Pilcrow

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I wasn't talking about prioritizing melee over armor sets.

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Well, then, I misunderstood you.

Personally, I think Tankers and Scrappers are both hurting about equally for new powerset love. Scrappers have fewer sets overall, true, but more primary sets. I'd call that a wash.

Others will, of course, value one of those factors over another thereby feeling one AT deserves love more than the other.

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"...while CoV was still under pre-release development" is the bit that I (still) think everyone's missing. Don't misunderstand, I'm not exactly thrilled that CoH isn't getting more with the new issue. I'm not terribly disappointed either since I've personally yet to exhaust the existing game... but that's a whole 'nuther issue.

I just think the "seperate developer team" quote was a specific statement addressing a specific timeframe and that people have subsequently blown it way out of proportion.

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Yep...my comments fall exactly into line with what you've said.

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Many have asked if we will have to wait the usual issue cycle until Issue 8 for some substantial new PVE content in CoH.

Is your expectation that such content will not come until Issue 8 and that Issue 8 will likely not come until 2-4 months after I7, or is such content further along in the queue such that we can expect to see it sooner than (march + 3 months =) July?

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Scappers need some help there too. Only 4 secondaries to choose from.

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Agree, but the issue is bigger if you are talking about your primary. Heck even masterminds are getting a thug set to bump up their set count. Even so i do think scrappers should at least get a variant of Ninjitsu

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However, with tankers sitting at 7 melee options and scrappers at 6, don't you think it's a bit strange to prioritize new melee sets for tankers over new melee sets for scrappers?

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With tankers and scrappers both sitting on over half a dozen melee sets each but only 4 armor sets apiece, I think it's a bit strange to prioritize more melee sets for either AT over more armor sets for them?

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I just think the "seperate developer team" quote was a specific statement addressing a specific timeframe and that people have subsequently blown it way out of proportion.

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I disagree. The community expressed concern that they would be getting short shrift. The devs assured them otherwise, they didn't add a caveat of: "but only until CoV releases" (that I recall) to said reassurance.

Note, I'm not calling them liars or damnding they set their org chart based on a single post. Just noting that by answering those concerns with the "separate dev teams" bit they set an expectation that they failed to deliver on. They could simply have kept silent and let the assumption (that CoH would get short shrift) lie.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have formed those expectations given that the devs could have simply stayed silent on the issue or admitted that CoH would suffer for a while instead of pointing to a separate dev team.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to mention that incident in a thread where some people repeatedly dismiss them their perspective on the lack of PVE content for CoH.

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What happened to a team on each project?

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I keep seeing this, so I have to wonder if I was the only one who presumed the different teams were only existing before CoV was released? Or, more specifically, that the resource allocation and design deadlines were kept distinct only until CoV hit the shelves?

I never thought they'd keep the games completely isolated once they both existed, coupling together in a PvP frenzy. I'm sure different people are assigned different coding tasks -- some CoV, some CoH -- but as an ongoing, perpetual situation? Hardly.

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I think the point people are making in referring back to the "separate design teams" posts is not that they care much about the org charts at Cryptic, but that that behind-the-scenes peek into the org chart was given to us to assure us that the development of CoV was not going to stop the forward progress of CoH.

So, when we all rabble-roused that CoV was taking time away from developments promised for CoH, the devs came along and said "Not true. Look at our separate design teams. See, a whole design team just of you! So, don't worry about getting short shrift for you CoHers. All is well."

Whether or not they chose to re-org after CoV came out is somewhat academic. As are questions of whether the coding teams, content teams, and/or dev teams are now combined or separate. As are questions as to whether this imagined org chart is or is not efficient.

The point is that when people voiced concern that CoH would be getting short shrift to enable CoV, the devs pointed to the separate dev teams as an example to reassure CoHers that they would, in fact, NOT be getting short shrift, and yet...well, you know where it goes from there.

In short: Cryptic assured us CoH's development would not be neglected. How they assured us (separate dev teams) is not the main point.

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Will the mission sharing feature for completing the same mission on a team at least make it to V7? At least give us some kind of table scrap from 4 months ago.

Please don't make us wait 6-10 months for this also.

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Someone probably already posted this but.

States posted a few months ago that "Newspaper" missions and joint mission completion are linked. Don't get one without the other. And we won't be getting Newspaper missions in I7.

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It’s true that CoV received more attention, but that’s mainly because we needed to fill out the levels. I had the option of releasing I7 or waiting until we could fill out the City of Heroes content. Obviously, I chose the former. New content should get out there when it’s ready. We'll be focusing equally as much as possible on each product moving into the future...

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Jack:

I won't belabor why I think Issue 7 should include some new content for CoH PVE-ers. I'll just note some possibly easy ways that you could deliver new content to the CoH PVE-ers in issue 7.

#1) Create a fallen hero trial so heroes can cross over into the Rogue Isles and experience the PVE there.

#2) Add "Praetorian Portals" to City of Heroes that not only transport your hero to the Praetorian worlds to fight evil there, but also (as a consequence) cause your Praetorian opposite to transport into the Rogue Isles. When you enter the Praetorian Portal, you don't play your hero in those dimesntions, but instead play your evil opposite as a villain of the same level in CoV. (Obivously, you could make this a two way street). This would give both heroes and villains access to all the PVE content in the opposite game without the overhead of a building a redeemed/fallen system.

#3) Make Hazard Zone versions of Warburg, Bloody Bay and Sirens Call with the PVP element/Zonewide game removed, but the missions intact so people who don't like to PVP can access that content without risking PVP.

#4) Even though the full-on broker system isn't available in CoH yet and is not going to be, the mission generator tech is available. So put a contact in each zone that will offer you the randomized missions - and nothing else. Then turn them into a full fledged brokers when that becomes available.

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Actually, if they could fit in the Fallen/Redeemed trial into i7, I'd be very happy as that adds *FIVE* Arch Types worth of content to City of Heroes!

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A-MEN!

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I play different ATs because they play differently. Who has what power set only matters to me when it starts to [censored] over my ability to play the characters I want to RP... which is quite a long list considering I have a year+ of "Oh that is goo... oh wait.. right.. exclusive power sets.. and this character wouldn't suit x AT.".



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I know it's not out yet, but wouldn't a power customization system resolve this urge better than set sharing?

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Yes it would to an extent, but it's a looong way off.

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Agreed, but if this is an issue, let's rabble rouse to get that off the back burner instead of rabble rousing to share every set it is possible to share (to the detriment of those who want to play a more "unique" character).

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I play different ATs because they play differently. Who has what power set only matters to me when it starts to [censored] over my ability to play the characters I want to RP... which is quite a long list considering I have a year+ of "Oh that is goo... oh wait.. right.. exclusive power sets.. and this character wouldn't suit x AT.".



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I know it's not out yet, but wouldn't a power customization system resolve this urge better than set sharing?

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What you listen to says a lot. Hit "random," "shuffle," or whatever you have on your music player currently, and list the first ten tracks that play. And prepare for belittlement!

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1) The Ambient One - The Bobs
2) Tomorrow is Today - Billy Joel
3) Tweedle Dee - La Vern Baker
4) Car Wash - Rose Royce
5) Anticiption - Carly Simon
6) Where Does the Wayward Footwear Go - The Bobs
7) Mystery Man - The Outfield
8) The Twilight Zone - Rush
9) Where Have All the Cowboys Gone - Paula Cole
10) Petition the Lord with Prayer - The Doors

But I NORMALLY only play the 5K or so songs I've rated 3 ***s or more. Let's see if that works out any better:

1) Money for Noting (Beverly Hillbillies Remix) - Wierd Al Yankovic
2) Photographs and Memories - Jim Croche
3) Chunga's Revenge - Frank Zappa
4) The Indians - King Missile
5) World in my Eyes - Depeche Mode
6) Spider of Destiny - Frank Zappa
7) Heroes - David Bowie
8) I'm Looking Through You - The Beatles
9) Bells of St. James - Kansas
10) Small Blue Thing - Suzanne Vega

Ah, much better. Though I'd've been happy for the Bobs to make the second list.

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Of course, if pohsyb wants to join in the Haiku Flamewar again, he is free to.

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pohsyb does not flame (*_*)
job is for friggen_taser (;>O&lt/
now get back to work (-_^)

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cough. roflcopter
little round guy emotes stuff
man, i love these devs.

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ROFLCoptor
WT* is ROFLCoptor
U R 2 Uber

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And for the record, it's highly frustrating to see all this good news about how wonderful I7 is going to be and have the immediate reaction be, 'This isn't enough!'

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

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I call your gift horse and raise you one squeaky wheel.

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Pilcrow's position is reasonable. There's no reason to attack him for it. He's not wrong nor is he a bad person for wanting CoH content.

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Thanks, Kali.

I hadn't responded directly to that post because Tazer asked about the same question and I had already answered it.

Reasonable people can agree to disagree over whether or not I7 SHOULD have PVE content for CoH. My reasons for believing it should are well documented in the thread. If someone disagrees with them, that's no skin of my nose.

But let's not move beyond that into ridiculing people for having different opinions than our own. That's simply a non-constructive way to boost one's e-Peen.

To the extent that I was guilty of that, I apologize.

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Of course, if pohsyb wants to join in the Haiku Flamewar again, he is free to.

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pohsyb does not flame (*_*)
job is for friggen_taser (;>O&lt/
now get back to work (-_^)

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Pohsyb is so cool
He causes so much laughter
With his silly posts

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On the other hand, the devs have never promised that the game would include new powersets added often, or that zones wouldn't be magic based.


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Though, to the same extent, they never promised both PvE and PvP content in every patch.

New issues bring only one new promise: new content. And it's up to the player to decide if that new content is for them or not.

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If my bank promised that I would not have to participate in ATM/internet banking to use my account, and then they kept closing branches and shortening their hours quarter after quarter, I might consider that they aren't delivering what I had reasonably expected, even though they have not expressly broken a promise.

If the devs intent is to only offer new content primarily via PVP zones and CoV from here on, I shan't call them liars or any such thing, but I think its fair of me to want to know if that is their intent, or if at some point I can expect them to redeploy some resources back to my favorite parts of the game.

However, if an express promise is required, when people were concerned about Crotoa being 25-35 instead of 30-40, the devs acknowledged that there is a content gap in the 30s in CoH and promised some content to close that gap would come "soon".

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But isn't all content, in and of itself, optional?

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Of course. Playing the game is optional. I could go play Scrabble.

However, there's a difference between me excercising my personal entertainment options and the devs coming out and saying something is optional. When the devs say it, the implication is that the aspects of the game that you have come to enjoy will not be given short shrift in order to facilitate the new optional thing the devs are making.

Previous to PVP and CoV, new content was added to the PVE portion of CoH each issue (that's all there was!). People have been pretty open-minded about not getting that for a couple of issues when the devs were putting up the arena and CoV, but the expectation was that after the launch of CoV we would start seeing at least some of the new content effort being put back into the portions of the game the devs didn't label as optional. (And maybe they did and just didn't highlight it in the press release.)

You might consider that expecation as unreasonable, but I think it's a pretty fair follow through from the dev promises of CoV and PVP being optional.

On the other hand, the devs have never promised that the game would include new powersets added often, or that zones wouldn't be magic based, or that you would never have anything to complain about, or that you would happen to have characters of the right level when new content did come out.

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B) Until my heroes can crossover into the Villain PVE zones, the fact that I've purchased CoV doesn't do them a whole heck of a lot of good.

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The game doesn't revolve around Heroes, luv. And certaintly not yours. Just because they didn't give you something specific for some specific characters* doesn't mean that this issue isn't a very very good thing. Just from this press release alone we've gotten so much more fantastic content for CoX! Why the heck are you complaining that it's not enough?

(* They DID give you new things! New costume peices, new SG base additions, a whole new zone to play in!)

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Look, flame on all you want, I'm not rising to the bait anymore. If you want to view my post as a request that the entire game revolve around my specific characters, then you're more interested in convincing yourself I'm a twerp than in having a civilized discussion.

Ladied and gentlemen, I am a twerp.

Voila, you can be happy now.

I think you might want to highlight my first post here and re-read it with the blue-ed out text visible. I see a lot of good news in this press release, and my only real concern is that it didn't include an announcement of content for the PVE segment of CoH.

I've explained elsewhere why I don't think that's an unreasonable request. If you don't buy that logic, we can agree to disagree.

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So your argument is that since the new PvP zone includes villians it's not good enough for you and should be CoH only? When CoH already has 28 zones? What?

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I'm saying that in an issue update of game with two inentionally OPTIONAL content areas (CoV and PVP), the devs should put some new content in that does not require one to participate in either piece of optional content.

Quite possibly they have, and this press release just didn't highlight the new content that is coming for people who choose not to participate in the OPTIONAL portions of the game.

But if they haven't included such content, people have a legitimate reason to be disappointed. It's not an unreasonable expectation.

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Just because you refuse to participate in certain aspects of the game doesn't mean the dev's should caiter to your needs. You don't PvP - but PvP zones still have PvE missions with cool outcomes and awesome temp powers. You refuse to enter them apparently.

Your loss

CoV is an expanshalone. You can play it without CoH, but lets face it...it's an expansion. You refuse to either buy or play this expansion.

Your loss

Hon, there is new content in this Issue for Heroes. And it does include a whole new (PvP) zone for them. Just because you refuse to use it is YOUR problem, not ours.

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A) Don't make assumptions about how I play the game. I don't let a PVP rep I could care less about keep me away from the PVE content in the PVP zones.

B) Until my heroes can crossover into the Villain PVE zones, the fact that I've purchased CoV doesn't do them a whole heck of a lot of good.

C) Those who take the devs at their word that PVP and CoV are OPTIONAL are not unreasonable to expect that the devs would include some new content in each issue that doesn't require playing CoV or risking PVP.

But thanks for your compassionate response. I'm sure you have a great future in customer relations.

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Boomtown's rebuilding could very well be part of I7.

It's just not a big selling point, you know? People who don't have the game wouldn't know what Boomtown is. So why would they care if Boomtown was being rebuilt? However, WHOLE new zones? That speaks to new players. New powers? New graphics? New costume options?

A lot of people are taking this as gospel of what will be and won't be in I7. It's a marketing department press release meant to attract new players to the game before the issue hits. That's why it hit MMORPG.com before the main site.

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And that is, indeed, my hope.

This release is full of good news if you are a PVPer and/or a villain, and full of some amazing potential even if you prefer heroes and PVE. We don't know the details nor if this is only PART of what is coming out.

I just hope I7 have a single new PVE Zone for Heroes. Or, I'd even settle for newspaper-style mission generators in the existing zones. Just some new PVE content for heroes that doesn't require someone to go through a PVP zone to get to it.

It's not an unreasonable want. And it's not like a redname has posted: "not gonna happen" either.

I remain cautiously optimistic. Just found it funny how amazingly impressive the release was if you had your villain cap on and how humdrum it was if you had your hero cap on.

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Lets all do some simple math. Heroes have:

Now, to crunch the numbers:

28 > 7

And you're all upset that Heroes don't get a new zone? Whaaat?

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Funny how math can be used to make almost any point.

People who prefer PVE and heroes have got how many new zones in Issue 6? And Villains and PVPers got how many?

9 > 0

And you think it's ridiculous to want a single new zone for PVE Heroes in issue 7?

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Let them wait some more,
Heroes are just big fatheads,
Let them go play Sims

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I know why you would want to join the fun
Flaming Tazer and/or Pilcrow can be,
When deliver'd with meter and scansion,
A sight for unblemished eyes to see,

But take care if you venture to closely,
Though measured, the lines can grow quite hot.
Clever and thoughtful you will have to be
To weather the tempest in this teapot,

Think not the simplicity of Haiku
Will be the only poems brought to bear
The weight of our mighty and cruel board-fu -
That may strike you if you do not forbear.

If you must join, not just look upon it
Your next post should be a flaming sonnet.

I cannot deny
CoV needed content
Knew it would come, too

But Heroes who don't
Like PVP have waited
Give them one new zone

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Well Taser, you may not agree with me a lot.

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Don't make me flame you in haiku.

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Oh Issue Seven Curse Issue Seven
You bring us treasures untold Villains reap riches galore
My cup runs over Heroes get jack squat

Statesman, hear my plea
Heroes deserve PVE
Zones before I8