Mieux

[ QUOTE ]
but all I have seen from you on this issue is emotion based nerf herding....

Too often do we see the words, "It isnt fun" or whatever opinionated expression is the favorite of the day...


[/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what this issue is about. Stalkers refuse to accept that as valid...but it's entirely valid. Not only from a general game playing perspective but from the devs own explicitly espoused game design philosophy. The devs spent months on the Skills System and then trashed it because States said it wasn't "fun." No math, no analysis, simple emotion. Fighting stalkers is by and large not fun for the vast majority of people. You need to accept that. Getting blind-sided by an entire AT that can repeatedly AS you from invisibility, is not fun. No math is needed to prove that.

You can point to a lot of specific things that might help against that situation, but a solo Defender/Controller will never see a solo stalker with Hide + Stealth active without constantly using Insights, or hoping IR gogles will last long enough in Warburg to justify the effort to get them..assuming the heroes are even winning in Siren's. Stealth can be had a level 6.

More importantly, it's irrelevant whether stalkers can be killed. It is irrelevant whether you or anyone else thinks they are "balanced." If Statesman can trash the entire skill system because it isn't "fun," then I'd like to see an explaination of how getting AS'd by invisible targets with auto-hitting placate is fun for anyone but the stalkers.

The problem is that on paper...it's not so bad. In practice the system is broken. Stalkers flood PvP because they have an overwhelming advantage. You know it...and I know it. If the people that play stalkers are so "skilled at PvP" then let's see them do the same thing with Dominators. Yeah...I didn't think so.

Regardless....the question of whether people enjoy fighting stalkers is the important question at this point. We already know people enjoy playing them.

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Marine snipers are trained to kill their targets in one shot from far away then disappear.(

[/ QUOTE ] Sure, I'll buy that for a dollar. Now ask yourself how many people would pay $15 a month to be in a war where Marine snipers where allowed to fight?

None.

What happens in real life...and what happens in a game where Cryptic needs people to enjoy it to stay in business, are two separate matters.

Stalkers, they way they are currently, are a self-defeating addition to PvP. Stalkers may be fun to play...but they are fun to play because there are victims. If no one wants to PvP because of Stalkers...then there is no point in having stalkers in PvP.

The issue in this game is more complicated. Cryptic can ignore the problems caused by stalkers in PvP because the game is primarily PvE revenue. They can wave their hand and say PvP isn't balanced for 1v1...never mind that Stalkers have the advantage 1v1 in like 95% of the situations...

But ask yourself..if your objective is to produce a game that people love playing...could PvP be more enjoyable to a LOT more people if they reworked the Stalker situation?

If PvP was a LOT more enjoyable to a lot more people, do you think CoX would make more money?

I understand that "fixing" the stalker situation is not simple.

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I don't think that's a realistic assumption, as blappers already prove

[/ QUOTE ] Except in my experience you're wrong. There are number of blasters in 'Burg that will gank anyone. But I can see them coming and my solo defenders can do any number of debuffs or statusing effects on them to either mitigate or completely incapacitate them. While Blappers/Blasters are extremely dangerous, there is an order of magnitude more enjoyment in being able to see them...BEFORE they attack and being able to attack them on sight. They can hunt, but they can't avoid being the hunted. Stalkers, as designed, get to have an asymmeterical benefit in that area.

PvP 1v1 is never a fair fight. Some fights are less unfair than others. But inviso+AS'ing is not fun. That's all there is to it. It's a question of whether players find the experience enjoyable, not whether stalkers see themselves as balanced. Brutes...bring 'em on. Dominators, Masterminds, Corrupters...I'll fight those guys all day long, win or lose. Stalkers...sorry, the tactics avaialble to stalkers ruin PvP imo. I'm not alone in this opinion. The devs have to decide who's interests are in the best interest of the game. The devs need to look at the big picture with regards to how stalkers affect not only the hero side, but the villiain side as well.

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It just made no sense to me that I could take that much damage in 1-shot from an opponent I never saw.

[/ QUOTE ] IMO, this is the fundamental issue. It really isn't taking that much damage...it really isn't the inability to see an opponent, it's the combination of those two things that players don't find "fun."

The question then turns on what length the devs expect players to go to, to see stalkers. Creating a situation where one side is forced to team and the other is not...is a position I do not agree with, nor is it consistent with any other philosophy or design promulgated by the game. In addition, forcing one side to team creates cascade problems. As someone pointed out, forcing every hero to stack perception, and most likely Tactics, means that +DEF based powers become less effective on average. It means that having just Stealth as a non-stalker becomes worthless on average.

There is no other AT..and I mean the entire AT, every set in the entire AT, which forces the other side into dramatic build changes like stalkers do. There is nothing unique about blasters that forces the villians to choose powers or builds simply to survive in PvP like all heroes do. Controllers are not the only ones with holds. Every AT has a status effect power that you need a break-free to counter. Every AT does not have the ability to stack Hide + Stealth without aide. Every AT does not have a single attack that is 7/8's unresisted damage that also knocks off two toggles.

I'm sure stalkers have more defeates in PvP than dominators...but that's not disproving anything. The point that Buffy makes...and that I emphatically agree with is that stacked Inviso+Massive Damage = Not Fun...unless you are the one doing it.

It might be fun once...or twice...but this a good 70%-90% of what PvP has boiled down to...avoiding stalkers. PvP could be so much more and so much richer. I can't see how letting stalker completely dominate PvP makes any financial sense.

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you use now when trying to explain to me how the set was balanced.

[/ QUOTE ] I have never said the set was balanced. So your entire post is moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between trying to balance a set, the method of balancing a set and actually creating a set that is "balanced".

Your response to what I wrote is thus short and pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]Your original post compared me to people who attacked you for suggesting improvements. I have attacked no one for suggesting improvements. You have repeatedly accused me of attacking people for trying to improve the set and I have done no such thing, nor have you produced a single quote to that extent.

There is a difference in defending myself against people who are also trying to improve the set and attacking people for trying to improve the set. As such your post is inaccurate and pointless.

EDIT:
If anyone wants to debate this anymore with me...let's do it through PM's...this thread needs to die.

[ QUOTE ]
This statement is in fact not true.

[/ QUOTE ] The guides that Iv'e seen say the level range is identical for Tenacious and Heroic, the differenc is the spawn size. When going through both missions tonight...even the one which spawned the boss in one and the Lt's in the other...the mobs were exactly the same levels.

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That I'm slotting def-debuff in as soon as I find someone selling me magic def debuff SOs.

[/ QUOTE ] The Magic store in Talos will sell you magic -Def debuff SO's.

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The second level of difficulty is the exact same level of mobs as the first....the spawns are bigger. So claiming the the "second dificulty[sic]" level bosses are a show stopper means the first level ones would be a show stopper, which means you are lying i.e. Making stuff up.


[/ QUOTE ] i'll have to eat a little crow on this one M_E. I only solo on Heroic when I'm trying to finish story arcs before leveling. The vast majority of my Heroic and Tenacious mission have been on teams, so I haven't finished any story arcs on Tenacious. I tried two missions and in one...neither diff had a boss. In another, one had a PP lt, the other a PP boss. Clearly you were not "making stuff up" about bosses on Tenacious. Apologies.

As I said in my above post, due to our vastly different approaches to this game, I'm not going try and rebut your position on TA, even if you attack mine.

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When you kick up to Tenacious, you start to see bosses at the end where before you saw Lts.

[/ QUOTE ] I haven't seen bosses on Tenacious when soloing. When I see bosses on Heroic...they are the same level as the bosses in Tenacious. If some of the story arcs have bosses on Tenacious and not in Heroic...then that makes more sense. I haven't seen that. If that's what the engine is doing...then I owe M_E an apology. I'll be checking that out in the future.

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By the way, your "[sic]" was a misquote (kind of ironic)...

[/ QUOTE ] A typo on the Internet...what a scoop!

EDIT:
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Were you defensive that you got it wrong, was that why you called Brasswire a jackass?


[/ QUOTE ] No. I actually read into M_E's post a little. For some reason I thought she was talking about the bosses being too difficult because they were higher in level. The reason why is becuse she said she slotted accuracy in Acid Arrow and couldn't solo the bosses. Arcana has pointed out that bosses don't have any higher intrinsic defense than minions. So it comes across to me as: "despite putting accuracy in Acid Arrow, which debuffs defense, I still can't hit the higher level bosses on Tenacious." Of course she was just talking about bosses period..and may have been lamenting the -res of Acid Arrow not being enough. I don't know.

I called Brass out because he insinuates that I don't know Heroic doesn't have bosses solo. Heroic has bosses...when you have teams. My statement in regards to M_E was that the bosses on Heroic and Tenacious are the same in difficulty but not intended to refute the existance of them. But as you pointed out, M_E is talking about soloing in which case Ten sometimes has bosses where Heroic doesn't. My error was not being clear on what M_E was talking about....which was my error. Technically, I thought she was talking about something she wasn't and that is on me.

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Don't accuse people of lying if you don't even know what you're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] Did I say that bosses spawned anywhere jackass? No. I'm showing by extension that that whatever M_E thinks are bosses in Tenacious, the are the same that are in Heroic. And for the record, I have seen bosses spawn in large teams on Heroic.

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Don't accuse people of lying if you don't even know what you're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] Don't accuse people of saying something they aren't.

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I had mentioned in passing that my dark/rad and TA/A both forgo accuracy enhancements

[/ QUOTE ] No...you responded to a tangent started by Blue in which he said...

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In which case :

Radiation can debuff defense to the point where accuracy enhancements are unneeded against purple-con mobs. Trick Arrow's doesn't seem to.


[/ QUOTE ]
I assumed he meant for a team...in which case I sarcastically responsed that nobody removes their acc enhancements because Rads have RI. Others challenged this on a solo basis. Since I haven't replaced the +Acc enhancment on my Rad/Rad for four levels, I conceded that with RI slotted, you don't need +Acc as a soloer.

You came along and claimed you were soloing on Rugged without any acc enhancements...let's look at some of your statements:

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My TA slots acc in acid arrow, and can't solo the second dificulty due to encountering bosses

[/ QUOTE ] The second level of difficulty is the exact same level of mobs as the first....the spawns are bigger. So claiming the the "second dificulty[sic]" level bosses are a show stopper means the first level ones would be a show stopper, which means you are lying i.e. Making stuff up.

You then said this:
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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.

[/ QUOTE ] and my entire comment was "lmao...ya, sure ya do." In other words...I challenge your definition of soloing.

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I had mentioned in passing that my dark/rad and TA/A both forgo accuracy enhancements, at which point he (she?) began calling me a lier.

[/ QUOTE ] Wrong.

You responded and said:

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Rad Blast's -defense stacks with it's self, so if I hit once, I keep hitting.

[/ QUOTE ] This is the bold faced lie. THIS is the quote I singled out and accused you of lying through your teeth. Go back and reread the thread. Don't try and act like I was denying how you slotted or what you had your setting on. Once you hit ...you do not "keep on hitting" +2's with no accuracy.

Based on your other posts, I am not at all surprised you have no accuracy in your attacks and are attempting to solo +2's. I did not accuse you of lying about those things. I do not believe you solo'd Heracles unless you used a tray full of inspirations for just that battle.

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Base accuracy of 75% right?

[/ QUOTE ] Not against +2's.

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It takes about the same length of time as my rad/rad

[/ QUOTE ] So with RI, EF, and AM, your Rad/Rad doesn't finish fights any faster than your Dark/Rad? Why do I suddenly believe you are telling the truth...

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...and about 2/3 the time my scrappers take to solo each mission.

[/ QUOTE ] So now you claim your dark/rad...with no +Acc takes 2/3'rds the time as your scrapper? Again....having seen your slotting on your Dark/Rad...I can't say this suprises me.

M_E...at this point I will decline from debating with you. I'm not ignoring you...I just think you and I are on different wavelengths about this game. You're entitled to your playstyle as much as I am entitled to mine. Good luck to you.

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you use now when trying to explain to me how the set was balanced.

[/ QUOTE ] I have never said the set was balanced. So your entire post is moot.

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and telling people that think it needs some tweaks/work that they just suck at the set.

[/ QUOTE ] This is a lie. I've said the set is great if you are skilled. To that end people have told me I was wrong. My response is that you lack the requisite skill.

No where...and no place...has this anything to do with whether or not a person is calling for an improvement. I have made comments that giving TA a perma-sticky-anchorless-debuff is too powerful. That's my opinion, nothing else.

Accusing me "hating" people who want to improve the set is a bold faced lie. Either retract that statement or I'll just ignore your posts.

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For the record, I play a Rad/Rad on a team who runs on Unyielding.

[/ QUOTE ] And I have a Rad/Rad as well...who has all red enhance his attacks. I know EXACTLY what /Rad can do with zero accuracy enhancements. I also have a Dark/Dark...so if ME is soloing on Rugged with no Acc in her attakcs:

1) It takes her a ridiculously inordinate amount of time, in which case her post is an attempt to mislead...tantamount to lying.

2) She's fighting on Rugged against stale missions...in which case she's lying.

3) She's using insights in a majority of battles...in which case is identical to a lie.

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At that time I was low level, and BARELY noticing any difrance.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not surprised...because based on your posts...you're clueless. The value of PGA is the same regardless of your level.

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I've seen little credable tests for it's actual value eather.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...because it's sooooooo difficult to test it yourself before running your mouth that it's 5%. Can you do subtraction and division?

You have no idea what you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from running your mouth like you do know what's up. In school they have a way to deal with it. They give you an F. You get an F in TA.

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First of all Here is a screenshot

[/ QUOTE ] Let's go on Test right now and let me see you solo your Rugged missions without acc. Let's see how long it takes...

oh please oh please let me see you solo Heracles with that build.

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lways the hater. The more you comment, the more you really look like you don't know this game.

[/ QUOTE ] You mean like claiming your Rad corrupter was close to flooring +3's with RI?

What's funny about your comment is you and the other TA morons are doing all the hating. I'm the one who's enjoying the set and singing its praises and you're the one trying to attack me.

But accusing me of being the hater...projecting your mindset on to me...would be par for the course with the rest of the delusional statements you've made.

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Yes I actualy do. Rad Blast's -defense stacks with it's self, so if I hit once, I keep hitting.

[/ QUOTE ] Just lie through your teeth hunh? I have a rad. The -def is on the order of like 5% or so. Without acc enhancements...you don't "keep on hitting." You're lying, plain and simple. I've seen some of your other posts and you don't know up from down. You claimed PGA was a 5% debuff in another TA/A thread.

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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.

[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always the hater. The more you comment, the more you really look like you don't know this game.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.

SA

[/ QUOTE ]What should be QFT is the number of [censored] lies told in this thread by people who must be getting paid to exaggerate.

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My dark/rad defender doesn't slot accuracy in attacks, and solos the third dificulty.

[/ QUOTE ] lmao.....sure ya do.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm only accusing you of saying this:


[/ QUOTE ] Like the possibly tongue-in-cheek assertion of me doing a "happy dance" too early, you misinterpreted the point of my posing the question. The idea that RI could be better than DN had already occured to me for justifications similar to what Blue had stated. I wanted to see if he would counter with them. I also wanted to see if he would acknowledge, at least on some level that RI should not be better than DN unless there was some reason for it.

Why did I want this? Because that is the entire basis for understanding why any of the powers are the way they are...the reason behind it. Whether people agree with the rationale is one thing, but first we have to agree on what the reason(s) are.

I most certinaly did not believe Bone's contention that he was "close to floor"ing +3's with RI. Of course, there is some question of what he means by "close to floor."

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One more thing, before I decided to log out

[/ QUOTE ] I was on Test with my three slotted -acc RI. No question that 3 slotted it is close to cap on minions. One guy missed about 72 times straight. On average they hit about 1/25.

I tested this on some +2's...definitely not capping. hit me about 1/7. Most I saw was a streak of 19 straight misses.

As a general thought (not directed at you):
The question you have to ask yourself is how do you reconcile RI flooring minions in light of the devs nerfing +DEF sets so that +0's would be a challenge? Letting RI completely floor minions woudl seem to be inconsistent with the changes to /SR for example.

The answer is undoubtedly one of two things...
1) There have a reason

2) They have no reason...they haven't thought about it/addressed it with respect to RI.

Let's just take a peak at what #1 might be.....I went to test RI out on some +0 Green Inkmen. I put it on queue as I flew in from overhead...so it registered on them before they saw me. Immediately, they both hit me with energy melee attacks and knocked off my toggle. For the next 30 seconds..this kept happening. Every time I'd get the toggle up...they stun me and knock it off. I went red standing there playing this game. I had to run around healing myself before I could risk the activation time casting this power. Getting chain stunned by +0 minions made RI, let alone EF, completely worthless. Against a large group of +2 Green inkmen I had no shot at survival unless I hovered above them out of melee.

I tried using RI on some even level BP in DA. Only got about 2/3's of the mobs with RI. The Avalanche Shaman hit me with snow storm and froze me away from anchor who kept firing from range. Mean while some of them marched up, outside the range of the anchor, and put me down at their leisure.

Now, I could have escaped with TP, used LR and CC, or TP'd the anchor right next to me (though I think TP Foe is interruptable), but people on here want to act lik RI is some sort of "I win" button. It's not.

I'll quote myself where I said that when you get RI and EF on all the mobs, they are "undeniably better". How you balance toggle/anchor against anchorless/click is a subjective call...not an objective one.

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Darkest Night is and should be 'weaker' - it's necessary to make up for the large amount of tohit debuffs available to the rest of the powerset.

[/ QUOTE ] If RI is in fact 30+% base...then this was my thought as well as for the justiifcation. FS + Shadow Fall + DN would probably stack to a higher debuff than RI.

In addition, the devs may also have felt that since Rad has two anchor debuffs, they toggles had to be really good to compensate for their drawbacks. DN only has the one anchor. FS was, at one point, perma and anchorless. Far superior, imo, to EF as a second debuff power. That power was so good, I quit using DN altogether.

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You seem to be willing to disregard testing because you don't like the numbers.

[/ QUOTE ] I didnt' disregard it at all. I have not seen it. I'm asking Blue if he thinks, from a design perspective, that RI would basically be twice as good as DN. Don't accuse me of an attitude I do no have.

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Its actually rather odd that you seem to be simultaneously trying to argue that RI's debuff is not really all that good, relative to flash arrow, because of its mechanical constraints, and simultaneously too powerful, because of its numerical strength.


[/ QUOTE ] That's almost dishonst. I've never once come close to saying RI is "not really all that good." Even making such an assertion is bad faith. What I've said is that RI is constrained in a way that FA is not. That when RI is on "none" of the mobs for a significat time, a power like FA can be equal or even superior. I even gave the edge to RI in my last Rad/ vs TA/ comparison.

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and simultaneously too powerful, because of its numerical strength.


[/ QUOTE ] I have a hard time believing that RI would be nearly double the strength of DN.

So please don't go ascribing a bogus position to me.

Your post reaffirms why I find you contemptible, but let me spell it out.

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the only statements you put forth for this address the method of the debuffs—that they're clicks rather than toggles.

[/ QUOTE ] Oversimplified. The method difference creates cascade benefits and avoids cascade failures of Toggles. If a sticky, click, debuff can be applied on permanent basis, then it is far far far superior to one that requires a toggle and an anchor. You and others simply want to wave this aside. It's specifically because TA does not have to rely on a toggle and anchors that should require the debuffs to be objectively less powerful. The balance that results is based on the context of the game. Notice that the devs adjusted the values after the set was released. This should indicate that the devs needed to see the set in action to determine how to balance TA against the others.

You don't think they balanced it? You think they took the "cheap" way out...good for you.

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As far as mezzing goes, if you get to have indiscriminate knockback users in your example, I get to have Clear Mind being kept up on me in mine, and the toggles don't drop.


[/ QUOTE ] More of your pathetic attempts at logical reasoning. First off, Solar Flare and Gleeming Blast cause radial knockback period. You can not channel or direct where the mobs go. To simply use the power hamstrings anchor debuffs...regardless.

Second, you don't get to bring in Clear Mind as an answer to my knockback issue. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Mezzing is resultant from the enemies you face, not your teammates.

Third, on teams where you don't have knockback using teammates, you don't get to avoid mezzing.

Fourth, there is no available mechanism in the game where your counter is even an option. One does not get a free Clear Mind with every energy blaster.

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You may as well say that since people run out of line of sight for heals, that's a problem with the Empathy set

[/ QUOTE ] More ridiculous logic. It's a problem with every set isn't it? The one exception is kinetics which you can technically heal someone without seeing them. And this is fundamental to what balances Trans with TG. The method of implementation allows a kineticist to heal from a distance and avoid collateral damage (though it does have drawback in that you have to be close to get healed). Depending on your teamates, Kin can be a much better choice than Dark. Context.

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"Anyone who doesn't think the set is great has no skill at the game."

[/ QUOTE ] Except I never said that. You've misqouted me and that amounts to fraud. I've also clarified what it was I was saying and had one of my posting rivals agree that TA takes more skill to play effectively.

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those other sets which do the debuff job better overall also have at least two of the following in each set: heal, buff, rez.


[/ QUOTE ] So out march the strawmen. From the start, I've acknowledged that Dark/Dark and Rad/Rad should perform better on average than TA/A. But keep crying about how dark and rad is better and the world is so unfair.

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Everyone who has posted on these forums on the subject seems to have the same opinion, except for Mieux.

[/ QUOTE ] The strawmen march on. I've repeatedly said D/D and R/R are arguably better. But like so many other things about the game, you ignore that which does not support your agenda. You'd rather get your way than be enlightened.

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You also claimed that I didn't feel Glue Arrow would be balanced unless it was permanent.

[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to show me that specific quote. What I said was that any change that allowed GA to be permenant ...would be too good. Please show me were I say you demanded GA be permanent.

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What I believe is that they simply didn't put the time and effort into balancing a new set that it deserved.


[/ QUOTE ] And exactly what constitutes the necessary time and effort? In fact, I'll argue that for you, it has nothing to do with time and effort but result. You haven't the foggiest clue how much time they spent trying to balance TA. But since, in your opinion, GA is not balanced, they must not have spent the time and effort. And you wonder why I find you contemptible...

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If this were a technical impossibility, due to the nature of how Glue Arrow works, then a response in the "Dev Response Thread" would have been called for

[/ QUOTE ] This is an entirely different issue. Whether and to what degree the devs have to respond does not speak to their efforts or issues with resolving any imbalances that they see in TA. But clearly you'll grasp at any straws you can to make your point.

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It does not, however, mean that the concerns of everyone else are invalid or unwarranted.

[/ QUOTE ] When the concerns are based on completely erroneous understanding of the actual powers and a refusal to acknowledge problems associated with other sets....it most certainly does. And this is the basis on which I generally reject you as an authority on the matter. Your inabillty and continual refusal to acknowledge and concede off-setting factors undermines your credibility and objectivity.

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That, or you just like telling everyone they're "unskilled" for some reason.

[/ QUOTE ] You and one or two others does not constitute everyone. I suspect that Arcana is quite skilled at TA.

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That's cause you can't do math.


[/ QUOTE ] An attempt at an insult? hahaha...except it has nothing to do with math. I don't have the purple patch numbers by bedside, nor have I memorized the +rank modifiers.

But you are right...I should have remembered that the modifier would have to be higher than 70% to affect plus mobs. I think you and Bone_Machine need to have a discussion on his ability to "close to floor" +3's with his /Rad Corruptor.