SinergyX_EU

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Now I noticed you said the Elec and Fire holds would suit as a primary hold power. Are they better than my current hold, Tesla Cage? Higher chance of successfully holding a target?
About the shields, are they good? Would they really be worth picking? Which brings me on to my next question, the cone attack that Elec has. I noticed on ParagonWiki it said Ranged(Cone) or something similar. Wouldn't that mean it is a cone attack I fire from a distance, like the Energy/ L6 attack?

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You like the word appealing is it?
The cone is indeed the same as nrg, or fire breath, or frost breath etc etc. The hold is a standard hold, it looks like the 2nd power from elec/ with a goodish DoT damage. The main reason for a 2nd hold, you can hold bosses (boss need 2x hold from a blaster).

Shields, iirc the numbers slotted:
Elec 20% SL/19% elec
Fire 20% SL/19% fire /8% ice.

Oh and EMP doesnt do any damage at all. It just is a massive long duration stun PBAoE. For comparing, a 3slotted version with PowerBoost (nrg secondair) can stun mobs in hollow long enough for me to go get a smoke, get a coffee and go toilet. When i got back... they still stunned.

The exact numbers i dont know but belive it was stated as 'moderate' damage, does seem to do a 2x damage. Surely with a BU/aim and a 2nd cone it will do pretty decent damage. The animation is the same as <whats the ladies name> temp summon from Croatoa. She holds her hands up, you see lightning going from her hards.

Its kinda like.. what do you need, what do you want and what do you like

Elec and Fire would suit your primairy hold power, making it a boss holder. Both come with a shield, elec having SL/elec and fire goes SL/fire/bitty-ice. As extra elec has a cone damage, not that high damage and needs position. Last is EMP, a massive aoe stun power that drains (3 endmod slotted) all min/lts and half boss end straight away. Also has -regen but only 15 secs. Recharge is pathtic long and you get a 10 second -recovery (no crash).
Fire goes Bonfire, wich you might know from /fire, a massive knockback thingie. Final is rise of the phoenix, quite fast recharge but not that great damage. Your private rez power so to call.

Force goes Temp.inv (duh), PFF (yeeey) and Force of Nature. This last baby hits (slotted) cap resist on SL (with TempInv) and high resist on the rest (ex psi) Its kinda like a 2 minutes i can punch whatever i like, since it has a good +recovery too. Crash however is annoying, full end drain. The final is Repulsion bubble, the most (imho) lousy power of APP's. A slow tick knockback that even highly slotted end-mod can drain your entire end in seconds.

Final, Ice. A SL def/ice resist shield (ok), snowstorm (a bitty high end AoE toggle that does -50% slow/recharge), very strong power. Then the target (big) AoE sleep power, wich i quite like but teamwise its really not usefull. Then the 'WOOOO' power, hibernate. 3 slotted recharge its up quite fast, you get 30sec (max) invurnarable (hmm..) and get high regen and recovery. Once done, you break free fully recovered. The master of panic powers.

Munition, ranged hold, ranged (big) aoe sleep, a passive SL (8%) shield and a target AoE snipe power. Downside.. redraw. (as 3 draw gun). The target AoE snipe is actualy quite strong, about 80%ish of a NRG snipe power. Does high knockback, longish recharge. I wouldnt recommend this if you are not AR, but only if you would like the snipe power.

So i dont know what your build is like, asume you drain masive on elec/ then run in to finish everything with some PBAoE /fire spammage. That line i would say elec, ice or energy.

Elec mainly due a good shield and the EMP, combined with elec/ it fully drains everything and does high -recovery. Compensate the -recovery with consume, mobs wont do much with EMP running. The ranged hold combined with elec/ hold for boss hold. Perhaps skip the cone power, do a run on Testserver if you might like it (as it has drain element).

Ice basicly due snowstorm and hibernate. Snowstorm can slowdown mobs massive (woo for slotted), add the def shield (okish) you can go melee a bit saver. Things go wrong? Pop hibernate.

Force.. ya well, Force of Nature basicly, your 2 minutes of glory. FoN crashed? Pop 1 blue and hit PFF, safe to get out without problems.

So run out to testserver, pick each set once and see what you like. Sometimes you need some extra slotting in it to make it fully usefull, but hope you get a ok view from this

Cant agree more with Badger here, freeze ray is what ice makes ice blasts. The wheels of a car that makes it go rolling

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And concerning mercs: Please don't mix 'starter-friendly' with 'strong'. The fact that they deal miserable damage against so many foes is totally independent from starter-friendliness. Ironically, you were the one recommending mercs to Psi_Storm.

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And once again, i think you should start reading abit better. I mostly quote parts that i reply to, but as it reply your story as whole, i just quote it as 'big text' to prevent nasty huge quotes wich only make up lousy page filling. And if i would have put it down as a flame bait, i would have replied in a way different mather.

Ironicly, Psi_Storm stated he was FF, my first choice is Bots. 2nd of that, i clearly that he will be massive lacking power if he pick other then bots, mercs. Only reason is picking a set that suits FF, wich makes all things easy if mobs go 99% ranged.
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Other then that, i would say Mercs due fully ranged (but u lack massive on damage) or ninja's with stacked defence.

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Your whole story came down from a 'necros sux bigtime' to a story 'necro are worse then bots'. Either you teamed with some serious bad necro players, or you just dont like them. I highly doubt if you ever seen a necro/dark in action, i think there is no other set doing more mez in a row then that set actualy can (not mentioning a completly flored acc). Outside that, the 2 upgrades pets can get are next to ninja the fastest casting ones. Not a airdrop-pick-itup or a upgrade-machine out of the floor that takes seconds to get the pet moving again.. instant upgrade and ready to rock. And a repair versus extract soul.. i know wich one does a way better job.

If you dont like necro, fine. If you love bots, fine. But they are nothing less or worse then any other, the only one i pick out of the set is mercs. And for that whole story, i refer you to my 'why not to pick merc/ta' topic a long time ago.

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big story

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I kinda dissagree on most parts. First bots are highly known to be 'blockers', mostly due their huge size they are the ones blocking of doors once a mob gets out of LoS.

Running pets after a scared mob is an AI issue, no where near anything to do with necro's. I currently have all pets, vary from 41 merc, 37 necro, 36 bots and 24 thugs, i dont like ninja. From those i can say, each has a pro and a con, but necro really isnt worse then other pets or a bad 'starter-friendly' set. But overall, Necro gives me the best feeling of actualy controlling something.

Runnaway pets are among all pets, sound is just something extra to deal with. A good MM keep eye on every pet he has, pets dont make the MM. Specialy MM's that just do a goto_all will face 'runaways' alot, since they dont order pets to attack a certain mob. Great example is skyraiders with they TP power, if you dont pay attention it goes wrong big time. And then it really doesnt mather what set you have.

But mercs are known to be 1 of the worst pets around, wich are 99% ranged, so in your view the best 'starter-friendly' set. However, its 1 of the most less played set of all.

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Well, I am not too fond of Zombies. A Zombie-MM has to be constantly monitoring his pets' movements to avoid drawing aggro from behind the moon...

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Actualy Ninja's are worst at this issue. Since 99% of their strength is melee, their woozie AI.

Necro is great in both sides, zombies having the mini-AoE vomit, Knights having 2 ranged (basicly the 2 first powers of dark) and Lich has cone, cone fear, range hold, range heal, cone immobilize, normal range attack. This combined, they can do a insane -acc flooring nearly every mob's accuracy. As long you let them start attacking from range, they often stay ranged attacking. As i have the 'ranged' pets too, mercs, i even dare to say they even do better ranged then mercs who are 99% ranged (way too much DoT).

Yet, move the knights melee range, they grab they sword and increase your damage output insane. Double crit headsplitter can nearly 1shot a +1 boss and their self heal. Add zombie vomit, self heal, and even melee they can do awsome damage.

My opinion they are the most avarage range/melee pets, dispite their lack of resist wich compensate their -acc dark attacks and selfheal.

Basicly you cant calculate a SDPS, you forget the 'unknown factor', being the mob and its power preference. Take a rikti boss, ranged it does okish nrg damage, but melee he might grab his surfboard and can do a ouchy SL bladeswipe. This applies to nearly any mob, as its very random in what order mobs do their powers and exactly when. (refer to MM pet AI, good example). Stupid mobs like helions (baseball bat wack) are doable, but once you get to mobs with multiple attacks of different strength, imho its kinda impossible to calculate a SDPS. Added that the base tohit of a even minion is already 50%, thus you already are working in a 'lucky factor' area.

I never liked and never will like DPS terms. Too many factors playing a role to archive the pre-calculated DPS, specialy with lucky factors as tohit, defence and friendly buffs. Add the resist of a mob varies alot, for example council warwolf or hooverbot versus a grenadier using a Axe or Mace (the difference in DPS versus these mobs is over 50%).

As for Mace, the secondairy reason might be the lower (very tiny) control/damage compared with other sets, but i think the majority do not wish to take Mace because of the looks and its sounds.

A funny one, provoke pool for the fear power.

Leaping for acrobatics and combat jumping, good for mez.

Leadership, extra acc (+perc), bitty damage and venguance for the team.

Teleport, recall friend and TP for Nuke, bitty saver but bitty useless.

All submitted have been added again.

Was a typo:
4,47 vs 5,28

As for KD/U mace has 3 equal powers (the final 2 and jawbreaker), so leaves Axe with only 4 (40%-50%) KD/U left.
Where PBAoE drops as its 50%AoE vs 30% mag2 stun. leaving 3 (40/50/50) wich face a 6sec 10% &amp; 20% mag2 and 12sec 100% mag3 stun. Added that the tier9, mace has a higher chance of knockback then Axe (60 vs 50%).

I asume you mean invention sets

You might take a look at Mids herodesigner, its a very accurate wy to see wich set fits in with power, together with the bonusses comming from the sets. Some prefer a bit of resist/defence, others like mez-resist, or just want the 'chance of X damage' or %-regen.

As for prices, 20m is a bit overdone, but some sets are only obtainable by TF's and sortlike, so being quite rare. Add the fact they are needed by nearly everyone, prices tend to go up massive.

The money itself, once you go from 40-50 the inf-gaining is insane, specialy at 50 all you get it influence. This way you can earn quite some cash by just wacking mobs and often be lucky to get the basic IO recipes that go 100-180k each.

Ok quick checkup on BI's, rounded on 2 digs.
First number is Mace, 2nd is Axe
Mace vs Axe
2,78 vs 2,78
4,56 vs 4,56
0,69 vs 5,44 (12sec mag3 stun vs 50% chance KD)
5,44 vs 6,33
3,11 vs 2,78
6,33 vs 7,67
4,47 vs 4,28

Most powers are the same (swoop/jawbreak - aoe/aoe, Tier 8/9) animation, its merely the extra effect that differs.

So yes, minor less damage but compensate alot by having a perma stunner.

I think you can draw the same line to blasters, with /ice and /dev set as being the /ice and /mace. Fit /ice with the right set (fire armor - AR ignite) and icepatch becomes 1 of the strongest powers ingame. Even without, it still is a very good damage migations power.

The discussion for frozen touch en frozen aura.. The last power is imho the most lousy power ingame. Even for blasters they get a far stronger power from the epic set (target huge aoe sleep). Same goes for tankers, as having salt crystals from the stone epic as far stronger power. Frozen touch becomes less effective by having a ranged hold from the epic set.

These 2 powers bugger me the most, as all the others are imho good in line with other sets (specialy with ice patch as extra).

As for mace, it is nearly par with the entire Axe set, but instead of KU/D it has a stun chance. With a swap around of a few powers (tier 8 with 6) and change the looks, it would be more interesting thing to play.

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taunt auras are at:
lvl2 - CE
lvl18 - invincibility

damage auras are unlocked at:
lvl1 - BA
lvl6 - mudpots
lvl12 - icicles

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Thats just being annoying with exact wording.
Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.

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/my bum


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Ohwell..

PICSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!111!111111!

I have a lvl50 ice/nrg and a 50 nrg/ice.

The thing i can say, ice/nrg does a ISANE load more damage. There are more reasons that nrg/ice is 1 of the 'less favorite' builds, a few pointed:

-nrg powers do knocback.. alot.
-nrg is 1 of the most common resisted element next to SL
-nrg has very long animation. Even the first power has a too long animation for its damage.
-nrg nearly all powers do a rooting, very very annoying.

-ice has no strong melee powers compared to the other sets.
-ice has shivers, no damage, low usability, nearly useless
-ice has a PBAoE sleep (10ft) wich is 100% useless.
-ice forces you to go melee without proper reward, CE, icepatch, ST hold, frozen fist, ice sword. Due lack of primairy ranged mez (outside fire, all have) its getting worse.

So damage-DPS/KB wise, its very annoying. I do admit it is a very nice set to play with, nrg powers still do look nice dispite animationduration and rooting. Ice can be fun, but gets bitty useless in big teams or KB-resist mobs (ice patch). -Recharge wont help much as they still can do all their primairy powers, including rikti-blades, mezz powers.

It took me very very long to get the nrg/ice to 50, fed up with rooting, animation and lowish damage, i finaly managed to enjoy it again by spending 3 respecs.

But that all said, i am used to ice/nrg, 1 of the fastest DPS controlled blasters. I have a AR/ice too, annoying solo but compared in teams does 10 times better job then nrg/ice.

As long you enjoy the sets, enjoy the game, it doesnt mather. I still like to play the nrg/ice, because its 'different' then others it still gives you a great feeling playing it.

Ooooooh me = scared?
I actualy only won once and never fought you again But we can do a rematch on my new and improved MaceX

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Well, we usually aim for a team size around 4, prefer to have someone who can heal (although the moniker "healer" might not be exactly fitting) and do Hollows at all cost, but other than that I have to agree that smaller teams (no PUGs) in a controlled environment are a good way to start tanking pre-SOs.
I guess the worst thing that can happen to a tanker in the teens is that he 'learns' in 8-man-PUGs set on Invincible against high-damage/high-mez mobs and never ever dares to tank again.

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That was and is my big grudge against the whole Hollows. As upto lvl10 is very fast doable, people who pick tankers and face this 'massacre' often stop and redo into something more powerfull such as blasters and trollers.
Of most times i PuG'ed on my lowbies, i checked veteran badges on the teams, whereby alot tankers have +9 veteran already and most other 'easy' AT's are the ones with less. And as the sets of tankers vary insane at low lvl (damage and shield wise) its imho impossible to setup a solid guide that suits every set possible.

Hm.. no thx from here

Good luck on your SG though, imho a good thing

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So, the question is, what can be done to try and overcome this problem? How can we help people to appreciate what a Tanker can be and what they can do if only they can overcome the difficulties of the first 15-20 levels? It'd be a shame to end up with a nation of scrankers, let's hope it doesn't happen.

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Sounds simple and hars, but the way i (and friends who i invite to this game) survive pre-SO.. solo and mini-teams (max 2, prefered with healer). Avoid Hollows at all cost, from lvl6 in atlas to KR newspapers and contacts, to steel for DO's and missions to move up to Faultline mainly solo (arachnos psi damage is not funny) or move out to IP. Specialy in teams with a damage dealer (blaster) and a supportive controler (emp, kin, rad, sonic in lesser) its a great way to get around with little attacks and still focus greatly on agro, shields and 'tanking'.

Done with fire, stone and inv, probably can do it again with Ice.

Then i think you have to choose. What is your current problem at the moment more? Dangerous low health and lack of healing (aid self) or can a team shred the mobs so fast that shivers and CE (specialy if u stick ranged) less usefull?

I compared quickly, i have 1 attack less from primairy (im nrg) and dont have shivers. Making 2 spots free for medicine and the 47/49 are for my Epics.

You have flares as power? There you got your free spot.

Shivers, another 'too situational' power that i never took and probably never will.

My AR/ice dropped CE to get frozenfist/ice sword combo, has stamina, hasten, aid self (and SS as travel), also icepath, chillbain and the hold power. My nrg/ice still have CE, aid self, stamina, fly as travel, hasten, entire Epic ice pool and a nice powerset from both sides.

It really is possible to fit all in, you have to pick powers you never use (or hardly) to drop and only put those in wich you actualy gonna use.

Bots have great help with FF, due protector bots do also bubbles, you get some lovely stacked defence. As 90% they are fully ranged, it works great with FF forcebubble.

They ditch out quite good damage, they do -regen as you dont have debuffs yourself and can heal eachother.

Other then that, i would say Mercs due fully ranged (but u lack massive on damage) or ninja's with stacked defence.

So to say.. 'they are ok'.

Personaly i would pick aid self way way way way before i even consider taking RoF.