Midgardener

Great lil' guide! Heck, I wish the folks out there having issues with their Dominators would bother reading it. They'd understand why so many of us can have this much fun with our own alts. I suppose a flexible chaotic playstyle doesn't appeal as much to those who wish repeatable 1-2-3 tactics, but I'd rather not be bored or bummed out myself. Add more examples to show 'em what they're missing!

I've been a half-a$$ed supporter of MoG just because it's sort of a thrill ride (mostly since you need Revive to pick yourself off the ground after you make a mistake), but I'll back up EvilGeko on this one. My Ice/Ice Tanker loves this change, but MoG is practically dead to me now thanks to it. Defense scaling did this, not bugs.

Sing halleluah!

I can live with the To Hit Debuff Schedule change. It was the combination of the two changes in PvE (along with the 'PvP-only rationale' for it being nerfed to begin with) that got my Storm-riding panties in a bunch. PvP can go blow my foghorn. It's nice to see that our PvE ravings weren't in vain.

As the end cost is per tick, I suspect that PvE Hurricane will be back to relative normality.

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If anything the reason it should be changed is for PvE since the mobs are often stupid enough to run into rather than avoid it. Even then, that is a bad AI design problem, not anything really wrong with the power.

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I could be wrong, but I think this is the -perception in action. Basically, they can't see you very well so they wander closer for a better look. If so, this is what is keeping the power bearable right now in PvE.

Well that's something, at least.

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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)

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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.

Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.

And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.

So please, people... Think of the NPCs.

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*laughs!* Nicely said.

The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks.

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There's a slight difference between "balancing to the best of their abilities" and "never going to nerf". My point is that, and that alone.

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Understood. My point is that, according to your own statements, it's all hearsay.

Again, if a change is made for reasons both PvP and PvE, this should be stated rather than changes made to both and only attributed to one. To do otherwise is something I find false.

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So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers.

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Do you have a link? Proof? Evidance? Anything at all besides your word alone? I ask because I don't think they have ever said that, or anything close to it, and because if they did, I would love to see the quote.

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Honestly, even if there is no direct quote that can be found after board cleanup this is something that was implied time and time again by the developers, and rightly so. Differences between PvP and PvE have long been a source of necessary contention amongst players, where Power X was adequate with one form of gaming and totally game-wrecking in the other. To ask for proof of something that's been an understanding between PvE players and the developers isn't right. You've said yourself that you pretty much take for granted that the developers try to balance out things to the best of their ability, all based upon an assumption.

There is nothing surprising in the other poster's statement on this general understanding.

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Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).

The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.

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I'm not the biggest cruncher myself, but I listen to folks who are. I7 defense-scaling changes help out two things primarily: Defense and Accuracy buffs. The effect they have on To Hit buffs (and debuffs), based off of the differences between Accuracy and To Hit, are minimal. There are many threads on this topic. I do not say whether or not the To Hit debuffs of Defenders were overpowering and thus in need of rescheduling. I say that the double whammy hurt Storm Summoning more than most and should be addressed.

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I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.

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Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them ) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.

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This is where we differ somewhat in our opinions. I have no real love for intentions in game design. I rather doubt the developers of any game have it out for anyone. Conversely, it's said the road to hell is paved in good ones. What I care about are informed decisions and informative communication from the developers. I simply don't think the double whammy of Hurricane/To Hit Debuff changes, their far-reaching effects on both PvP and PvE and what we were told of them qualify as either.

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The devs "reasonings" are usually a buncha crap in my opinion. I saw they mentioned something about "stamina" in regards to nerfing Hurricane. They also said that by turning Instant Healing into a click it would help with a Regen's endurance issues... They HAD to be kidding. Regen can not only get Stamina, but Quick Recovery!!! I NEVER had an endurance problem! So... The devs have never really do a good, honest, non-foot-in the mouth, explanation about nerfs. It's like when people try to sell you a bridge or talk about WMDs. :-b

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Yes, the unintended 'endurance save' struck me as particularily rhubarb-rubbing, given Hurricane's status as one of the lowest cost toggles a Stormie could run. Thanks for the accident!

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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I've wondered this very thing since it came out.

I do recognize that my dilemma is not universal. Nor should PvP be so.

Edit: Super_Villain
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I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

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I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.

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Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

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Some powers are impossible to change for PvP and still stay the same for PvE. Most instances of this are powers that dirrectly affect a player. Even more so, are the ones that are Self Affecting.

Is it possible to have changed PvP Hurricane without affecting PvE? We don't know, only the Devs do. To assume you know is pretty much making something up and claiming it's real. Even if right, that doesn't mean you knew, it means you guessed.

Now let's assume that it WAS possible to change how Hurricane worked in PvP without affecting PvE. If that was possible, and they STILL changed it so it affected PvE, then odds are, they wanted it that way.

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I can safely say that I am not the one making things up. What was the point in even implying that? The statements as to why the various changes were made were ridiculously misleading. That's making something up. If PvE changes were desired in these actions, it's quite simple to say so in the initial patch notes. If my commentary is erroneous based off of incomplete information, the information needs to be complete.

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We can assume this based on the idea that in the past, it has been stated by Red Names that they if they can avoid a PvP nerf that didn't require PvE adjustment by only adjusting PvP, they would do so.

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I think I'll avoid assumptions of this nature, thanks to the other misleading information.

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There is nothing we can do with the information besides go "okay..." and there's nothing we can alter or change with the game. Giving us information might be good for us mentally, but it's similar to giving us a rock. Sure, we have it now, but there's not a lot that can be done with said rock.

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I'm sorry, but I don't usually settle for blind acceptance of anything.

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Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Robotech is right, there is no way to make hurricane work differently because when you turn it on it simply turns on, its not targeting a particular enemy. I don't know if they have the ability to make it check on the enemies side when they get hit by hurricane to see what effect it might have, based on past Dev posts I'm guessing not.

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Controllers don't target a particular enemy, but Containment does x3 damage in PvP zones instead of the PvE x2. Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

The way I see it, the uncertainty caused by a Storm Summoner has just increased, no matter how skilled they might be with the set and finely-tuned positioning. This adjustment combined with the overall To Hit Debuff enhancement reclassification from Schedule A to Schedule B has borked both of the main functions of this power unfairly. The savings in endurance was unplanned and pretty much pointless, as Hurricane eats less energy than most any toggle save for Combat Jumping. The reasons given for both changes were ill-considered and misleading. False pretenses should not be used as patch notes.

Move the ticks to half a second and I'm sure all the PvPers whining about Hurricane will still be able to do their damage and avoid being pinned. Please do something about this. PvE is still the core of this game.

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Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.

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I'd be for that, or at least the whatever the NPCs have. That's the rhubarb-rubber.

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Was Hurricane for NPC mobs (Sorcerors/Tsoo bosses/Witches) also correctly reduced/"fixed" as it was 'broken'?

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If these guys aren't getting the full second ticks, I'll be... completely unsurprised. Like Paragon Protectors and their older less rank version of Moment of Glory, right */Regenners?. Frankly, as a PvEer with miniscule interest in PvP, I'm irritated that the devs got their PvP nerfbat in my PvE fun. These two tastes don't taste great together. Endurance be damned, it was the lowest draining toggle a Storm character had aside from what, Combat Jumping? Thanks for the convenient side-effect! Ooh, a slot to move to Gale!

I liked trying to push mobs in corners, dammit. It wasn't as if they couldn't run by me often enough anyways to make it challenging. Why not a half second tick? Aren't most 'tick' powers set to that nowadays? Bah.

I suspect that yes, Archery is both a Defender secondary and a Blaster primary. It'll be all about the damage, really, with perhaps a little something odd mixed in. You pull, you release, the mob goes down.

I suspect that Trick Shot will be all about the status effects and stealths and what have you. Perhaps not quite like a Controller powerset might be, but there won't be a lot of damage involved. I'm thinking heavy on the debuffs rather than the buffs... targeted area stuff. Think gas clouds and boxing gloves.

I suspect both involve the same basic bow for animation.

All guesswork, of course. I'd just lay heavy bets on it.