ICF_Zombra

Hey, don't look at me. I've been calling my guys "guys" for weeks now.

[ QUOTE ]
For toon, I can maybe, possibly see where if you stretch it, it could seem childish, but I can't fathom where shallow comes in?

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'know, like, 2-dimensional? Flat? Literally without depth?

"Mob" for a single enemy, I like. I enjoy jargon sometimes. "Toon" just has such a shallow, childish ring to it.

[ QUOTE ]
I use 'guy' to refer to female characters all the time.

Leftover from the 'extra guy' era of gaming.

[/ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY. I just need to get over my politically correct guilt - other than that, it's a term with no drawbacks! Heck, it's even easier to type than 'toon'!

Update: I said upthread that I'd caught myself using 'toon' a few times just through linguistic osmosis. I'm proud to say that after reading this thread and realizing I liked the term 'guy' much better, I've made a few posts using 'guy' without thinking about it.

I guess the acid test will be whether I can get over the gender disconnect and use 'guy' to refer to a female character ...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meh, toon is fine, it all means the same. I'll use whatever word I feel like using. /shrug

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. There's so much flat-out snobbery in this thread I keep wondering when Thurston Howell is going to wander in.

[/ QUOTE ]One man's snobbery is another's rational justification.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Thurston is my homie. Anybody remember the "Jim Backus & Friend" track called Delicious? I love that guy.

If you want to bash on the rich and sophisticated, I recommend heading over to the Wal*Mart/Progressive Taxation/Health Care System Comparison/How to Make Money thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'm poking fun at his thread and others of the type. They're really quite pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]
Welllll, I like to think that they're not totally pointless. No, there's not much hope of one side or another "winning the debate" and establishing a universal standard. But it is interesting to find out what the arguments on both sides are ... if any. For example, I wouldn't have guessed a week ago that there are people who actually think of comic book superheroes as "cartoons". I don't agree with that, but it does give me some insight into where some of these people are coming from. I actually didn't know about the term's history from old old games, either - I thought its MMO genesis occurred in ToonTown. Hopefully a few of the "toon" advocates have likewise learned a little bit about why some people (like me) feel the term insults their intelligence.

Dammit, once again someone replies to me and pokes fun at a generic nameless poster who is arbitrary and ridiculous ... this time I'm going to assume that I'm not the actual target ... stupid Quick Reply ...

OBEY MY COSMIC LAW

[ QUOTE ]
I never said it "doesn't" affect others. I said it doesn't "devalue" in the normal everyday useage.

It is used all the time on these forums in a neutral, nonderogatory manner. If you think in everyday useage it devalues them then please have a word with the Devs who use the term.

[/ QUOTE ]
A term doesn't have to be used with intentional malice for it to devalue its subject. "Toon" carries an implication of shallowness for many. You know, becasue cartoons are two-dimensional etc. (And however 'cartoony' Co*'s visual style may be, it's interesting to note that the art is actually 3D, while cartoons are traditionally 2D.) A character has depth and is richly detailed. A cartoon is a shallow caricature. However much you protest, this IS the interpretation that many people (some but not all) attach to this word - yes, in everyday usage.

And please don't hide behind the skirts of the devs. They're not some kind of magic gods who are always right about MMO culture at large. Some people attach negative connotations to "toon", and some don't, and the devs are people. It's - gasp - even possible that there are devs that don't like the term either. (They probably just have better things to do than take a stand in such a trivial argument.) But either way, their opinions don't actually hold any more water than anybody else's.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm arguing more for your case than against it.
I never implied YOU in particular were trying to correct anyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. You were listed as replying to me, so I wasn't sure if I was being dressed down. Just checking, and what you're saying does make good sense.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the word, fine. You're entitled, obviously. If you "correct" someone, who is not wrong for using a term used for most animated renderings by a varied group of Rpers (be it pen an' paper or console/computer gaming) because it offends you, however innocent and harmless a word... I consider that more than a little egotistical and innappropriate. You're not here to be someone else's judge or English teacher in those cases. This is a game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is anyone here trying to "correct" anyone else? I don't see anyone laying down Right and Wrong here. Unless you're saying that it's bad of me to point out that "toon" is mere slang. It is, isn't it?

I hope I'm not getting all authoritarian about it. I'm just calling it how I see it. If it's 'inappropriate' for me to do so, then this whole conversation is inappropriate in the first place. We're just talking about whether we like the term or not, basically. I agree, anyone who would get on a high horse about it is a yogurt of some kind.

I'm relaxed. Thanks for your thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
My Grandpa never used the term "bling" for the jewelry he bought for my Grandma in the 50's, but It's damn sure a term nowadays ain't it? (and he's probably just as bitter to people saying it)

[/ QUOTE ]
Bad example ... because lots of people hate that term just as much if not more, and think the people who use it are goofballs at best. Do you think people will still be saying 'bling' in 10 years? If not, what do you think people looking back on it will think of the term?

Language does evolve, but holding up one stupid slang term as evidence that all slang is linguistic canon is probably not going to work.

[ QUOTE ]
Rolled up isn't on the same level as toon. Toon has Loony Toons conotations, rolled up has D&D conotations. And D&D would have more deep characters than Bugs Bunny.

[/ QUOTE ]
OY! Don't you dare slam on Bugs Bunny! He's much deeper than a LOT of D&D characters I've seen.

[ QUOTE ]
my characters in PnP RPGs could pick up anything they could carry. they could carry a rope, a bucket, a small child (with injury of course), and were mine to control in every way shape and form.

[/ QUOTE ]
My favorite is still the one from the HERO system rulesbook, section on throwing things: a struggling duck.

[ QUOTE ]
ps. ICF_Zombra ... "The Dark Darkness" excellent

[/ QUOTE ]
Haha, much appreciated

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps "token," "piece," or "man" (not to be sexist) would work . . .

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I love this. I would be so happy if we could institute the gender-neutral "guy".

Like, in Space Invaders, you have your little guy, shooting at the aliens, and when it gets blown up, you have two guys left.

[ QUOTE ]
I use toons cause I am hiding from the grammar nazi's.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's nazis, thank you very much. No apostrophe.

I do have something new to say on this subject!

I've always hated "toon". It always just felt so ... insipid ... next to the stately and true "character". That's the old news.

The new news:

... I've caught myself using "toon" a couple times, just from osmosis I guess. I've been inundated with the term so much on this board, I think it has finally soaked through into my subconscious.

I hate it. I hate it. I really, really hate it.

But! I am hopeful that over the next year or two, it will become so ingrained that my previous associations with those four letters will completely dissolve, and I will accept it for what it is: a value-free set of symbols denoting a particular, agreed-upon concept.

Wish me luck.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had by my standards today an extremely gimp build in i2 when the trial was introduced and managed to complete the trial. The trial aint that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hero side respec trial is much easier than the villain side trial. I don't hesitate to send my heroes to save the reactor - with friends, PUGs, whatever. My poor villains have to wait for a freespec, because I wouldn't want to go against the tree with a PUG.

[/ QUOTE ]
The hero side respec trial is much easier than the villain side trial, yes. It certainly was not when it was first introduced. MageStorm's success in doing it right after release is indeed 'bragable'. Personally, I failed the hard version sometimes and succeeded a few times - the mark of a well balanced challenge. I miss the old (hard) version of the reactor, and I personally am glad that the Villain-side trial hasn't been dumbed down into triviality (though I'm glad that it has been fixed from the buggy mess it was to begin with).

That said, sorry to hear your villains are stranded ... recommend recruiting a smart team from the boards here, maybe your server's forum. If you're on Pinnacle, feel free to drop me a PM.

@MissInformed, and anyone else who may wonder, "Who the heck uses that many anyway?":

Respecs are good. I'm not insane like the people who 'cash them in' just for inf (and, really, I have to say, to my mind that is just plain stupid. No offense to anyone in particular who does it - but please stop being dumb), but I respec most characters at least a couple times throughout their careers.

Nerfs or buffs by the devs aside, the needs of my characters change as they mature. That quick firing, low damage blast may have been worth 6-slotting when I was level 8 and had no other attacks to work with, but at level 30 I have better uses for the slots. My Dom may have picked up Tough and Weave in a desperate attempt to be more survivable through the 20s, but after 32 I have a pet to help by tanking for me. You know what, I barely ever use powers X, Y, and Z any more; how much better would life be if I just dumped them and took Stamina? You see where I am going with this.

That is the smart side of why I respec. The dumb side: I am impatient. Especially at low levels, when I see that big white fountain of sparks and hear the rrrrreeeoooop! of levelling, I go to the trainer and pick a power that sounds cool pretty much right then. After all, it only took a half hour to get to level 4, so who cares what I pick, right? Sure, I could copy to Test and take an hour reviewing my options, but my early choices usually consist of me looking at 3 or 4 shiny powers and going, "Oooh, that sounds neat," or, "Man, I need another attack. Hey, that one says High damage!" ... Of course, after some time passes and I make it to 10, 12, or 14, I'm really not going to want to start all over even if it's become clear that I made an unwise choice or two back at level 4 or 6. Especially since I can see a distant light at the end of the long tunnel to 24.

I guess it's my own fault for listening to the kitten when it says, "Hang in there, baby!"

[ QUOTE ]
How do the rest of you come up with creative stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really create. I appreciate. And if I don't like something that I have control over, I make more or less random changes to it until I like it better. It's like the old joke about how to carve a statue of an elephant.

Sorry Primal

[ QUOTE ]
I'm better than inspirations!
AM SO!
*stomps feet and runs away*

[/ QUOTE ]
Awwww, Luminara, you are an inspiration.

I can't believe I read the whole thread. OK, I skimmed some parts.

Enantiodromos, great guide and an interesting read. If you decide to post a new version some day, I'd suggest rethinking the term "natural concept". If you could rewrite it without using the words "natural" or "origin" at all, a lot of idiocy could be avoided. Maybe put a very clear disclaimer at the bottom, too, saying something like: "NOTE: While many Exceptional Human (or whatever) concepts work well with Co*'s Natural Origin, there is no direct relationship between the two. Not all Exceptional Humans must be of Natural Origin, and not all Natural Origin characters must be Exceptional Humans."

"Exceptional Human" is pretty lame, but there must be a phrase out there somewhere that still sounds cool without causing all this confusion.

I'd also recommend your upcoming Science Accident guide, if any, try to work around using the word "science". That's even harder to come up with a lame substitute for. Maybe just Bizarre Accident. Something like that. Just a suggestion. Don't want all this stupidity happening all over again, even if Science is a much less controversial Origin.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts on /Ninjitsu, having a (Natural Origin, not that it matters ) Ninja/Ninja Stalker myself:

Eh, I think it's fine as part of a "natural origin" concept. It doesn't fit 100%. I guess I would call it "appropriate" but not "ideal", because of the Kuji-In powers. They're a tidge pseudo-mystical for my tastes, what with the spellcasting-type gestures and glowing light. But really, even those can count as natural concept. What is a self heal, but drawing on inner reserves of fighting strength? On one hand, it doesn't make sense that you can now get hit a couple more times with a 50 pound sledgehammer before getting knocked out, but then again, it doesn't make sense that you can get hit 6 times with that same sledgehammer without dropping in the first place. Going from 6 to 9 hits doesn't break the concept. As for Retsu (though I don't have it yet), same thing.

All the other powers in the set, no problems. Heck, maybe it's "ideal" after all. Those two powers just look a little weird ... they don't require any more suspension of disbelief than, say, Rain of Arrows.

Was searching around for more info on the Nova & Dwarf forms and I came across this, a compelling narration of the Kheldian story. I have no idea what this guy's source is, or whether this is from canon, but it doesn't seem to contradict any of Bill's information and gives much deeper insight into the Kheldian relationships with the Novae and Dwarves - both of whom are apparently now extinct. It's especially interesting to note that the Nova forms seem to be called that because their home planet was destroyed by a nova! Imagine if humanity was wiped out by a plague, but the Kheldians escaped ... maybe a Peacebringer would call their human form Shining Plague.

Anyway, some interesting history there. Will help me a lot in trying to combine my PB's 4 personalities into one cool synergized whole. Wish me luck. And thanks Bill for this great guide.