into another individual with your name is. Ask people who play that other MMO how often they run into people with their same name, and then realize they're in a single-server environment with about 5 different zones.

-Rachel-

If people on your global friends list roll a character which has your name that's between you and them. Same for your SG. If you want your SG to have a naming policy, that's fine! DON'T invite people who share a name. Big deal.

You have control over those variables. Control them. Don't act like it's beyond you and invalidates solid number crunching.

-Rachel-

Okay... So let's Double the number of "Blaze" characters in relation to the population of the server. Still 10% of a subset, but a -wider- subset. your chances, based on my calculations, just increased from 1 in 72,800 to 1 in 36,400!

And yes, there is a higher propensity of players in the American time-zones. but that doesn't change the -base- numbers, 10% of a subset of players. Whether there's 100,000 or 10,000 on at the same time, your chances are still around 36,400.

Of course, if you want to get TECHNICAL there's also subdivisions of zones to take into account, neighborhoods, streets, etc, which lowers your chance of seeing another individual. And players often have more than 12 character slots to play with... So that would further lower your chances, likely as not to far -below- 1 in 78,200. But I don't have all the data required to go into all the calculations, so I made approximations based on known variables and quantities. If you really wanted to get specific you'd have to get into speed calculations, travel times, and things of that nature which even further reduce your chances of ever meeting anyone who has your exact name.

-Rachel-

Here on the forums my voice is heard, that's true! But so many other's voices aren't heard. I'd want the same courtesy given to those at PAX given to me, and to all others. A Vote which isn't offered to all isn't democratic. At best it's Republic and at worst it's an Oligarchy.

As for the "Slippery Slope" fallacy.

A leads to B leads to C. Is correct.
A Must Lead to C. Is incorrect.

By declaring that putting this vote into effect will "Open a Pandora's Box" of other votes -having- to be put through you skip over the part where the Devs initiated the process. They have the decision over whether something is voted on.

Not everything is a fallacy. But the ones that are clearly defined fallacies definitely are...

-Rachel-

*Edit* Heck! Change three words in your sentence. Pandora's box to Slippery Slope and opening to On. Or are you leaning more towards the "Can of Worms"? In which case it's still a logical fallacy, since opening up the vote on a Dev-initiated topic does not create serious problems in large quantities.

Having no option to add to the vote makes things a lot easier. It's almost like voting for something on a REAL ballot, isn't it? Or are you someone who likes to write in "Mickey Mouse" on the ballot?

If 10% of the total population voted it would still be a greater number than those who had a voice at PAX and I would be satisfied. If 99% said No to the change, I'd be content in knowing that I got a vote. MY voice was heard.

And if 90% of the playerbase isn't happy of a change the had the option of stopping or pushing through if it fails, they've got the same right to complain that voters do when the President they don't like gets into office even though they didn't bother to vote for the one they DO like. Tough noogies, you had your chance and you didn't take it.

Ultimately, what I'm more concerned about, is getting the chance to have my voice heard. They asked at Pax and a small group of people got the chance to say yea or nay. I don't want their yea or nay, I want -MY- yea or nay. Hence the suggestion for the vote through electronic means. It gives EVERYONE the chance to vote, even if they don't take it.

What Pandora's box? The Devs actually polled players at a Convention about this. This is something that is, apparently, on their docket or on the table for discussion. It wasn't a question asked by a player, it was a question the Devs asked. They have chosen to invest a portion of the decision making process in the players. They don't ever have to do it, again.

Of course, if they did, they've got the ballot-tallying webpage created already!

Though this entire argument is moot since you're basing it off a logical fallacy (Slippery Slope)

You make everything sound so Argumentative and Complex. No player will ever be content!

-Rachel-

Almost a decent comparison...

See... We understand a -lot- about weather not everything, but a lot.

Numbers are fixed. Finite. They do not change. The number 1 will always be a value greater than 0 and less than 2, for example. There will never be a situation where the number 1 is less than 0 or greater than 2. But a change in air-pressure or wind can push a storm along and change a prediction from late to early. Can't be helped, you can never know all the factors.

1 is always less than 2.

I can give you the specific odds of meeting another player with the same name on the same server on the same day at the same time in the same zone. You might run into the guy, Sure!

But every day I play I see at least 1 person with a hacked name. Sometimes More than 1, but never less than 1. How do I know? Because it grates at me, every time. However, if you truly are creative and awesomely inventive and not lazy, you further reduce your chances of seeing another player with your name to 0 or, if not, below 1. My value is always 1 or greater. The only way to change my value is to change the system. Which, if you aren't lazy or unimaginative, should have no effect on you.

-Rachel-

I'm suggesting the simplest and best method to find out who wants what, and you're fighting me over the most minute details of democracy?

Even if only 30% of the playerbase -bothers- to vote that's still far more people voting than the ones at PAX. It's a far larger number of players who have the option.

No. I don't think having multiple accounts should be a key to voting multiple times. So I'll offer a more secure, but still not foolproof (since nothing ever is) method of voting.

A Webpage. The link for which is sent to the e-mail address of every account which is currently active or was active within the past year.

You use your account details to log onto the web page, then vote in one of two boxes separated by paragraphs of text. The former, Unique Naming, explains they'll keep the naming system as is, the latter explains what and why they would change it from the current system.

Click the box, press "Okay" get a warning that you only get one vote, click okay, the web-page registers your IP address and locks you out of further voting and it also registers your account as having voted (keeping you from voting multiple times on the same account)

Sure! Some people could use other accounts to vote by heading over to a family member's house, or resetting their IP for a new one, or register a ton of accounts the week before the vote and then running around town voting from various libraries and WiFi access points.

However, those people willing to go out of their way to cheat the vote are going to do so. The best we can do is make it uncomfortable for them to do so. Otherwise they'll just find other ways to circumvent any method we block them with.

The website logs all votes and tallies the score up on it's own, no need for a ton of wasted developer time combing through hundreds or thousands of e-mails. No option to add "Yes But" to the ballot. A Simple Majority wins (1 vote is enough to decide it)

Announce the vote a month in advance, give players a weekend in which to place their votes, tally it up. Done.

-Rachel-

I've already done the math on it, Diggis, slightly earlier in the thread. If a full 10% of players with the same primary power picked the same name you'd have a 1 in 72,800 chance of running into them if they spread out, equally, among the time-zones and so did everyone else, and everyone was equally spread among the servers.

If you alter the base ratios you alter the results, but it's -always- going to be small so long as players tend to name themselves after their powers and you offer up a fairly reasonable number for the percentage of same-names.

And that 1 in 72,800 doesn't include players using instanced mission maps, which are the primary method of teaming/fighting/playing City of Heroes. So you actually have a far -more- remote chance of seeing them.

And that argument only REALLY works for really common choices. Use your vaunted creativity and keep coming up with your awesome names noone else would ever think of. That further reduces your chances to 0. Since noone else would -ever- think of a name you've so cleverly devised with your vaunted creativity.

Is your immersion in having the one name to rule them all more important than everyone else's immersion in seeing Blaze- Blaze., BIaze, -Blaze, Bla-ze, and Blase? Your chances of having your immersion broken are, as previously shown, minuscule, minute, and remote. While this system -is- in effect, those of us who despise seeing hacked names are constantly having our immersion broken.

Please, add to this list in subsequent posts.

Pros of Unique Name
Characters are more concretely "Owned" by the person who has their name.
Immersion Saved for those who concretely "Own" a name.
No system changes required to maintain this status.
Impossible to "Grief" using someone else's name (though costume, bio, and near-name is fine)


Cons for Unique names
Players are forced to change from the name they had in mind.
Immersion breaking "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names.
Is another hurdle to jump when a server merge occurs (either forced or in a paradigm shift)
Some players give up on character concepts because they can't get a name they enjoy.
Cross-server teaming is impossible without changes to the system.

Pros of Non-Unique Names
Freedom to name your character as you see fit.
Sharp decline in "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names, leading to less immersion breaking
Less player frustration at the naming screen
Players can still be creative to get a name noone (or nearly noone) has.
More time spent playing the game than sitting at the name screen typing synonyms (total, not individual)
Less player-drop of concept characters due to names being available.
One less step to make when a "Serverless" environment or single-server environment becomes the norm.
Helps cross-server teaming attempts by making names no longer a hurdle.

Cons of Non-unique Naming
Requires a coding change
Immersion breaking at the rare times when two people with the same name meet (if they even care)
Removes the concrete feeling that one "Owns" a name.
Without monitoring or global-ties, could lead to griefing under false-identities.


So please. ADD to this list, show me more Pros and Cons to support your side, whether it's mine or not. I will obviously more clearly see the pros of the Non-Unique names and the Cons of the Unique ones, but help me see the other Pros and Cons, please!

Unique Pros: 4
Unique Cons: 5
Non-Unique Pros: 8
Non-Unique Cons: 4

-Rachel-

Kinda! Only this "arbitrary" unlock fits the game's storyline, overall. Since only Praetorians and Primals who go to Praetoria can have the massive bulk of the costume pieces, while those who haven't gone yet can salvage a few pieces here or there, or buy them off Vanguard/Longbow/Arachnos.

Basically, if it -has- to be an Unlock (And from the Dev's track record, it will) I'd rather it be an -easy- unlock. Rather than Praetorian Merits or the reward from a TF.

-Rachel-

Thank goodness! Here I was worried you'd dismiss my points along with the points of those who were dismissive.

Or, if not you, at least others.

Though I'd also like to point out that, when the devs asked, they asked a TINY group representing the population of the game, which isn't an appropriate sampling at all. Even the forum population is hardly an adequate sample-size for such a poll.

I'd like to propose, however, a different solution to the issue. A massive e-mail to all currently active accounts for a vote. It would, quite decisively, clear any question the Devs might have up nigh-instantaneously.

-Rachel-

"It's okay to share names, but only if you share them with yourself."

-Rachel-

Actually, the closest thing I've offered to a "Dismissal" is showing how a single person's need for a Unique Name infringes on other people's need to have the name for themselves, as well.

I did this by pointing out how one person's "Immersion breaking" name-duplication becomes many people's immersion breaking name-faking.

And then there is the argument about being creative and inventive, which is just a -huge- load of bovine scat, since it's not a matter of creativity, but who was here, first.

-Rachel-

And to many of us seeing "Frum The Depths "Fr0m Teh D3pths" and other such names are far more immersion breaking.

Especially since, as I've shown mathematically, your chance of running into a SINGLE person who shares your name is remote, much less 2 others.

Meanwhile EVERYONE else who sees "Frum Teh D3pths" will have their immersion broken.

-Rachel-

Fuer being German, rather than English. Did you even try the English words for fire or heat?

Most new players on an American server wil try to use English words for their characters.

-Rachel-

In a Fantasy world MMO a collection of consonants with the occasional vowel (or apostrophe, if you're a dark elf!) is a fine name.

In a Superhero Genre MMO superhero names are generally made up of actual words strung together, generally representative of the character's powers, origin, goals, or something important to the character.

Your argument is invalid since the genre (and thus naming convention) is different.

-Rachel-

Implying they might want a specific name for their character and be disappointed when they don't immediately get it?

That's not Lazy. That's not knowing the first name that comes to mind is taken.

If they spend the first two hours running through adjectives of "Fire" with nothing else -then- they're being lazy and unimaginative (according to many who wish to uphold the current paradigm).

Making it possible for new players to get what they want when they want it, when it has no other affect on gameplay (faster leveling, exploitative mechanics, etc) isn't a bad thing. Nor does it require them to be lazy or unimaginative.

It just requires them to want a character name which is taken.

-Rachel-

To make it easier for players to get the name they want for their characters.

Specifically, new players. Who might otherwise get frustrated at the lack of "Good Names" that are free. Two YEARS ago I saw a player on Virtue with a character named "NoGoodNamesLeft" or something similar to it.

-Rachel-

Exactly. Hence the further division down to .25 in 455. Since they've got 12 characters to choose from with a potential for up to 32 characters. And I didn't even get INTO zone divisions, either.

So while there might be the .25 in 455/hour chance, you've got to spread that .25 across 19 "City" Zones, 11 Hazard Zones, 4 PVP Zones, 2 versions of Oroborous, 4 Co-Op zones, and 4 Praetorian zones (6 if you divide the underground into sectors)

Let's skip the PVP zones and Oroborous. .00625 to 455 odds. That's 1 in 72,800 for those of you playing at home, assuming that only 455 people are on Virtue in a given hour.

And do you want to include instanced mission maps in that as well? How many are active at a given time? I'll ring the math up for you really quickly.

-Rachel-

Chances are... low?

So you routinely see 445 people in an hour on Virtue? Chances are -incredibly- remote, to the point of being nearly non-existant. And that's assuming that a full 10% of people with similar powers pick the same name! You probably wouldn't see anything NEARLY so drastic (maybe a 2-3% recurrence, MAYBE). It's getting close to Lotto Drawing odds, to be honest...

-Rachel-