PRAF68_EU
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Quote:I think with Castillo, it makes quite a difference if he gets his shield generator out or not.Originally Posted by Bright
Villain-side, I think it depends a lot on who the boys go for... Some combinations are a fairer fight than others.
When I ran it with Kestrel, Castillo went right for Nocturne. Who, as you might expect, absolutely ripped the poor guy to shreds. Odysseus went after Sands and just kicked his butt all over the room. He was completely done with Mister-Yeah-I-Forgot-My-Helmet, and had taken a fair chunk out of Nocturne by the time I was finished with Ghost Widow.
I suspect if they had switched targets, both of them would still have been standing at the end of the fight. -
Quote:It would need to be buffed a very long way for that to happen...Originally Posted by Madadh
I will agree that TA isn't the best set out there. And I doubt anyone said it was, as is. But, if buffed, it may become so.
And Acid Arrow can't despite having a recharge that would allow it. Which means making sure it's not over-used a pain in the butt.Quote:Among the things I want to point out.
1) Disruption Arrow, as it is, can be stacked, and that's a fun advantage.
Disruption Arrow is an average power, and no one is suggesting changing it.
TA fairs badly whatever set you compare it with, because it's a control set masquerading as a debuff set.Quote:2) You only seem to be comparing TA to the completely acknowledged 'creme of the crop' powersets. And proving it isn't the best ever is far from proving it isn't worthy of continuing in it's present form.
But buffing one or two of it's weaker powers isn't going to change it's form.
Which would be a valid point, if TA was the number one debuff set. But it aint.Quote:3) Debuffing an enemy affects everyone, while buffing only affects the buffed party.
The above average animation times on TA attacks mean it's not exactly the most mobile set.Quote:4) Traps? I think this is a decent comparison, but... Traps has a mobility issue that TA just doesn't. TA can roam. Traps just cant.
Like Aedon, I have played and like TA.Quote:Aedon, I get that you just don't like TA as it is.. It may not be your thing. And that's fair. But, as a player of the set, I think that buffing it, will only result in it being nerfed later... I'd like to avoid that. Hence my hesitation...
This is TA:
Some powers are weak, others are average. Weak powers could be buffed without changing the average powers.
This is EM:
Some mediocre powers, one very very overpowered power. The mediocre powers can't be buffed without nerfing the overpowered power. -
Quote:Well, if you call 15% higher DPS slightly better...Originally Posted by Madadh
Point 1: I think you're worrying far too much about damage numbers that really, don't differ by much.. Is Mace slightly better? Perhaps. How many builds can leverage that slight difference to much? Not frikking many..
If you want to stack those powers that are stackable, you need lots of recharge, which means lots or redraw if you don't pair it with Archery.Quote:Point 2: I can't comment at all on this. Not a troller type, and not an obsessive redraw type.
Why would you want to drop the buffs later? The late powers in TA are only on a par with other buff sets. They certainly aren't better than the late powers in Time Manipulation, Rad, or Kin, which aren't burdened with feeble early powers.Quote:Point 3: I'd be OK with buffing the early powers, if those buffs dropped later. I don't think they will. Not sure that's even in the spirit of the game.. -
Quote:Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.Originally Posted by Schismatrix
That theory sounds apostrophous!
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Quote:I think you are missing the point - ET is is (arguably) already the highest ST damage set available to tankers - you couldn't add any of that stuff without nerfing the set elsewhere.Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I think part of what feels off about Energy Melee is that it tends to feel like the same power 7 times in a row with different damage and animations. It's all just Energy Damage, Smashing Damage, and a Stun. No debuffs, no buffs, no soft controls, no other hard controls, etc.
Battle Axe, Energy Blast, and Electrical Blast all kind of suffer from a similar problem.
If the devs are satisfied with it's damage and ST focus, and players want to avoid having a gimmick added (like Gravity's Impact), the solution could be as simple as adding additional effects, such as:
- -Resistance, Slow, or Immobilize to Bone Smasher (based on the name)
- +Defense or -ToHit to Whirling Hands
- AoE Knockdown to Total Focus (not damage, just KD in an AoE around the target)
- -Defense or -Resistance to Stun
- -Regen on the target or Cone Knockdown (again, not damage, just KD in a cone)
Or whatever, other similar kinds of additional effects that would increase what Energy Melee can offer without directly touching it's damage formulas.
And it already adds stuff - lots of stacking Stun. It's not varied or exciting, but it is effective. -
You could ape-lift into a log or a hat, with abilities working differently for each.
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Quote:With most of their functionality linked to ape-lifting? Viable on their own? I think not.Originally Posted by Benchpresser
While the Idea may have been dropped.. my guess is the powersets haven't.. If they are close to what was leaked.. they are still viable... the "primary" may restrict secondaries a bit but who knows...
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Quote:Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my take on Z's comment is that the "Ryhmalist" has been dropped.Originally Posted by Benchpresser
OK.. assuming no word play on Z's part... If the "Ryhmalist" isn't an AT... that's going to be 1 funky Defender and melee set.....
Doesn't surprise me, given all the people who posted in the "how much would you pay for a new AT" thread things like "I wouldn't give a cent over 600 PP". It would probably need to sell for something like 12,000 PP to make it economically viable. -
Quote:The assumption is, if it aint broke, don't fix it.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree with you for the most part. The problem is, where do you look at the balance of a set? Do you look at high-recharge cases, or do you use more "standard" recharge areas (such as a single recharge SO only, maybe with Hasten)? Also, remember that this is all just theoretical damage, too. If the EM hits total focus, and the team takes the target down before the hit lands, that is wasted damage that you can't account for. I'd love to see actual in-game numbers for the sets, but I don't think I'll ever get that.
I.e. unless you can show something is clearly, without any reasonable doubt, underperfoming or overprerforming under reasonably achievable circumstances, you leave it alone.
The link you posted is a good case in point. It clearly shows Spines performing well below the other sets. It has been confirmed that Spines is being buffed in issue 24 (yeah, it took 'em long enough...)
It's unfortunate that it was only done for Scrappers and Brutes, as we could do with data on Axe and Ice. -
There as several factors to take into account. ET, on it's own, has the highest DPA of any tanker attack. That means that spamming ET and nothing else would give you the highest possible tanker DPS. But there is the sizable (20 second base) recharge to overcome. In comparison, all Fire Melee attacks have higher DPA than equivalent EM attacks (not including ET). Thus, the more recharge you have, the more EM beats FM. With my IO/Incarnate levels of +recharge, I can hugely outshine FM. But even with SO recharge levels (and Hasten) I estimate that EM is slightly ahead of FM*. Of course, your primary will have an affect here. If it has in-built +recharge (SR, Elec, EA) it will do better with EM. If it has -Recharge (Stone) it will do better with FM.
* ST damage only, of course. EM is clearly bottom of the pile for AoE.
Stone is an interesting case, because the limiting factor here is endurance. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Shidosha
A tanker doesn't really appeal to me; I already have a Brute that can't die unless I die IRL at the keyboard. Doing that same thing with lower damage isn't really my aim.
Are you sure you want Staff at all then, since it means you are probably going with lower (ST) damage and higher survivability than your brute simply by choosing Staff?
Stalker is really your only option if you want more damage with less survivability.
Less interesting. If you want an AoE DPS Scrapper I would pick Titan Weapons.Quote:Let me rephrase: I am considering a staff/bio scrapper. How is staff on scrappers compared to brutes and stalkers?
I also wouldn't pair Staff with Bio - 6 mode buttons with 9 combos!? You sure that's what you want? -
Quote:I would be interested in seeing your calculations, because according to mine (tanker) EM has significantly better ST damage than Fire Melee, whilst also having massively better mitigation, by keeping the target stunned.Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Like Energy Melee. It doesn't perform. It's not BAD like Energy Blast is bad, but it's certainly not among the good single-target sets like Fire Melee or Dark Melee. -
Quote:Er, Ax used to be nearly identical to mace until Mace got buffed.Originally Posted by Madadh
Ax is almost identical to Mace, and nobody complains about Mace under-performing, that I have heard at least. Ax just trades disorient for more KU and KD, which, if you want to keep things close for PBAOE fun, is a better choice IMHO. Solid AOE, and solid single target, with lots of mitigation; what's not to like?
I don't think anyone is suggesting changes to Ax beyond buffing it's damage to be more in line with similar sets, like Mace.
Played Illusion/TA controller to 50. Whilst fun, the frantic bow-swapping makes it seem very clumsy, and quite a few powers seem very weak for their effective activation times.Quote:As for TA, it's fine at level 50. It's just an incredibly late bloomer. And, as far as I can tell, it's not seen as under-performing on Trollers (though my troller TA is only lvl 20ish, so I can't attest to this persoanlly)
I think you are worrying to much. I think those early powers could be buffed quite a long way before the set became overpowered...Quote:, so it's only on Defs and Corrs that people seem to have problems with it. I can imagine the crashless nukes (Crashless nuke on an OS, with a DA or 2 out, yes please) and other blast set changes might make TA shine a little faster. But, the only thing I can see changing to make TA better in and of itself, is buffing early powers, that pretty much means nerfing later powers to stop it from being OP at 50, which isn't a trade off I want.
Personally, I would like to see those earlier powers (Acid, Glue, Ice, Poison Gas) made much more effective but with longer cooldowns to reduce weapon-swapping.
Edit: This is what I would do to Trick Arrow. Firstly, I believe the tech now exists to have Flash Arrow ignite Oil Slick without it having to damage other targets. That would solve one issue. The other thing I would do is increase the radius of Acid Arrow to 15', increase it's resistance debuff to 30%, and increase it's recharge to 40s. -
Quote:It was guessed and sort-of supported by a comment by Synapse.Originally Posted by Agent White
Where did the whole 'origin themed' thing come from? I thought just Sorcery got leaked, was it just an assumption or did someone dig up something else I missed?
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Quote:Be interested in hearing your reasons why. (NB, I am not disagreeing with you, I'm just interested.)Originally Posted by Madadh
Please, leave my Ax alone. And I'm pretty leery about TA getting messed with, too....
Oh, and I'm no major number cruncher, but I have tried comparing a few Fire Melee attack chains with Energy Melee attack chains, and as far as I can tell, EM is well ahead in terms of ST damage. Which does, I think, give it the highest single target damage available to tankers. If anyone else can show different, I would be interested to hear about that too. -
Quote:Villain side, the NPC allies where useless anyway, barely lasting a few seconds.Originally Posted by Theran
Some minor spoilers ahead, as a warning.
It was good, though in the fight against Ghost Widow, Sands and Nocturne, I would've preferred a choice to fight them alone. I mean, a couple of my characters, after fighting off two entire armies in Cimerora and Dark Astoria, are the kind to want to make Ghost widow eat her words about being no match against the three of them, even if it means telling the Phalanx to back off. This is just a minor complaint though, as I've also got several characters who are more than happy to take the assist, even if they would have no problem handling it alone, just the choice to either accept the assistance or tell the Phalanx to back off would've been nice.
Hero side, the NPC allies blasted everything in sight before I could get a look in.
But yeah, Penny... -
The slow (actually not that slow) huge damage on ET is far from meaningless. It is, in effect, a tanker Assassin Strike, making the set number one for bust damage, and allowing dangerous minions and lts, like sappers, to be one shotted.
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Quote:AoE is irrelevance. EM is a ST set. Relevent evidence is that it's ST damage isn't one of the top performers.Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I understand the requirement for evidence and people writing [citation needed] on what is controversial, but... oh hell. whatever.
AOE.
Whirling hands.
That's it. -
Quote:Not better. A REPLACEMENT.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
LOL. So if new players aren't choosing a set because it underperforms, that's okay, because there's a better set out there?
Same theme, same damage types, flashier animations and a gimmick.
Show me evidence that energy melee underperforms and I might listen to you.
I have several tanks. Fire/SS has better AoE, but it doesn't come close in ST damage. -
Quote:ET is not actually as slow as people think (2.67 seconds, comparable to most sets heavy hitters). Total Focus is the slow one. Staff is popular and has three powers with comparable length animations.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
ONE person said that they only liked fast attacks in this thread. Other people might just not like slow attacks. I think that the relative lack of /EM being played in the game points to the fact that there are MANY people who don't like the slow attacks.
I think people don't play it simply because it doesn't look very interesting compare to modem sets - no gimmick, only one secondary effect. I also think it doesn't matter. Kinetic Melee is the replacement. EM only still exists as a legacy powerset. -
Quote:It was changed because the original design team didn't take animation times into account AT ALL when balancing powers. It was obviously OP since I first hit level 32. I didn't mind the nerf because I had been expecting it for something like a year.Originally Posted by Primal_Dark
I honestly think that energy melee was nerfed due to PvP and the fact that it was ported to stalkers. Castle himself said the change was due in part to the fact that people were getting laughed at for choosing other sets in PvP. For stalkers, where many AOE powers were removed, Energy Melee was truly dominant in its single target damage. No One ever argued about its dominance among tankers and brutes in PvE, since other sets far out shined it in overall game play.
The change to energy transfer was truly disfiguring to the set. Though it may have been necessary for balance issues, the resulting horrid animation and long cast times of its heavy hitters made it feel wrong to me and I haven't played it since. You can argue all you want that it's designed to take down "hard" targets but everyone knows that others sets do the job better and faster. Now that there are mechanics to make powers different in PvP and PvE I think it should get looked at again. I would much rather have a shorter animation and a larger chuck of health removed than be a corpse smasher on a team in PvE. Do whatever you want with it in PvP since no one I know plays it anyway. I'm sure it's far down on the devs list of stuff to look at though and it's probably just wishful thinking.
As for the appearance of the animations, I preferred the replacement. It fitted my robot theme better. -
Quote:They have been listened to. They have said they stopped playing because they only like fast attacks. Which would be a valid point if EVERYONE only like fast attacks.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
People who stopped playing because of the nerf should also be listened to, because they may have valid points as to why they stopped playing, not just that they were no longer overpowered.
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Quote:As I've said before:Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Folks play the strongest sets. The preponderance of SS/Fire brutes should indicate that. The lack of EM across the bulk of the meta points to its inability to compete.
1) SS is clearly overpowered, and is therefore invalid for baseline comparisons.
2) It doesn't matter if new players don't choose Energy Melee. Kinetic Melee is a semi-replacement. -
Quote:I've nothing against any of these. But I'm afraid that if it gets "looked at" the people who want the animation or self damage of ET reduced, and hence its burst damage, will be listened too. I would rather the set not be buffed at all than risk changes to may favourite power.Originally Posted by Seldom
There are several places the set could be improved. Putting the damage upfront in either total focus or energy transfer would alleviate the QoL problem of "too much damage too late" also known as corpse-blasting. Total focus' mag 4 stun gave burst control to compensate for its long animation, that would help survival vs. hard targets. Stun gives a long animation with almost no damage...it should either be a faster control, or have damage in line with its long animation. The problem with the latter is that energy melee already has that in spades. If the set is about killing tough targets, it should at least give better crowd mitigation to guard it while it locks in its longer animation that sometimes incur extra damage. This could be through Upping whiling hands' stun rate, or by making "stun" give crowd mitigation.
Basically, I think ET is still overpowered as an individual power (when you get very high levels of +recharge - I can take down EBs in less than 20 seconds), and I think if the devs look at it too closely, it will get nerfed again. I don't care if they buff the other powers in the set because I don't have them - I only have Barrage, BU, Whirling Hands, Taunt and ET. -
Quote:Which becomes better the more +recharge you add.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Energy Melee has middle-of the road single-target,
Which can be made up for (if you want to) by mixing in powers from other sets. Something you can't do with newer gimmicky powersets.Quote:and poor AoE.
It's good at:Quote:And the ST-damage standing is assuming that the target is still alive when you hit it, which may not be the case in team play. It may not be the worst set in the game right now, but it's not good at anything, either.
1) Stunning bosses.
2) Taking out dangerous lts and Minions (such as sappers) with one hit.
3) Not being gimmicky.
4) having a very end cheap heavy hitter.
It's been looked at, by someone who has played it almost every day for the last seven years, and it does fine.Quote:In my opinion, it's one of the three melee damage sets that at least needs to be looked at.
Yes, those two clearly underperform. As does Trick Arrow, Force Field, and quite a few others.Quote:The other two being /Axe and /Ice Melee.