Leo_G

Agreed with Arcana, the changes i'd request for the secondaries probably have little to no bearing on the sustain mechanic. I wouldn't go asking for +def or something in manipulation sets but it would be weird if asking for some adjustments to the melee mezzes were turned down because the sustain was to strong. No you can't ask for the world, but stuff within the sets function should be fine.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this too.

Hot Feet isn't cheap.

But what does that alternative entail?

You say make the set generally better but how? If the point is to help the Blaster sustain itself in generally the same amounts per set, how do you go about doing that? Make their controls better? Their debuffs? Some sets don't have controls. Some don't have debuffs.

I'm not saying the route the devs took is great, but it's probably a lot easier to accomplish and balance if they set their goal up first and add that functionality. As of now, none of the secondaries even had a means of actual personal sustenance. Making Hot Feet slow more and adding a hold to Burn isn't going to get you the same level of buff as adding more range to ice patch and giving freezing touch more range, for instance.

Basically, I hear what you're saying but without some logic, theory or method behind it, falls behind what we're actually getting.

Stalkers were my favorite AT, but even I concede that their change is overpowered.

I don't think so. As long as they don't add anything else to snipes, like some OMGWTFBBQ UBERZDOOB3LH1TZx2!!1 to it, snipes will be just fine. If anything, it will just mean those yellow inspirations won't be as much a waste as they used to be. I'll actually have something to plan around them for ATs with snipes.


Well, AS doesn't 1-shot minions. It 1-shots Lts.

And I find it arguable that Stalkers should have aimed for DPS in the first place rather than burst. It just edges out ATs and devalues their burst at the same time. And please do not read my point as like those idiots who hyperbolize everything and say 'they nerfed AS's burst', no, they just devalued it. It's not important anymore. Because if you've got DPS, nothing else matters. Not burst, not circumstantial advantages, not awareness. It all just comes down to pressing buttons and makes all those other little things like Hide, Placate, Demoralize and the like non-factors. They're there but they don't matter.

I'd agree. "Way too much" is a good approach. But it's better to gate those behind circumstances rather than conceding to the dumbed-down style of Brutes/Scrappers. At that point, whatever you gate it by can be adjusted to make it easier or harder depending on how much "Way too much" you add on. IMO, the changes to snipes seems easy and the power they grant gives just about right of benefit from how easy that gate is. If they just made all snipes insta-cast? Well, that'd be too easy...at which point, adding a gate to it (that disables insta-snipe for a period afterward which then would force interruptibility) would be needed or the cost of the power (the recharge) would need to be re-evaluated (I wouldn't want the damage to be lowered).

As is, the gate is easily surpassed. Just use Aim or other +ToHit powers or the mostly-useless insight inspirations. But that said, I would like a better buff to ToHit on the smaller inspirations so I only need 2 smalls. I think how it's set up, we need 2 smalls and kismet to get to the required gate.

Well, had you been taking snipes before the mentioned buff, you'd know they can drop foes pretty easy early on. My Defenders can 2-shot minions with snipe+tier 1 in the early game.

I think you guys are taking this change out of context. If you wanted the snipes but felt them unfun because of the interrupt, this change helps by giving you options. If you still find the options unfun, don't take the snipe.

Just adding the regen or whatever to the base values of Blaster does 2 things, IMO, that simply fail:

-It goes against their concept. Blasters aren't 'just' survivable. They don't 'just have' shorter downtime. Just like everybody else, they should have to take powers for their mitigation.

-It's not at all interesting. With how it's shown implemented, you have varying things from control powers that add to your survival, from regen to healing to absorb. It could very well be possible for new manipulation sets to have varying combos, strengths and applications of survival mechanics that would be much more interesting than just adding onto their base HP/regen values.

That said, I concede that you don't like where the devs placed the sustain mechanic. I don't like every choice either. We'll just have to wait until Hawk sits down and listens so maybe he'll change some stuff.

Well, without slotting, Lightning Clap recharges in 30 seconds. I'm guessing the recharge of Might of Thunder will be the same and am fairly sure the sustain mechanic refreshes but doesn't stack, so you can get the power to recharge in 15-20sec without much slotting. All you have to do is decide when is the most convenient chance to use it. You don't need a few seconds between spawns, you just need 2 seconds at any point you're not fighting.

And damage has caps. Once you reach that cap, +dmg doesn't do anything else for you. With other aspects to improve damage, such as speeding up animations a la Momentum/AS/Snipes or just adding extra damage ontop of it a la Fiery Embrace, you can boost your damage with +dmg buffs *AND* other stuff.

Wow, I'm surprised people so focused on optimal performance skip over the simplest logic.

What makes you think they didn't do that?

If you look at the set however, Dark Manipulation is simply a melee focused set. With Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, the melee attacks and the dmg aura, it just *is* melee. I tried to ask in the little powwow if it required a target to use but I couldn't make the skullthingies.

But I'm guessing the choice to add the effect to that power was a balancing point. DM has decently strong attacks, some extra AoE control in Dark Pit, a dmg aura, a mez/debuff and a heightened dmg buff in Soul Drain, I'd imagine all these factors played into where and how DM got its add-on and thematically, it works.


You should not need to be in melee combat for longer than 60 seconds...hell, you shouldn't need to be there for longer than 30 because that's how long the buff will last in a combat situation.


Uh, Field Operative? And if you want to mention it has a recovery buff, we'll FM has Consume.


It also tics slower, lowering the amount of aggro it might attract. Currently, Chilling Embrace tics multiple times a second, the new aura only tics every 3 seconds.


I think it's fine and concede that you'll have your own opinion.

And the other part of the argument is "I don't like how they've tied a super-regen effect to one power". Uh? What's the other alternative? Splitting the buff up into little chunks and giving it to more than one power? That'd just make slotting and building harder.

The way I see it, people, is Blasters do *NOT* get an armor set. They won't get one. Period. The end. You're not going to get a mitigation secondary with defense here, HP there, a heal here, regen there. No, you might get *ONE* power that does that and that's it. You can pick up other defensive powers around to help you out to tank stuff but we're not building Blasters up to become tanks so we're not building up their secondaries to emulate an armor set. Period. The end.

The goal of this change was to add something to the AT to help it sustain itself under more stress. A lot of the options added were a good choice, IMO, because it doesn't make them tanky but it gives them the ability to keep up or even push faster. You don't need to muster a whole slew of little effects to get this either, it's wrapped into one power for you. Is it good design to just put 1 'overpowered' buff in each secondary? Probably not, but it's the easier option that's easier to balance around and simplest to take advantage of for new and current blasters.

They do, it's called missing or having your recharge debuffed enough that you have no more StJ attacks to use.


Perhaps we need a review, boys and girls:

Energy Manipulation.Conserve Power >> Energize This Energize will have less of a heal and have more and longer lasting regen so that it can be made perma with slotting.

Devices.Cloaking Device >> Field Operative Field Operative will have an all-the-time regen and recovery buff added to its defense and stealth. Part of the regen is enhanceable, all of the recovery is enhanceable.

Dark Manipulation.Touch of Fear >> Touch of the Beyond This is still a melee click that needs a target. Using it on a foe grants a long duration (60 sec?) regen buff along with fearing and debuffing the target. This buff, AFAIR, does not stack on the caster.

Electric Manipulation.Lightning Clap >> Might of Thunder Just like LC, MoT is a click PBAoE that does not need a target to use. It always grants the user a regen and recovery buff when used for a long duration (60 sec?) so can be made perma. The range of this power is also improved so any foes caught in this power are also knocked back and/or stunned.

Fire Manipulation.Burning Aura >> Cauterizing Aura This aura always grants the user a heal-over-time and this power will not shut off while mezzed (but it will suppress the offensive part). No targets are needed for the healing but if there are targets, they will simply take fire damage.

Ice Manipulation.Chilling Embrace >> Protection of Coldorsomesuch This aura has been slowed down to tick much slower than Chilling Embrace but has been compensated by improving its range to 30ft. This is because the new aura grants +absorb every tic (every 3 seconds) that refreshes. The +absorb requires no targets but if there are targets, their recharge and damage will be debuffed. Oh, and the new aura does not shut off when mezzed, just the offensive component suppressed.

Mental Manipulation.Drain Psyche No changes.

Mmmm, they don't have rech inspirations though.

With regards to homogenization, consider other ATs:

-What do Doms do different? They all use controls and have melee and blast attacks.

-What about Scrappers? They all have click or passive mitigation + melee attacks.

The way I see it, we're building Blasters into a direction similar to how Dominators are built in their own direction. Dominators have a secondary built with a variety of attacks with different ranges, focuses and vectors but their primaries are all rather similar (immobilize, hold, sleep/stun/confuse, soft control and possibly pet). Blasters can be the same (primary = quick blast, medium blast, hard blast, snipe/mez/utility, self buff, nuke) while their secondary could be built toward mitigation + melee. The mitigation can be a mix of mez, debuff and self buff. This is a step to fulfill that.

Now we just need better mez!

I can somewhat agree, having the extra regen certainly helps buffer those instances when initiating (or forced to initiate) battle early and before recovering enough. I mentioned before (I can't remember which thread but no one made a comment about the post so who knows where it is) that the regen by itself wouldn't quite aid the blaster mid-combat, but I also don't think just passive mitigation such as defense or resistance is the only way.

I'm *still* advocating for a boost to Blaster mez powers just for this case. Being able to break apart alphas or slow incoming dmg using mez *will* amplify the effects of these new changes. I know because I pretty much always build my Blasters to exploit it now, either with mass mez or with hard quick focused mez.

But not only that, many of the defensive debuffs will also help. -ToHit, -rech, -dmg spread out over the foes will add up but you really need that mez for the hard hitters.

Interesting ideas. Personally, I've been contemplating the possibility that Sonic Blast, Dual Pistols, Ice Blast and soon to be Water Blast might be in for a little addition since none of them have snipes.

Like for Sonic Blast:

Shockwave: When clicked, a special power procs before the effect called 'Resonance' which basically creates an AoE check around each foe. If the caster isn't caught by that check, Resonance summons a pet and debuffs the foe's resistance before applying the damage (and since it's a pet, the same -res for all ATs). If you are caught by the Resonance check, the caster receives a buff (+res or mez resistance).

For Ice Blast:
Thinking Bitter Ice Blast and Freeze Ray: Each power has an 'Ice Block' type mode connected to them (and I guess other Block of Ice type powers can be tagged to trigger the same mode). When either Bitter Ice Blast or Freeze Ray (and no other powers but them) hit a target that has the 'Ice Block' tag *and* are held, it calls a new power that can do extra cold damage and/or debuff the target Benumb style.

I'd probably think of something regarding the extra ammo damage with the Dual Pistol power Executioner's Shot but haven't thought of anything thematic.

I would assume making the snipes less of a joke would be a step toward having less 'anemic blasts'. Hopefully, the mez powers are up next.

Incidentally, both of those also debuff resistance.

Thought:

You could just not take the snipe. Every power comes with a compromising cost. That you can say "Oh, I can take this control power or OH! I can take this AoE or OOOH!! I can take this snipe!!" is a good thing.

But if you're retrofitting powers into builds, a reexamining of all powers taken is inevitable. If you have a set with a crashless nuke, it's quite possible to skip a cone or AoE and just rely more heavily on the nuke even if you end up with less overall AoE DPS...or if you've got a crashing nuke, skip that.

My builds, thankfully, take powers completely depending on concept and now that I think about it, my Energy/Fire won't be taking the snipe because it doesn't fit his concept (and the power looks puny and weak anyway). He does have Nova and a couple of my other ranged characters picked up their crashing nuke as well as slot and use it.

Maybe you should start fitting in crashing nukes into your build as well in anticipation for new changes? Then you won't have to 'compromise' later?

I think you're overestimating the snipe changes (and the fact not every user of them will always have them fast-cast solo or teamed). Remember: ToHit debuffs exist.

Also, they did mention, if the snipe changes helped more than they anticipate, changes to sets without snipes may be in order. I've been brainstorming possibilities already that I may post up before the beta rolls around.

Something must be wrong with me. I'm agreeing with Reppu and not even trying to make some crude innuendo with it.

Wait...it might be coming, give it a sec....

Nope.

Not only that, but the buffs to the secondaries *are* exclusive to Blasters but since it's not what people wanted, they're going to complain about it not helping.

*shrugs*

Technically wrong. Although I completely turned around my Dark/WP stalker's build to take advantage of assassin's focus and assassin's strike (purely to show a couple of people that the old stalker strategies might as well be buried and dead), his original strategy had him unable to benefit from any of the stalker changes:

-He would use either Placate or Touch of fear to leverage hidden Assassin's Strike as well as his high bonuses to damage to enact bursts to kill foes outright without breaking fear.

-Touch of Fear does not grant Assassin's Focus.

-Hidden Assassin's Strike received no change.

-Assassin's Focus provides no benefit to any other power besides unhidden Assassin's Strike.

My Stalker did not benefit at all since Touch of Fear doesn't help gain focus, focus doesn't help any other powers besides Assassin's Strike, placate got no benefits added and neither did hidden assassin's strike.

Beyond that, Assassin's Strike is a power some DPS Stalkers skipped. If they chose to skip the buffed power despite the changes to it, they receive no benefit...but then perhaps I'm just one of those sore posters that still don't like Assassin's focus considering it's just another clunky add-on to an AT with a slew of other weighty junk to leverage that are basically obsolete in the new-game.

Just wanted to point out where you're wrong

Well I'm not technically asking you *if* it were possible. I'm more attempting to invoke thought on the subject of other possibilities of what the function can accomplish and how it can be applied to new changes. But inquiring about the limits of the function is more to gauge how far outside of the box you can start thinking.

These new changes to snipes seemed completely out of left field and has me thinking what else could be out there in scope of powersets, new ATs and AT upgrades.