Mieux

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You keep making ridiculous statements ...

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You mean like this:

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claiming that Kineticists can't stay alive long enough to buff

[/ QUOTE ] ?

Once again, a completely bogus argument and assertion. Nothing of the sort was said. What's ridiculous is that Punchy suggest the counter to the ubquitous slows in PvP are easily answered by teaming. As if that includes a free Kineticists. Kineticists, in and of themselves are rare in PvE...let alone PvP. Kenetics defenders have the hardest time defendering themselves in team PvP...I know...I have lvl 40 which I've PvP'd a ton.

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It is a reasonable expectation that a good team will have a kineticist for many of their team builds.

[/ QUOTE ] You don't PvP much on the Hero side do you? I spent 4 hours in Siren's the other day...and I saw all of one Kineticist...on my team or any other.

All of this is off topic. The idea that AS will be "virtually impossible" to use if there was some 5-10 ft range limit is wholly unnsupported from countless hours PvPing.

Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.

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I think I can say without a doubt that you don't PvP much do ya?

[/ QUOTE ] Then you've just exposed your lack of insight.

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I have to call you on it. Tar patch != trip mines. There. That's it.


[/ QUOTE ] Sigh...so now this is a discussion about Trip Mine versus Tar Patch? Going to bring up the +2 bosses next? Your attempting to identify Trip Mines as the issue is bogus. The issue you brought up is TP Foe. You were complaining about ONE build...I repeat ONE build having the option of TP Foeing you into Trip Mines. Except guess what? TP FOE is not part of /Devices. So if you want to argue about TP Foe...you're argument blows up in your face because EVERYONE has access to TP Foe....

and you know what's really funny...only Brutes and Stalkers have any inherent resistance to it. No CoH hero gets inherent resistance to TP foe like /EA does. Everyone else need to find a Kinetics Defender. Oh yeah, that's fair. Next.

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GET A TEAM. Get speed boosted!

[/ QUOTE ] Now you're looking clucless. "GET A TEAM. Get speed boosted." Lol...because Speed Boost is part of every players power choices. Becaues every team I'm on, not only has Kin, but they remain alive and well all the time to keep Speed Boost on everyone without fail. Great argument. Your Einsteinian solution to the ubuiquitous Slows is "Get Speed Boosted." Perhaps you should log in to Siren's as a Hero and tell me how that strategy works out for you.

Very typical from the pro-stalker camp.

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Not to mention that superjump, one of the most common travel powers in pvp heavily negates slows.

[/ QUOTE ] Ummm...yeah...I leave you with your own words:

"you have a profound lack of understanding "

EDIT:
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But most of us will agree it has nothing to do with your angry ranting.


[/ QUOTE ] My tone often gives this impression. In truth, I laugh out loud at your type of respones. The logic you guys use to defend your positions I put on par with Bushisms....it's like watching people argue on Jerry Springer.

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Wait a second. You have someone STANDING AROUND after being ASd and placated long enough for AS to recharge?

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe you're coming late to show punchy.... but you dont' have to be stationary to get AS'd Hello?!!!? What do you think this thread is about.

What's remarkedly stupid is the idea that any time you get AS'd, you're expected to run for your life. yeah...great model for PvP.

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but you shouldn't be getting kills JUST with AS vs. anything else. Unless they're AFK or colossally stupid.


[/ QUOTE ] Maybe you out to try it on the hero side. Out of like 100 stalker deaths...2 have been caused by anything other than AS. And I am excluding AS+ET from EM as that is essentially a one-shot for anyone but the hyper vigiliant /regen.

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When you claim theydon't you come off as ignorant to actual gameplay facts and extremely opinionated.

[/ QUOTE ] When you take it to the extreme...sure. Cuz you know I mean they don't put a single slot in any other attack.

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Again... what? How can you equate being TPd into a mine field and being TPd into a tar patch by a MM? One allows you a chance to fight back. The other doesn't, most of the time.

Besides... if you were a scrapper, you're telling me you couldn't get out of the tar patch before they killed you? Or if you were a blaster you weren't able to come right back and 2-shot the MM?

And if we're speaking of buffs, where are -your- teammates? Where's a kineticist to give you a speed boost, so you could entirely ignore that tar patch? Or all those slow effects you suggest are SO very effective at getting you ASd in pvp?

[/ QUOTE ]And here come the non-squitors.

What next? Going to make some assertion about +2 bosses being relevant to this discussion?

You're talking about TP being unresisted. It's unresisted for BOTH sides. Sorry, the fact that ONE particular build..and only ONE particular build can use it to huge advantage is irrelevant to a discussion about an entire AT.

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Or if you were a blaster you weren't able to come right back and 2-shot the MM?


[/ QUOTE ] Well that logic should apply to your stalker too shouldn't it? Except that this whole tangent is irrelevant to the point.

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And if we're speaking of buffs, where are -your- teammates?

[/ QUOTE ] So frickin typical. What is with you guys loving to just change the topic and argue one nonsensical thing after another? We're not talking about buffs. We're talking about forcing stalkers to team just like they tell everyone else to team. It should work both ways.

Punchy...nvm. You're just going to keep on shifting the goal posts and argue some unrelated tangent. This is vintage stalker logic.

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You can't AS -> placate -> AS.

[/ QUOTE ] lol....umm...yes you can. Placate allows Hide to re-engage and you just wait for AS to recharge. Unless you are fightng /Regen or someone with Dull Pain...they aren't going to regain those lost HP's faster than AS recharges. And if you are going to argue they will be popping greens...then I'll say you can use Rages so you one-shot them...or in the new world order...easily kill them with a follow up attack a few seconds later....which will crit because of Placate.

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If you think a stalker can get by just on AS, without slotting their other attacks, then you are showing a profound lack of understanding of the stalker playstyle

[/ QUOTE ] I see the stalker playstyle..first hand. I have a stalker. I took my stalker in to BB and lvl 15 and was getting killed repeated cheese kills with DO's in just two attacks, one of which is AS. Didn't even have placate or status protection. Blaster/Scrappers/Defenders/Controllers...dog meat without a team.

And getting back to playstyle, stalkers rarely stick it out to scrap unless they think than can kill you in two or three attacks. They only other time I see them scrap in PvP is when the target is helpless.

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Where are the pool powers to prevent myself from getting tp's onto a mine patch?

[/ QUOTE ] They are in the same place as the ones that prevent me from getting TP'd into a MM's Tar Patch and army of darkness...m'kay?

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Where are the pool powers that stop chilling embrace from auto-interrupting my signature power?

[/ QUOTE ] Where is the power pool that actually let's a Tanker USE their inherent power? WHo says you have the right to AS anyone, anytime, anyplace you choose? AS is a specialized attack.

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For every AS that hits, I'd bet that there were 5 tries before that didn't work out they way they planned.

[/ QUOTE ] ZOMG!!!! You had to try five whole times before it worked?!??! That's just unacceptable. If only you had a bunch of other attacks to fall back on????

God forbid you should have to seek out the buffs and debuffs of a teammate to give you an advantage.

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What you are essentially saying, is that in a 1-on-1 fight, a Stalker should bring a Dom.

That is about all I'm able to glean from your post.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not surpirsed.

How about a Stalker should have to rely on more than Hide + BU +AS +Placate + AS for the easy win against a single target that knows the stalker is there?

Constant motion should be proof against AS. What a crime to require a stalker to have to actually slot some of his/her other attacks to win 1v1 fights?

You're uninformed...

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That 5% for a Scrapper doesn't really seem as real-world,

[/ QUOTE ] Claws, Katana, Broadsword, MA...have ONE attack that has a 15% chance to crit. Stalkers who have the same attacks have the SAME increased chance to crit. Since PvP is all about BURST damage...you're going to see the big hitting crit attacks more than others. The 5% crit chance is the scrapper inherent. It is NOT additive.

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You can definitely count on doing more damage with a Scrapper/Brute in the long run than you could with 3 Acc/3 Dam Stalker.


[/ QUOTE ] Would be kind of ridiculous if Stalkers had both higher burst damage AND higher sustained DPS wouldn't it? Stalkers are about BURST damage. That's what matters in PvP...this thread is about PvP..not PvE.

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As for Defiance, If that Blaster just got AS'ed they are sure as heck going to be able to turn right around and smash the Stalker with quite a bit more damage than the Stalker could muster in response.

[/ QUOTE ] There are few blaster secondaries that can turn an AS into lemon-aide. Energy Manipulation is just one such Secondary. Nevertheless...you have to have the attack ready. You have to survive the AS...which assumes the stalker has not waited until you were already hit. You have to be expecting the stalker attack, or you many not get a chance to hit before the stalkers follow up kills you. You have to get the attack off before the stalker hits you with Placate.

The number of blasters that turn the tide on being AS'd...is exceedingly small. It is common...I repeat common to be standing in Siren's with a team of heroes...and periodically see the blaster get two shot before the team can react.

Ask yourself, if you're life depending on the average stalker winning the 1v1 or the average blaster....where would you put your money?

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Break Frees work both ways, though I see less Villains using them as one has to leave the zone to buy them, and folks don't want to lose their bounty just for purple pills.

[/ QUOTE ] My post is about Castle claiming that range check on the tail end of AS would make it "virtually impossible" for AS to be used in PvP. Slows...which are quite prevelant on the villain side, would allow many many AS's to work as normal. Break Frees do not counter Slow.

Even if they counter holds...a hold STILL detoggles you. That means you have to:

1) Hit the break free
2) Swtich back on your travel power
3) get more than 20' feet from your target before AS completes.

Any stalker who is teaming with doms/corrupters will have opportunities to AS someone who is held and pops a break free. They'll have far more just from the Slows...but all the squishies will be pretty easy to hold at some point in a battle.

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As far as the usefulness of hide, AoEs break it, +Per breaks it, CM breaks it, Terrorize breaks it, Leadership, etc.

[/ QUOTE ] Now your cluelessness exerts itself:
1) Stalkers currently have a massive defensive bonus to AoE attacks.

2) Terroize does not break Hide.

3) +Perception does not break Hide.

4) CM does not break hide

5) There is no Leadership power. There is Tactics...a tier 2 Leadership Pool power that grants +perception. See #3.

Being able to SEE a stalker does not break Hide. It just means you can attack them, provided you haven't been placated. If they hit you while in the Hidden state...they still crit...giving AS 7/8'ths unresistable damage and knocking off two toggles.

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Brute, actually.

[/ QUOTE ] I said you were "pro-stalker," I didn't say you were a stalker.

EDIT:
And once again, we have the disanalogies that infest the pro-stalker arguments:

The discussion about Break Frees was to show that Containment is unreliable in PvP. It is an entirely separate issue whether Break Frees eliminate the opportunity to AS someone who's been held. Perhaps a little teamwork between the Stalker and the Dom to identify who's going to be held???? God forbid stalkers should have to team.

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Unfortunately for Poison types, Reconstruction HAS to work this way. Sorry folks, it won't be changing.

[/ QUOTE ]Can you elaborate on why that is? Neutral on the issue, just interested, as I'm sure others are as well.

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So unless they have changed it in the meantime a Player is considered a boss.. which means its 15% for a scrapper crit.

[/ QUOTE ] No. Players are NOT considered bosses, evidenced by the fact that a SINGLE hold still holds anyone without status protection...AND....my hero stats does not report 15% for crits in PvP.

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So, what AT's are you teamed with when you PvP? How are squishies stacking enough mezzes to get through your inherent and buffed mezzed protection, not to mention BF's? If you aren't teaming or not getting buffed by a support character on your team, then you really don't have the understanding of how high level PvP works.

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Let me clue you in...

Infrigidate, Snow Storm, Tar Patch, Lingering Radiation....easily overcome any Slow resist in Quickness.

Once Slowed...you become stalker-bait. I can see them just fine when they come in to show me all their uber skillz. I just can't hit three of them fast enough, or reliably enough to stop from getting AS'd....then Scourge for teh win. And I have no problem with that.

And as for /regen scrappers...hahahaha. Brawl...and any single hold for the win.

Getting AS'd while in the course of super-jumping is bogus. Unequivocably.

Castle's rationalizeing isn't that it a range check twice is wrong..he attempts to falely categorize AS along with other normal melee attacks. He also claims it would be "virtually impossible" to pull off in PvP. I'm sorry, that's just false, and to maintain that, reveals a decidedly biased viewpoint on the issue.

Wonderful assesment. I guess crack smoking is a stalker passtime.

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As far as I can tell, the prerequisites for a Scrapper's Crit... is.. erm...


[/ QUOTE ] is umm... a 5% chance of working. Really really reliable in PvP...absolutely have to have that as a scrapper to PvP. God...I couldn't survive without that 5%.

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And for a Blaster's Crit is low hitpoints...


[/ QUOTE ] Do you know how ow your HP's have to be to make Defiance work? Do know how low before Defiance really makes tremondous difference? Kind of hard to use Defiance when you're mezzed.

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and for a Controller's Crit is the target under the effect of a Hold...


[/ QUOTE ] Too bad break-frees are cheap as hell, stalkers and brutes have mez protection, a host of Crptr powers offer status protection, and Sleep, Hold, and Immobilizie can be obtained from power pools. Provided you live long enough to do any damage after you have them held.

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During a full-on fight, how much of a Stalker's time is actually spent hidden?

[/ QUOTE ] Another totally sophist arguement. Hidden only works for one attack. The amount of time is irrelevant to how valuble or useful being HIdden is. But leave it to a pro-stalker to put forth an irrelevant argument. You guys specialize in the non-sequitor

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Please, go smoke that crack pipe somewhere else

[/ QUOTE ] Talk about smoking a crack pipe..

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Doms and controllers already scream about how ineffective their holds are

[/ QUOTE ] You're kind of brain dead aren't you? Do you know how my scrappers die in Siren's? Slows/holds from Dom's COrrupters...and then the opportune AS.

Corruptors/Doms are constantly holding blasters/defenders in PvP. They have some massive slows.

Yeah...i'm so supprised that yet another AT is screaming for more power. Proves nothing about how effective they really are. I constantly hear the defenders on my teams scream for us to kill the doms/corrupters. It also proves your delustional response is based on what others say and a complete lack of first hand knowlege about the truth.

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The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ] Come on Castle, that's an exaggeration. AS would work fine on people who were:

Held
Immobilized
Slowed - Caltops
Feared
Disoriented
Slept
Asleep at the switch
Engaging in Shadow Maul, Eagles Claw type animations

and a host of other situations. What it would do is force Stalkers to find dominators and corrupters to use those type of movement debuffers.

It would also put more value on powers like CAK, Impale, Focus, and other statusing powers in the stalker primaries. It would force stalkers to develop a more comprehensive set of tactics rather than Hide +AS + Placate + AS.

Forcing AS to check range twice is exactly what should be done.

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It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once

[/ QUOTE ] Ahem...if you want to give all other melee type of attacks 7/8's unresistable damage with a chance to knock off two toggles, then your position is valid. As it stands...AS already IS unique.

The whole point of the interrupt time of AS is that it isn't a quick strike. The fact that you dont' check range twice undermines that aspect. You essentially have an attack...that should require ideal conditions to use, that can be used in a split second. I, like many others, have been Super-Jumping non-stop, and still get AS'd as a stalker lands and initiates AS the second they land next to me. Bogus. As is not a normal attack. Please don't try to categorize it as such for convenience.

Honestly, I think eveyone but stalkers would be fine if you check range twice on normal attacks if it meant that AS could not longer hit you 3 blocks away.

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Not aimed at you, just any Stalker that preys on squishies.

[/ QUOTE ] Despite entering this thread on your side, my integrity demands that I disagree with this position. Squishies...namely defenders/corrupters, are immensily dangerous in PvP. RI, from a /Rad, is probably flooring everyone it touches, which means that RI from a Rad/ is flooring anyone who even looks at it.

I was PvPing in Siren's today...and the heroes were upon the villain base, having our way with them. Why? We had a bunch of people with tactics, and we had bunch of high level heroes exemped down. Lvl 22 Brute isn't much of a match for a lvl 50 BS/SR. Our team was like 7/8 Blaster/Scrapper....with one FF defender who did not have a single bubble power besides Dispersion...thanks bud.

Then....the corruptors showed up. Maybe three of them...totally turned the battles. I was getting RI and LR on me constantly. Then Snow Storm would get slapped on me and I was going nowhere in a hurry. Guess who showed up for dinner? (and I'm sure they thought it was their consummate skill that allowed them to get so many kills all of a sudden) The villains were able to force us right back to the hospital and kept us there. THen I told everyone to focus on the same target and start with the corruptors. Once we took out two or three of them...we routed the villains. The stalkers had no team concept of their own and couldn't kill steal the Corruptors victims any more. We routed them and most of the corrupters must have logged because the stalkers were helpless against a storm and triple stacked tactics.

The key was the squishies. The problem was that it was too easy to look for the red shield despite facing 10-14 villains. It was too easy for me to simply click "Info" and see which one had RI and which ones had Snow Storm and focus on those first.

But I have no problem with teams that focus on squishies. I have a problem with it being too easy to identify them amongst the Doms and MM's. Of course if you're saying stalkers are picking on defenders because they are two cowardly to take on tougher targets...that's a different issue.

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Definitely other villain AT's need some love though. Everyone plays stalkers on the villain side because the other villain AT's are inferior to the hero ATs

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting that you brought that up. How about this....because stalkers do not need to team...they rob the other Villain AT's of linchpin for a viable? Did it ever occur to you that a villain team, where the stalker actually helped the team, might be as capable as a hero team?

What if Stalkers couldn't stack Stealth and AS didn't work if the target moved more than 5 ft? Stalkers might have to rely on corruptors and dominators more to set up their AS's. They might need Brutes to disract scrappers and tanks. They might use MM's as bait (which they already do..but not teamed).

The way I see it, the CoV AT's could do a great job as a team. AS + Scourge for teh win. But stalkers don't need to team. In fact, they force the heroes to team..and they still don't have to team.

The other AT's don't suck...they can be quite capable at higher levels. The fact is, many heroes are exemped 50's with more slots...and many of the heroes team out of necessity. Corrupter debuffs make a huge difference in PvP...but I guess you might not ever know that as a stalker.

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Dent 'em enough? What do you mean?


[/ QUOTE ] Defiance

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hmmm 1% HP only means 1 HP against som1 with 100 HP total, guess it wouldnt work =/

[/ QUOTE ] lol...umm no. The changes only protect you from being one-shotted if you have 100% of your hit points..not if you have 99.999999% of your hit points. One tick of caltrop damage means you can be insta-killed.

You've misunderstood the implications of what I wrote.

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if you can AS me with my DP on and get me to 1% I'll buy you a beer. Since DP gets my regen to 2333 with Portal Jockey and FPR badges

[/ QUOTE ]How about they just watch your health bar for DP to drop and then kill you?

Nevertheless, I am curious how Caltrops will not be used as a work around. Trops don't break Hide. Drop trops..wait for the first tick of damage...BAM! You've just circumvented the change by doing 1 HP of damage with power that prevents your target from getting away while you set up AS.

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Don't bring up inspirations, if you don't want the same argument used against you.


[/ QUOTE ] Oh brother. This is why I stay out of stalker forums. Break-Frees can be used while you are being held. Insights and Lucks and Sturdies are of no use ot you while you are face-down.

You're doing the typical thing I see in the stalker forums. You argue inconsistent points and march out endless armies of strawmen. Someone refutes A and you switch to B. Someone refutes B and you argue C. Someone refutes C and you argue A again...even tho it was already shot down. It's pointless.

You haven't offered one valid counter to the fact that people don't enjoy the situation. Instead, you want to turn this into a balance discussion.

"Oh yeah...well, Stormies can push you around with Hurricane."

yeah...and they can also bee seen from outer space.

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but I have been ambushed by heroes running multiple group +stealth powers

[/ QUOTE ] We already dealt with this haven't we? No one is complaining when a group takes them out. But typical to the stalker forums, we just go around in circles.

The situation as it currently stands isn't fun for the majority of people who want to PvP. Cryptic has to be blind not to see that they are losing money because of it. I have people in my SG who got their toons to 50 and were holding out for PvP. It came with stalkers and they quit.

I am playing this game at this point...for one reason: Base Raids. If stalkers totally cheese out base raids like they cheese out PvP zones...I'm gone. The people I play with regularly, will have one less reason to stick around.

It is totally within Cryptics power to offer the players a more enjoyable PvP experience.

I don't care if you think the situation is "fair." There are lot of games that are fair, but I'm not paying $15 a month to play them. This isn't fun.

I'm done here.

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Notice all those things are PvE-specific.



[/ QUOTE ] lol..even if that were some definitive truth, do you think PvP should be exempt from "fun?" I know..let's turn the tables. Let's make it so Stalker have no -perception in PvP. Now, only stalkers won't have fun. If you don't think there is a problem with an large segment of players not having fun, so long as some are, then this change should get no complaints from you...unless of course you are biased...

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A lot of crap also falls under 'not fun', y'know.

[/ QUOTE ] That's exactly right. And when the devs have noticed that it affects a LOT of people, they do something about it. Let's take a quick survey across the player community...not the stalker community, of who's for and against the current state of stalkers....

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Lucks, Insights, and Sturdies. I'm sure you can piece it together.


[/ QUOTE ] Maybe you can piece it together for me...because they only last 60 seconds. Last I checked, Hide+Stealth lasted all night long. You do the math.

[ QUOTE ]
Or because a Controller Held you in the midst of a mob... or a Stormie shoved you into it... or a Blaster TPed you into them.


[/ QUOTE ] Kind of hard to get held when you can't be seen isn't it? Do you have the option of not engaging someone near mobs? Gee..I think you do.

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It also isn't fun when you get permaheld

[/ QUOTE ] Correct...and they added both Break Frees and hold suppression. This totally handicaps Controllers and Dominators...and they still allow it. Why because you're exactly right, getting perma-held is not fun. Are you telling me that getting inviso-ganked is somehow fun?

[ QUOTE ]
when you get jumped by a huge team when solo pvping

[/ QUOTE ] Bogus argument. No one is complaining about fighting teams as a solo toon. But how ironic, you know what I have seen them complain about? That heroes are always in teams to deal with stalkers so it makes it really hard on all the other non-stalker villains to PvP.

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when you get tpfoed into tripmines

[/ QUOTE ] And Castle has specifically stated this is a problem.

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and when mobs accidentally kill you. Point?

[/ QUOTE ] Mobs don't "accidentally kill you." They intend to kill you. They kill you because you aggro'd them. It doesn't happen accidentally.

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Getting ganked by people isn't fun. Let's remove PvP.


[/ QUOTE ] Getting defeated in PvE isn't fun, let's remove PvE.

You are employing sophistry. Nonsense arguements.

Those things you identified as not being fun, were addressed by the devs. And lets' add to that list shall we? People complained that being rooted by Unyielding wasn't fun...what did they do? People complained that the harder bosses and lt's weren't fun, what did they do? People complained that getting one-shot by AV's and Bosses wasn't fun, What did they do?

Guess what they should address next?

[ QUOTE ]

The game IS NOT balanced for solo play, and IT WILL be broken when you look at it from a 1vs1 perspective!


[/ QUOTE ] Balance is irrelevant. It isn't "fun" when you can't see your opponent. Please clue into that. This is about "fun" not balance. Argue you all you want that stalkers are balanced. I don't care. PvP is a shadow of what it could because people don't enjoy getting ganked by invisible attackers.