Mieux

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That ludicrous. Have you even seen an AV, or fought one before?

[/ QUOTE ] Bingo! It is ludicrous...but your the one who said fighting 3 is fighting three regardless of what lvl you are at.
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The experience of fighting three level 50 minions is identical to fighting three level 20 minions.

[/ QUOTE ] Really, go exemp to lvl 20 and pull all your enhancements and fight three minions. Now go to lvl 50, pull all your enhancments and fight three minions. Tell me how it works outs for you.
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Actually, you seem to be having serious difficulty with the concept of "zero" so I wouldn't attempt anything more complex yet. When my tank engages a group that her defense is completely solid on, but can't kill, her "ultimate ability to survive" is not zero, its one, or certainty. Her risk exposure is zero, or near zero. As I said the first time, its actually beginning to amaze me that you are willing to assert with conviction statements that anyone who thinks about them for more than two seconds can prove to be false.


[/ QUOTE ] lol...you don't even understand this example do you Arcana? Read what I wrote again. read what it is in response to.

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You say you agree with "this." Here's the "this" you were referring to, since you excised the quote yet again:


[/ QUOTE ] No. This is what you want me to have responded to. His statment about blastesr was in the same sentenced about a challenge on Heroic. I agree with the second part of that statement and specifically repeated it in my own. Your insistence on focusing on the other part is your being argumentative. Even after I point this out to you, you are trying to tell me what I meant. hahahahahaha.
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Maybe you should try it once or twice first before you make such a statement

[/ QUOTE ] I've tried it. But you aren't even parsing my words correctly. I thnk part of the problem is you want me to argue A so you can argue against it. You don't have an argument against B which is what I am arguing but you have one against A so you are looking for ways to construe A regardless of what I say.

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Yes, you DID pick the easiest class.

[/ QUOTE ] No. Tankers are the easiest class. They start off a little slow...but they pick up speed. Fire/* is probably the easiest period.
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Please. This is an internet argument board.


[/ QUOTE ] Lol....true but discussions resultent from people reacting out offer little enlightenment.
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Once again Mieux: You are not all players. You are not even a remotely large percentage of all players.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you and Scott are hung up on a misconception. I want the Invinc setting to be a death march for a veteran. I want to heroic to be challenging to a first time player. Challenging =/= death march. You two are fixated on this and hell bent on combining the two concepts into one idea that the entire game has to be a death march. A father and his 8 year old daughter should be able to log on and do heroic missions with risk and success.

Games which offer no risk of failure are not games...they are by definition exercises. Scott says he likes the game because of the story arcs. This game would have failed the first day if all you did is go around and click on story arcs. This game would have failed the first month if the mobs couldn't kill you ..at all.

Risk v Reward

Risk v Reward

Risk v Reward

We have plenty of reward in the 30's...just very little risk. The devs understand it. Do you?

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If you would, I dunno, not play a SCRAPPER, then maybe you would feel like you need a blaster a little bit more.


[/ QUOTE ] You think hunh? Well, i have two defenders at lvl 28...neither feel like they need blasters. I do need tanks. I love tanks. They don't die and the suck up aggro. My both my def's do their mission on Invinc...but I don't solo them...tho I have solo'd several missions on Invinc with my Kin/psi after the scrappers I've teamed with quit out of cowardice. I can't beat Named bosses that mez..to much chain mezzing. Tanker to the rescue...low lvl scrappers are far to squishy.

You're right about one thing tho. I am complaining that the challenge I enjoyed in the teens is conspicuosly absent once we get SO's.
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But you love dying and a challenge, Mieux.

[/ QUOTE ] Hypbole to be sure. I love challenge. The greater the challenge the greater the sense of accomplishment. But there is a difference between a game that provides you a challenge and a game that is simply abusive.

I loved my first Respec so much because it it was so damn. I didn't think the game knew how to truly challenge the players will to succeed. And let me burst your bubble...everyone on that team saw it through to the end except one person...the blaster. He quit. Claimed all he did was die...nevermind the fact that he routinely tried to start battles with AoE before the tanker tried to grab aggro. I'm sure he blames the game.

Let me burst your bubbles about how people respond to challenges when they can't complain...

A while back, I did a CoT mission at around lvl 18 with Kin/Psi. It was one of those missions where when you die, you go to the prison cell. The long and short of this mission is that after 3 players quit an 8 man team for various reasons...and two after their first death...the remaining 4 of us hit the debt cap together finishing that mission. In fact, there was a SK tanker who saw myself, a blaster, and scrapper refuseing to quit...despite repeated death after death...and joined in of his own volition.

Here is what I think: When people have no one to complain to...they suck it up and rise to the occassion. This is the legacy of our survival as species...perserviing. Early man didn't have a dev they could go complain to because lions could run faster and had sharper claws. The challenge is what pushes you to become more than you are or thought you could be. The desire to improve who we are is integral to what we are. Games that tap into that desire for self-improvement and ability to rise to a challenge are games that will be remembered..and more importantly, played.

The alternative is to provide immersion. This is why Striga is so good. Though the challenges isn't any different, the immersion is better. I'd definitely trade challenge for immersion, but immersion is hard to create.

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No, it is you, Mieux, who is the player that is unwilling to self-nerf.

[/ QUOTE ] Scott, get a grip. If you think expecting playings to self-nerf to find a challenge in your game is viable....you have no future in game design.

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I think that calling for nerfs helps no one and hurts everyone.


[/ QUOTE ] A myopic view of nerfing. Scott, what happens when the devs make a mistake and make a power too powerful? They should just raise every single power/AT up to compensate. The idea that nerfing is NEVER an option is completely selfish and childish. THere are many posters who have the maturity to understand the need to tone things down. Nerfing....done right doesn't mean the nerf hurts all players universally

EXAMPLE:

The purple patch. The average/casual player is almost completely unaffected because he or she is not fighting +5's. The purple patch however was a global nerf.

You and so many others have this narrow, stilted, cramped view of how changes can be made or applied. You over generalize about impacts and convienently misconstrue counter arguments to support an emotional reaction.

The players after we get SO's are out of balance with the enemies we fact ...at least until lvl 37...per the devs design/vision. You agree the game can be too easy. How do they solve that?

sigh....one erroneous deduction after another.
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You picked the easiest class, then complained it was boring when you got the things that made your class come into its own.

[/ QUOTE ] I didn't pick the easiest class. I picked the solo class. Picking the solo class does not mean that soloing should be a walk through the park. Not picking the soloing class means that you should have a much more difficult time soloing. You're not supposed to be taking out even lvl bosses as blaster or defender or controller with nearly the efficicency or ease as a scrapper. And the scrapper isn't supposed to be able to do it reliable. Go read the devs posts since day one. You conveniently ignore this.

The core problem is SO's and how they boost damage. Jack as admitted to this point blank. They over estimated the availability of SO's. Jack is suggesting a way to decrease their prevelance. This ammounts to a nerf of all powers, but damage will be the most effected as it is the most commonly slotted. Dammit_Man...your grasp of what is going on in this game is severely clouded by your own emotional reaction.

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It's not flawed to ask the hardcore and the leet (of which you belong to) to nerf themselves to still enjoy a challenge in a game they love.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes it is. You play a game for the challenge...to overcome obstacles. Asking players to self-impose gimpness to enjoy your game is idiotic. It's like telling a right handed teninis player to play left handed so he'll be challenged by your AI. I'll just quit and go play a game that demands I bring all my skills and abilities to succeed. This is a very fundamental aspect of psychology DM. Failing to grasp this points means we can't have any meaningful discussion.

The other factor you fail to acknowledge is the disparity a player can encounter. My own missions are silly. Joining a TF with +4's is not. Nerfing my self to enjoy one aspect will preclude me from even being viable in another.
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You said the first 22 levels were popular, which is flat out wrong.

[/ QUOTE ] You have a comprehension issue. I said I enjoyed the first 22 lvls the most...now the first 2x because of Striga. I didn't say they were the most popular. I said the game is popular and enjoyed immensely as a result of the challenge people experience during the first 22 lvls. That challenge dissappears from about 26 or so on. Striga offers things that are enjoyable because those things are not dependent on being able to deal damage. Getting temp powers from Striga missions, the base itself...are exciting in themselves and enjoyment does not come from the challenge in the missions. If you can't understand what I am saying, then a discussion because futile.
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people really, really don't like enemies being made harder.

[/ QUOTE ] True...most people don't want to rise to the challenge. They'd rather complain. The fact is you experience an increase in difficulty. If you had just started playing, you wouldn't. Naturally people like you will complain. The question the devs are trying to determine is if a new player will find that it is too difficult or the just right. They didn't give specific reasons why the rolled back all the minion upgrades. They said it was because they "weren't seeing what they were looking for". They rolled back the bosses, and rightly so, because people would get stuck with mission they couldn't complete and couldn't delete. If they had put a way to dump mission in the game, we might still have the bosses.

DM, despite what you feel you should be able to do as a solo blaster, there is what the devs feel you should. The two don't match.
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Rubbish. I love blasters whenever I team, no matter the level.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know what school of logic you went to, but your love of blasters has ZERO relevance to whether they are needed. Because of the proliferation of slots and hence the ability to slot for damage, no AT is really needed to do missions. I've done Respec without every single class.
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if you honestly think CoH doesn't have the friendliest team dynamic you ever saw.

[/ QUOTE ] This is exactly what CoH has and the reason I enjoy it. I honestly don't know what post or poster you are referring to.

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I would absolutley utterly hate this game, and many others would too, if your missions were hard to do if you didn't happen to have a controller availible, or if there were no blasters in your level range currently LFT.

[/ QUOTE ] I completely agree. But this is what CoH has to balance. If no AT is really needed, than that AT doesn't have a role that is really unique or needed. The game has to make me feel like I really need a blaster, but still allow me to succeed without one. It means bridging the gap between people like you and me. That's a tall order and the reason why the deserve being well paid for figuring it out.

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Please tell me you're still enough on this plane of existence to where you realize you are a weirdo for thinking that.

[/ QUOTE ] Jesus man....Respec is supposed to be THE hardest mission at that point in your career. I was fighting +4's the WHOLE time...you know why I died? Only two of those deaths were actually in the Reactor mission...I was pulling for the team. Me, an /SR scrapper with ZERO AoE defense was Stealth/SS pulling +4 Assault bots. We had one person at lvl 28..the healer, and everyone else was below him...and you're going to tell me that the two deaths I suffered in the final run were too much?

You've misinterpreted. Invinc should be deadly. Heroic should provide some element of risk to the first time player. How you've turned my statement into bare-knuckle action is anyone's guess.

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You like challenge, then pick a class which, by definition of being best at soloing, needs no help. OF COURSE you got bored with your scrapper.


[/ QUOTE ] I got bored with my scrapper after I got SO's. Before that I enjoyed her immensily.
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Go do everything you can to challenge yourself before you come back here with nerf calls.

[/ QUOTE ] Expecting players to self-nerf to be challenged is a fundamental flawed way to make a game. I think the devs know this.
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You are super, super wrong if you think tons of people play 1-22 because it's the best part and the challenge makes it popular

[/ QUOTE ] You've made an error in logic here. Saying the he game is popular because of the challenge in the first 22 lvls is logically different than saying that people play the first 22 lvls because is the most popular. If the game was as easy from 1-22 as it is from 28-37, I think this game would fail....my opinion.

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Mieux, you need to realize you are part of a very vocal minority.

[/ QUOTE ] I have no knowledge of what % of people feel the way I do. Doomy would say its 42%. More importantly, neither do you. Add to this, the fact that Jack himself has acknowledged the game is too easy in the 30's. What do you think all those minion/lt/boss changes were aimed at? Do you think they spent all that time and energy to satisfy a minority of players? A vocal minority...maybe.
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the Blaster's problem is that in the late game, he simply has no tool to pull out to defend himself against the oodles of mezzing he'll encounter

[/ QUOTE ] Blasters weren't meant to have those tools because other people did. The problem is by the high lvls, everyone is so powerful, they don't need blasters....they can all do damage. I'm all in favor of nerfing damage (by a reasonable amount) for everyone but blasters.

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If you're looking for bare knuckle action...

[/ QUOTE ] I'm looking for a game with a good teaming dynamic, but is not so two-dimensional as Counter-Strike. I enjoy the casual intelligent player and routinely refuse SG invites.
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Ninja Gaiden

[/ QUOTE ] Punishing/unacceptable camera angles managmenet and unforgiving penalty for failing to execute. How do you fight something you can't face? But fun for awhile.

EDIT:
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By the way, the best TF in the game is the Hess TF, followed closely by the Eden trial, both of which are far, far outside your "funnest part ever" range, so you fail it.

[/ QUOTE ] Striga wasn't around when I made my DM/SR. The devs openly admit that the set a new standard with Striga. For that reason, it does make the 20..A LOT more enjoyable than lvl 1-22. Striga provides things, interaction, elements, that the game did not previously have. And yes, the Hess TF is the second best TF I've been on. The best was Respec for the first time at lvl 26 while facing +4 boses. Three deaths on that TF...that was awesome.

Yes... I want Invinc to provide that challenge. I do not want Heroic to provide that challenge.

And as an aside...lvls 1-13 suck. No travel powers suck. They could stand to give us travel at lvl 6.

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And if you were not illiterate, you would see you are directly supporting my contention, which is that the color coding and level numbers do not matter. If we start off fighting 3, and end the game fighting 3, the game does not change. Its fighting 3.

[/ QUOTE ] no. I am not supporting your contention. Your contention is based on the myopic view that fighting "3" at lvl 1 is the same as fighting 3 at lvl 40. By your definition, if we start out fighting 3 civililians, and end up fighting 3 AV's....we are still only fighting 3. Ridiculous. The classification of "Minion" is somewhat arbitrary Arcana. It's not like there is some Minion certification program. Go make a toon at level 1 and see how many unslotted Shadow Punches it takes to defeat him. Now try a Minion at lvl 40 and see how many unslotted Shadow Punches it takes to defeat him.
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I figured intelligent people would get my point, which is that if they are balancing the game for the same identical risk for everyone

[/ QUOTE ] Another myopic assessment. The risks are not "identical" for everyone. Where do you get this stuff? If I seem curt or rude it's because you consistently distort and misrepresent my posts and assertions. It is obvious that what the devs mean when the talk about a metric, there will be variation around that metric consistent with the soloing abilities of the various AT's.

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If they can do their jobs of drawing aggro for the team, they are going to have to be at massively lower risk exposure than the rest of the team combined.


[/ QUOTE ] yet another erroneous conclusion. A tanker can be all defense and no offense. Which mean his/er ultimate ability to survive is zero. A blaster can be all offense and no defense and given the DPS he/she needs to put out to kill the mobs before they kill him or her, his or her ability to survive is zero. Combine the two...the tanker holds the aggro, the blaster kills the mobs. Very very very simple concept.

Tanker defenses after a certain lvl far exceed the DPS that mobs can even put out in any misson they can encounter solo. This is unbalnced in terms of the game. You assume that for a tanker to provide value to an 8 man team his defense has to be so good he/she is unkillable solo. That is flatly not true. The defense simply has to be good enough that the teammates can defeat the mobs before Tanker's defenses are overwelmed due to his lack of offense....except past lvl 35 or so..his or her offense is more than enough...as witnessed by me on the ground while he solo'd like 15 mobs including 3 +3 bosses...while getting no +DEF bonus from Invinc due to the Quartz Crystals.
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If you are at risk, you are going to die eventually.

[/ QUOTE ] Factually incorrect. Lots of people are at risk for winning the lottery their whole lives.
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I'm not generally impressed by it, I see it a lot.

[/ QUOTE ] But you don't see it Arcana. You consistently don't see it. You take this 2' foot leap over a 10' ditch and then act like you made it. "Death around every corner" is a disengenuous characterization of what Jack has expressed as the level of risk players should encounter on Heroic. I might get hit by a car everytime I cross the street, but no one calls it "death at every cross walk." Yes. I get peturbed at your inaccuracies strictly to support your arguments. I'm not impressed either.

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I'm calling shenanigans and asking you to stop talking about elude changes while you are still 37.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...I've no interest in talking about Elude changes in this thread.

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Reading is fundamental, Mieux. The original post which I responded to was this:


[/ QUOTE ] yes...reading is fundamental...let's look at what is being said:
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The devs believe this is desirable. I agree with them. It should be challenge for first time players on heroic.

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But you saw this:
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it was not a good idea necessarily for everyone's power level to be brought down to the level of blasters, and you contradicted them and further stated that this was not only the devs goal, but personally desirable to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ] Literacy is a good thing. It's good when you can responed to what someoen is actually saying and not what you want them to say to suppport your claims. I say the game should be challenging to the "first time" player on heroic and you accuse me of saying that we should play like blasters....

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Within that context, I mention perma-elude as a change that serves to reduce the play difference between scrappers and blasters, at least for me. You might disagree with the point, but I didn't think I needed to draw a picture for you not to get lost while I made it.

[/ QUOTE ] Your issue is with a small range of levels where 90% of the players don't go. Yet, you throw out asertions as if they apply to all /SR's. They don't. Be specific. My /SR does not play like a blapper. If he does, then Blappers need the living daylights nerfed out of them.

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its clear to me that you are primarily someone for whom it is more important to sound clever than logical or reasonable

[/ QUOTE ] Defamation is not your style, Arcana. I'm not having trouble with logic nor reasonability. I'll let my posts speak for themselves.

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You nit-pick posts while doing nothing but asserting things without basis, support, or anything approaching reason.

[/ QUOTE ] it's funny, I've gotten quite a few PM's from people who I disagree with in threads where they come around and say they agree with me. At times, we are saying the same things. Since our Perma discussion way back...there seems to be a disconnect on the logic. If you think yours is superior...well, it's not like I'm going to convince you with reason.
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On top of that, your sarcastic tone really makes it difficult to treat you in the sort of civil manner

[/ QUOTE ] Yes...I need to work on that. I gets triggered when I feel a poster is carelessly misquoting me.

lol...your post seems to say like three different things....only one of which I think I agree with...
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that doesn't bode well for tanks.

[/ QUOTE ] First off, Tanks are the most overpowered AT of them all once they get in the 30's. Talk about zero risk. Tankers should be defeatable by something they encounter in a mission at the hardest settings....from lvls 1-50. They shouldn't have to hurrd the entire map to risk defeat. Recently, my lvl 37 DM/SR hooked up with an 8 man team (typical controller created group). The tank was lvl 40...mission was on Invinc...lvl 43 DE bosses..Greater Devoured. Total party wipe out...3 +3 bosses...Quartz Crystals, Eminators, ToL. Inv/* tanker killed them all by himself. A friggin 8 party spawn on Invinc, wiped out by one Inv/* tanker. I've heard plenty of stories of one Inv/* tanker completely dominating Respec missions. I hear Stone/* tankers are even tougher. Apologies for not being too concerned that Tankers might be brought down from the stratosphere.

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Maybe thats good for first time players - every class, no matter what they pick, will play with the same sort of rollercoaster death-around-every-corner pace.

[/ QUOTE ] Hyperbole. You are exaggerating. Risk =/= death around every corner. You are creating a false comparison to support an otherwise invalid assertion.

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Perma-elude only affects people who can even get to level 40 in the first place

[/ QUOTE ] So now we're talking about Perma-Elude in the blaster damage thread?

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The SR changes makes my SR play the same as my blaster.


[/ QUOTE ] When your blaster can take on 10 +4 Crey without inspirations, come talk to me. When your blaster can take out 6 +4 Malta, come talke to me. When your blaster can take on 8 +4 Nemesis, come talk to me. Your /SR may play like blaster because you've refused to use Toggles for 39 lvls. Mine doesn't. My guess is yours doesn't either.

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I believe that the game should escalate from 1 hero challenged by 3 level 1 minions, to 1 level 20 hero challenged by 3 level 22 minions, to a level 30 hero challenged by 8 level 33 minions, to a level 40 hero challenged by 3 level 42 bosses, to a level 50 hero challenged by an archvillain, his five lieutenants, 30 swarming minions, and oddjob's hat.


[/ QUOTE ] Except this vision is dependent upon one of the grossest oversights by the devs and players alike. Lvl 1 minions are a magnitude weaker than lvl 41 minions. You've fallen victim to this infernal color coding which has no comparative value what.so.ever.

The color coding is wholly inaccurate and completely undermines our sense of increased power. It is based on the fact that the game has stuck the mob with the same number as your hero's lvl. Colors are not based on any quantative difficulty comparison.

If you have even a single iota of analysis in that head of yours, you'd recognize how ridiculous it is for people to argue we should fighting +3's instead +0's. The game does not assess your power lvl and code the mobs accordingly. Are even lvl Sappers the same threat lvl as even lvl Outcast Initiates?

If the game removed colors and rank, this silly notion of not increasing in power would evaporate. What they should do is get rid of color coding after lvl 10 and have Mrs. Liberty tell you that

"Do to the growth of and uniqueness of your powers and slotting, the city can no longer determine your power lvl compared to the mobs....though we can tell you when you are probably way outclassed" (+4's and higher will still be purple).

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It is more important that the AT classes are different than they are balanced.

[/ QUOTE ] yes, we went through this in your other thread. A position I have been arguing for months. Different means arguing who's "better" is purely subjective and no one is arguing about nerf x. The problem is the game has to make those differences a necessity. Range is worth less (not worthless) if everything can be defeated by melee.

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OK, let's assume that everyone is nerfed to the level of Blasters, and the game is a challenge for many people on Heroic.


[/ QUOTE ] The devs believe this is desirable. I agree with them. It should be challenge for first time players on heroic. It should be nearly undoable (without a single defeat) for veteran players on Invinc. Think Halo on Legendary.

I just got done playing a mish with a stone/stone lvl 22 a lvl 21 Grav/Emp a lvl 22 fire/fire blaster and my lvl 21 Ice/El. We did the Tanker's Striga mish on Invinc. Not a single death. The blasters moved some...but the tanker spent FAR more time running around holding aggro and using taunt. Not a single death. The tanker probably had all SO's...i'm almost sure of it. His health probably never went below 90%. But we should not have been able to do that mission that easily with DO's. Mine are all yellow.

The game is too easy on Invinc. Way too easy. I'm not sure why you think it needs to be that easy. I'm fighting +2,+3s with DO's and still we worked them. My attacks have only 4 dmg in them. Two blasters chewed that mission up. Upping blaster damage for blasters in the 20's is absolutely the wrong way to go. When I get to the 30's, we'll see if it changes.

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Well, if the game keep getting more balanced / harder, the only good way to maintain the previous PPL is to PowerGame.

[/ QUOTE ] The reason I quit playing my lvl 37 scrapper is because it got boring. The low lvl game is so much more fun because it is a struggle. Because you need blastesr...you need defenders, you need tankers...you need controllers. I have no interest in powerleveling and routinely refuse offers to do so. Right now, the best part of CoH, imo, is lvls 1-22 where the game is the most challenging. Guess what...everyone plays those lvls and look how popular it is.

I am more interested in badges at high lvl than xp. I have spent more time exemping down in to the teens and 20's just to relive the challenge i used to have with my scrapper. Easy is boring.

The fact that blasters are so fagile is what makes them exciting for me.
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Modifying one AT to be better (Blasters) is much simpler and quicker than modifying 3 downward

[/ QUOTE ] Yes..it is simpler and quicker, and ultimately the wrong decision given the strenthg of the mobs. If they increase mob HP's by a lot, then I'm 100% in favor of upping blaster HP's. Just reduce the endurance for everyone else's attacks.

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I've always kinda wanted to make a Elemental Scrapper

[/ QUOTE ] I thnk the game should support this. I mean...it kind of already does...you can make a stone tanker and just play him like a scrapper..which seems to be what a lot of tankers do.

But here's the thing the game strugges with.....Is CoH about teaming...or soloing?

....the answer is that we want both, how and when we want it. However, based on Jack's comments, it seems that CoH is/has decided that CoH is focused on making the teaming experience very very good. I like that. This is what has motivated me to play the game. I like teaming, I like coordinating efforts.

But as RPG paradigms stand now, there are some conflicting realities:
1) The logistics time expense in teaming are high...there has to be an opp to just go it alone every now and then.

2) The environment, the monsters, the missions, the xp, all have to be designed in direct response to the powers and roles you give the players. An analogy is football plays...

3) to the extent that your Running Backs want to play Quarterback, and your Receivers want to play linesman, the team suffers and the players blame the game. This is analogous to Tankers refusing to tank, Defenders refusing to defend, Blasters expecting to solo like scrappers or play any which way they choose, regardless of the team they are on or enemies they face.

4) People will not do what you expect..nor should you lock them into one path. Without choice and freedom to be the Hero you want to be...this game would suffer.

5) You can't account for all the variables, you can't make everyone happy, the people that scream the loudest are not the necessarily the ones most deserving or the ones who rightly should be changed. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" right? What a noble and profound way to approach the game. Let's use up all the grease...never mind the cranks seizes because they used up all the grease on the left rear training wheel. The devs only have so many hours in a day. I'm sure they like to see movies, go on vacation, eat pizza, and maybe even play the game now and again.

Cutting myslef short....the game is designed...which means it that at the core, there is a model of how the game should work. Which is to say that it is not limitless..as much as we would like it to be. This game strives to make us feel like super heroes, but the comics are written not played. They are contrived stories which do not have to adhere the same consistency. And most importantly, the super heroes in the comics can't complain about "balance."

An interesting aside....it seems that we get to make choices in this game about what we have, that many players don't want to accept the consequences of those changes when things change. Blasters were great when they were dominating in the teens, but now that they are not in the 30's, that is unacceptable. I see the same thing on the scrapper boards. The complete lack of shame in using a power until x lvl and then respecing it out. It's like eating the icing off of a cake or the topping off of a pizza and then tossing it.

..yeah..yeah...I know..it has to be fun 100% of the time...99% fun is not acceptable.

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Suggestions like 'Nerf That Power, It's Too Good' really boil down to 'Someone Is More Powerful Than Me, and I Got Envy'.

[/ QUOTE ] GS, you're overlooking a very important reality. The toons, the powers have to be balanced against the mobs. The reason they have "nerf" is because the game is too easy. The 30's game is too easy. You can't just keep upping people's powers. This is the fundamental disconnect everyone has when they piss and moan about "why not just bring the weaker sets up??!!!"

Nerfing as opposed to boosting is even more obvious when there is one power or set of powers that is out of whack. Which is easier, nerf one power, or boost six?

Now grant it, I am advocating something that is in violation. I am saying nerf 5 AT's and leave one AT where it is. The reason goes back to my first point about toons vs mobs. If you boost blaster damage, then you need increase the mob hit points, the game will become even more trivial in the 30's.

Remember, right or wrong, the Jack himself believes in a risk v reward element. Right now, blasters are probably right where that needs to be. Don't tell me you guys can't blow through missions on Heroic solo. Scrappers have too little risk, and Tankers and pet controllers have like zero.

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If you are being serious:

People throw the "Well slot your powers with TO's then" argument around a lot. First off, any game that expects people to self-nerf for a challenge is doomed. That should be so obvious, you shouldn't have brough it up. Expecting people to self-nerf is ridiculous and a contemptous remark.

Secondly, as I've said before, you have to consider the effect on players when solo and when teamed...like teamed with some +2's so you're facing +5's. You can't sk in that situation. Obviously, tho, I don't expect the game to bend over backwards to deal with this...but..TF's are a different matter. TF's are probably seen as the crown jewel missions by the devs. These are the missions they spend the most time devising and probably play testing. As such, you need to consider the adversity players will face in this situation. This is the main reason why they should not nerf scrapper defense. Especially when they are testing the fights with inspirations....ridiculous. Nerf our damage....maybe raise our crit % by 5% so we are still boss killers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite serious, sadly. I agree that reducing the damage that Scrappers do by one brawl or so per attack (~20%) is a great idea in theory. In practice, this means game imbalance on a grand scale.

For example, under this solution, should Tanks continue to do identical damage to Scrappers (80% of Blasters), or should they be nerfed as well?

If not, why do scrappers exist?
If so, how would Tanks solo?

Oh, and railing aginst the hypocracy of the common CoH player exhibits exactly the kind of cynicism you say you hate so much... I know a lot of players who self-nerf, and I'm among them.

[/ QUOTE ]Self-nering and telling others to self-nerf to enjoy a game are in a universe apart. That's like telling someone else they need to run marathons because you do. A game should encourage players to min/max to their hearts content, it should provide many options to do it, and it should make it impossible to conclusively determine which build is truely better in every situation, and still provide them with challenge when they do. That is a great game. That is a well thought out game. That is a game that will endure.

Yes, Tankers should have their damage reduced as well. By the mid 30's they are better than scrappers for teams: Better aggro control, virtually unkillable, very respectible kill rate. The easist respecs I have are with two or more tankers. It's a frickin cake walk.

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If so, how would Tanks solo?


[/ QUOTE ] Slow and ponderous. They should be encouraged to grap a blaster for fire support...just like blasters need them for protection. The problem is as many blasters have pointed out, Tankers/Def/Controllers don't need blasters. They do enough damage on their own.

What they could also do is increase the recharge of all tankers by say 75% and give them a 50% increase in damage...so their rate of killing will be slower, but just as lethal. Fighting things they can't one shot will be much much slower and again will encourage them to team.

[ QUOTE ]
In practice, this means game imbalance on a grand scale.


[/ QUOTE ] I fail to see how? Scrappers have way more offense than they need. Our offense is so high, our defense is really not needed for soloing. Reduce my damage, but increase my crit% I still can get those "wow" kills...I still am rewarded for boss. Give me 5% on minions, 15% on Lt's...25% on bosses and AV's. This preserves our roll and returns blasters to feeling like they are top dog.

But returning to tankers...yes...they are the show-stoppers. Their damage is so good...especially with Hasten...wannabe scrappers will resort to making Tankers instead.

The real problem is the primacy of damage. That's all this game amounts to in 90% of the missions. Give the other AT's a way to make xp that doesn't require damage and you will probably see less people slotting for damage.

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See, by not nerfing the two scrapper sets that could blow up at high lvl, they had to boost tanker damage. Now it's out of control. They'll never take Tankers alive.

Personally, I have no problem if they nerf our damage by 20%. I think they should leave our defenses (but not Perma-X) and nerf scrapper/tanker damage instead (even nerf Def dmg too). This way we can continue to hold aggro, and be happy we have trigger-happy blasters on the team.

I'd take the nerf in a heart beat. The slider only goes to Invinc..I can't turn it any higher. Defense is not what allows me to solo at that lvl.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's great! It's good to hear that you're ok with a Scrapper nerf. That's a brave admission, and I can tell that you care about game balance.

One question, though: when did you get permission to nerf all my Heroes too? I'd kinda rather you slotted TOs in all your powers; I must have missed the part where you decided my game should get harder?

[/ QUOTE ]If you are being serious:

People throw the "Well slot your powers with TO's then" argument around a lot. First off, any game that expects people to self-nerf for a challenge is doomed. That should be so obvious, you shouldn't have brough it up. Expecting people to self-nerf is ridiculous and a contemptous remark.

Secondly, as I've said before, you have to consider the effect on players when solo and when teamed...like teamed with some +2's so you're facing +5's. You can't sk in that situation. Obviously, tho, I don't expect the game to bend over backwards to deal with this...but..TF's are a different matter. TF's are probably seen as the crown jewel missions by the devs. These are the missions they spend the most time devising and probably play testing. As such, you need to consider the adversity players will face in this situation. This is the main reason why they should not nerf scrapper defense. Especially when they are testing the fights with inspirations....ridiculous. Nerf our damage....maybe raise our crit % by 5% so we are still boss killers.

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Not saying scrappers don't NEED to move in combat, but to compare the neccessity of movement between scrappers and blasters is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ] Well...it sure is. But I think the point for many of us non-MA scrappers is that when someone makes a blanket statement about blasters needing to move more....I can compare that to my own experience from playing various different AT's, an Ice/El blaster to 20 being one of them...and the statement is not universally true...not even close.

From playing both a D3 and Kin def to 28...when I covince the blasters on my team to sit their shizoid butts down in one place...their mortality goes down to zero and they do more blasting. So from my def's perspective, blasters do a lot of running around out of habit from soloing or teaming with bad def/tanks and it is unnecessary when teamed with competent teammates. So the biggest criticism I have is that the majority of the time they team with my defenders, the frentics is detrimental and wholly unnecessary. The best blasters I've teamed with have sat still. The worst..."Don't tell me how to play my toon!!!!"

From playing my Ice/El...I've hard far far far fewer deaths with that toon than I have had wth either my dm/sr at lvl 37 or my claws/regen at lvl 19. And I don't need to move 1/2 as much as my dm/sr. I move...but it's gross movements..full on retreats or constant back-pedaling.. My scrappers require a lot of precision...my blaster does not. Distance traveled goes to my blaster...number of keyboard inputs for movement, my DM/SR buy an order of magnitude. Until you play a DM/SR without Stamina...you literally have no clue how critical precision in combat is. Blasters dont' even come remotely close to it.

But the topic is silly. Blasters have convinced themselves that their life is by far the hardest. Maybe it is...

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but I've played a scrapper to 45 and a blaster to 50. you need to try this on someone else.

[/ QUOTE ] You played the ONE scrapper primary that has no Cone AoE's to benefit from movement. The only movement MA has to do is to chase the guy who they just Crane kicked. Two scrappers have ...no..make that three scrappers are telling you that movement is critical for scrappers and you refuse to accept it.

heph, the movement required by each AT is different, but both have to move for optimal efficiency. The exception is when a blaster teams with a good def. Then, less movement is better, ime.

Why are we even arguing about movement anyway?

You've been told by two scrappers that knock backs can equal death, and I'll bet your intransigent @$$ refuses to accept that too. Jesus you're insufferable. You must have hated your scrapper every day you played him.

Mobs dont' kill scrappers...knock backs do.

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You let me know when you find a scrapper that does that, though.

[/ QUOTE ] Already have, why do you think we are haivng this discussion? Yes, I noticed that sometimes it did not knockback.

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There are two ways to fix it, give blasters a very large buff of give scrappers a very large nerf, which do you prefer?

[/ QUOTE ] The nerf. If they had nerfed /Inv and IH from day one, we would not be in this mess. Because /Inv was so frickin ridiculously overpowered, they had to boost /SR. Invincibility as a power is ridiculous in its current and former forms. /Regen should have had FH substiantially improved as you lvl, healing in Int was a lousy choice, IMO. But, IMO, /SR didn't need the def boost (though it is an uninformed opinion as I never played with I1 /SR).

See, by not nerfing the two scrapper sets that could blow up at high lvl, they had to boost tanker damage. Now it's out of control. They'll never take Tankers alive.

Personally, I have no problem if they nerf our damage by 20%. I think they should leave our defenses (but not Perma-X) and nerf scrapper/tanker damage instead (even nerf Def dmg too). This way we can continue to hold aggro, and be happy we have trigger-happy blasters on the team.

I'd take the nerf in a heart beat. The slider only goes to Invinc..I can't turn it any higher. Defense is not what allows me to solo at that lvl.

EDIT: Since I play Kinetics, I'd like to see them lower Blaster damage so blasters can't hit the cap on their own. But that''s purely selfish....I suppose I coudl live with them rasing the cap, but I'm concerned the blasters would trivialize all other damag dealers if we raised thet cap.

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if you don't know enough to manage your endurance you deserve a face plant.

[/ QUOTE ] I do know how to manage my endurance...it's called Dark Consumption, and it requires that I have mobs around me. Get it?
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a blaster who misses is in danger no matter how much endurance he has.***Do you think I'M MAKING THIS STUFF UP?

[/ QUOTE ] No need to go frothing at the mouth, I'm talking about the mobs that I am fighting. You can ET/DT your own mobs all you want. If the only mobs that are left are the ones on me...then play like a team member.

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I couldn't fight +4's in my 30's as a blaster. hell I can barely do it now at 50

[/ QUOTE ] You are not supposed to able to do what scrappers are doing solo. I can't take on what Inv/* tankers can take on. So what? I'm not a tanker. Helloooooo?!!?

heph, as long as your sense of balance is all about doing what scrappers can do: "The solo AT". We've nothing more to discuss. You just want to be indignant.

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Dragon's tail is a knock up, it won't knock things out of soul drain, and Crane kick is single target, which won't screw up a soul drain either.

[/ QUOTE ] Depends on how its slotted. I beleive if you put knockback in it, it knocks them back. It doesn't do great damage, so IME, a lot of MA's use it for CC. Crane kicking my lead target will screw up my Shadow Maul. When there are only two mobs left, A DC can miss the one guy that is left, or hit no one if that was the only guy.


As a blaster or defender, knockback is great. As a DM scrapper and Kinetics defender, knockback can cripple my effectiveness.

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whatever. a few missed mobs to a scrapper don't spell death.

nuff said.

[/ QUOTE ] No. Without endurance your toggles drop. A DC that misses all enemies, means my toggles drop. A Shadow Maul can save my life...when the lead mob gets knocked out of range, Shadow maul won't fire...the two guys behind him unload on me.

No one is making stuff up heph. You aren't concerend with facts or reality. You don't know how all the power sets work or the skill required to play them. Your minds made up that reality is what you want it to be.

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when was the last time someone told your scrapper, "hey you can't use X power,"

[/ QUOTE ] lol...I tell that to MA players all the time. I hate DT too. I have to tell them to wait until I hit Soul Drain before they go knocking fools around. No fan of Crane Kick either. In fact, MA is the one scrapper set i enjoy teaming with the least.

Don't feel bad. I get on Defenders who use ET in appropriately as well.

And I'm sure if I pick up ET at 49, I'll get yelled at too
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I'll agree to this, but only if I get an accept button on your status protection.

[/ QUOTE ] Sure, you know you'll just put it on Auto Accept.

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just shows that I don't buy into the scrappers have to move more bit.

[/ QUOTE ] All primaries and secondaries have different modes.

DM/SR requires constant...and I mean constant repositioning. As RR points out, Shadow Maul's cone has the width of a thimble..and is about as deep. Soul Drain and Dark Consumption require a keen eye and lots of footwork to maximize effect. The difference between hitting 1 mob and 3 can be life and death.

As for /SR. The fewer toggles we run the better. This means the more mobs you can keep in melee, the better you'll do. Let a boss alone and he'll resort to Ranged...or even worse AoE. Most importantly, /SR is on a time limit. Endurance efficiency is very important. A /Regen can afford to be wasteful with attacks.

Sorry, your limted experience with MA/Inv does not even begin to qualify you with the tactical requirements of scrappers in combat. MA has ONE AoE and no cone attacks. All the other sets have more than that. yeah...fighting +0's...who cares what you do. Fighting +3's..and especially +4's in your 30's requires some rigorous tactical execution.

EDIT:
I think the debate here is one of perception. DM requires very precise small movement positioning. Playing my blaster, I move more in terms of distance, but my positioning doesn't need to be nearly as precisie. Nor am I even as remotely affected by knockback attacks. Energy Torrent has nearly killed my scrapper on many occassion...go to hit Dark Consumption and ET knocks them all out of range just before I hit the button. God that is so frickin annoying.

ET should trigger an "Accept" button for everyone on the team. It doesn't fire unless everyone agrees it should fire. God I hate that power.

The other factor is a lot of blasters move out of habit, not necessity. The most effective blasters my defender has encountered are the ones that stay put except for an occasional moving for an AoE. I see more get killed from happy feet. But this is very defender/heal dependent. If defenders are busy sniping...blasters die. If see a Dark sniping...I'm going to run away too.

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Define modify our playstyle? do you mean from team to solo,

[/ QUOTE ] Solo to team. And yup, blasters have to undergo the most dramatic change in tactics. You want to lower the bar on what it takes to be a good blaster?

I think it does take a lot more skill to survive as a blaster compared with other AT's. The sad truth is that it seems the median player lacks a lot of those critical skills. Scrappers...especially old /Regen versions...were pretty idiot proof.

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it was because I actually slotted and used Reconstruction and Dull pain, or something

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, that's a very valid observation. In one of my early experiments, I six slotted FH. It worked really well. My current one, I underslotted Recon...didn't take DP, and tried to go with a six slotted Swipe...like the only attack that has any significant damage insp.

So you are very correct to observe that currently, scrappers can be much harder to get right. This is also why you see such a wide range of opinions within the scrapper community on nerfing the various secondaries (/DA excluded).

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Okay, so when a red name comes and says Blasters aren't soloing 20+ 4+ Minions and LTs, would that make you happy? Or do you want us blasters to start tossing our poor selves into 4+ hazard zone spawns with demo record on?


[/ QUOTE ] Being able to outdamage other AT's and being allowed to outdamage other AT's are two independent truths. The problems that it seems blasters are really having is the latter, not the former. As I have conceded. The Blaster dependency on competent teammates may be out of whack, simply for the fact that the most critical role to blasters...tanks and defenders...are replete with players who do no such thing. There is a difference between having a Tank and playing a tanker. Defenders aren't as bad as tankers at eschewing roles, but some are pretty bad.

The other factor which is just as much to blame based on my experience is that many blasters, if not most blasters, dont' have the foggiest notion of how to modify their playstyle. We have at least three independent AT's who's competency, or lack there of, has the most detrimental effect on blasters. I am open to the idea that this could use some investigation. I would be infavor of penalizing the other AT's just as much for poor team play, but that is probably harder to do than just making blasters harder to kill.

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C) You also have absolutly no idea what makes a scrapper better then a blaster, especially with your comment after this


[/ QUOTE ] lol...you're completely overlooking the purpose of the comment. What is it I'm trying to communicate?

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my scrappers have died far less in the early game

[/ QUOTE ] Go play a claws/regen and get back to me. A class like BS/Inv is a comparative calk walk...

Btw, I am very excited by the changes to scrappers. I am amazed that they have made specific changes that I thought were totally necessary.

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ieux, it is clear taht you have not looked at my suggestions. I would love for you to point out how my suggestions make a team or a blaster overpowered. You go ahead and do that.


[/ QUOTE ] i looked at your suggestions for blasters on the other thread and I found them borderline ridiculous. You uniformely want everything imporved without a single concession in power. Melee attacks that work at 20ft...hahahahaha.

That reads like someone who is out of touch with reality and only cares about making Blasters beyond uber.

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suggested balanceing the entire game by limiting enhancements.

[/ QUOTE ] limiting availability of enhancments does not balance the game. It creates loot. You have to limit the effectiveness of them...but the current structure of TO's, DO's, and SO's, makes that difficult.

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You on the other hand Mieux have shown that you can't even take the time to look up one of the posts from 2 months of posts that go into detail how other classes outdamage blasters.

[/ QUOTE ] When a red name comes on and says that we ran 100 team missions for 20 different lvl ranges and all 6 blaster primaries got outdamaged everytime, then come back to me. Until then it is propoganda. My blaster kills so much friggin faster than my scrapper at the same lvl, it's not even funny. In PvP, I can survive alphas from Scrappers. I've been totally worked by Energy and AR blasters in PvP. Their ability to keep hitting me while I run is incredibily effective. Go check the kills of blasters in PvP. They flat dominate every other AT, i'm talking double-digit domination.

The issue which I think does deserve some exploration is the ability to deliver that damage on teams is largely dependent on your teammates. If Tankers don't tank, which many of them don't, and defenders/controllers won't heal, which some seem to think is antithetical, they hamstring blasters. I've gotten my defender killed using Psychic Scream with no Tanker. With a tanker, my blaster is golden. Without... The fact is that blasters were made to be dependent on AT's doing their AT expected jobs in teams. To the extent that players eschew those roles, it hurts blasters most of all. Watching some defender lining up a snipe while my blasters is getting wailed on is largely perturbing.

There may also be issues with aggro for some sets like Fire. It occurs to me that maybe the DoT of fire my over ride a Taunt delivered after the initial blast. I'd have to test this to be sure. But to be honest I've not had mobs pulled off my Tank by blasters. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that the devs should look into it and see if it is a matter of circumstances or coding.

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blaster nukes do not balance the blaster class nor do they make the blaster the king of damage.

[/ QUOTE ] No one said they balanced the set, nor did I say that Nova made blasters the king of damage. Things you infer are not things that I have implied.
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"Theres a problem, but I am not sure if there is a problem so don't say there is one."

[/ QUOTE ] If that's what you took away from my post, then I can't help you, we aren't speaking the same language.
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You either believe that Blasters are the kings of damage

[/ QUOTE ] My enjoyment of blasters does not in any way depend on blasters possessing the mantle of damage kings. I've already told you what I think is the criteria....
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in which case you can take a look at the numerous suggestions to improve them and critique them.

[/ QUOTE ] My issue with blasters is not the powers...it's the missions. I'm sick of straight damage being the answer to nearly every problem. Why can't the fact that the damage is "ranged" as opposed to "melee" have some real significance in the game? I think the devs have already acknowledge that the missions need more variety. I just have to have the patience for them to provide it.

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An easier time leveling I have not had.

[/ QUOTE ] Funny, my Ice/El blaster did not die until like lvl 12. Being able to two and three shots a mob and then run is a world of difference when facing groups like the Tsoo and the Vahz. My Claws/Regen died so many friggin times I got disgusted and quit playing him for awhile. But so what? I don't play my blaster and expect it to ber like my scrapper.

If you want to trade posts...

First off, it wasn't fine for scrappers. It got me killed by even lvl bosses. It put a huge premium on Stamina...which I don't have. I remember doing mission on Invinc and blowing through a whole tray in of insp by the third spawn. I don't use inpirations on Live. I am convinced they upped the accuracy of bosses and Lt's and I got slapped around.

No one said the changes were fine. I said they solved the problem of making blaster damage unnecessary on teams. I didn't say it was the best solution, I didn't say it was the only solution. So you're off base in trying to turn my post into something it's not.

And FYI...some blasters liked the increase in minion HPS because it also came with more XP. I recall a specific post by a blaster who pointed out the change ended up giving him more xp/hour as he had tested the difference on live and test at the time.
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Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in.

[/ QUOTE ] I've long said scrappers were overpowererd compared to the mobs we face. That train left while you were still in bed.
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Not even bringing non-Scrappers in-line with what Scrappers can do.

[/ QUOTE ] Outside of PvP I don't subscribe to this type of approach to the game. I don't care what tankers can do. I don't care what pet controllers can do as long as I feel like I'm useful, have a unique role, and have the tools to do my job.

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And when people had a problem with this solution, a solution that was fine for Scrappers yet kicked the rest of us in the yam-bag, it was their fault for not having the keen grasp of gaming dynamics that you have.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what you are referring to. They yanked the all the changes but the Boss changes. The bosses changes were exactly in line with States professed philosohpy that bosses should only be soloable by certain builds and highly skilled players. They repealed it, and rightly so, because you can't get rid of missions. Mediocre or casual players were stuck with misisons they couldn't complete and couldn't get rid off.

Sorry Ohms, you lack the credentials to yank my privileges.