Futurias

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  1. Sounds like you were as 'challenged' as quite a few defender builds would be against Gunslinger bosses.

    But don't you want that sort of challenge? I mean, *EVERYONE* wants challenge like that, right?
  2. Yeah, being mezzed with the current toggle suppression I would call a bad design.

    Not only can you not take any action other than to click on a break-free, your resistances or defense are reduced just when you need them to stay up.

    Like I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, defensive toggles should not suppress at all. Offensive toggle should only suppress while mezzed.

    Then a reduction (not a removal) of how often squishies can get mezzed and I think the game will actually be more fun.
  3. How about a "Not annoying to play" button?
  4. No, but you shouldn't yell at him to shut up for those of us voicing disatisfaction with squishie mezzing.

    Because there are a lot of people that find it patently unfair and unfun.

    Say, they just added all those neat options for difficulty, how about one more setting: Solo, +3 Mag Protection; Solo, normal mezz protection; Solo, no Mezz protection.

    That way the player can decide on the level of 'challenge' in that manner also.
  5. Quote:
    What are you willing to give up to get it? You don't seriously expect to be given something like that without giving anything up do you?
    Can I give up the lowest damage? 2nd lowest (and arguably the lowest) hit points?

    Range is no protection these days (everything has some sort of ranged attack or many have ranged mezz.)

    Most defender have non-stacking mezz, which means any boss (and even some lieutenants) are mezz proof to them.

    And as pointed out, you tried to show the most skewed factors on that Willpower Tank.

    A tank, for the most part, doesn't even need their secondary toggles to solo heroic. They have such high hitpoints and enough passives that they are generally fine.

    You scrapper with Katana? Has parry, a nice little ability that buffs his defense. They aren't quite as lacking in tools as you paint them (and solo against minions and lieutenants, probably enough.)

    In other words, they would have to deal with anemic leveling and cherry-picking their fights specifically to 'function'.

    Sounds exactly like a lot of defenders to me.
  6. So... things kinda went on a tangent and we learned a few things.

    Some people really hate the idea of adding light mezz protection to the Archetypes that don't have it.
    1. It would make those ATs too 'good' as they are balanced around not having mezz protection (so why are scrappers considered the solo AT of such repute?)
    2. All ATs that don't have mezz protection have tools to counter mobs that do have mezz (arguable and of limited ability at times. I find slows on bosses just about useless these days at times.)
    3. A largely ignored point was that fairly low mezz protection (2-3mag) is easy even for minions to overcome solo, much less on large teams.
    I got a lot of replies on the idea of 'no one' having mezz protection solo. After all, if a Defender with poor tools is expected to be able to solo that content, pretty much everyone should be able to do without mezz protection too!
    1. Got a lot of responses that 'melée archetypes' really need that to solo, not all of them have counter-mezz abilities.
    2. Anyone can solo without mezz protection, so? People can solo anything with enough aggravation.
    Strangely, the suggestion of removing mezz protection solo so that everyone is similarly challenged really upset some people. I mean, after all, if it's a good challenge for one archetype, shouldn't it be a good challenge for them all?

    So, really, I haven't seen one good reason not to add weighted mezz protection. Some Archetypes would get less (not not none) while others would be unchanged.
    1. It would allow the developers to more easily balance long duration stacking mezz effects without crippling all the currently non-mezz archetypes.
    2. It would make things less tedious for the non-melée archetypes to solo, though probably not quite to level of doom that some people posit.

    I apologize for not replying earlier, but I was not feeling well yesterday and I just got home today and felt up enough to be a bit more coherent.
  7. They'd probably say that 'everything was fine' before the cost reduction went into place for powers.

    Dang people for wanting to improve this game!
  8. Actually, the point about needing mezz protection to solo was to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the people saying that squishies should not get mezz-protection, because they don't "need" it.

    Yet, turned around, no one "needs" mezz-protection solo.

    The point of giving squishies minor mezz protection would actually allow the developers to use long duration mezzes that are easier to stack. Right now, they are just death on squishies.

    Done right, they could be built in such a way that tanks and scrappers would need assistance more against those mezzers while not extremely affecting squishies.

    It would create a boundary situation where the developers could plan around +18 magnitude stuns on the tanks (that might suppress his toggles for a few seconds) while it might only hit the squishies for +3 at times and only stunning them *also* for a few seconds.

    Right now, if you can stack enough long duration stuns to affect a scrapper (not even a tanker) you have probably knocked out all the squishies for most of the fight (much to their displeasure.)

    It gives the possibility to change it from a pure binary to a situational issue.
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by NeverDark View Post
    With some tactical play, they can run solo without using their secondary at all. Does this mean that they should have their mitigative abilities removed, or that squishies should get armors? Controllers can solo without using their buffing or debuffing abilities. Should those be removed or spread to everyone?

    Arguing that they have something you don't doesn't work, particularly when you have something they don't. Arguing that they can live without them isn't going to work when you have things you can live without as well.

    If you're really desperate to convince the devs that one of the core mechanics of the game needs to be significantly altered, you're going to need a much, much, much better argument than "I don't like it".
    Then why are so many people desperate to keep squishies from getting some protection?

    "Oh, Scrappers and Tankers need their protection... excepting solo. But don't add their challenge to us. Quit asking for our easy mode!"

    That's basically been about 50% of this thread. And when I turned it around and said, "How about adding that non-mezz protection challenge to scrappers and tankers?" I got yelled at that they need it and don't you dare take it away, even solo where it isn't required.

    That sounds to me like the height of hypocrisy.
  10. Actually, your 'majority' is actually less than half. Most melee sets have some sort of tool. Be it stacking debuffs (dual) or mezzing (SS, EM, MA). It may not be a hard hold, but there's more than you are stating. Or some ability to hit from Hide.

    As I was playing today, I *forgot* to turn on my mezz protection on my MA/Inv. I was playing auto-SKed up to 40 against some custom mobs and Crey. The only reason I noticed is I got KBed backwards.

    As I was a lowly 22-ish character, I had barely gotten my mezz protection, so its been an interesting point that I could solo, with only my Smash/Lethal shield. It got a lot easier with Unyielding and then Dull Pain, but it was technically possible (when I didn't have super-mobs of end-sucking electricity zapping.)

    And with all of the travel powers, you can easily get into melee when needed. Teleport can put you directly into melee with a queued power.

    So do 'scrappers and tanks really need mezz protection solo' is a quite valid question. It sure makes it easier, but I think 'required' is a stretch.

    Of course, I don't think squishies 'are required' but I do think that a little mezz protection could make them a lot more fun to play.
  11. It isn't an exaggeration. A large part of Malta missions are 'defeat blah-blah-boss' with their 20 second mezzes, even when they are downgraded to lts.

    The worst were when you didn't have good line of sight around a corner and they basically got to 'jump' on you.

    If you did not have a beak free, you were pretty guaranteed a death. But sure, keep telling yourself that 'everyone solos fine'.

    Lies that like will probably make it easier to keep your blinders on.
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
    Neither, because the current system is balanced, and works well for the vast majority of players.
    Which is still side-stepping the question. But you'd hate to admit that either part could be correct.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
    Don't you think Break Free inspirations are a fair mechanism? Each AT eventually comes to a point where there's at least one (if not more) type of Inspiration that AT does not rely on anymore, and then that Inspiration can be used to create Break Free inspirations. I'd rather see the Devs increase our ability to create Break Free inspirations as the means to make soloing easier for AT's that were designed from the get-go as a team-based AT and a challenge-AT for soloists.

    Just like Claws said before... Heaven's forbid people meet a hurdle they can't just click one button to jump over...
    The over-reliance on break-frees would indicate an actual problem with mezzing, actually.

    Just like scrappers and tanks 'relying' on blues to be able to finish missions a long time ago.
  13. But you side-stepped the question. If melee-ATs *can* solo without Mezz Protection... would it be more fair to remove their mezz protection or to grant the non-melee-ATs some mezz protection?
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
    Don't melee ATs generate more aggro? Meaning more mezzes being thrown at them?

    Defenders have their Primary (and some of their secondary) to proactively prevent being mezzed.

    Controllers have BOTH their Primary and secondary (and a APP) to prevent being mezzed.

    Blasters can attack while mezzed.

    Kheldians can use Dwarf form.

    MMs have a sheetload of pets.

    Dominators have Domination.

    So, there you go. Every AT that doesn't get mezz protection as a mechanic in place or has the ability to avoid mezz with their primary/secondary and even APP choices.

    The Melee ATs don't always have this luxury and have to face far more aggro at most times.
    What does aggro generation have to do with playing solo? All the aggro is your own then anyways.

    Defenders do not get the ability to lock down entire mobs with controls (that would be the place of controllers and dominators.)

    Let's just ask hypothetically if non-squishies could run solo without their mezz protection... should they get the 'fun challenge' added so that they are more balanced towards squishy playstyle?

    Or should we enhance the squishies slightly to play more at the non-squishies level.

    Which is more fair?
  15. Actually, I have never stated that the Devs should give everyone tanker level protection (nor even close, actually).

    What I stated was that a minor increase from nothing allows them to balance 'stacking' mezzes on tanks and scrappers that do get hit with up to four to eight time more mezzing than said squishies. But only by increasing durations that would kill squishies with no mezz protection.

    That's why Mezz resistance is a far greater boon to the non-squishies than it is to the squishies. It keeps stacking mezz from stacking. A squishie is still mezzed (if at times for minorly less amounts) but a tank basically goes from 'might get mezzed due to duration' to 'never going to get mezzed.

    High duration, stacking mezzes were the design to overcome heavy mezz protection.

    But it kills people with no mezz protection.
  16. Quote:
    Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post

    Wow, I don't want to quote the whole post, Claws, but well posted there!

    I'd also like to add that the reason why melee-centric (i.e. Tankers/Scrappers) get to shrug off and ignore those Mag 3 mezzes is because they are supposed to be hit more often with those mezzes which would amount to mez-stacking of much more than Mag 3 mezzes!
    But that gets us back to the problem of long duration, stacked mezzing to overcome tanker/scrapper mezz protection *kills* squishies that even get hit with 1/4 of the mezzes.

    Yet if squishies were 'allowed' to have a mere mag 3 protection, durations could be increased as a balance factor to over-stack mezz protection.

    In effect, giving squishies some minor mezz protection actually gives the developers the ability to tweak the mezzing that mobs can do to be more challenging to everyone.

    But according to some people, it's all about 'easy mode' and not about balance.
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
    This actually brings me to a new point. Everyone who complains about enemies that mez being "cheap", is basically saying that mezzes in general are cheap. Would you be willing to allow for that and give all enemy groups mez protection too? Because mezzes are cheap, after all.
    Mezzes are pretty cheap when you get down to it. The developers already balanced around the fact that players can't lock down whole swaths of NPCs by reducing the duration so that they can't self-stack AOE mezzes.

    Yet for some reason, squishies still have the protection of minions.
  18. Not all defenders have that sort of tool. And quite a few melee sets do have some sort of mezz.

    No one has shown me convincing evidence that Scrappers, Tanks, Stalkers and Brutes could not actually 'get by' without mezz protection solo.

    From what I've seen (and played) they would just be in the same 'unfun' boat as the squishies.
  19. You do realize that Tankers anemic damage is actually still quite a bit higher than Defenders, right? If low damage was an indicator of needing mezz protection, Defender would be top of the list.

    I do think it's funny that you are stating you 'have to play' FF or Sonics (basically) to get mezz protection, even though they are technically mezz protection buffs for your team. And that +DEF is widely reviled as so useless later on.

    I actually have played FF at times. It's incredibly boring and the worst of the 'must buff everyone powers. And can have cascade failure when a sleep hits when you are already protecting yourself from stuns and holds.

    And then, of course, you have the problem that people wander out of range of the protection in big scattered fights.
  20. Against +0/x1? Are you sure of that? Most of the time, you get to charge in there before any mezzing can land.

    Heck, if you pick teleport, you can appear next to your target with your first hit already queued.

    Do melee'ers *really* need mezz protection solo? Or would they just find it 'tough and annoying' like everyone else?
  21. It was a point of illustration that they get 'tools' that are not just hitting things to survive. How many hard controls does a FF defender get?
  22. Quote:
    Really? What mez ability does a Katana, Broadsword, Dual Blades or Fire Melee scrapper have?
    Katana does have their Defense buff (ie. not getting hit) while Dual Blades actually has a lot of possible debuffs with their chains.

    Doesn't fire armor have PBAOE patch of fire (that makes NPCs generally run away?) That's a form of soft control
  23. He actually said that much better than I could. I all actuality, I did not explain that well. It's not that I can't solo quite a few (most) of Malta's mission on that Psi/Psi Blaster...

    ...but when I ran into downgraded Malta Gunmen around a tight corner, I'd get to sit there as an icicle for a large chunk of the fight.

    I'd estimate about 1/4 or so of the missions were of that sort of annoyance. Basically it boiled down to 'check tray for any breakfrees... none. Damn, have to stop my mission and go buy breakfrees to fight that (not minion) lieutenant.

    Otherwise I'd be earning debt even on 'heroic' which was anything but heroic.
  24. Actually, against some missions without going out and buying a whole bunch of break frees, no I could not solo. My Psi/Psi blaster against Malta really, really sucked because of all the mezz.

    And BTW, all characters have some sort of mezz attack (that's why the no mezz protection in old PvP sucked so bad. It became 'who can mezz the squishy the fastest' issue.)

    They already have the tools, the damage and (when not mezzed) the heavy resistance or defense.

    If squishies don't 'need' mezz protection (so that challenge isn't 'taken away') then no one does, do they?

    Of course, they won't be soloing +3/x8, but that 'should be' team content, shouldn't it?
  25. Now isn't that strange. I bring up the idea that because anyone can solo without mezz protection, that no one solo needs to have mezz protection.

    That way everyone can be 'challenged' quite equally (I'd call it annoyed the same way.)

    An nary a reply or even an attempt to say 'it is not true.'