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Quote:... Actually that spells Desperation. But it's synonymous!Originally Posted by BenRGamer
D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-I-O-N!
What's that spell? Golden Cole.
-Rachel- -
Quote:Because it's impossible that the family members were Resistance, or helped the Resistance, and executed for their crimes, right Golden Cole? The Resistance would neeeeeever lie to -you-....Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So how does having your loved ones taken away just because you spoke out against the dictatorship count as "deserving it"?
Heh... I love it when she makes the appeals to emotion, rather than a logical or well reasoned debate, don't you?Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Plus, even genuine criminals don't deserve to be tortured and murdered - the very fact that there are torture chambers and slaughter houses under the PPD buildings is a crime against humanity.
-Rachel- -
Shhhhhhh... Don't bother to tell her that everything she just used as "Evidence" is things the Resistance members say... To prove that the Resistance doesn't Lie!
And the badges don't tell you that the people didn't deserve it, Golden Cole. Just that it happened, no background, no information. just "It happened here"
-Rachel- -
Quote:Sounds more like the Electoral college at best, or the illusion of democracy at the worst.Originally Posted by Righter
Ahh, but now we're entering the evilness of deciding who is and isn't okay for the people to elect, and that doesn't sound like democracy to me
Not only do you not -have- a vote, you're tricked into -thinking- you've got a vote, so you don't rebel.
-Rachel-
*Edit* I would have said "Revolt" but Golden Cole already is revolting. -
Golden Cole's moral system is AMURRICA!
-Rachel- -
Quote:But that happened on the... what... third page? At this point we're just trying to dye the whole outfit "Wink" in order to cover up the stain.Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
*sigh*
Once a thread has been covered in a steaming pile of winkies, no amount of dry-cleaning will ever get the stain out.
-Rachel- -
Quote:Immoral? But they democratically decided it was okay.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Which makes them immoral - but they don't murder the families too, do they?
-Rachel- -
Quote:There's no mass murder.Originally Posted by Righter
There's no mass murder at random.
Except for the Crusaders.
-Rachel- -
Don't try to reason with her. You'll only provoke more cliched hackneyed slogans and facial ticks.
-Rachel- -
Quote:MmHmm.. Yup. That's about right... Maybe... OH! I know what's missing.Originally Posted by Golden Cole
I am a Massive Tool with nothing constructive to add to this conversation. I will only spout the same lines of Bullspit that I've been spouting since the first days of beta, because I have no understanding of any viewpoint other than the most narrow possible explanation of reality. I will swallow the Resistance Lies without question and ignore any evidence to the contrary, like a good little Sturmengruppen
-Rachel-Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Cole
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James... You're applying external opinion to the game's situation...
The game is a dictatorship with hints at Tyranny. There are some Orwellian Themes, but no in-game proof that most of what you're saying is true.
The "Thought Crime" idea. If Thought Crime was enough to warrant execution there wouldn't -be- a resistance. They'd all be executed before they decided to reach out to the other malcontents. Or are we to believe that the psychics in the Resistance are able to shield the minds of people they don't know are thinking about becoming resistance members -before- the Seers (Who are actively scanning for seditious thought, according to the thought-crime theory) realize they're there?
If seditious thought were enough of a crime to warrant being "Disappeared" then the Resistance would have been crushed a decade ago. They wouldn't have been able to recruit new members, since the government would be executing anyone with the spark of sedition, and the members they HAVE would be killed in duty (mostly by being terrorists)
It -cannot- work like that, since there -is- a resistance. Ergo thought crime is not how it works, but an assumption the players like to think of because they're reading into it.
Further evidence that they're not hunting seditious -thought- is the statements of the Seers "I'm sensing hostility toward my person, Citizen. And will react accordingly" or when you're told the Seers have detected panic and fear and you're sent in to save the people who are panicked and terrified. Hostility, Panic, and Fear are all -emotional- responses, not logical ones.
By all means, refute me! But use evidence from the game and not assumption.
As for my characterization of Dictatorships. I have lived in one before. I was in Thailand for a month, during which I did some of the "Touristy" things, but I spent most of my time talking with people who had been living in or visiting Thailand for years.
In a month of talking to doctors, hotel owners, shop keepers, street vendors, and temple caretakers I came to understand they were not having their rights trampled. Mind you this was near Christmas of 2006, while the entire nation was under Martial Law. The people of Thailand adored their Monarch. not out of Fear, but of genuine respect and love. Why?
Because as a young man he went around the nation with a camera hanging around his neck, talking to his people, learning what they need and want, helping to bring modern farming techniques to rural communities, or making grand donations to charities. When you see people on Thai TV networks commemorating him or honoring him it's -genuine- not some fake lip-service.
So I've seen how a Dictatorship can be a good thing for a nation. And it's evident that Cole -does- have elected representatives chosen by the people. Otherwise Luke Larson wouldn't be a politician looking to curry favor. The Magisters wouldn't have different leanings. And a Constitutional Monarch can intervene, as well, within certain limits. So Cole over-riding some decisions the Magisters bring before him isn't tyrannical.
And a lack of Freedom of Speech? Protestors in Nova Praetoria. Magisters with political leanings toward the Resistance.
-Rachel- -
Quote:In your Mafia analogy the shopkeeper who was threatened by the mafia is no longer just chasing after the mafia's family.Originally Posted by james_joyce
To go back to my mafia analogy, if I were to demand, with threat of force, that the family of the mafia stop supporting their family's mafia activities, this is not morally the same as the mafia demanding protection money from local store owners. One is straightforwardly aggressive, the other is in the pursuit of self defense though the means are morally dubious.
He's also going to the shop next door and threatening to kill them, unless they fight the mafia with him.
There is nothing just about that. He's not just attacking people related to the crime, he's attacking people who didn't know there was a crime committed and have no connection to the crime.
-Rachel- -
Actually, Joyce's description of the mafia was fairly good, almost. But there's a better description for it.
You live in a Tyranny, where for the most part the government leaves you the hell alone. It's only when you commit an offense that anything is actually done (maybe a small offense compared to the punishment, but an offense none the less) only then does the government become tyrannical toward -you-.
Fighting against the Government is a group of people who have committed offenses against the government and whom were punished disproportionately to their crime. Some are fighting the people who came after them (Wardens) and some are fighting anyone and anything in their path (Crusaders)
The common man who hasn't been oppressed by the government in a way he feels is unjust is approached by the Resistance. his options are to Rebel against what he feels isn't an unjust government, or die.
Yes. That is Tyranny. That is oppression and brutality. In that situation the Resistance are just as evil and cruel as the individuals they seek to destroy. But the Resistance takes it a step further than the Government.
The Government kills people over offenses committed against their brutal laws. if you break the law you're in trouble. If you don't: No worries.
The Resistance considers you to have automatically broken every law the moment they join the Resistance. You aren't human. You are a sheep. You would be happy to die to serve their ends. And they will gladly give you that death, even though you haven't done a damned thing to anyone.
-Rachel- -
See? You can't even offer that kind of idiot common decency, she just threw it in my face instantly, even though I was trying to reign in the negativity aimed in her direction. Makes me want to toss up another Propaganda post like the couple I used in the Beta...
In fact... I think I will!
Quote:Now drink your Enriche and get some sleep. It's going to be a long, long day tomorrow.Originally Posted by Loyalist Propaganda
Terrorists and Monsters, the lot of them. You can't -talk- to these animals, they only know to refute logic and reason with what they must think are "Snappy" one-line comebacks. This Golden Squirrel is the pinnacle of the Resistance's willingness to discuss what is happening in our fair city, and you can see just how willing she is. Impertinent, aggressive, rude, and unabashedly juvenile, she almost seems to have a facial tick with how often she winks.
Offer her a reasoned debate and she'll call you a Nazi in one of many ways, or attempt to reduce the great personal sacrifice many loyal praetorians make in becoming Seers or sending their psychic children to the state for the care and support they couldn't get in the common world. The Resistance is uncaring of the plight of Praetoria, and are greedy for power of their own. See how they seek to spread fear among the populace by attacking, not the police or government installations, but hospitals filled with the infirm, or office buildings where you work.
If the Resistance truly wanted peace or justice they'd certainly turn themselves in as Enemies of the State and rely on the magnanimous leniency of our beloved Emperor. I'm sure that if all of these seditious elements just stood up in the Magisterium to have their voices heard, rather than bombing our public venues or trying to rewire the clockwork into walking time bombs they'd have had their grievances tended by the Magisters and Emperor Cole.
But no. Rather than seek a peaceful resolution to their grievances they attack us, the humble and common people of Praetoria, eager to inflict pain and misery on those who have never once in their lives wronged another being. They hate us for our prosperity, for our comforts, and for our freedoms. They envy our joy, but rather than take joy into themselves they would seek to destroy what we have achieved.
The Sonic Barriers that protect us. the Clockwork that Serve us. The Seers that monitor us. And the Police who guard us. To these cowardly terrorists I speak of horror and death, pain and torment. But to those well-adjusted Praetorians who hold the lives of their family dear I speak of safeguards and wards. So twisted are the minds of these Seditious elements that they seek to vilify the virtuous and vindicate the vile.
But we know the truth. We know that beyond the barriers lays an evil far stronger than any of us, even together. A Force which outnumbers us in the millions that will not rest until it sees Paradise burned. Not content with these horrible forces, the Terrorists seek to add to the numbers arrayed against us. And so, again, we turn to our protectors for succor and defense from the most insidious foe any man can face: his neighbor. hiding among the citizenry are criminal minds so warped and depraved that our hospitals are their targets. Even before the Hamidon War such an act would be an atrocity. Yet these people. These... Beasts would commit it not on foreign soil.
But upon their neighbors. Upon their Peers.
I fear for the safety of Praetoria, now. From the evils it must face from within and without. Obey the Law, friends. Follow the rules and stick close to order and truth. Because the Chaos and their Lies will be the end of humanity. Not as we know it.
But simply the end of humanity.
-Rachel- -
Hmmm.... I'm not sure if I like the Loyalist Icon better than the Loyalist tag... Far less feminine, but still nice...
Plus it doesn't say "Loyalist"... Maybe I'll tinker with that a bit.
Anywho, yeah. I don't support the Jackbooted thuggery of the Stormtroopers or the Wild Rioting of the Terrorists. What I'd -like- I can't have, so I'll generally side with the one which leads to most people surviving the inevitable conflict.
-Rachel- -
Quote:Eep! Go bed!Originally Posted by BenRGamer
It's 3 am. Corollaries and word twisting stop at about 2 am for me.
... It's almost 2am, here, too.... geeze... what the heck is wrong with me? Last night I hit the hay at 4am and was up by 8am, and I didn't sleep or nap at all today...
-Rachel- -
Quote:You kinda missed the second paragraph which is a corollary. >.> You're rebelling against the tyranny of the people trying to bully you intro rebelling against someone else. I was agreeing with you, but twisting the wording just a little bit to fulfill the hypocritical device that Golden Cole uses.Originally Posted by BenRGamer
It makes no difference what the motivation behind it is, if someone points a gun to your head and tells you 'Serve Cole or die,' that's tyrannical.
If that same person had said, instead, 'Rebel against Cole or die,' it's just as tyrannical, and that's almost the entire Crusader recruitment plan. If you don't join them they will kill you.
And that's why I don't get the complete and utter blindness of some people--I never said Cole was good, only that he was keeping the people alive, for the most part.
And I said that he should be taken out, when the situation is more stable.
Personally I think the best way to take him out is lure him and his invasion force away from Praetoria and any Primal Cities and take him out there--no massive collateral damage.
Besides, since they've already got the stuff modeled and have done similar things before, I see a new 'Praetorian Invasion' zone event on the horizon, so, yeah, no one's gonna stop it until after it happens.
-Rachel- -
Quote:I couldn't find one of any "Responsible" characters in the same art style.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You mean the picture of the blind, mindless slave?
Then again... I can think of another blind, mindless slave to the decisions of society...
Plus the Loyalist and Resistance tags came out before anyone knew much of anything about the Seers.
Did I mention that there aren't that many loyalist tags to choose from?
And I notice you didn't respond to the bulk of the well reasoned, rational, and relatively "Moderate" post you snipped that single line out of...
Typical Golden Cole tactic.
-Rachel- -
Quote:Because if you're rebelling you're rebelling against a Tyrant.Originally Posted by BenRGamer
GG still hasn't explained how 'Rebel or Die' is any less tyrannical than 'Serve or Die'
Of course, then the question becomes whether you're rebelling against Emperor Cole (in which case "Yay! The Resistance loves you!") or the Resistance for trying to blow up your family, friends, and likely as not yourself (In which case you're a jackbooted stormtrooper and not a real person)
The problem with some members of the "loyalists are all evil" crowd *cough Venture Golden Cole cough cough* is that they tend to only use situations and background when it suits their ideals. Namely supporting the Resistance. But they tend to accidentally overlook when people are pushed by the Resistance into supporting Praetoria (being loyal to the people, not Cole). Those people suddenly become slaving murdering baby killing cat drowning puppy kicking stormtroopers shouting "Sieg Heil" to Cole.
There's a huge difference there that they cannot and will not see, because accepting that personal motivation plays into the Loyalist paths, rather than blind thuggery, makes the Warden path a little darker than they think it should be. It's easier to blanket label everyone on the other side of the battlefield with an easy to remember tag-line than it is to accept individuals with different beliefs and goals on the other side of the fight.
Meanwhile I'm only too happy to agree that the Wardens are trying to do the Right Thing, more or less. I just disagree with their methods (Starting Riots by spreading misinformation and half-truths). Now this isn't to say I like the Loyalist's methods, either (allowing slavery and brutality to occur) it's just that it generally results in fewer deaths at the end of the day.
But in the end; The heroically minded (if not heroic) members of both factions head to Paragon with a similar goal: Depose Cole. The Wardens want to tear everything down to the foundation and start over which will probably result in Praetoria being destroyed. The Responsible Loyalists want to take out Cole, specifically, without endangering too many of their fellow countrymen in the process.
Which one will get it done with the fewest casualties? I'm betting on the Responsibles, myself. And that's how I can justify having the Loyalist tag in my signature. I might not like the methods of the government, but neither do I like the Resistance's methods. At the end of the day it's the result you have to pick. Rioting and infighting followed by brutal crackdowns (Warden choice of information first, action second) or a knock down drag out with Cole and his Oligarchs resulting in their defeat with some damage done to Praetoria (Responsible choice of action against Cole without informing the populace until after it's done)
If the Wardens succeed in their goal (Telling everyone the truth, turning the people against Cole, then taking him out) Many people will die as the PPD/Seers/Etc tear into the populace, not to mention Cole and his Oligarchs as well, fighting against entire groups of civilians and commiting mass slaughter.
If the Responsibles Succeed in their goal, Cole is defeated/Dead, some people will get hurt in the actual -fighting- as it happens by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but there won't be nation-wide riots at least until after he's taken down, and at that point you've got a new super-powerful being (or group of beings) who can intimidate the PPD into putting their weapons down.
Minimum collateral damage is best, in my opinion.
-Rachel- -
The Etoille: A Night on Bald Mountain by Modest Mussorgsky
Praetoria: Bird and the Worm (instrumental version) by Used.
Paragon City: Duck Tales Moon Zone, Epic Remix by Narg
-Rachel- -
Yeah... Eiko, I think that's going a lot too far...
Pointing out her similarities to Cole or teasing her with a nickname is one thing... Making her out to be frigid and enamored of a videogame monster... Might be a little much.
But that last line? That was out of line.
-Rachel-
*Edit* Did I just stun everyone by -not- being a vindictive witch? >.>
... Sorry. I'll try harder, next time. It just felt a little too harsh to me, where as jokey nicknames were more lighthearted. I may not like the girl... -
Quote:And bombing hospitals, too, right? Nuking Cities? Starting riots that will get innocent people killed is also totally okay... Right Golden Cole? Right?Originally Posted by Golden Girl
When they can't fight back, yes.
Hurting stormtroopers during a battle when you're trying to free the world from their tyranny is totally ok.
In her mind it's fine to support a group of people who are committing terrorist acts and blowing up innocent people so long as you're fighting against people who kill terrorists and people suspected of terrorism...
.... Wait...
-Rachel- -
Quote:Fighting Oppressors? Sure. I can get behind that!Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, you can't really throw off fascist oppression without hurting some of the oppressors - it's very unlikely they'd all surrender without a fight.
Bombing Hospitals and Nuking 2 whole cities all of which are filled with innocents? No. I can't get behind that.
-Rachel- -
Quote:That would be Coercion through Pain.Originally Posted by Golden Cole
Hurting people to make them do or say what you want them to do or say is the same, regardless of how you hurt them.
Beating or torturing someone to make a confession would be Coercion. you're not getting them to confess to a crime they feel guilty about, you're forcing them to say what you want them to say.
Smacking some terrorist in an interrogation chamber while asking him where the rest of the terrorist cell he's a part of is hiding isn't forcing him to day something you prepared or want him to say. It's getting information and it's a long standing tradition in plenty of nations (including the US!) which is only recently being mitigated to any degree.
Now inflicting -severe- pain or suffering (long term pain) would be torture. But punching a guy would be Brutality. There is a difference and I'd prefer if you didn't mistake the two.
Neither is a "Good" thing, Golden Cole, but one is significantly worse than the other.
-Rachel- -
Quote:I honestly don't believe a word Pell says. And it shocks me that you can support such an awful man.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Officer Pell also says "do you know how many people Cole has killed on a weekly basis, just to protect his utopia?" during Cleopatra's arc - which sounds like there may be more than one or two being slaughtered by the fascists each week.
Apply Occam's razor to his situation. A group of cops just randomly put him onto the ground and kept going until he couldn't walk, then took his wife and child for execution, leaving him on the ground until Medical picked him up?
He, himself, states that they were out after curfew. Wouldn't the cops have taken him someplace private if they were going to torture him, rather than do it in the streets? They have interrogation chambers, after all.
And taking the wife and child but leaving him, then executing -them- as enemies of the state? Is it possible that his wife and potentially child ("Child" meaning offspring, not 8-year-old) were working with the Resistance Terrorists or Syndicate?
His story is full of holes, and he punctuates it by going to a public place and killing a man in front of his family.
He's a monster, and likely either ignorant of the truth about his family (Cleopatra managed to hide her allegiance from her boyfriend) or complicit in their crimes and lying to cover it up.
-Rachel-
*Edit* And let's not forget his work with the Hospital Bombing plot. Is that the act of a man eager to preserve the memory of his wife and daughter? To murder hundreds of people in an instant? No. He's a madman and a Crusader. You can't trust a word he says.