Johnny_Butane

Recluse's Channelgun.


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You left out: -Teammates who have no concept of time and suddenly realize they have a RL obligation 20 minutes into the TF.

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That depends if the teammate knew well ahead of time something was coming.

Most people understand that most TFs can take around two hours at best. Joining one when you're 45 minutes from dinner is definately a valid indicator of stormy seas ahead.

But I can excuse someone for answering an unexpected phone call from Grandma who's 97 in August and wont be around much longer or going AFK to extinguish their toddler.

Generally, if said teammate knows to warn people up front "Hey guys, in a half hour I'm going to go eat/take an important business call/run obnoxious errand" then he had no business joining the TF in the first place, IMO.



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So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.

[/ QUOTE ] That sounds reasonable, but how could they do it without making Brutes and/or Scrappers irrelevant?

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Unique mehanics.

Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers are all melee damage dealers, yet they all play differently enough to make each attractive and distinct offensively.

One suggestion I floated for Tankers was a (old version) Domination-style periodic damage buff inherent power.

Another suggestion was stacking -resistance and/or -regen debuffs on Tanker single target attacks. Like Brutes, they would see their damage to a tough target increase over time. But unlike Brutes, minions, LTs and other soft stuff wouldn't see as great of an effect since the effect wouldn't get to stack on them as much.

One suggestion I mulled over, but never formally proposed, was an inherent power for Tankers similar to Hunter's Mark in WoW. A Tanker could pick out a single target, mark it and then be dealing much much more damage to just that target until it is defeated. Other players and other Tankers would still deal the same damage to that target, however. The power would be on a long enough recharge so that you couldn't use it every spawn (maybe every second spawn at most), but it would be available for EB/AV/GM battles.



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Then why is it that people who are quite knowledgable about this game, and who have been on teams with uber buffs and what not, still want me to bring my stone tank.

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The the same reason people take the elevator to the third floor even though the stairs would be better for them. Because it's easier.

Tankers allow other players to slack bacause they shoulder the burden, and many, like the Stoner, can do it alone. Which is nice when you're smoothing things out for a less than optimal team, but bad when you're just being a crutch for poor players.

But unlike an elevator, Tankers aren't unfeeling machines built to ferry people where they want to go(to lvl 50). Most people want to enjoy themselves, because this is a game after all.

Now, we've got a wide range of people who've posted here who've stated they find Tankers boring and not enjoyable, in a large part I suspect because of their offense.

These same people, from what I can tell, DID NOT say they HATED to tank for teams. In fact, Brutes can do a very good job at tanking with their auras and mini-Gauntlet and desire to keep their Fury up.

And I would say the majority of players don't have a hate or a love of aggro management. I'd guess the majority see it as just something that happens, and value it on a team if it's coming from a Tanker OR a Brute.

I would say however, that damage and offense is something most players enjoy to have.

So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.



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NTFSS: New Taskforce Stupidity Stress Syndrome.

As with the STF, the LGTF and the ITG, the two new TFs in i15 can be a breeding ground for NTFSSS.

I've put together some literature for whose who may be affected by NTFSSS.

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Q: When can NTFSSS happen?
A: NTFSSS occurs when, eager to experience a new TF, you team with whatever PuG drecks are standing around the contact.


Q: What are the general and specific causes of NTFSSS?
A: The general cause is being teamed with lower quality players in an unfamiliar Taskforce. Specific causes can be:

-Teammates who don't yet realize their build isn't up to snuff for the demands of a TF.
-Teammates who don't play their characters well.
-Teammates who are unable to recognize patterns and devise strategy.
-Teammates who just wont listen.
-Teammates lacking common sense.
-Teammates of a lower level being sidekicked up.


Q: How can I tell if I'm likely to contract NTFSSS from my team?
A: There are signs you can spot early on to prevent NTFSSS from taking root.
Signs such as your teammates saying things like:

"I haven't played this character in a looong time. LOL!"
"This is a concept toon..."
"Where am I?"
*heard in the middle of combat* "How should I slot [insert power here]?"


Q: What are the dangers of NTFSSS?
A: The dangers of NTFSSS are:

-Team wipes.
-Inability to finish a TF including inability to defeat the AV.
-Increased levels of rage.
-Risk of damage to computer hardware.
-Increased desire to solo in an issue with no new solo content.


Q: How can NTFSSS be treated?
A: The short term cure is to leave the team, either suddely or with a polite excuse depending on your personality.

The long term solution is time.
In time, many of these people will lose interest in this TF and go back to content that's more their speed. Others will learn the tactics needed to complete the TF and become worthwhile teammates. In time, you will have more opertunities to team with more competant people and people that you know and are likely your friends, making the experience much better even if it still runs a little bumpy.


***

The important thing to remember is that with modern IOs, NTFSSS is treatable and you have a very good outlook for full recovery.




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You, knock it off.

Tankers are doubleplusfine.



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Best brace yourself for an assault of un-logic.



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Brute = Tank defensively.


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Potentially.

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Brute does not have Gauntlet.

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Depends how you define Gauntlet.

Brute attacks taunt enemies they hit, just like Tankers. They can be slotted with Taunt IO sets and taunt enhancers, just like Tankers.

The only difference is, on a Tanker the taunt effect is radial, affecting an area proportional to the size of the attack. On a Brute the radius is set to always be zero, rendering the effect single target, except when the attack is AoE, like Foot Stomp.

The devs define the radial effect as Gauntlet, but since Brutes do the same thing only less potent, some people tend to say that Brutes have "Gauntlet-lite".


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Tanks and Brutes have the same cap on overall defense/resistance after buffs, don't they?

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Except for HP, correct.


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Because Brutes benefit so greatly from being a much more modernly designed CoV AT they just pretty much make tanks look like dipsticks. Is there any encounter in the game you can't easily team buff a brute to tank sufficiently? If not then might as well bring the guy that can get up to %850 damage buff too!

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This entire thread is making me laugh until my sides ache, but stuff like this takes the cake.

Clearly you're insane and we should all ingore these blatant anti-Tanker rantings.




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Brute all the way. Every time I try to pick back up a tank I get bored and switch to a brute.

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Hmm.

I ask must ask, would improving the Tanker's aggro handling abilities or giving them increased mez effects make them more interesting and less boring to you?

And if not, what would?

I extend that same question to everyone else so far who's answered Brute.



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[QR]

What are you guys talking about?

Tanker all the way.

Brutes can't tank at all and Tanker damage is freaking amazing.

Just ask anyone on the Tanker forum, they'll tell you the same.



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I'm glad you're thinking outside of the box now JB.

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Tankers are doubleplusgood.



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[QR]

What are you guys talking about?

Tanker all the way.

Brutes can't tank at all and Tanker damage is freaking amazing.

Just ask anyone on the Tanker forum, they'll tell you the same.



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There are water based powers in the game, its called Ice.

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And we had no less than four power sets with guns and now we're getting Dual Pistols.

Don't even bring up swords.


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[quote
@abnormal_joe

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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself

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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.


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karma is a b###h ain't it.

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Chicken meet egg.


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and he gives you encouragement as well as critical feedback IMHO and you spit at him for his efforts.

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That's not spitting on him by any means.

I found his "encouragement" patronizing and dripping with derision.

I've always understood I was fighting an uphill battle with little or no support. If Ace truly wanted to offer support, I can think of better ways.

But my response was far from attacking him.

I have no doubt War Mace owes what it is currently to a large part of Ace's efforts.
But that is quite a bit different than the devs taking a 45 degree turn to the design of an AT to help fix an issue they likely don't understand. I mean, we're talking about a guy who proposed a powerset based on the Juggernaut's abilities (a character often specifically stated to almost never tire) should be hard on endurance. Not being a geek with an encyclopedic knowledge of comics is one thing, but if I was designing a game about race cars, I'd damn well do some research and make sure my adaptation wasn't almost the direct opposite of what many people would expect from a feature or mechanic.

I honestly think some of the devs would be better off making a game with subject matter they understand enough to adapt to a game, rather than forcing conventions and concepts into a genre they don't really belong and dismissing those that do.

And I'm going to call shenanigans on a lead dev who claims to read Invincible and only offers medium damage decoys or rampaging savages leashed to a Fury bar.


Ace, if you truly had no malice in what you said, I'm sorry if I offended.


@abnormal_joe

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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself

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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.


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Castle is unlikely to respond to you

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Castle is unlikely to respond to anyone.

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but if you feel the need, start your own thread with various suggestions

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Been there, done that. The last general discussion thread on the issue that I launched was the one where Castle dragged it OT and got half of it nuked.

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It took a couple years but mace got a great buff

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It did?

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You'd have to learn to talk with us rather then at us

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You'd have to listen and share my general opinion instead of pushing for the exact opposite. I've got little interest in shoving Tankers further into a niche as aggro monkeys, which is where I see 85% of suggestions coming from by the people who who crap on my efforts.


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Because everything goes better with Frankenstein.

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The monster or the doctor?

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Both.

Depending on who you read, the monster became a doctor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Frankenstein

But if you're talking the classic story, Victor Frankenstein, the guy who made the creature, was no doctor. He wasn't even a medical student, IIRC. He was just some guy with a lot of time on his hands who liked to sit in on lectures about dead bodies.



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Apply an additional inherent ability into Gauntlet such as those suggested in this thread or others like it. These ideas in no particular order include resistance debuff, regeneration debuff, Mez stacking., extra damage V. Bosses and higher.

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I have personally argued in favour of three of those four items numerous times.

Damage vs bosses and higher only got brought up recently because someone said they saw me suggest it a couple of times.

Tankers getting Defender/Controller level Leadership buffs? Again, something that came recently from a suggestion I made. Was I the fist to suggest it? Unlikely. But you're talking about it because someone saw me suggest it not to long ago in one of those threads of mine you guys say are so much garbage and brought it up again as a good idea for helping to address Tanker issues.

So you are in favour of many of the things I'm calling for, while attacking me for what I call for. You really don't know much of what I've actually suggested beyond "Johnny wants more damage," do you?


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These discussions drag on because.....

"I don't really care what you think "-Johnny_Butane

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Yeah, you're right. I really don't care about how someone crafts a ridiculous definition of "being a heavy hitter" to justify calling Tankers that as they are now.

Or the nonsense people use to validate the disparities that exist and defend the team's heroic heavy hitter/big gun being shafted conceptually with a role primarlily as a decoy/rodeo clown with piddling vanilla damage.

@Alabaster12:

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The resolution to your problem is to play another class that is effectively the same but plays the way you want this class to play.

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No class exists to be the heroic heavy hitter.

We've got the scrappy little mutants with knives coming out of his hands.

We've got the stealthy dark knights who strike hidden from the shadows.

We've got the brutish gamma irradiated monsters who are ruled by anger.

And we've got medium damage decoys who don't do justice to any hero with super strength and don't fill the role as the team big guy.

Tankers should be that class. The lead designer of the game even said that they should be and confirmed they were intended to be the kind of heavy hitting hero in question. I suspect the majority of people wouldn't call Tankers heavy hitters as they are now by any means. So, why isn't that something that should be looked at? Because some people other than me settled for less?

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I really don't understand how this argument can now keep going and going and going and going.

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Because the devs don't do anything to resolve it.
Brutes aren't a solution to Tanker concept/design issues.


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With the distortion shader effects the game now supports and some time to work in the particle effects, you could do a much better looking water power set these days.

Think The Abyss meets Waterbending meets Frankenstein.

Because everything goes better with Frankenstein.



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See my earlier posts about what a heavy hitter really means.

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I don't really care what you think being a heavy hitter means.

Consistantly hitting weaker than all the other melee ATs by 40% isn't being a heavy hitter.



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I like protecting my teammates(aka being a decoy, or rodeo clown), and smashing enemies, and Tanks are the best at the former, and one of the best at the latter.


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How can they be "one of the best" at the latter when they are the lowest damage melee AT in the game, and now there are two ranged ATs with melee attacks that hit harder than the same ones on that Tanker?

Of all the melee ATs, the are the worst offensively by far, and out of all ATs that get melee attacks in their primary and secondary, they are favouring the lower end. You can't be in sixth place out of 10 and be "one of the best."

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I wouldn't mind a slight increase in damage, and I would love to see a decrease in endurance cost of Tanker attacks


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Then stop torpedoing the efforts of people trying to bring that about.

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but any suggestion that makes Tanks more "gimmiky", or more/less powerful depending on some timed mechanic

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And as I pointed out numerous times, if implemented as I proposed, my suggestion for a Domination-esque damage boost wouldn't impact a player one bit if they chose not to take advantage of it. You could drag the icon off your tray and ignore it forever and ever and play your Tanker exactly as you do now with no loss.

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I'm not against some proposed Tanker changes because I want to protect some vague status quo

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Your actions and words demonstrate otherwise.



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See. I'm still not sure why you believe that you, above everyone else, should be "listened to"


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I believe everyone should be listened to.
And I think you should heed comments coming out of left field when a number of people concede in many cases that they're valid points.


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Before you go "I'm being a tank" on this idea, please stop and think. The general community has rebutted


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The general population prefers ham sandwiches to steak, therefore they are better than steak?

And by the "general population" do you mean the half dozen or so people who show up to troll any post I make? I assure you they're not the general population.

The general population of this game really doesn't care to argue either side. They, from my observation, are quite open to mild tweaks and additions to Tankers. The rabbid resistance to change you see here isn't so much a reflection of the community as it is a reflection of people who like to crap on any idea proposed.

The same people foaming in opposition to me, foamed and screamed at people proposing changed that were later adopted by the game. No less than half of the people screaming my proposals would ruin the game are the same people who screamed unlimmited respecs would ruin the game. Or that Flashback would ruin the game.

They like to moan about anyone suggesting change and they never propose anything themselves, because that would be exposing themselves to the same BS they like to fling.


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