Labrynth

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I'm surprised there's this much drama and personal shot-taking over a team that didn't win a match... especially given that it's in the later weeks of TPvPL.

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I have never quoted someone before in my sig, but I really think this might be worth it. You do realize that when you trash talk an SG in front of one of its members, that that person is going to tell his friends, right? You really are a tool Silent.

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Oh Lab, you're such a whiney [censored]. Still better than Foo though, I suppose. I hear he's slow on kin.

<3

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where is jimmay at? im thirsty

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I'm surprised there's this much drama and personal shot-taking over a team that didn't win a match... especially given that it's in the later weeks of TPvPL.

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I have never quoted someone before in my sig, but I really think this might be worth it. You do realize that when you trash talk an SG in front of one of its members, that that person is going to tell his friends, right? You really are a tool Silent.

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LOL Lab, Silent didn't want to go out and post a long QQ as to why his team lost, so he's been posting short little comments about how his blaster was lagging, or how they were down 1 person etc to bait someone into commenting about the 2-3 cagers they brought so he could post his long QQ.


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lol i know Foo, was being sarcastic. Doesnt take a Harvard student to decipher Silent's [censored].

Saw terp get hit in the last match with 3 sonic siphons and then 1x blaze and 1x will dom. Brought his health down into the red. There were no followups after that though.

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This is exactly the response I'd been waiting to hear today

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So thats why you have been posting the same comments all over the forums. Thought it might have been a short-term memory loss thing.

Grats OS! :P

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Revised Roster

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@Jagori
@Atomic Tactics - leader
@-Decimate - leader
@Motorboat
@Vinnie - leader
@Frost Reborn - leader
@-Fates
@Pale Moon Alchemist
@Buda
@Spec
@Ice Hazard-2
@Earth Marne1
@Lacuna Furlong
@HUGE PvPness
@Anichi
@Cool Arc
@Fire Hazard
@Divine Majestic
@Doctor Antec2
@Swallow This
@Shallow Throat
@Huge Peanus
@TinyPeanus
@Teh Mags
@HELL OH
@Mama Horns1
@Killer Phantom
@HP
@Hoj 619
@Hojay1
@Alter Aly
@Unholy Weapon
@Hugh-Jass1
@Sorrows - Elligible for play December 18th, 2007


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so confused i dont know up from down anymore

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^ <--- up
v <---- down

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According to Microsoft Sam (Ventrilo Text-to-speech Voice) "^" is "Circumflex Accent"...not "up".

but then again, Microsoft Sam says "Crotch" is "Crow's Nest", so I don't know if I can believe him.

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Foo and Lab are manuevers

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shame you left VR before you could join the party

Selectable Maps
OAS Issues
Hero / Villain Balance
Buff underperforming powersets (would like to see more variety in arena)

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the jal v fol match went: Fol wins match 1 39-20, JaL wins match 2 35-23, FoL wins match 3 72-17

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Ahhhh...... Still, where's the Epic?

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Must find that epic JAL vs Penance match... where the hell is krole at?

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I would agree that most of the arguments to nerf cage aren't terribly valid, and I certainly wouldn't be upset if Sonic Resonance remained just as it is. Additionally, I'm very hesitant to request any dev involvement in changes because they have a history of very heavy-handed changes (see Fire Blast, Dominators, Containment...).

That said, I do believe cage is a powerful tool that is often the deciding factor in arena matches. IF it needs to be changed, I'd favor the short supression on the same target from the same caster - nothing terribly extreme. And really my only argument is encouraging variety - variety of cage targets and variety of effective line-ups. I'd personally like it, but whether that's worth it or not, I don't know.

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That would be fine as well. Like I said before, I dont have a problem with the sonic cage power. I have a problem with someone getting perma-caged for an entire match (or being forced to sit at the top of a really high building the entire match to try and "evade" being caged)

The -fun argument is one that basically is just saying that no one wants to show up to a match if they are going to be perma-caged. You say that they should just deal with it, but thats the problem. There is no way to deal with it. No matter what the person does, they are going to be taken out of the match.

Like Goldie said, heavy evading takes the person out without the use of a cage, so you cant even list that as a counter.

Killing the cager might make things slightly more difficult, but all he has to do is use one power on you every 15 seconds, which is not that hard to do. This is also forcing your entire team to change their focus, and most likely go after the less ideal option.

Using phase accomplishes the same thing as evading. You are taking yourself out while you do this. As soon as you go back to doing your primary role, youll be right back in cage.

And every team out there cannot be 3x storms, 2x FFs, 2x emps to try and stack enough defense to stop a single cage.

Every counter currently out there for cage sucks. Any of the ideas mentioned would go a long way to helping the issue...

- resist cage attribute on a current buff like ID or an inspiration
- supression so that a perma-cage is not possible.

And I really cant say that I understand your AR argument. From what I can gather, you are following the rule of thumb of buff under performing sets / powers instead of nerfing the overpowered ones. So your suggesting that every power in the game be made so that it doesnt have a counter? 1-shotting people with blaze wouldnt be a good idea IMO

This thread is a poll asking the players what should be done about caging. How could you say that subjectivity has no place?

And I have never said that cage was OP. Its not. However, it does cause the -fun effect that was previously mentioned. And yes, there are counters to it, but nothing direct. Evading is something that can be used against any tactic, not just caging.

Lets look at Taunt, which would be pretty close to cage in terms of what it accomplishes. Assault and Break Frees both have taunt resist that lowers the duration of taunt. Here are two direct counters to taunt that players can use in addition to the global counters that can be used against everything (evading, phasing, killing whoever is doing it). Give cage some kind of direct counter and it will be on-par with other mechanics in the game.

Im not arguing that sonic or FF is OP and needs to be nerfed. Im arguing that the cage mechanic is broken and should be fixed. Cage allows someone to choose another player and effectively put them out of the match. With no direct counter, the caged player is left regretting even showing up.

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Okay, so you are a zone PvPer. That explains a few things. My post, and my opinion are completely in regards to arena pvp.

I mentioned in my original post that I am well aware of the different tactics you can use to evade a cage, but overall you are still putting yourself out of the match while doing these things.

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phase shift, ethereal shift, warburg shift

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Yes, you can phase at the end of the cage to avoid getting caged immediately after. However, it wont take long for the sonic to realize you are doing this. Any decent sonic would adapt and start testing you with a quick blast. If it dmgs you, he cages. If not, he waits.

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purples / fort

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Ever heard of Aim? 99% of the sonics in high-end arena matches are defenders with aim. The defense thing has been tried many many times and it does not work. Ive heard of people popping 8x purples and still get caged through it.

Please try and come up with a "counter" to phase that I didnt hear about 2 years ago. They dont work.

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kay.. ill take you up on the defense doesn't work in the arena thing.
acknowledged.


still.. the mere fact that every AT has a way to counter the cage, and that in a good team, the cager is gonna get a few fireballs/bibs/cosmic bursts(lolz) to the face (which at this point would possibly make perma caging nearly impossible with the 15 second duration nerf in place, as it would drop hasten), points to the fact that hey!, perma-caging is only a problem if you let it be a problem.

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And every AT's counter to cage is what? Phase? Look to my previous point as to why that doesnt work.

The other counter of keeping the cager perma-dead is also not really gonna happen. Only way to truly prevent him from caging is to literally spawn camp him the whole match. This is really really looked down upon in official matches. Even if your team did decide to do this, it wouldnt be hard for the sonic to adapt and play evasion from the beginning. The only thing the sonic would have to do is to cast cage every 15 seconds, something im sure he could fit in even when being camped.

Okay, so you are a zone PvPer. That explains a few things. My post, and my opinion are completely in regards to arena pvp.

I mentioned in my original post that I am well aware of the different tactics you can use to evade a cage, but overall you are still putting yourself out of the match while doing these things.

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phase shift, ethereal shift, warburg shift

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Yes, you can phase at the end of the cage to avoid getting caged immediately after. However, it wont take long for the sonic to realize you are doing this. Any decent sonic would adapt and start testing you with a quick blast. If it dmgs you, he cages. If not, he waits.

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purples / fort

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Ever heard of Aim? 99% of the sonics in high-end arena matches are defenders with aim. The defense thing has been tried many many times and it does not work. Ive heard of people popping 8x purples and still get caged through it.

Please try and come up with a "counter" to phase that I didnt hear about 2 years ago. They dont work.

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Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb. Like it has been mentioned before, imagine showing up to practices for 2 weeks prior to a match. Then setting aside RL for a night to make sure that you make the match. Then in that match, you are perma-caged. It was one of the reasons that I stopped playing this game for ~2 years.

The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged. There are a few tricks you can do here or there to make things more difficult for the cager, but if he wants you caged the whole match, you can expect it to happen.

Despite me hating cage more then any other power in the game, I think its concept is one that could be really cool in PvP. Lets say you were to drop the duration of cage to 5 seconds. It would still have plenty of use. You could use it on a blaster that just popped aim and BU. You could use it on an empath along with your teams' spike. Cage can still be extremely useful without having the ability to just remove one person from the match.

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crybaby.
bring your own sonic.
that's your fault there.


no one in your team can level a sonic?
you deserve to be perma-caged.
blame your team.

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So, your solution to too much caging...is more caging?

That's [censored] brilliant! Why didn't we think of that?

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yar.
a sonic can effectively be taken out of the match for a duration (based on skill) by another sonic.
even skilled sonics will take turns taking each other out of the match.
noting that no one is getting permacaged, the issue stands resolved.

leave it as is.
even though i really really like koc's idea about the 4 ojs.

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So your solution for someone who hates being perma-caged is to play a sonic and trade off cages with another sonic, so that you are then both out of the match? How can you not see this as really dumb?

Do you even have a sonic? There is a delay on cage effects that allows the player to act for 1-2 seconds before they are no longer effecting other players. This means that two sonics exchanging cages will keep each other perma-caged, assuming one of them isnt a complete idiot.

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3

Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb. Like it has been mentioned before, imagine showing up to practices for 2 weeks prior to a match. Then setting aside RL for a night to make sure that you make the match. Then in that match, you are perma-caged. It was one of the reasons that I stopped playing this game for ~2 years.

The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged. There are a few tricks you can do here or there to make things more difficult for the cager, but if he wants you caged the whole match, you can expect it to happen.

Despite me hating cage more then any other power in the game, I think its concept is one that could be really cool in PvP. Lets say you were to drop the duration of cage to 5 seconds. It would still have plenty of use. You could use it on a blaster that just popped aim and BU. You could use it on an empath along with your teams' spike. Cage can still be extremely useful without having the ability to just remove one person from the match.

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crybaby.
bring your own sonic.
that's your fault there.


no one in your team can level a sonic?
you deserve to be perma-caged.
blame your team.

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This is a joke right?

I have a lvl 50 sonic. I used to use it in official matches when I was in Tribute (might have heard of them). I was prolly the first person to effectively use sonic in serious matches.

VR uses sonics, and has plenty of people who have them. I personally hate playing a sonic because of cage. Perma-caging one person is a cheap tactic that Id prefer not to use.

Even if the devs removed sonic cage all together, a sonic would still be worth bringing to the arena.

3

Caging, as it is now, is really really dumb. Like it has been mentioned before, imagine showing up to practices for 2 weeks prior to a match. Then setting aside RL for a night to make sure that you make the match. Then in that match, you are perma-caged. It was one of the reasons that I stopped playing this game for ~2 years.

The argument that keeping someone perma-dead does the same thing is ridiculous. There are counters to being killed. There is no direct counter to being perma-caged. There are a few tricks you can do here or there to make things more difficult for the cager, but if he wants you caged the whole match, you can expect it to happen.

Despite me hating cage more then any other power in the game, I think its concept is one that could be really cool in PvP. Lets say you were to drop the duration of cage to 5 seconds. It would still have plenty of use. You could use it on a blaster that just popped aim and BU. You could use it on an empath along with your teams' spike. Cage can still be extremely useful without having the ability to just remove one person from the match.

I should poach for a living...

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And the list grows. 23 people, internal 8v8s must be nice.

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WHO WILL BE NUMBER 24?! 2 SETS OF 8V8'S OR 6V6V6V6!

(i coulda had a V8)

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chu... where is ur family from again?

2 years of rust is definitely meaningless...

I will definately be updating this guide sometime soon. Cant get an ideal look at the above build till I get home, but there are a few things I can tell I would do differently.

Always meant to update this after the WW nerf, but never got around to it. Yeah.. dont use it. I might eventually update this guide, but it will be awhile before I can as I am kind of a year behind everyone else :P

good to see people are still getting use out of this

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Escape TP is really nice.. but for the Empath, doesn't it require dropping one of Fitness, Speed, Leaping or Concealment? All of which seem crucial to me.


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Exactly

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QFT

Concealment and TP both work as escape power pools. IMO, Phase is a better escape then TP is, so I would go with that pool hands down.

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I can only assume that your detractor has failed to read or understand the term PvP in your guide. While I don't agree with all their suggestions, they're not terrible from a PvE perspective.

Of course, I could be wrong, in which case, I'd like to request a match against his team.

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lol no. If you read his "guide" you will see that it is actually intended for PvP. And yes, I would love to face his team as well.

Havent checked this thread in awhile, but WOW at the other guide that was posted here. Wouldnt normally do this, but after this comment...

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This is the WORST Empath Guide I think I've EVER read in my life.


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I feel I must tear apart his purely awful suggestions. Okay, heres not what to do as an empath defender...

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This is a crucial PvP power because it means a player does not have to respawn in the Hospital and with 1 HP. EVERY PvP player that can take a rez SHOULD.

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I prefer to keep my teammates alive. In a PvP zone, you might be able to justify taking this power, but even then, theres problems with it. Whenever I see an empath use a rez, I usually gun for them right away, due to the delay in the power. I know its a perfect time to AS that empath. If someone on my team dies, then the other team is keeping pressure on me, meaning I dont have time to go and rez anyone.

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DEFENSE against PSIONIC ATTACKS. Vital to PvP.


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Only Psi that poses any threat is from Rad/Psi Defenders. With Tactics + RI, theyre going to hit through Power Boosted Fort any day of the week. Fort is a great power for pvp, but not because of its defense to psi.

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I would suggest at LEAST 3 attacks from you're secondary

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Sadly, no you dont. Attacks mean suppression. Suppression means death. If you have time to stop and attack someone, then your prolly part of a gank squad of 8 going around a pvp zone killing all of the solo PvE'rs. In any challenging PvP situation (Test Arena PvP), no empath is going to have any time to attack. Dont believe me, ask Hobo Healer. Hes been playing his empath in pvp since its release. It used to work back when HOs were 50%, but after that its just a much better idea to focus entirely on ur primary and power pools.

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Hasten is optional, get it if you like the speed route or skip it and team with a kinetic instead for Speed Boost.
The other speed powers are your choice.


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No, Hasten is not optional. Helps the recharges on ur auras, fort, and AB. No reason to not take this.

Also, Super speed is not optional. Its mandatory. When someone on ur team is getting attacked, and you are not within range of them, you need to move to them as fast as you possibly can. This is where SS is needed. Every split second counts when you are an empath.

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This pool is decent in PvP. I find the set less than thrilling, even with the Knockback defense from Acrobatics. I just like to be able to STAY in the air.

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You should see what the Test PvP'rs do to people who think this way :P. Before every match, everyone tries to check everyone else's powers to see if theres any weaknesses. No acrobatics is like winning the lottery for a storm or FF. Go into a PvP match without acro against an FF user and you will Knocked back the entire match, while also Dying A LOT. Good PvP'rs learn their opponents weaknesses and exploit the hell out of them. No KB protection is a HUGE weakness.

Would continue to comment on how you completely disregard the best travel power in the game for PvP (Super Jump), but this post is already too lengthy.

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Hover is great for teleport.
Fly allows fast (although not the fastest) travel in all 3 axis.
Group Fly is OK for PvP if you want to shuttle around teammates and great for Hammi raids and such. Personally, I don't care for it...but I DO like the visual effect of the power.
Air superiority - good quick extra attack.

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- Dont use TP unless ur escaping. Dont need hover for that
- Air Supperiority is an attack. You dont like attacks.
- I became a good empath as soon as I stopped using Fly. Its the slowest travel power. Horrible for an empath.
- If I saw anyone on a PvP team use Group Fly, I would immediately either kick them or leave the team. Your guide is horrible, but I still cant fathom why you would mention Group Fly in the same sentance as PvP. PvP'rs joke about using this power to grief their own team.

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---Leadership---
If you are a defender without leadership...YOU STINK. Take Assault and Tactics (required) AND Vengeance (optional), if EVERYONE is a Super Team oriented toon, take maneuvers as well. You'll thank yourself when an ally falls, you fire vengeance, rez your fallen comrade and give him fortitude and clear mind and adrenaline boost...

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1) Always keep moving.


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At least you got one point correct. You are suppose to keep moving, but while you are doing that (and also staying at range), you are not giving anyone the benefits of Leadership. You dont need accuracy or damage, cause you shouldnt be attacking. The defense maneuvers gives (even for defenders) is not enough to make any kind of difference. Leadership is amazing for sets like storm or rad or kin, but its a horrible idea for a PvP Empath. You always want to be moving and you dont want to be in the middle of everything.

Okay, so theres plenty of other points in your "guide" that I could talk about, but I dont want this post to be longer than my actual guide.