Icarus_Factor

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to them, by making mobs harder, it will also make playing a Blaster VERY difficult. As it stands, a Rikti Chief Soldier can almost 1 shot a Blaster as it is. By making them any stronger, it will become VERY frustrating to play a blaster, let alone a defender.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?! You mean it will be hard for a Blaster to solo because they have low HP and defense?!

Wait... sounds to me like that's closer to how Blasters were supposed to work in the first place. Glad to see they're on the right track.

[ QUOTE ]
How short your memory is...

You do not seem to remember how Mr. 152 hours came out
of the closet and how there were immediate nerfs to compensate
for his power levelling. (not referring to the exploit fixes)

Don't remember the purple patch either ??

Or how Equinox beat down blobbidon and there was a sudden
gang of nerfs related to that.

Maybe these will refresh your memory:

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, hey, thanks for proving my point Vegetator.

The developers base decisions on what happens in game, not what gets whined about on the forums.

[ QUOTE ]
Touche'

You are absolutely right, there is no indication (other than timing)
that they used anything from the forums to base their decisions
on.

But, there was some suspicious timing involved...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the players got the information at the same time as the developers. So while the developers were evaluating the situation and deciding what to do, the players were kicking and screaming on the forums.

Same logic applies to the SG fix. It dawned on the players as it dawned on the developers. So while one was considering if a fix was in order, the other was complaining. Doesn't mean one caused the other.

[ QUOTE ]
I never called for a nerf to anything on anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said you did.

[ QUOTE ]
I simply was amused at how people who called for a nerf on what wasn't the most overpowered thing in the game (but still needed a fix), suddenly found themselves nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Included in this statement is the assumption that somehow a particular group of players were calling for the nerf any moreso than any other group. Just more baseless paranoia to add to the heap of this imaginary nerf conflict.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think the message board nerf wars & video clips dont contribute to what gets nerfed, you're kidding yourself. Even if it only brings a bug to the devs attention

[/ QUOTE ]

If the boards bring something to the developers attention, it is still fully in the power of the developers to determine whether or not a fix is actually in order, and if it's something that does indeed need fixing, then it would have come to their attention in one way or another eventually anyway. That's it. That's the extent of the forum involvement in the adjustment of powers. The only people "kidding" themselves are those who have concocted this vision of the developers scanning the forums and compiling what people are "complaining" about most, and then basing their decisions on what powers to adjust on these compiled numbers of whiney posts.

[ QUOTE ]
You think AoE's would be getting tweaked (even if indirectly) if it wasn't for general outcry?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. Absolutely. They have data on what powers are doing what kinds of damage. They know about herding. They don't need whiners on the forums to point out the disparity in usefullness between single target and AoE blasters. It's their game. Believe me, they're not using some SGs latest "uber build" video to determine how they're going to do their jobs.

[ QUOTE ]
When powers get nerfed, there will be new "best" powers and those will get screamed about and nerfed. It's a never ending cycle.

[/ QUOTE ]

...in your head. "Powers will get screamed about." <-- True, unavoidable. "and nerfed." <-- assumption, based on your misconception of the developers as mindless zombies, responding to the whining rants of 0.01% of their players.

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen it happen in multiple games, so please don't say it is imaginary tripe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have seen powers adjusted in multiple games? Wow, I'm so shocked. Because, you know, it happens in EVERY GAME. I'd wager "the forums" never played as major a role as people seem to want to believe.

[ QUOTE ]
will come around to everyones AT once they get rolling. It was kinda funny how fast that Illusion/Fire controllers who called for SG nerf got theirs, and it will come for Spines/Invul/Regen scrappers as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* So difficult to have a discussion with anyone whose perspective is so distorted.

The developers are working on their game. They are making adjustments. This entire "nerf war" of players "getting theirs" and "calling for others" and the developers in their Ivory Towers actually paying attention to the whole ordeal, listening to people's complaints and "nerfing" based on the rants of a few whiners on the message boards is a total fabrication. It's an invention of your paranoid mind. It's tripe. Hogwash. It doesn't exist. It's spam to fill these rants on the forums. It's FICTIONAL.

Power adjustments will happen. Sometimes it will be ones certain players have asked for. The events are mutually exclusive. The developers are not standing up there saying "You get yours, muahahaha. Now you get yours! Hahaha. Nerf them all! Dooooooooom!"

The developers want the game to be fun and challenging. They want it to be fair and balanced. This will involved adjustments to powers. That is an absolute inevitability. Accept it. Play and enjoy the game for what it is and what the developers will make it. Or don't. But, please, please, for the sake of us all and in the interests of ever having a rational discussion on these boards, let go of the "you called for nerfs and so the developers did it, then you got yours serves you right," etc. crap. It's really tiresome.

[ QUOTE ]
When making a game a developer will soon realize their vision of a game might not always be in line with the will of the players. A good developer will realize that it may be neccessary to sacrifice parts of that vision to keep the game in line with what the players have decided their vision of the game is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, and as soon as you design the machine that magically quantifies the "vision of the players" when you're talking about 180,000+ people all with their own, often differing, opinions, then let us know and we will set to work making the perfect MMO. In the meantime, how about we let the developers make the game they want to make, and if we like it we will pay them for it.

[ QUOTE ]
Trash the original poster and offer nothing worthwhile throughout the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worthwhile? What, you mean like complaining about "nerfs," and demanding the developers make their game to my liking instead of their own? Sorry I couldn't add my poop to the ever-growing pile of whiney smacktards who complain because some of the orange numbers on their screen got smaller, or because the game might actually be challenging now. In the future I will try to keep my posts "worthwhile" and stick to ridiculous demands, unreasonable complaints, and "this game is going to fail" asinine doomsday prophecies. Would that keep you happy?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you will play no matter what is done to your hero's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will play as long as the game is fun. My fun is not based on the size of the orange numbers that pop up from my enemies' heads, or on a few percentages that might be tweaked up or down.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you fail to realize Icarus that there is a lot of competition in the MMORPG market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and in the light of that CoH has garnered approaching 200k subscribers in their first quarter of release. That means they have at least a passing idea what they're doing.

So, what? Now you want me to place my trust in the players to start calling the shots? Haha. Read the forums for 15 minutes. Now imagine all the threads and posts and flames as people sitting in a board room discussing possible changes to the game. REALLY picture that. Then picture where the game would be 2 years from now. I'm picturing it now, and it looks like a toilet.

[ QUOTE ]
When an original vision of how a game should be played does not get realized, those developers who try and force the game into that direction lose players.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do? Seems like a totally arbitrary statement to me. Can you back this up with anything but personal opinion? I've played plenty of games that were "forced" in directions and improved greatly as a result. I could just as easily make the statement "When an original vision of how a game should be palyed does not get realized, a game does not get as many players. Those developers who try and force the game into that direction regain some of those lost players and have a chance to stay in business."

The truth is, developers who know how to make a good game keep and gain players. Those who don't lose players. It has nothing to do with whether or not they "bend to the will of the players," because as I stated, 180,000 have no single will to which to bend.

In the end, what all you whiners want is your own MMOG. Well, get off your [censored], go to school or hit the lab, when you have an engine and a demo, start hitting the publishers; when you get some capital, hire some developers and get to work. Then you can make the game you're demanding that Cryptic make "for you."

If you're unwilling or incapable of doing this, realize that you will play the game Cryptic wants you to play (or you won't), but you're sure as [censored] not going to take the wheel from them with doomsday prophecies and repetitive complaints about "nerfs."

[ QUOTE ]
SMART developers makes games to make money. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yah. That's a great way to encourage creativity and new ideas. Lets take your advice and make 4,000 EverQuests. It "ain't broke," after all.

[ QUOTE ]
CoH's success says it's not broken... Gets more broken with each volley of nerfs that force us down 'the vision's' approach, though...

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. Okay, I suppose if by "more broken" you mean "continually attracting new customers and critical acclaim," then I guess you have a point.

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen a number of games wane due to forced visions.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you haven't. You have seen a number of games wane that probably would have waned regardless, and then applied your own silly assumptions about the "reasons" behind the waning. Provide anything remotely resembling concrete evidence that "nerfs" have ever directly contributed to the downfall of a game, beyond "This game had nerfs and it failed," and I'll concede the argument on the spot.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that game would be as much FUN as the one I got at release.

It might be better to set ego aside, look at how your players WANT to play the game (not at how YOU want them to play it), and build content/design around that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, my laughter died down so I could read on, and then started back up right here!

So, YOU don't think that game would be as much fun as the one YOU got at release, and Statesman should change the way he's doing things because of this?

And then you have the nerve to say "set ego aside." Hahaha. Take your own [censored] advice dude. Plenty of players are perfectly happy to conform to the developers vision and intentions for the game. If we didn't trust them to know how to make a good game, we wouldn't be paying the $15 a month to play it.

What makes you think what YOU want is magically what the "players" want? Every player wants something slightly different. That's why it's imperative that the developers maintain their OWN vision and intent. Otherwise it will end up a soupy mess of "trying to please everyone."

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen a lot of posts from you about how you want us to play the game.

You really, really, want to think carefully about forcing the players to your vision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped here in hilarious laughter.

Developers make games in order to realize their vision in the form of a game. That's why they do it. That's the whole [censored] point to the job. If you don't like their vision, then don't play their game.

What's the alternative? Your vision?

Haha.

[ QUOTE ]
It never was. Chicks like me have been playing and gaming for years now. I have been since Pong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I think he only meant to refer to the recent surge in female gamers. I don't think anyone's claiming that no girls played video games prior to 1998, but generally speaking, prior to that (give or take, obviously) the breakdown of the population (at least with respect to regular/hobbyist gamers) was extremely uneven gender-wise. It's definitely balancing out now, or at least the scales aren't tipped so far in one direction.

I for one am excited to see what happens a few years from now when the recent flood of female gamers begins to translate into more and more female game developers. I expect a "female revolution" in game design, complete with plenty of fresh ideas and perspectives. It might be just what the industry needs to break out of some of the "ruts" it has gotten itself into in recent years.

Incidentally I think you would be (pleasantly?) surprised to find how many CoH players are actually women. The number of female gamers in recent years has absolutely skyrocketed. Any actual numbers slip my mind at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are approaching or above a quarter of the population.

[ QUOTE ]
Yet half the characters in this game are female. Scary really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Developer != Player.

They are a rare breed. Less than 10% of video game developers are women.

The article is a good read.

[ QUOTE ]
The 3 basic arguments seem to be..

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be confused between arguing that PLing is a "good thing," and arguing that it's not cheating. Two different arguments. One is a amtter of opinion. The other fact. So, reason #5, since you had 4 is: The developers have clearly stated it's not a cheat or an exploit.

[qoute[justify behavior that is not desirable in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not desirable to whom? You? Who died and made you Statesman?

[ QUOTE ]
It's been backed up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys say it doesn't affect everyone then when someone proves it

[/ QUOTE ]

Proof? Point it out.

[ QUOTE ]
you then backtrack by saying "it doesn't affect you much."

[/ QUOTE ]

I never backtracked. It doesn't affect you at all. Period.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want a game where an exploit doesn't affect you play GTA 3. Then that would be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read Statesman's post. We're talking about PLing, not an exploit.-

[ QUOTE ]
If you want evidence read back through the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read the thread several times. If they changed the definition of "evidence" to "emotional, baseless, opinions," then I definitely wasn't informed.

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion:

Powerleveling is an exploit in the game. Exploits is cheating. Cheating should not be allowed.

And thats that. It doesnt matter if it effects me or not. Stop with that individual mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first two words in your post were the only important ones.

What is an exploit and what is a cheat is not a matter of personal opinion; it's a matter of rules laid out by the creators of the game. The creators of this game have decided that this is not against the rules. It is not necessarily what they want people to spend their time doing, but that doesn't make it a cheat, an exploit or unethical.

"In my opinion," being 7'9" tall and weighing 425 lbs. is an exploit in basketball, but until the NBA decides to make it against the rules my opinion means Shaq squat.

Have your opinion. Love it. Snuggle up with it in bed at night and talk to it about how your day went, but when it comes to jumping on here and shout "cheaters!" and "exploiters!" and "viscious immorality that effects us all!" then, please, spare us. Not everyone shares your opinion. In particular not the people who make the rules.

[ QUOTE ]
It effects CoH as a whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to back this up. I'm anxious to hear your reasoning, as you would be the first in this thread to provide any evidence that this is indeed the case.

[ QUOTE ]
This thing should have ended long ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean, like, when Statesman himself posted clearly saying it wasn't cheating or exploiting, and you continued on with your fingers in your ears as if he had never uttered a word of it?

Yah, I think you're right.

[ QUOTE ]
So, you did not meet my dare, but attempted to trick and cheat your way out of it. This is behavior that we are all familiar with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. Shameless. No; I attempted to shed light on the futility and circular nature of your logic by showing you that you have gotten nowhere, failed to prove any of your initial claims, and essentially done nothing but state your opinion on PLing in page upon page of tripe.

You stated your opinion in the first sentence of your first post. Beyond that, you have accomplished nothing aside from dragging out a flamewar with your name-calling and baseless accusations.

[ QUOTE ]
The “what will you do” and “Geko...Statesman...whoever!!” thread heavily reflect that many people have read my thread, agree with it and are proud that they played the game fairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

People agree with you. Congratulations.

This thread reflects that plenty of people agree with me, too. There wouldn't be much point for a discussion if there weren't people on both sides of the argument, now would there?

The important thing is the developers have responded, clearly stating that PLing is neither cheating nor exploiting; one point you have continually and conveniently refused to admit or address.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you not smart enough to see that you have restated my intial point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you not smart enough to see that by restating your initial point I was trying to point out how cyclic and pointless your entire argument has been?

Oh, and please feel perfectly free to ignore the bulk of my post. You know, where I refer to your continued voluntarily ignorance of Statesman clearly stating that this was neither a cheat nor an exploit.

Pull the wool over you own eyes if you want man. Keep lying to yourself. Do it until you believe it. Just don't expect any of us to.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I dare anyone to tell me how a person can play a game while not being at the site of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take that dare. Have a high level friend SK you. Go sit on the top of a sky scraper while they sweep the streets for villians and you gain XP and have a sandwhich in another room.

[ QUOTE ]
People can be 40 miles away from their computer and still gain ex! That’s cheating in the sense that you are creating a fraudulent character.

[/ QUOTE ]

A "fraudalent character," eh? You're probably going to have to go ahead and define what the [censored] that's supposed to mean before you use it like it actually means something.

[ QUOTE ]
The designers have weighed in

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed they have, clearly stating that this is neither a cheat nor an exploit. A fact you have conveniently chosen to totally [censored] ignore in your continued, repetitive, beating of this already dead horse.

[ QUOTE ]
the rules imply that this behavior is an exploit

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're backwards intrepretation and twisting of the rules imply that this is an exploit.

The lead developer's words imply it's a perfectly legitimate tactic, albeit easier to do than was intended.


[ QUOTE ]
and steps are being taken to control this behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Key word is "control." If it was a cheat, it would be removed entirely from the game, and punished with suspension or deletion of accounts. Instead, as clearly stated by Statesman, he simply plans to make it difficult to do.

I mean, come on. Lets gather together a few of our brain cells here and consider Statesman's words. When was the last time you heard a developer refer to a CHEAT by saying, "We're going to make this a little harder to do, but if you still want to do it, BRAVO." Ever? No? Wow, I must say I'm surprised. Seems like they would say this about all kinds of cheats and exploits by your idiot logic.

Let it go, dude. The horse is dead, and so is your argument.

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, the question has been answered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly. Just seems like one side of the argument refuses to accept that the answer didn't quite agree with their original assertions, so instead of conceding that they were only partially right, they have decided to continue the argument as if the answer was never posted in plain English. Funny how these things work out.

[ QUOTE ]
To others, I knew that PLing is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you thought it was. Now that Statesman has clearly indicated otherwise, ("Bravo," to those who do it, I think were his words), you have closed your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears and started chanting "Nanny, nanny, boo, boo! I was right and you were wrong! I can't hear you! I was right!"

Really quite embarassing. Funny, granted, but definitely embarassing.

[ QUOTE ]
The cheaters are wriggling like a fish on the hook

[/ QUOTE ]

To everyone taking notes, ^^ this is what happens when people run out of real things to say on a subject.

[ QUOTE ]
The last I will say on this is Statesman already gave his stance on the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman made a statement, which you then interpreted quite liberally.

Nothing about what he said implies that PLing is exploiting or cheating. Only that he plans on making it more difficult as he believes it's "too easy" to do right now, and he wants to discourage it as much as possible.

You are the one continuing the argument by "reading into" his words much more than he actually said. If you want the argument to end, you have to concede that all the calls of "cheater" and "liars" and "exploiters," were premature and unecessary; it's obviously not against the rules.

[ QUOTE ]
I think States knows what he wants fromt his game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean he gets to say what people find "fun." That's a matter of opinion. Doesn't matter how much authority you have, you don't get to tell people what they enjoy.

[ QUOTE ]
That type of power leveling is against the rules as defined by Statesman.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed where he said it was against the rules. Can you quote him?

My interpretation of his stance is that it pretty much confirms what we have been saying all along. As the game stands right now, it's a perfectly legitimate tactic. Leave it up to the Developers to change the game so that this tactic becomes more difficult to pull off, but that doesn't make it "cheating," or "exploiting."

In fact, I think his exact statement was "If someone wants to do that, bravo."

Hmm, doesn't sound like something that's against the rules to me.

As for this:
[ QUOTE ]
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a matter of opinion. The opinion of someone in a position of authority, granted; but nonetheless an opinion. Certainly some people must find this fun, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the designers warn you against using bugs, so that implies that they desire fair leveling. So, the constant argument about PLing not affecting me is not in keeping with the designers wishes. They want equal game play for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is equal gameplay for all. Everyone has an equal opportunity to PL and be PLed.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love it if anyone would come up with solid reasons why powerleveling, more specifically AFK leveling, is a POSITIVE contributor to the game. In any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me try; there are players out there who want to do it. They enjoy doing it, and hence enjoy their time in the game. They have fun leaving their keyboard and coming back later to an extra level and a new power, or what have you. It's how they choose to participate in the game to a given degree. It's what they want to do.

Combined with the fact that it does not adversely affect anyone or anything else in the game, it sounds to me like that's reason enough.