Kazarak

Here's another idea. The game takes your highest level character and remembers his/her level. Until you reach that level you earn 50% (or 75% or whatever) more xp than normal. You continue to earn the bonus xp until you reach that remembered level). If you sk to someone higher than the remembered level, you earn regular xp.

Won't solve most of the PLing problems but will alleviate it a small amount AND will help encourage people to play alts, which just adds replay value which is good.

Any fix to earning XP without risk is going to be very, very tricky for the devs. Some of the proposed solutions:

TimeOuts for AFK earners = They just won't be afk
Distance for earning xp = They'll just follow but stay out of aggro range
Earning XP without fighting = hurts support heroes

Even if they change it so you have to be within aggro range to earn xp, what about runners who are taking DoT? What about patrol missions? What about regular groups that are spread out?

This is a pretty tricky problem (if it's a problem at all). The only solution I can think of is to degrade over time xp for SKs who aren't contributing. You can say that the SK has to prove themselves, or earn their keep...Healing/buffing a group member or a master would count as contributing. Of course, PL'd SKs will just throw in a buff or a heal here and there to offset this, but at least it requires some work on their part.

For anyone who knows programming this how it work...

1. Place a counter with the SK every time they contribute. Multiple contributions in a very short time don't count (i.e. casting 7 heals in 30 seconds)...
2. Slightly drop the counter over time.
3. If the counter = 0 then decrease xp over time

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If Pling isn't cheating then it is the most unusual game feature that I have ever seen.

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Gee how is having friends higher level than you cheating? Seriously, the anti-PL people really sound like they're sickly jealous of those who can progress levels faster than them.

~ A A ~

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Actually the real culprit here is the multiple definitions we have for PLing.

My definition:

Simple SKing = Not PLing
Grouping with someone within the 8 lvl limit = Not PLing
AFK and earning XP = Not PLing (lazy and stupid, but not PLing)

Using a combination of SKing, range + grouping to your advantage = PLing and exploiting
Using any exploit to level a lower level unnaturally fast = PLing

To me PLing occurs outside of the rules. It's bending the rules or looking for loopholes to maximize xp for a lower level.



Anyhow, I think this thread falls victim to the multiple definitions players have. One person is insisting it's cheating because they have a definition that matches mine, while another says get over it and stop whining because their definition is simple SKing and AFK earning. The sad reality is, if they truly understood each others definition, they might actually agree. Instead they shout at each other for multiple pages.

*shrugs*

At least that's how I'm reading things at this point...

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Haha, this thread is still going?

PLeveling is not against the rules. It's part of the game. It's a feature. It's recognized and allowed by the developers.


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Really? I didn't read about it in the manual. If it's a feature it should be made more efficient. I say remove the xp scaling for SKs and remove the level limit for earning xp in a group.

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You may not like it, but it's not your game. Now, you can go on for 8 more pages coming up with asinine excuses why you think it's "bad," but until you get job at Cryptic or a magic wand of mind control, your opinion is better kept to yourself.


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Whoops, there I go again. Thinking I'm on a discussion board. I must be terribly mistakened. My apologies for taking up your time with my opinions.

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You obviously aren't convincing anyone. Not surprising considering the weak attempts thus far.

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How many did you convince in this thread? Hmm, lets count...1 no, not 1, um 0. Yeah thats it. 0.

However we do agree with one thing. This thread has gone on for faaaaar too long...

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i have to wonder why it does indeed bother people. It sounds to me like "your being PLed and im not and thats not fair!" and "If im stuck at a certain lvl you should be to!" and "I dont have any friends who play this game who will power level me so you shouldnt be allowed".

Im so sick of hearing these cries! These are obviously people who think they are competing with other heroes. Why should anyone care what lvl someone they dont even know is? And who cares how they got there?! Its childish. Like children being mad because their friend got a bigger peice of cake at the birthday party. Wahh! Wahh!

Power lvling is common with online rpgs/gaming. All the biggest games have PLing methods. As for powerlvling services i really dont have a problem with that either.

EXAMPLE:

Why go get a hair cut when you can cut your own damn hair? Do you realize the profits some of these hair dressers make? Damn hair dressers! They know all the hair cutting exploits! Meanwhile people just sit there in the chair and read magazines while there hair style gets better and better! And to think people pay to have this done! They should be banned from cutting hair! And it should be against the TOS of the scissor manufacturers! Ban them from using scissors. Why cant people cut their own hair? I cant afford to get my hair cut nor would i pay so nobody should be allowed!

People pay to have things done for them. Its just the way it is. Some people dont want to wait to have a high lvled character. Just like some people dont want to cut their own hair. As long as its done as a service and people are paying their taxes there isnt too damn much anyone can do about it. Thats why you'll never see a stop put to it. But it takes the fun out of the game right? Wrong, and shame on you for deciding for the rest of the world what is fun and what isnt! My nephew went to the hair dresser the other day and got almost all his hair shaved off right away. Maybe he should have waited till he was old and bald? Damn kid took all the fun out of having hair.

Poor analogy? Maybe so but how is it different? Because this is just a game? Exactly! So lighten up a little and deal with the fact that your not lvl 30 something in two days.

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You need to read the thread and not skim it. Most here, even on the Pro PL side are laying down very well thought out arguements.

No one here (or at least not many) are whining.

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Gravewalker, your post is the best post on this entire thread. Enough to stop this all, any more posting against THIS post of yours is just flaming from exlpointers. I'd give you 10 stars if i was able to!

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IAW COH Rules of Conduct:

You will not exploit any bug in City of Heroes and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug ( bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits ) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of City of Heroes . Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask A Question' at http://support.cityofheroes.com.

It is my opinion to gain experience without risk is unnatural and is therefore a bug in the game mechanics and should be duly reported. I will accept from many that while the devs have not deemed it an exploit yet (operative word here) it is something that Ill simply report and included in the report a viable solution that experience should not be gained beyond a set distance from a defeated villain.

IAW COH policies and support section of their website:

Heroes can earn experience points in two different ways. They are:

By defeating as many villains possible. The more difficult the villain, the more XP your hero will earn. Your hero can earn XP defeating villains solo or in teams with other heroes.

By completing the assigned mission. Not only will the hero earn XP from defeating the villains in the mission, upon the completion of a mission, the hero will also be awarded additional XP for completing the mission. Missions can be attempted solo or in teams. XP earned from completing missions will be adjusted based on the level of the hero and the villain as well as number of team members.

So in order to gain experience you must defeat villians either solo (or on a team) or complete mission.

This is not a passive activity since the definition according to websters of a team or team work is:

Team /teem/ n. Two or more persons working together.
Teamwork /teemwerk/ n. Combined action, cooperation.

Simply being on a team does merit the reward. You must be be bringing some form of action to be considered part of the team, otherwise you are taking advantage of a "bug" within the game that grants you an unnatural benefit.

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Agreed. Well said Gravewalker.

I would love to get a dev on here so we can see what they think. If my view is wrong I'm more than a big enough person to admit it. I have no fear of admitting I'm wrong.

At any rate, we've bounced this subject around far more than it's merits warrant. While I'm opposed to PLing, I'm not this oppossed to it. I have to check myself because it's getting to where I'm arguing for arguements sake.

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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.

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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.

You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.

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I think at this point you are trolling and have ceased to argue any case at all.

I did not say that most agree with my belief, I said they agree with my definition.

You are slowing becoming more and more rude. Please refrain from being negative for negatives sake.

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You can refer to one of my earlier posts if you like, however I'll do my best to repeat it now.

There is a loophole involving SKing and then the master joining a team while the SK is out of range. The SK gets much higher xp than is intended. I'm afraid I don't know the details. There are other such "loopholes".

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That isn't PL'ing, that is exploiting a loophole. Do refer to the title of the thread. I've got absolutely no problem with loophole exploiters having their loopholes closed (or for that matter being banned).

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A level 1 simply SKd to a level 40 is not power leveling. It's just laziness.


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Sorry, but that is using a special definition at odds with what most people understand power levelling to be. Heck, you don't even have to be outside the 8 level range. . .PL technically includes having a friend team you and you stand off somewhere else and do nothing to contribute to the earning of xps.

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I stated what I believed PLing to be from nearly the begining and have been defending the stance since.

I don't think my definition is too far from what many think. Granted there are some on both sides that are at odds with it. However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.

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The Dev team IS working to stop all exploits and power leveling cheats out there, the SK level range one being between them. The Devs obviously also think that is not right.

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Powerlevelling is as simple as sidekicking the target and having them follow at whatever range is allowed. There is no way to prevent such other than to mandate something like requiring every person to do a point of damage to get the xp reward, and that won't work given support ATs exist that validly aren't dealing a lick of damage.

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That is not power leveling. Is your whole arguement based on that belief? I hope not...

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Powerlevelling is doing no work to gain the reward. You care to offer another definition?

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You can refer to one of my earlier posts if you like, however I'll do my best to repeat it now.

There is a loophole involving SKing and then the master joining a team while the SK is out of range. The SK gets much higher xp than is intended. I'm afraid I don't know the details. There are other such "loopholes".

I personally define power leveling as anything outside of the +/- 8 level range that the game allows (besides standard SKing). A level 1 being driven to 40 by skirting the rules is power leveling. A level 1 simply SKd to a level 40 is not power leveling. It's just laziness.

This is why I refer to PLers as exploiters/cheaters. Because by my definition they are using loopholes and workarounds to gain an unfair advantage.

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How does the fact that one player is willing to work hard and give up XP for another player cheating? Sounds like friendship and team oriented to me. Have you thought of the fact that the guy out fighting for the XP and inf pays for the game too? Have you thought about the fact that many of us enjoy the game in different ways and thats the reason CoH is so much fun?

Oh wait.... from your posts you obviously don't think about much except trying to force others to do things your way.. seeems rather... "5th"... to me. I happen to be one of the players that runs about working his butt off to help his lower lvl SG members get alts to our current SG lvl for TF's and such. And believe me... no one is getting something for free, it actually costs me a lot of time to gain XP for a group of 3 by myself.. although, the witty commentary from my safely hidden mates does make the time go more enjoyably.

It's too bad there are so many narrow minded and simple people posting on the CoH boards trying to represent the rest of us... IMHO thats the most diminishing aspect of the community.

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I know you didn't just under handedly refer to anti PLers as Nazi's, did you? That's a bit more harsh than is called for.

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The Dev team IS working to stop all exploits and power leveling cheats out there, the SK level range one being between them. The Devs obviously also think that is not right.

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Powerlevelling is as simple as sidekicking the target and having them follow at whatever range is allowed. There is no way to prevent such other than to mandate something like requiring every person to do a point of damage to get the xp reward, and that won't work given support ATs exist that validly aren't dealing a lick of damage.

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That is not power leveling. Is your whole arguement based on that belief? I hope not...

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Actually, let's not get rid of the link. The purpose of any message board is to discuss the issues at hand. In some cases, some of us will attempt to convince others that our opinions have some validity. If we fall into *known* fallacies, we are miscommunicating, either purposely or in ignorance, and basically wasting each others' time (except for comedic effect or fanboi/troll conversations.)

One of the reasons that discourse on the 'Net and in other media has become so shrill is that folks cannot distinguish between valid arguments and logical fallacies.

5 stars to the person who posted the link for helping to educate.

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I would rather have a message board alive in variety, and color of posts, than a sterile board where everyone follows those rules (not rules period, just those referred rules). Even if it means putting up with idiotic statements, exclamations, or whatever else. I accept and embrace imperfection.

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A fallacy is a fallacy. Period. You're basically saying, "I'd rather people speak nonsensically and not be challenged for doing so."

Btw, the link doesn't list rules for argument, it lists logical flaws in argument techniques.

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I accept and embrace imperfection.

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That says so much.

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You say that as though I were supoosed to be insulted.

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Actually, let's not get rid of the link. The purpose of any message board is to discuss the issues at hand. In some cases, some of us will attempt to convince others that our opinions have some validity. If we fall into *known* fallacies, we are miscommunicating, either purposely or in ignorance, and basically wasting each others' time (except for comedic effect or fanboi/troll conversations.)

One of the reasons that discourse on the 'Net and in other media has become so shrill is that folks cannot distinguish between valid arguments and logical fallacies.

5 stars to the person who posted the link for helping to educate.

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I would rather have a message board alive in variety, and color of posts, than a sterile board where everyone follows those rules (not rules period, just those referred rules). Even if it means putting up with idiotic statements, exclamations, or whatever else. I accept and embrace imperfection.

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Well then let me engage in a bit of self determining. . .

You're a whiner that is envious and I've determined it for myself as my belief. I'm going to state my belief, regardless of the facts of the matter in the same fashion you are (and indeed taking you as my lead), loudly in demands that others take it to be their own belief too and hence ignore you.


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I don't fish.
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Well then if any technique is valid. . .SHE'S GOT COOTIES AND IS A NERD!!!!

Hopefully the ridiculousness of the two positions is obvious.


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Any arguement is valid as long as it meets the Code of Conduct that Cryptic has established. So if that's what floats your boat. Then by all means, proceed.

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Your caring and attempting to distinguish it as something bad are indicative of envy.

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Envy
1) A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

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Discontent? Check.

Resentment? Check.

Desire for possessions or qualities of other? Hmmm. . .wants to play the game to get ahead but doesn't like that others get ahead doing so in a different manner that she qualifies as "easy". Check.

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buzz, wrong. I play to have fun, not to level. Take your self reflective opinions of envy elsewhere. Period. End of discussion.

You are defending cheaters/exploiters, and you are accusing us of a sin? You should be in politics.

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Who are you to determine what is legitimate? I believe that falls to the developers to determine.


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When it comes to my own beliefs, I am the ONLY person who determines it.

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No, people will recognize that your argument is poor and ignore it.


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I read some of that link you sent. If being ignored is the price I pay, then so be it. At least my arguement will be my own. Honestly, if I were in a debate club, or in a court room, I would pay much more careful attention to advice on arguing. However, on a message board about a video game? Come on. Get real!

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Since i was one of the people in reference to "cheating" last night because i was PLing with a bunch of friends in brickstown i thought i would post on this. What our good friend and "saint" of player TheAdlerian doesnt tell you is that he also begged to be PLed while we were doing it, so the act that he now hates and talks down on, is exactly what he was begging for last night. What it boils down to is, if you have the ability to do it, by all means do it, for whatever reason you want. We have alot of friends that play and we work together to keep everyone at same levels. We have the machines and accounts, we paid for them, we have the right to play the game in our own way. We have all leveled characters up to high levels the "legit" way that you speak of, we dont want to grind through 30 levels of the near same stuff, so we PL past that and enjoy the higher levels with fresh classes. Im sorry that you cannot do that, or if you can you feel bad for asking.

If you are high level now (which i dont think mid 30s is bad at all) and you are complaining about PLing, thats sad. Now if you start a new character and complain, well.. enjoy the low levels, cause we dont wanna grind them again.

As for fixing PLing, well whatever is done isnt going to stop us, nor will it anyone that knows how to play this great game. Make us move around? ok thats fine, make me follow the SK guy, sure, no problem. You are under the assumption that we are just rooted at the trainer and not at the pc, when at most times someone is always there at the pc moving around and chatting (and sometimes telling beggers to move along, this isnt a gravy train)

To finish, TheAdlerian im sorry you cant PL yourself. Im sorry that you dont have the ability. Pay the cost per month and play the game to what makes you happy, you get out what you put in. Crying on the boards isnt going to make someone care more.

p.s. Please quit begging for PLing, its not "proper" =P

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Wow. So this is the kinda guy the pro-PL'ers are defending. I am speechless. An anti PL point made by a PL'er. I love it.

*sigh*

This is almost more frustrating than its worth.

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Your caring and attempting to distinguish it as something bad are indicative of envy. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting about it.


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Lets get something straight. I am not posting about people who get to 40 legitimately. In my previous post I said "I could care less if someone plays hardcore and gets to 40 in a few days. I DO care if they use what I consider a cheat/exploit to do so". I'm not posting about people getting there using non-exploitive means. I'm posting about people getting there using what I consider an exploit. Try to understand that....

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Here, let me help you out. As to not engaging in fallacious argument approaches, that has a place in any argument otherwise you're just wasting time.


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While I appreciate the thought, there are no arguement police who will come and take me away for making what you believe is a poor arguement. If I am wasting your time then move on. If I am wasting my own time, then that is my business.

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There is no envy involved in my opposition to PLing, so you can try and come up with a new theory. I oppose it just because it is wrong. Envy has nothing to do with it.

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Its not a theory, its an observation. Why are you upset? Because you didn't do it that way for whatever reason and you don't like that they got something you didn't. That is envy.

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Players are taking unintended short cuts, taking advantage of bugs, or outright exploiting/cheating. Anyone who thinks the later is wrong is wrong.

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That is known as argument by assertion and generally considered an invalid argument technique.

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Let me put it this way...I could care less if someone plays hardcore and gets to 40 in a few days. I DO care if they use what I consider a cheat/exploit to do so. So wrong again on the envy theory...

As for arguement techniques...I wasn't aware there were any, and I find the idea of it to be silly. They may have a place in a formal debate but not here.

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Being ethically oppossed to cheating is not a from of jealousy. After working hard I do not like to see people stealing the same thing that I earned. The characters in the game define each other.

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The reward from earning your levels the the feeling of accomplishment. But if you're going to go after people for powerlevelling, then the person who levelled with equal level team members and never sidekicked gets to point and you for not having done it his more difficult way, and the person who soloed exclusively gets to point at you both for not having done it his way.

What you're engaging in is a form of envy--one of the seven deadly sins. Drop it.

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There is no envy involved in my opposition to PLing, so you can try and come up with a new theory. I oppose it just because it is wrong. Envy has nothing to do with it.

Players are taking unintended short cuts, taking advantage of bugs, or outright exploiting/cheating. Anyone who thinks the later is wrong is wrong.

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Obvious exploit?
There is one loophole that has been addressed in Issue 2 (Sidekicks have to be in the same group) but aside from that, grouping with someone at max XP level range -1 and then sidekicking someone is not an exploit.

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Lol, clearly it must be a feature then! If this was intended by design, then why have a level difference for earning xp in a group? Also, why does a SK NOT earn the same xp as the master? Please, tell us why the developers went out of their way to write code that does these 2 things.

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Frankly, I have a variety of friends in their 40s that could Pl me. I was going to to ask but when I thought about it and saw people leveling at the train station it made me angry. It is a cheat. I like to be an ethical person that is proud of what he does. That's it.

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That's your loss.

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Also the jealously thing is getting boring. Why would anyone be jealous of unethical cheaters. That's like being jealous of a rapist for getting a lot of sex. How was that for an extreme real-world analogy?

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Keyword in your thing is "unethical." Anyone in the real world who hates unethical abusers usually has some sort of envy and jealousy involved. They feel that the guy is exploiting something to his advantage and it's not fair, at the same time they are frustrated and dont want to do it even though they think it may be a good idea. On the same token, they are also envious that person has the guts to do it. I've sure felt this way before... are you saying you havent?

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Wow, major generalization in the last paragraph. Don't include me in that "unethical equals envy" boat. While technically legal, leaking the name of a victim in a **** case is unethical. Yet I have no envy for the leakers. Cheating on a spouse is legal, but not ethical. Yet I don't envy the cheater...

I think you need to rethink that one...

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it doesnt negatively impact your ability to play your character in the slighest.

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That's all there is to say on the subject. Besides jealousy, there's really no reason for you to care.

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I love this philosophy! We should apply it to real life too. Someone just robbed a convenience store? Who cares? Doesn't affect me. Someone is lying about disability just to collect $$. Who cares? Doesn't affect me. He's right, people are just jealous that the criminal who held up the store got lots of money.

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I believe this is a really bad analogy. I would think that watching a movie in a theater and someone else starts talking would be a better one... Entertainment that requires cost and someone making the entertainment less entertaining versus breaking laws.

But this still doesn't really fit well because you can ignore the person in game and go somewhere else. Or you can drive yourself nuts trying to comprehend how many people are doing this when you are not playing or on servers you don't play on...

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I know, I know...I should just give up. It's just not in me to do so though....Please read my post that immediatly preceeds this one for my answer to this.

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or were you going to attack the way I said it instead of what I said. I said it before, and I'll say it again, people on these boards need to seriously brush up on their interpetitive skills

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Perhaps you need to brush up on your communications skills.
When drawing an analogy you're best served to use two examples that have an easily recognizable connection or similarity.


Comparing a crime, punishable by law, to someone powerleveling in a video game is outrageous.
There is no apparent correlation between the two.

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Oh boy, you quoted my statement about interpetitive skills then proceeded to further validate it. I WAS NOT COMPARING THE ACTUAL ACTS THEMSELVES. I am not insane, crazy, nor an idiot! I know there is a difference between violating the law, and PLing in a video game! Apparently I have to spell it out:

I provided an example of acts that do not affect me (the crimes)

Versus

An act which does not affect me (PLing)

How did you miss the correlation?