LeMoiCavalier

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Not necessarily a reply to anybody here, but I was just curious if we have any confirmation or not about EA's change coming about due to the ... poor ... testing ground that was used to investigate regen last week or so?

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Not a word. Since Stateman dropped in and said they'd look into Tankers, we haven't heard anything else. EA is still the same on the test server as it has been since they added Issue 4. We still have this sticky thread, but all 15 of the posting Ice tankers have stopped posting in almost all the Ice threads.

We're currently waiting for changes to test, and hoping we get a boost, instead of others being taken down to our level.

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Sadly I'm sure that that's what is going to happen. Personally I think (For what I've seen Geko doing to the powersets) that they feel that Ice Tankers, Ice Blasters, DA Scrappers, Mind Controllers, and Empathy defenders are what the rest of the AT's on their respective fields should be.

It's my understanding (From another couple of thread) that the Devs are looking at the Tankers right now... That's kind of scary! But here is hopping...

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As for Circeus's post, I trust that there is information constantly being generated on the Tanker forum and elsewhere regarding possible fixes to Ice. But this thread is still in the Training Server forum and on the 49th page before I posted is still referring to the Energy Absorption nerf. Now, you claim that the reasoning behind the nerf was mentioned on page 2, which somehow I don't see... The only thing I do see is Geko suggesting that it's "still too powerful." Well, I was offering a possible reason for why they might think it's too powerful (actually, I ended up offering two). If you don't want to hear what possible reason they had, I guess that's fine, but good luck convincing the red names that you shouldn't be nerfed without having any idea why Ice was nerfed in the first place.

Now, you did manage to bring up the point of mobs using +acc on themselves making 95% a little too low. I could comment on a few alternative solutions, but since I know it will be misconstrued as an I hate Ice Armor post, solely because some people other appear to be die hard fans of the way it's operating on live (imo, not a viable solution), I'll refrain.

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Let me point something out that for some reason you don't seem to understand... Or don't whant to? I don't know... Anyways:

We Ice Tankers are not really happy with the set. We haven't been for more than a year now (More because all this has been an issue since Beta). With stackable armors and Sleep portection we were getting closer to being a tanker that people wanted to play not only because of concept or because they don't want to be and Inv/* tanker.

Again, WE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE CURRENT state of Ice Tankers... Even un-happier with the I4 version, and that's the reason why this thread his here... Let me quote Circeus:

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I mean c'mon... doesn't Ice Armor have enough issues as it is?

Was this change really necessary for a powerset that needs some kind of change to bring it up to par with Invuln and Stone in effectiveness?

There really is some 'splainin' to do here.

If you keep chipping away at the edges Ice Armor has (pun intended) what is going to be left?

To compensate for this, make Ice Armor able to drop ACC below the 5% floor OR allow for the DEF of Ice Armor to always work as if what is being fought is the same level as the Tanker. Give it an edge.

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All we got back from Geko was: "It’s not really a defense cap. It’s a cap on how many foes can give you a defense bonus" (Really not that much differente) and "The power is still quite massive, and probably still too powerful."

And AGAIN! That's the point! How come a power that lets a set do 75% of what other tankers can be too powerful? (Sure! We can tank better than a Fire tanker, but they do so much damage that even upsets the blasters) Why reduce the efectivity of a set that is already inferior?

And like you say, we don't know the real reason or the numbers that geko was using to think so. Until then all we can do is present numbers and real game experience as to why we don't want EA changed, since the only change they are proposing is a bad one for the set.

And it has been said already by all of us: Sure! Reduce EA's efectivity, but give us something in return!

And just to make it clear, I don't think by any means that you hate Ice Armor... I just think you're a troll.
With that out of the way: Welcome to Ignore. I can't stand your post anymore. Not only you have no idea of what the hell you are talking about, you have no fear showing it.

- 1st of all I'm going to ask you a favor. Please! Either read all 50 pages worth of this thread, roll an Ice Tanker, or move along. It's has been very obvious for a while now that you have no idea how Ice Tankers work (SR Scrappers and Ice Tankers are 2 different beasts, I know this because I've play both... Remember the part about me deleting a SR Scrapper to roll him as a DM/DA?... In fact my very 1st character was a MA/SR, a year ago or so)

- Second I'm going to give you a tip in case you ever feel like rolling one Ice Tanker... That is if they don't change the way EA works! Now, the way an Ice Tanker usually uses EA is by using the "snowball down the hill" tactic. That is;

* EA a group of mobs
* Move to the next one
* Wait for the 1st group to reach your position
* EA again
* Rinse and repeat as many times as you can/need.

That's how we're able to get enough def against mobs with either high accuracy or accuracy bonuses. That's also how we don't die while herding the mobs we need to fuel EA.
Now, if you actually follow my first recomendation (The same one I've been giving you for a while now) you can find this information all over this thread.

- And finally: This is the last time I reply to one of your comments. All you're doing now is trolling... Or at least it looks that way since you do nothing to find information about the issue (Information that is all over this thread, Tanker's forum and player guides' forum), and you're basing all your argument in nothing but suppositions.

Now... It's almost 5 am, I'm tired, time to get some sleep.

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Just a quick response to the last post. The only bugs in the "buggy environment" related to damage modifications based on level. So, an Ice Tanker gets hit no more and no less often than normal because of the tests. The accuracy modifiers are still in place.

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Uh... How different is that post from Statesman's post? That's what both say: Damage modifier (Nobody is talking about accuracy or duration). What both Statesman and Poz are saying (Or at least is what I understand and see from the demo posted by Statesman) is that everybody, hero or mob alike, are doing even level damage. That's why Statesman's DM/Regen was able to kill +8's, and that's why 20 +8's mobs weren't killing Statesman's DM/Regen... And the reason why Statesman's scrapper was able to hit those mobs so easily is because he was fueling "Soul Drain" with 20 mobs. You can see at the end of the demos that he fails more often, that's because they were less mobs around.

Now... What does all this means? That an Ice Tanker is very good when tanking even level mobs, just as good as any other tanker (Or even Scrappers). But that doesn't address mobs with high accuracy or higher level. Hell! Even my blaster can survive 10-15 even level monkeys... Even more if I pop a couple of lucks.

Oh! But we're not suppused to fight high levels (The whole 3 mobs = 1 hero)?!... Then I give you this.

Anyways, point is: Yes, that bug affects only damage... Yes, that is a "buggy enviroment"... Yes! They're holding I4 until they can re-test -hopefully- the whole system.

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As for rolling an Ice Tanker, I'd love to roll one, but I've already ran the +defense route with SR and have no intention of redoing that.

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Very well, same reason why I deleted my SR scrapper and rolled a DM/DA one... That and the fact that I foresee a nerf for you guys in the near future.

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What I don't get is why the Ice Tankers here actually want the majority of their defense in one single ability that requires multiple foes nearby (if the foes go down, so does your defense!) rather than spread out and/or mixed with more +res, based on the abilities (eg, +res vs all but psi with EA would be nice, wouldn't it??)?

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Just to point here: EA is not the mayority of our defense. We can tank up to +2's w/o EA. W/O EA we can get ~50% Def to all -{fire, toxic, psionic}. 20% Res to Toxic and 20-ish% def to fire, 90% Res to cold and 20-ish% Res to Fire... Those are good number if you plan to solo. What EA gives is the ability to be useful for teams, it gives us the extra edge... I'm talking about high accuracy mobs and mobs with nothing but fire. It's what let us tank those +3's and +4's that are so common during big team missions or during Trials/Respecs... Now, is not that we want "everything" in one place! The problem is that we don't understand the need to reduce the efectivity of a power that allows us to do 75-80% of what other tankers can do. The the reason why we don't really want Res is because we don't want to be Inv/ tankers. Fire is all Res, Inv and Stone are a mix... One with more Def, the other one with more Res, we're all Def... That's good. What I want to see is monsters doing less damage to us, and I also want them to leave EA the way it is... Anything lower then elite bosses are fine the way they are.

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I understand the devs make mistakes, but given the context of this thread, it's about Ice Armor and not really about whether Regen should be unnerfed because the devs made a mistake during internal testing....

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Again, that wasn't a bug that affected only Regen scrappers, that bug affects everybody since everybody was doing and receiving the same damage...

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But I'm not gonna accept the argument that just because the devs admitted to making a mistake they never have any clue what they're doing. Otherwise, let's get rid of Singularities and put Fold Space back in, put Elude back to a Phase Shift where you can't attack but you still have a small chance of being hit, and actually, get rid of the whole AT system so you can do like was done in beta, and take any two primaries and secondaries you choose.

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All those examples are things that people has been complaining about since beta because they were wrong. Finally the devs are starting to realize that all those things sound like a good idea, but they're not.
More examples of things that we've been asking to be change since beta and/or before going live from Test Server (Some of them we have, some of them we're getting with I4, some we don't know yet):

Stackable armors, fear not causing mobs to run, a better taunt, a better fly, a less end-draining Teleport, Res or Def to Sappers, Ice Tanker being able to tank AV's (At least more than 50% of them), rain powers to not break taunt or cause the mobs to run away, better Keldians, a higher damage cap for blasters, a different MoG, knockback res to */DA scrappers and Fire/* tankers... I can keep going if you want me to.

Anyways... I feel like I'm just repeating myself or others over and over again. I didn't say anything new here, so if you all excuse me I'm going to move to a different subject now unless something new is said, or until I feel like repeating myself or others again.

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I think I can guess at what the devs are thinking. Seems to me people are reacting as if there was no thought put into this whatsoever.

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Yes... Because the devs don't make mistakes. Hopefully that means that they're going to double check all the changes they're making... Including the ones to Ice Tankers and not only the ones to the scrappers.
BTW, if you (Or anyone reading this) don't know what that's all about, check here and read Statesman 's post about it in the "Re: Official Regen Nerf Thread"... I'm surprise this hasn't been mention here already.

As a side not read this one as well. Here is a little quote that makes me smile and feel sad everytime (I have a low level DM/DA Scrapper):

"We tested Dark Armor alongside Regen over the past week and found that Dark Armor Scrappers fared about as well as Regen Scrappers. We'll post the results soon."... No comments, just check the date and time of both posts... I'm sure we're not going to see those "test results" :P

What does that means? All the testing and "fixes" that the devs have been doing were done in a buggy enviroment.

About the rest of your posts: You have no idea what the heck you're talking about, do you? Roll an Ice Tanker a few levels, then we can talk about it... Or just read this whole thread. All 50 pages and take our word for it! We do know what are we talking about.

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Yep, it's very sad what a Monster with auto-hits can do to us :\ I don't care about farming, but not being able to do what the AT is suppoused to be able to do is very sad.

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I don't know if the stuff was autohit. They sure didn't have issues hitting me, and I don't think I ever defended properly fromthat horrible spit thing.

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The Kraken's Foot Stomp is an auto-hit PBAoE (Or at least one with huge accuracy) The range atack is toxic damage for what I remember (It has been a while since I did that mission), we don't have defenses for that kind of damage (thus an auto-hit)

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I did forget to mention that the +1 to me tanker could handle two of them, without much effort.

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Sounds about right. I remember doing that mission with an Inv/ Tanker friend of mine and he was able to tank a +2 Kraken just fine... I should mention that his wasn't/isn't a group friendly Tanker, he soloed a lot. I imagine a "good tank" tanker being able to handle 2 or those things.

Just be glad there wasn't an */Inv scrapper with you guys! Those guys at that level can handle the Kraken and other monsters/AV's just as fine as a tanker :\

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Not a huge farming fan either, but I just hate the discrepency.

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Understandable... At least for us, the people who actually play the game/AT.

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As an aside, I've just about gotten that spreadsheet done, with a lot of help from Circeus (thanks man! ). I don't have anyplace to host it, so I'm just trying to figure out the best way to post it here without the information being too difficult to read.

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Just let me know. I can host that for you no problem.

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I will say this, though; as better as invulnerability is compared to ice, it only gets worse with buff/debuffs.

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Not surprised :\... Not sure why are you even doing that

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So I've had some interseting experiences over the past few days that I'd like to share with my fellow ice tankers (yes, all 5 of us- we got a new member!).

First off, we're minor gods in PVP. Seriously. Hit 2-3 people with EA, then go grab a coke. Once taunt works properly (currentlyt if you die while taunted, you are permanantly taunted- nothing fun about that), -yikes-. We'll be heavily desired. From a balance standpoint, allowing us to buff off of 10 people would make us completely unfair in pvp- but I don't think this is a reasonable reason for the hit we're taking in PVE. Simply put, an Ice/EM right now can take out almost anything. I watched one decimate a team, one after another.

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Can't care less about how good can we do PvP. PvP is not the reason why I play this game. I'm happy to know that we can handle PvP, I just hope that's not the reason for EA's changes... I'm sure is not.

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I also last night tried my hand at 'kraken farming', because I was curious. I got taken apart, even with Tough. It was pretty humbling. No oneshots, but plenty of twoshots.

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Yep, it's very sad what a Monster with auto-hits can do to us :\ I don't care about farming, but not being able to do what the AT is suppoused to be able to do is very sad.

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I still think that coding Monster Class mobs to do only 50% of the damage that they currently do against Ice Tankers is the way to go...

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Sorry, but the CS major in me shudders at hard coding something like this. For one, if you do this for ice tankers, will you have to hard code this for SR scrappers because they are a defense based AT as well? And hey, melee guys get special treatment, let's hard code blasters speed to be 50% faster, so that they can stay out of melee range easier. Also, this solution just isn't elegant and neglects the problems inherent in our set. Instead of refining and balancing our set you want a quick shortcut that circumvents the mechanics of the game.

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As I stated on a previous post this is not that hard to code. We have a basic code right now that tells a spawned AV (Let's say Adamastor at Dark Astoria just to give it a name) to hit a lvl 30 hero for X points of damage, and a lvl 50 heroe for Y*X points of damage.

Now... Should they give this my SR scrappers as well? Of course not! Why should they? My SR scrappers is not suppoused to be tanking monsters or AV's!

Is that solution elegant? No. Is that solution good for role playing? No. Is that the easiest way? I really think so. Sometimes you need to sacrifice common sence for game balance.

Why does Brawl drops toggles in PvP and not PvE?
Why do powers "end drain" powers drain less endurance during PvP then during PvE?
Why can you do "A" during PvP and not during PvE? Not because it makes sence, but because of balance.
Shoud they let my blaster blast away without having to stop everytime? From a RP/Common sence point of view: Yes. Because of balancing? Then no... It's the same in this case.


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Resistance for any damage from any mob is too overpowered.

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What makes you say this? We aren't asking for 90% res. We just need something to prevent one-shots and mitigate the problems we have when defense isn't enough (mobs higher lvl then us, swarms, large packs where that 5% chance to hit occurs all too often, etc)

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What makes me say that? Read my post again. We can tank as good as any Inv/ or Stone/ tankers if we're only fighting anything equal or lower to a +3 level Elite Bosses. Let me say it again: Sure! Inv/ and Stone/ tankers can handle mobs with very high acc or auto-hits better than us, but we can handle slows and end drains better than Inv/ or Stone/. We can tank better than a Fire tanker, but they can do more damage then us. Mobs with high accuracy are a problem, but currently all we need to do is get more mobs to fuel EA and we're set to go.

And that's the reason why having even a 5% Unslotted +Res to anything -psionics is too much. We can handle normal situations just fine as it is, the only real problem is anything bigger than a Monster.

And then again all this is if you are only talking about current Ice Tankers. Once I4 with the new EA hits the Live Servers then you can just ignore what I'm saying... And after all, this is the whole reason for this threat... And that is the reason why we're back to the beggining:

Currently we don't need resistance to everything... Sinc EA is not overpowered, currently there is no reason to change EA the way is being changed. Currently all we need is some way to reduce the amount of damage a Monster/AV/Titan does to us since we can't always have a Dark/Kinetic/Radiation user with us.

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Besides... does Ice Patch work at all on AV's and Monsters?

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No, it doesn't. Or at least you need a hell lot of patches to do so. CE is not important (slow wise) against AV/Monster class mobs, their resistance to slow powers is really high (Again, you probably need a lot of CE around an AV to notice a difference)

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Perhaps the Devs do feel that CE is our current "super-power" that keeps us on par. We can slow down recharge rates, and should be taking fewer attacks, most of them will miss, and we should be fine. I remember doing a little "shuffle" dance at lower levels, to keep minions and Lt's who melee in my aura, but so that they would have to "run" to my location to attack again. Doing this, I could negate a good many attacks. Nice little power there...

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Again, if the Devs actually think that the CE's -Recharge/-Slow is what "keep us on par", then they're not really looking at the big picture here. I really don't think that's the case, but I have to admit that seeing what they're planning to do to EA I'm starting to have my doubts.

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But now? As I said, nothing short of multiple boss packs at +3 or more phase me. Only AV's and Monsters stand toe-to-toe. Do I think they'll be vulnerable to my little shuffle dance? No... They'll drop their Nuke, or get that big hit off. Back to square one.

I think the Ice set works well other then that. I'd just like to see us Tanking AV's and Monsters with the rest, and having some way to keep that damage from pouring in unexpectedly.

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I say this before, and I'm going to say it again:

As it is right now Ice tanker can do just as good as any other tanker can... That is when tanking anything from minions to Elite Bosses! We can handle the situation as good as any Inv/* or Stone/* tanker.
True! Swarns can do horrible things to us, but we don't have to worry about slow efects (Inv and Stone do... Specially poor Stone tankers)
We're horrible agains psionic damage, but then again so is everybody else (Except Stone tankers). Mobs with very high acc or def debuffs can be a danger, but we can work around that by fueling EA with more and more mobs.
The problems begin when we need to fight anything higher than a Monster, even with a lot of minions fueling EA.

But now this new EA is just going to cause us even more problems.

Now, we DO NOT need resistance.I used to think that we did, but after really thinking about the set I realize that we don't need that. Hell! Take the Cold/Fire/Toxic res away for what I care! What we need is for geko to leave alone EA, and do something about the damage we get from +Monster only. I still think that coding Monster Class mobs to do only 50% of the damage that they currently do against Ice Tankers is the way to go... But only for Monsters and up, and not talking about psionic damage either.

Resistance for any damage from any mob is too overpowered.

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However 1-shotting should not happen to a tank IMO. Actually I'd think not for Scrappers too, but hey I like melee folks.

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No tanker should be once-shotted by anything... Not even 2 shotted by anything +/-2 levels.
Scrappers? I don't have a problem with an AV doing that to one of my scrappers. Monsters/bosses/anything else? No, no reason for that to happen.

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My comment about no red name posts is that I'd at least like to see some feedback. There are some really good ideas in this thread, not to mention Circeus' number crunching that I'd like to see some commentary on (I know they're reading this, so I hope at least they're having an "Ice Armor meeting: The Theory and Practice of Ice Tanking).

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A "yes, we know you guys are there" post would be nice... Not important, but nice.

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Also been thinking about CE. It helps all teammates, although more so those in melee/close to the Ice Tank. So essentially we're giving everyone 25% less attacks (ok I typed that wrong but I can't think right now) coming from the enemies. So do the other sets have a similar power? (mudpost maybe? I haven't played Stone Armor yet) I know it's more of a control aspect, but I wonder how much that weighs in the Dev's mind in terms of the value of the power.

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Stone's Mud Pots is a PBAoE Foe Immobilize, -Speed.
Ice's Chilling Embrace is a PBAoE Foe -Speed, -Recharge.

Now, personally I've found the -Speed/-Recharge to be useful at the lower levels. After lvl 20 or so that is not that important, and after getting Ice Patch (Ice/Ice here) I don't even think about those anymore! The only think I have in mind when I toggle CE is Taunt.

Now, I know that not everybody is a */Ice tanker, but if CE is part of the reason why the devs think EA is too powerfulm then that only gives more credit to what must of us think about EA changes: They're not looking at the big picture!

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I love Hibernate and I want to keep it as close to what it is now as possible but I agree it needs a change or two. The main problem seems to be this:

1) right now the ice tank is safe and healing but when taunt runs out if you are still hibernating the rest of the team is screwed

2) if you give hibernate an aggro ability then there is no risk for the reward.

So my suggestion is that hibernate should extend out as far as EA and all enemies in this radius should be affected the same way the tank is minus the healing.

So say you're fighting a heard of 20 freaks and they all get lucky shots in at once. You hit hibernate but instead of just you becoming invulnerable they are all incased in ice too and also become invulnerable. Your team will be safe but they also wont be able to earn cheap kills.

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That's basically phase-shifting the mobs. Do you know how much people hates when a Force Field, gravity or Dark Miasma user phase-shifts one or more enemies?

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But it would be a toggle, so you could shut it off at any time.

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A "phase-shift enemie" that is more useful/powerful than the controllers/defenders version? Sounds too powerful that way.

I feel Hibernate is a lame power the way it is right now, and it needs to be change. If I keep playing my tanker after I4, Hibernate is one of the powers I'm not taking (As it is my tanker is sitting there, with the comming changes to EA I don't feel like playing him)

Personally I like the idea of giving Hibernate a taunt aura, up to recharge time, and make the power shutdown as soon as you have full HP.

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I love Hibernate and I want to keep it as close to what it is now as possible but I agree it needs a change or two. The main problem seems to be this:

1) right now the ice tank is safe and healing but when taunt runs out if you are still hibernating the rest of the team is screwed

2) if you give hibernate an aggro ability then there is no risk for the reward.

So my suggestion is that hibernate should extend out as far as EA and all enemies in this radius should be affected the same way the tank is minus the healing.

So say you're fighting a heard of 20 freaks and they all get lucky shots in at once. You hit hibernate but instead of just you becoming invulnerable they are all incased in ice too and also become invulnerable. Your team will be safe but they also wont be able to earn cheap kills.

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That's basically phase-shifting the mobs. Do you know how much people hates when a Force Field, gravity or Dark Miasma user phase-shifts one or more enemies?

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Almost! That chart has recharge times, but not the length of time the buff/debuff lasts. Thanks again though!

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That's why I also included the CoH Planner's link. There buff durations are there.

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Thanks, LeMoi. It's definitely going to help, but to get a full picture, I'm also going to need base recharge times and the base buff time length as well.

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Ok. Here.

You can get the duration, the previous and some other information by using Joe Chott's CoH Planner

Anything else before I go to sleep?

Oh! And Ampersand, lvl 3 Dark/Psi Defender is ready and waiting to see what happen with EA after I4 goes live at Atlas Park (Liberty Server)

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If I have the time this weekend (I have to work, so it'll be a little harder), I want to put together a listing of all defensive and resistance buffs for a comparison. I already know that there are more of the defensive type, but I'd be interested to see how much benefit each skill grants.


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Here You can better enjoy your weekend now

BTW: Dark/* Defenders are our friends ... Probably Dark/Psychic the best of them all... I may actually roll one if they keep EA the way it is on test.

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Can anyone give us all the stats for EA?

I know that the defense per enemy affected is 18.75%

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That number I don't know if is for Test's EA or Live Server's EA. From geko's post it could be either way.

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But what about:
Duration

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45 Seconds

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Recharge

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60 Seconds

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End Cost

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20-ish End Points

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End Drained

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Depends, even level minions is about 1/3 of their end.

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Range(compare this to Chilling Embrace's range, please)


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Have you seen Tanker/Blaster's Ice Patch? Larger than that. 1.5 times larger maybe? That would make EA to have 3-4 times the range of CE.

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Thanks

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NP.

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Okay, its like this...

Lets say the defense on primary armors (FA/GA) were capped at 30%, and your secondary armor (WI) were left at around 20%, and Chilling Embrace still offered its 25% Recharge rate reduction.

And then lets say we wholesale switched EA from DEF to RES, keeping the buff the same.

Under this scenario, from 1 to 4 mobs from +0 to +6 level mobs, Invuln wins through every comparison.

At exactly 5 mobs, Ice is marginally ahead, but Invuln still gains and eventually exceeds Ice at +5/+6 level mobs.

And from 6 to 10 mobs Invuln again takes the lead because Ice simply doesn't get any better at that point (whether the 5 mob cap is in place for EA or not).

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I've been thinking about the fact that Ice Tankers have only Defense, and I actually like that.
I don't want the devs to go ahead with the EA changes since is the only way we can get our defenses high enough under extreme conditions (Again: Against stuff like DE's quartz beacons the only way we are able to tank is by adding more and more mobs to the group)

To be honest in general we can tank just as good as any other tanker, what I'd like to see is for the devs to code Monsters, AV's and the likes to do only 50% of the damage (-psionics) that they currently do against Ice Tankers. Why not psionics? Because no tanker has a +Res Psionics power (Stone provides defense agianst psionics only)

It may sound hard to do, but the mechanics are in place already! After all spawned AV/Monsters cone purple "even level" to everybody... In fact if you go to the Monster Island on Test the monsters there don't have a level number anymore! I imagine that's true for all other zone monsters/AV's. How hard could it be to add an extra field that tells the monster to inflict only 50% of the damage?

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I'd love to see something other then resistance, to give us a different flavor. Damage debuff from chilling aura or another power? That'd work, and make teams really want us.

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Seems like that would be great for icicles. And it would make a big improvement to the tankiness of Ice Tankers while giving it even more of a controller/defender feel.

Enervating Field and Darkest Night debuff the enemies damage by around 30-35%, I think. If icicles debuffed its targets by ~15%, I think it would make a huge difference to our tanking ability without stepping on any other AT's toes. Heck, considering that Icicles requires a successfull hit, you could make the debuff even larger. This would also give us a little bit of help against Psi damage.

All it would need to be is enough to keep us from being one shotted. Just leave enough life for us to react when something hits us.

Then leave EA as able to grab defense from only 5 enemies, but make sure it agros and drains end from all in melee range.

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You see! There is an idea! Replacing Hibernate with a power like Storm Summoning/Steamy Mist with a +Res(All -psionics), but make it not a "Location AoE", but a PBAoE Toggle like Chilling Embrace (With a way larger area, of course)

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Guys, my post was about fire damage. F. I. R. E. Everyone here knows I have Tough, we've established that. We've established that Ice has no Smash/Lethal rec, that my opinions are somewhat skewed, etc etc. And Circ, I'm a bit ashamed, just a few posts ago you affirmed the fact that we can hit the def cap with ease from hitting 5 enemies, so 5 or 40, it doesn't really matter. My fact was that Fire is not a problem; that was one of the things brought up way back when, and I'm just making a segway back to it. The issues still are, and always will be: Smash/Lethal Res, Psy Def/Res, Hibernate, Icicles (for you guys atleast), and whatever else we feel like bickering about.

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You're missing the point. (a) Infermals Axe does Lethal damage and if you're in melee range that's what he uses, and (b) he's an AV he has a higher base Accuracy than 85%. Not sure what it is to be honest, but my calcs show most AVs are 120% to 150% or more.

So I was merely stating why your survivabity was so well. So you're set to surive for an extended period in there. If you had only been taking buffs from 5 mobs you never would have floored Infernal's Accuracy. Getting buffs from 40 or more mobs which is very typical for that mission would certainly do it. you can do that on live. You can't on test.

So, again try it on test. And turn off Tough.

Not to mention that I clearly stated that the way to solve the gap is not Resistance. But hey, filter out whatever you like.

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Even with Tough running. Infernal uses Fire only atacks, too... If his Cleave doesn't one shoot you, Incinerate will.

And at the end, no matter how careful you are and how many times you ask your teammates a tanker is going to end up one-on-one agains most AV's.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that no matter how "powerful" EA is, Ice Tankers if anything are underpowered. So, why the hit to EA?

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Meh.

As to all those old fire damage argument, I did the infernal mish tonight as the only tank, fighting lvl 49s, I was 46. I tanked about 50 of them, a nice blend of minions and lts, a few bosses, and of course Inf. I never dropped below half life. Too bad we had no damage base and my whole team died trying to destroy the altar. Always a sad ending....

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Question: Did you tank Infernal by himself? Or where there minions around still? (I guess the last one since you say your team couldn't take the Portal down). If that's the case then fire is not a problem, all you need is a few minions to fuel EA and you're set to go. Once you're going one-on-one against Infernal the pain begins, specially when he uses his fire only atacks. Any other tanker can stand in front of him all day long if they please (Or any other AV for that matter).

EA is also the reason why we're able to tank Nemesis and CoT's deamons. Once I4's EA goes live we're not going to be able to tank Nemesis as well as we can now (By that I mean that we're not going to want more than 4 lieutenants dieing at once)... CoT's Demons are going to be ok unless there is a Ruin Mage or two around.

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If you read through this thread and find the experience information on how EA affects battles you can see it is not overpowered. Sure it floors mobs your own level and close but given debuffs, mob accuracy and level fall off it balances with tougher and more deadly foes.

Dont get off track here people, this isnt about problems with other ice armor powers despite how much permafrost may need a boost. This is about the proposed change to EA.

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Yes, we've been kind of getting of track once in a while, but I think it's because we can't really stress enough how "bad" the whole set is.

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Geko one of EAs advantages you state is that its a fast recharge click, however at its huge endurance cost i dont see that as so advantageous. Consider lowering its end cost or this idea of mine that ill repeat because it seems no one caught it: Have EA return some END (it fits with the flavor/name of the power anyway and would help poor end hog ice) so that 2 drained foes made it in effect free to use and 3+ was a gain to make up for now having to slot to stack it.

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I did see your post before, and to be honest EA does sounds like a power that is going to let you recharge your end bar. With that I'm not saying that EA should do that! If Geko thinks that EA is too powerful as is it, can you imagine it what would happen if we had some kind of end recovery?!?!

And then it all comes down to the fact that no one here understands how EA is too powerful?! A power that is too powerful is one that lets you do things that no other can, with little effort. Any Inv/* or Stone/* tanker can do what I do and better, with the same and even less slots than those that we need (Prymary Powers, that is)

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Most of these posts seem to be saying: The change to EA isn't that bad (although I keep flashing to that first wall in the Eden Trial and thinking that the End drain to all may have helped when surrounded by a thousand little baddies), but Ice Tanks aren't quite as tank-y as the other tanks.

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The problem with people thinking that the chance isn't bad is because they haven't test what having this cap means... Or maybe they don't usually fight enemies with high accuracy, or mobs with ways to lower you defense.
Wait until the change makes it online and you're going to see them crying. I have done my testing, I know that once this EA hits the Live Servers DE are going to be anything but posible to tank (Unless you're fighting even level mobs or lower), Nemesis/CoT/Crey/Rikti (The drones specially) are going to be very hard, anything with psionic damage is going to be has hard as ever (and a little more). That leaves Freakshows and a few other random mobs (Mobs w/o radiation, psionic, auto-hits and/or high accuracy)

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My SR Scrapper can do everything my Ice Tank can do only better (the scrapper has defense to all types although the Tank has way higher HP so can take a hit better). So, if it's not broken for a scrapper to have defense to all damage types, why is it not okay for the Ice Tanks? You still have the 5% floor that is going to kill you if you have too many people around and the limitation of EA if you don't have enough of them around.

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Not sure what to tell you here. I'd love to have psionic defense, but I think that if I had to choose between (Pre-I4 EA -psionic) and (Post-I4 EA +psionic), I'd take the 1st one.

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Weave, in my opinion isn't necessary, and if it forces you to drop a power because you want Psy defense, then it's just another argument for added Psy defense for Tankers, not

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Pre I4 I'd agree... Post I4 I'm not so sure. Only time will tell.

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And, ONCE AGAIN, where are all your slots going!? From my build you can see that I have EA, Icicles, FA, WI, Stamina, and 3 attacks 6 slotted.

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I'm not in front of my PC, nor am I going to try to remember my current build and the one I want to have (Too much wine). As soon as I recover from tonight I'll post my current build, a post I4 build the way I think I'm going to be able to tank based on my testing so far, and the build that I actually would like to have... (BTW, you gotta love a party with good wine, good cheese, good movies and hot girls )

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"What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles."

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I agree with your statement here, but my argument is that I believe there is no conceivable build where you have to actually DROP Icicles to take a power that will define your tanking ability. If anything I'd drop an EPP, but I know how many of you rabid Conserve Power fans there are out there, but that's just one EPP.

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Just so you know I'm not into the whole CP EPP. In fact my build was/(is maybe?) going to be an Ice/Ice/Ice tanker. Let's not assume things here. If I wanted a cookie cutter I'd be playing an Inv/Em.

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My argument, one last time for all you people who continue to miss it, is that there is always room for Icicles, and there should be plenty of room to 6 slot Icicles, or at the very least 3 or 4 slot it. Always.

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I don't think we're arguing that, my only problem is that we're actually wasting energy in such an un-important.

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If anyone cares to debate my one argument, post your build and I will critique and fix it so that you may enjoy the quirky little fun power that is Icicles.

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I'll post my build... Probably monday. But just to show you why is that I feel that EA is just hurting our current build. About the whole "I'll fix it for you" thing... Let's just leave it there! I see your build and I go "What is he thinking?" But then again I don't like being part of small team when tanking. Not trying to be an [censored] with you, this is just my drunken way of saying: Please, let's don't thing we're mighty.

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Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.

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I think you're giving Icicles way too much credit. Icicles is a power that comes with the set and that you take if there isn't anything better to take. It's not a defining power, nor a power that makes you go "wow! I gotta make an Ice tanker".

Icicles is an ok power at lower levels (By lower I mean before lvl 28 or so)... After that slowly looses it's charm. It is an ok power if you solo or are part of very small teams a lot (By small I mean 4 or less heroes). I saw your build and you're probably part of the solo/small team crowd.

Invincibility from Inv/ tankers, Burn from Fire Tankers, or Nova from Energy Blasters... Those are powers that makes you want to make an AT.

What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles. Perfect example is this I4's EA! To make that power be of any use you're going to need to add a few slots to it. In my case I'd take those slots from Icicles.

Another power is Wave. As it is nowadays, a few Ice Tankers take Wave to gain some psionic defense. If I was to take Wave, Icicles is the power that has to go.

So, what's to point to all this? What I said a few post ago: Icicles is not a defining/balancing power. Icicles is not worth wasting our time for now. Icicles is not the reason why the devs feel the need to hurt EA so bad... Why are we even talking about Icicles? Let's talk about what's really important here: Energy Absorbtion, and the fact that it's Saturday night. PARTY TIME!