FeiWuLong

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What he is telling you is that blasters need secondaries that work just as badly as scrappers do the only difference is that blasters don’t have such a secondary. This has been hidden to some extent by AoE alpha strikes and exploitable bugs. Neither of these will be around forever, neither is a substitute for a real secondary.

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Yeah? And I've been telling him I AGREE. When supposed changes take effect. He insist on being butt hurt about some post I evidently took to much time responding to though to hear that. The only thing I don't agree with boosting blasters in is damage and AOE to keep up with the mobs, it's why the game is broken in the first place. Well, one of the reasons.

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LOL that is still the lamest argument going. If you are going to give an AT with poor defenses a melee power it must, be far more powerful than any melee power you give an AT with strong defenses. What you are suggesting is equivalent to suggesting tankers be given access to scrapper melee powers at full effectiveness. Actually I take that back it isn’t equivalent, what you are suggesting is 10X more outrageous.

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I'm not suggesting Scrappers be given Blasters sets. And I think it's retarded to give Blasters the most powerful melee attacks in the game. Better to give them melee cones with crowd control and low damage. Better to give them utility powers. So I think it's one of the lamest arguements going that the low DEF class gets the most powerful ranged and melee simply because in melee they're vulnerable. They already DO impressive damage, give them something more unique.

Also note that you're response gets a better response than his [censored] attitude and the conversation can continue and points are clarified. THAT is how I'd like to talk to people.

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Clearly you are not familiar with the concept of streak breakers…

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Streak breakers have essentially been disproven to make more than several points of a percentage diff in ACC. It's even lower the better your DEF. Because the streak breaker increase the number of misses before it activates. So at really high DEF, it might take 30 misses before something gets the streak breaker, most things don't live that long.


Sorry to butt in on your debate, but just wanted to throw that info out there.

Well I'm sorry if you felt like you were attacked. I was not attacking you though.

I asked you if you felt it was unfair. There was a "?" at the end.

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Now I'm arguing the merits of my secondary with someone who's never used it

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I wasn't talking about YOUR secondary. I said that Blaster secondaries are lame for them, thus they mostly ignore them, where as they are NEEDED for scrappers and the rest of the AT's. But that's not necessarily a reflection of the Blaster 2nds themselves as it is the blaster primes. e.g. Many scrappers would take blaster 2nds as 1sts. Keep it straight.

Edited for being needlessly rude

First, the smallest fragment of our conversation was about blaster secondaries in a thread not even about that. Why do you stick with that tiny portion?

Second, the point was that the Blasters primes are so good that they make their secondaries look bad. However, to most other AT's those seconds would not be as much of a letdown.

You're gonna argue that? There's a whole Scrapper board I'd introduce you to. Then the tankers.

Oh, I'm still waiting for you to point out where I attacked you.

Kid, you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag.

But keep holding onto my 2nds are gimped, maybe it will keep you warm at night.

Here's a valium for you, take it with some booze and do us a favor.

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[censored] fei. you went after me then got pissed because I defended myself.

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Where, heph, did I "went" after you? Please provide a quote of me attacking you.

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you can't deal with it tough.

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Who throws the tantrums and needs to be bleeped on the boards?

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I could care less If they got rid of alpha strikes if they balanced our AT so that we weren't so damned dependant on them.

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Then why are you defending them as a necessary part of the game? Your posts would lead one to think that without alpha-strike you will be unable to solo. The only thing I've pointed out is that you (i.e. blasters in general) would be able to respec for more defenses IF the devs raised mob HP and did nothing else for blasters.

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As for the improvement to the Other AT's I don't give two [censored] about when they happend. I was saying that the improvements came because players brought the Dev's attention to weaknesses in their power sets.

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Certainly. I agree. But you also were saying that these sets didn't have to re-roll or make new toons entirely, that they spoke up and were given such changes with no need to respec. Which is not true for several reasons. 1.) Many of those sets did get re-rolled or outright deleted. 2.) Respec came with the majority of those improvements. I was only asking if you though the boosts were unfair, which is a question, I wasn't telling you what you thought. And pointing out that there's no basis for being indignant and acting like somehow Blasters got/will get a raw deal.

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Blasters try to do the same and people like you flood our board saying we don't need improvements.

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Say WHAT?!?

Ok, if we're talking about the present. I will argue against Blasters getting boosts. Most changes didn't matter to blasters anyway. Besides this, just last night my Blaster was fine. Is he past 40, no, I concede that maybe the game will ruin him at that stage. But regardless, you've stated yourself you've found the changes "refreshing", that you haven't had to change any of your strategies. So don't blame shift this on me. Especially if we agree that blasters are fine now.

If we're talking about the future, I am perfectly open to ideas about how/what blasters may need to work properly. Keeping alpha-strike aoe dominance however is not one of them. So if that's your plan, I'm against it because it breaks the game. I haven't heard many theoretical ideas on this thread, most of what I've heard is complaints that don't take into account what other AT's deal with. And my defense power pool suggestions were ideas that may make Blasters viable in the solo game if there is no immediate boost to blasters when theoretical mob changes happen.

How am I keeping an AT that I play down again?

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I disagree. Our secondaries are gimped, and our AT is unbalanced.

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You just said a page back or so that you weren't gimped.

Listen, you play a scrapper, or so you say, you should realize that for how lame Blaster 2nds are to Blasters, they are amazingly good in general. Most if not all Scrappers would gladly take them in place of their primes.

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If people want us toned down we need something to balance out the other end.

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I agree with an amendment. If the toning simply puts the general AT on par with the general other AT's, something on the other end is not necessarily needed. It would depend entirely on what's changed though.

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if you want to attack someone go after the people who want your AT nerfed so that we all suck equally.

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I never attacked anyone, so I don't know what to tell you about that. What was the nasty thing I said? "Cry me a river"? Which was directed to somebody else, and not that mean. Or is it the fact that I don't agree with you about everything you write?

I play three AT's. I've no interest in seeing any of them become unplayable. Certainly the Scrapper has had the most play, but tankers pre-patch were slow as hell, now they're just slow, so he was shelved for a while.

Notice how I don't use aggressive language and insults with you, I'd like to see you rise to that in the future.

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When did I EVER say that my build was gimped?

When did I EVER say that scrapper defenses were over balancing...


When did I EVER say the improvements to other AT's were unfair?

When did I EVER say I souldn't solo?


Get a [censored] clue.

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Take a downer ya lil spaz. Or is it a bi-polar disorder? Everything you're freaking out about were, with perhaps the exception of one thing, questions, not statements about the content of your posts. If you can't handle a question feel free to not respond, period.

If you don't have a problem with the Defenders getting some endurance reduction, MA getting it's animations fixed, tankers getting endurance love, etcetera, why are you mentioning it? Are you just bringing it up because it seemed like a novel concept to break off about in conversation about how you'll never be able to solo if Statesman has his way?

You bring up these boosts to AT sets as if they weren't deployed at the same time as the respect trial. And for your information plenty of these wonderfully boosted sets ARE doing the respect mission to make better use of their builds.

You've stepped into the realm of complete jackhole. I've not once insulted you or called you names, and you resort to the most inane tactic. You take the smallest fragment of my posts, take them out of context, turn them into statements, and then throw a hissy fit as if I have somehow lost my bearings in your well thought our polemic. Well bullsh*t dood.

You can't keep it straight from post to post. Are blasters troubled now?

Hepher says, "Post 30 the game for blasters is a never ending battle to stay debt free."

Well, just above you say you never said you "souldn't" solo.

If your real worry is alpha-strikes going away. Well... Worry, that's why the mobs are being improved. The devs know that it makes combat trivial, and removes any need for anything but damage dealing. I think it's telling that of all the AT's the Blasters have been dealt the fewest boosts, perhaps because they don't need them. But give States some credit, he's not going to leave your AT high and dry.

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There you hit on it perfectly fei.....

Your secondary is something you NEED to survive.

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You don't see how this unfair?

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Our secondaries don't help us survive in the same sense. they help us survive by doing more damage. So compairing the two is apples and oranges.

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I compare not because I'm saying Blaster seconds are required to survive. I compare to point out that of all the AT's your seconds are the least necessary, and not because they're not good.

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Our Primary is our defense. God like damage.

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And nobody else gets the benefit of every slot and power counting as double. Don't forget range.


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And you almost sound like blasters that want to be effective don't already have to arrange our pools well. Like we can just willy nilly take any pool we want....

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If that's what it sounds like, then I will correct the impression by saying that's not what I mean. But if you compare PP's in Tanker, Scrappers, and Blasters for effective builds you'll see a clear advantage for the Blasters.

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A highly offensive build with low defense and sub par damage mitagation.

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...Will no longer be able to solo as dominatingly as it once did. Your build will stand out amazingly in teams, and would probably render just about ANY scrapper moot for damage.

I guess I'm not seeing how you're gimped. Your build is fine, but maybe not as awesome for solo play as it once was, that's a far cry from nerfed.

I slogged through dozens and dozens of levels in various rolls of MA/SR before this recent patch. I delt with slow, highly resisted damage solo, and virtually no utility in group play. If post patch I'm a little closer to blasters, and blasters a little closer to me, I think the devs are doing their job. And really, the only thing changed was SG on the blaster end.

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Erratic thinks that having to scrap a build you worked on for hours over months is a fair and equitible solution. When every other AT get's fixes to round out their AT's.

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No. It's pretty obvious he thinks that if you want to stick with your character, there are respects in the game. Which is a fine option till the devs fix something that lacks parity.

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In fact all Defender blasts got an endurance reduction.

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Are you trying to say this isn't fair?

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Super Strenght tankers don't have to rebuild super strenght got buffed. All tanker attacks got endurance reductions, and more tanker damage is coming down the pipe. Many tanker primaries are getting lots of attention from the DEVs.....

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Even in the deepest of debt, nearly any blaster combo can out level a */SS tanker. Or really any tanker beside fire tankers.

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Super reflexes, Dark Armor, Katanna, Martial arts? all got buffs or have them in the works.

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I willing to bet that even after this last patch blasters will outlevel a MA scrapper.

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All of these changes came about because players told the devs that certain things were defective. They kept plugging away. They didn't drop their toons and start over.

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Sure they did. Plenty of people put aside their mains or alts, or outright deleted them. A few people brought attention to sub-standard sets over and over. And its not as if these sets have been buffed to uber standards, they brought them up to a decent level, in some cases not enough was done.

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If the devs are dead set on nerfing my damage I want the defensive tools to be viable.

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Again, what nerf to blaster damage?

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Pools are not defining powers. They are powers that help us round out game play.

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You should plug that into the tanker and scrapper boards, they'd be mighty happy to hear that.

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My defense remains my offense. That is what was intended.

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Indeed, but alpha-strike AOE dominance of anything else in the game was not intended. All the dev ruminations on the topic are about fixing this glaring error in design.

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1. 24 powers; take into account travel and fitness (that's 5 minimum). 19 powers; We now have two pools to use, Stealth & Leadership. Blasters receive the lowest bonus (does that mean its a penalty?) for Leadership...so, let's avoid that. Take CJ/SJ/Acrobatics instead....every blaster MUST become a super jumper to persue Acrobatics (Hover offers same def bonus 5-11% as CJ, but Acrobatics makes Jump line worth more). So, that 6 powers, leaving 18. Take Stealth, Fighting or Leadership. Four more powers for those? Leaves 14 powers. Should be plenty, right? Why not just make a Power Pool AT? EVERY blaster will be REQUIRED to use 10 power pool selections just to be viable for developing, and most of those will not be able to take early in the game to even develop. So, lets all go out and make Super-Jumper blasters that can't run down the street at 10th level without dying.....

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Geez. Cry me a river. You realize that most well built scrappers that are not INV take Fitness for Stamina, get Hasten, and also take the fighting line to suppliment their defenses. Not only that, but our secondaries are required, they're not just a few ultility or flavor powers. If you're not DM, you're probably going to get all 9 powers from SR, you'll want a lot of DA's powers if you have that... You see where this is going? This is why most uber scrapper builds only have 4-5 attacks at most. At lot have four, and buildup. Tankers have it bad to, they need Stamina like everyone else, probably would like Hasten. Oh, and more than likely Provoke should show up in there. Wow, three PP's down. They NEED to dip into PP's to do their job.

I posted this earlier, but you may have missed it.

Well, lets take a defensive oriented non-dev blaster with something more reasonable.

Concealment
Fitness
Fighting
Leaping (if you have Fire as your second you could probably go with flight and hover instead, but I considered Acrobatics as a possible choice for some who don't have burn.)

9 powers, including the travel power and the very required Stamina. You could make it 10 if you REALLY wanted Acrobatics.

Now of those 9 you should probably spend 23 slots. This includes stamina. So for 18 slots you're getting 20% res + 38.75 Def. Enough to reduce an even con to roughly an 11% chance to hit you. Not bad for having no defenses of your own besides massive amounts of kill potential. Obviously there ARE a lot of Devs running around. So drop Stealth, take the lovely Hasten and now for an extra five slots you're in perma-hasten, increasing offensive power (we know what that does for defense) and granting an extra 5% def. Even minions are at 6% to hit you. Nearly the cap. Now add Smoke grenade, no slots in it at all... You just hit the cap, and since it's not a reductive debuff, it's even more effective against higher cons.

You get, what 67 extra slots by 50? You could just about 6 slot ALL of the attacks. Which, who needs to, so it opens up those slots for other powers in your secondary or pools. Now if you're willing to team, you don't even need to slot that heavy in a lot of these things.

But yeah, go ahead and pop that luck, scrappers do it ALL the time too. And for the 30 seconds that it lasts, after you tossed a single slotted SG, you just capped DEF against +3 minions. Or you nearly did without it.

I would also amend, that if you've got all 9 attacks from your main, you don't really need Hasten. It might be nice, but you could give it up and put some other PP or power in it's place.

God you would laugh/cry if you knew all the crap Dark Armor has to do to even survive these days.

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2. Blasters focusing on defense......hmmm, seems a curious way to build.

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ANY character that wishes to solo at their most effective must have defensive capabilities. Don't feel like putting in the powers, group. Or you could probably get by with much less if you simply adjusted what you went up against.

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the discussion is whether blasters CAN be effective at soloing, once the DEVs make the changes they tarted they will make.

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You think the changes would only matter to blasters? Tankers, besides fire, still don't solo very fast. Blasters easily outpace them even with a ton of debt. Controllers pre-32 are going to have an even harder time of it. Scrappers pre-22 are going to have an even harder time of it. And if the defenses of the tankers start to matter, thats going to seriously impact the ability of scrappers as well.

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I proposed that it was becoming less and less likely. Many others agree.

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Only the devs know for sure what directions they're moving in, so making theories based on a sentence here and there is hardly good reasoning. The net effect will likely be that blasters do not solo as well as they once did. They might actually want to group. Fights might actually last long enough that all the AT's can contribute to an encounter. Sounds good to me.

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That is why I say its not fair to us blasters to make so dramatic changes in the game, at a point where we spent hours to create characters with the expectation that we will be able to play them the same way in the future.

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I think it's distinctly unfair that for months one AT's design has essentially been able to run rampant negating much of the need of the other AT's in the high level game. You don't need a healer if you never take damage, you don't need a controller to control mobs if they die instantly. Tankers might herd mobs into nice tight groups, but beside that, no need. Scrappers just chase corpses. As far as I know, Scrappers still don't do much in the Hamidon battle.

If we're going by the concept that the Devs ease back on the stun madness, and increase the mob hp (and exp rewards) Blasters will still be able to Alpha Strike blues and greens, and make more exp than most builds in most AT's. This debate seems like a lot of hot air.

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considering the risk of engaging anything at melee range as a blaster they should be the most damaging.....

to tell the truth they shouldn't even be there.

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I'll agree that they shouldn't even be there.

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To do this, the Defense - minded Blaster must run 3 toggles, Hasten, and toss Smoke Grenade. That's quite the En cost for that much Defense --

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Not bad considering for 4 powers and 15 slots (18 if you count the inherent), and three toggles I get 40% defense and 30% res.



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SR scrappers can get 60% with just one toggle.

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What toggle is this? Do you mean Elude? Keep things in perspective. This is a 38th level power, and Perma-Elude is something that only DM will be able to pull off with any kind of effectiveness due to the endurance penalty. If you plan to respect powers out to save on slots, be prepared to either never exemplar to check out early level content (new or missed) or do it and find the experience even MORE painful than it would have been.

As an aside to Blaster melee damage, it's also the most damaging melee attacks in the game. Even more than the melee classes. Just a random tidbit of info.

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Hate to burst your bubble, fei...... but "intelligent slotting?" slotting what?

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Well, you're not bursting anything, you're just replying to a fraction of what I wrote. But anyway, onto the rest.

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If you mean attacks there is only one optimal scheme. Damage, and lot of it. Yeah spare a slot for accuracy...... but post stamina that's it.

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Most good scrapper builds operate on the same principle. A few high level players will also put an end reduction into a few attacks. And personally. I'd take the blaster end reduction over criticals anyday.

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You max damage on everything else. And if the attack has an inherent accuracy factor you forgo that too. just pure damage....

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Yup. Lotta blaster AOE gets acc buffs. Kinda nonsense to me, and I play one.

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You get hasten to wipe out the need for recharger... and replace that with sweet, sweet damage. Why? because as a blaster optimal damage out put is a must. do you see invincible tankers and scrappers slotting for accuracy or endurance post invincitbility and stamina? hell no. Because they know what I know. the more damage the better.

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Yes, there are entire books it seems written on the fine art of Scrappers trying to keep up with Blaster damage, all of involving highly elaborate power and slot selections. Oh, and rather specific 1st and 2nd choices.

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Back to defense. A non dev blaster has only a few defensive options open to him... all of them in the form of pool powers.

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They all have powers with defensive utility. Just none so blatant as something like Cloaking for example. Otherwise, yes I agree.

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A non dev blaster built for defense would need

jumping
fighting
concealment
leadership

he'd lose 8 powers for that, and possibly 36 slots. so he could reach an awesome 36% defense bonus against even conned minions.... that he won't be able to kill having screwed up his offensive punch.... and endurance trying to run all those toggles and fight.

Personally I'll stick to inspirations.

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Well, lets take a defensive oriented non-dev blaster with something more reasonable.

Concealment
Fitness
Fighting
Leaping (if you have Fire as your second you could probably go with flight and hover instead, but I considered Acrobatics as a possible choice for some who don't have burn.)

9 powers, including the travel power and the very required Stamina. You could make it 10 if you REALLY wanted Acrobatics.

Now of those 9 you should probably spend 23 slots. This includes stamina. So for 18 slots you're getting 20% res + 38.75 Def. Enough to reduce an even con to roughly an 11% chance to hit you. Not bad for having no defenses of your own besides massive amounts of kill potential. Obviously there ARE a lot of Devs running around. So drop Stealth, take the lovely Hasten and now for an extra five slots you're in perma-hasten, increasing offensive power (we know what that does for defense) and granting an extra 5% def. Even minions are at 6% to hit you. Nearly the cap. Now add Smoke grenade, no slots in it at all... You just hit the cap, and since it's not a reductive debuff, it's even more effective against higher cons.

You get, what 67 extra slots by 50? You could just about 6 slot ALL of the attacks. Which, who needs to, so it opens up those slots for other powers in your secondary or pools. Now if you're willing to team, you don't even need to slot that heavy in a lot of these things.

But yeah, go ahead and pop that luck, scrappers do it ALL the time too. And for the 30 seconds that it lasts, after you tossed a single slotted SG, you just capped DEF against +3 minions. Or you nearly did without it.

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Not with the right choices in powers. Whirring hands will make short work of 10 +2 minions. For that matter grab 90 more then jump in a dumpster and start spamming an AoE and all 100 will die pretty fast.

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No way. First, herding and stacking don't work as they used to. Second, you assume this is with an INV tanker (as you wouldn't even suggest it with Ice). Not all tankers herd like INV. Third, most can agree that Blasters overall do more damage than scrappers, clearly tankers do less than scrappers. It should be %75, but it's more like 30-50% effectively in game. I think if INV/EM was soooo easy mine and many more would be 50th, and more than 10% of the player base would be tanks.

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10 +2 minions pose no threat to a well built scrapper.

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Yeah? At what level? Certainly not pre-20. DA is virtually gimped now, and that was the prime psi defense for high level gaming. INV is pretty awesome, but psi goes right through it.

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Against 10 2+ minions? I can guarantee you that my fire controller will go through groups like this like crazy with no risk to me whatsoever. The only problem is finding enough of them to satisfy my apatite. If I can find a second group I will likely have that dead before a blaster using TB is even up and hunting again after willing the first one.

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So all the screams coming from the Controller board post patch 2 are really woots of uberness?

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If we discount people who were PL’d I know more controllers, tanks and scrappers then blasters.

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Most of them I've seen are blasters, the only tanker I ever saw was fire. Maybe I have bad luck.

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theres also no need for eratdick to be "fixing my statements" That is condescending and insulting.

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Agreed. But you come off poorly when you resort to stuff like eratdick. Just tell him he's being condescending.

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And what you don't understand is that a heavily defensive build becomes pointless to a blaster after a certain point. we're not scrappers.... defensively there is no comparison. our defense is offense

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I understand quite well that the best defense is offense.

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we survive by keeping battles short and sweet. not by lowering ourselves to powder poof offense and praying we don't get hit.

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Right, you'd have to be a MA/SR scrapper pre-patch for that to be true. Listen, god forbid you need to do intelligent slotting like the ENTIRE scrapper AT has had to do to not be gimp. I'm not debating that a well made scrapper is awesome, but it's certainly been true for a long time that it was easier to make an ok blaster than scrapper. And harder to gimp a blaster than a scrapper. Most good scrappers don't take more than 5 powers from their primary because they need to 6-slot PP and their secondary so heavily. If you wish to solo like a scrapper, you might need to do the same thing. If you wish to team (where my blaster still completely owns my scrapper for damage, over time or anyway you'd slice it) you probably don't need to be as particular.

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but by the late game they are unstoppable juggernauts. some capable of out tanking a tanker. most capable of out damaging a blaster simply by living longer.

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Post 40 scrappers get much better. Post 40 defense matters so little that scrappers can tank as much as is needed. I'd hesitate to call them unstoppable though. Just last night I saw my friend grouping with 4 other 41-45 blasters in PI. They absolutely chewed through mobs before anything could happen to them.

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Because all we are is damage. If the dev's had wanted to they could have given us lowered offense.... and medium defense. but they gave us high damage and low defense for a reason. "OFFENSIVE JUGGERNAUT." Now everyone seems to want us to do minimal damage while retaining our fragility.


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Minimum damage? Where did the devs say they're reducing Blaster damage?

Come on, could we keep this civil?

The large amount of stuns and mezzes by minions is a mistake/bug people. States has said that they will be rolled back.

The majority of street mobs in SC or Skyway are 4-5. You may stumble upon larger numbers as you head north or south depending on the zone, but those city zone mobs are pretty reasonable in size. If they're way larger (which I haven't seen) it may be a patch related bug.

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no thanks [censored] hole.

Build like what? Ignore offense and self gimp? There are blasters already doing that. combat jumping, fighting, manuevers, 6 slotted smoke grenade... stealth.... cloaking devices...hover. guess what? you're still flat on your [censored] dead. still stunned and one shotted. Change the way you play? there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way I play. How would you know anyways? Ever team with me? hell no.

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I think you need to calm down, there's no reason to be insulting.

The things you're listing are issues that scrappers have delt with for some time. We, if we wish to solo, often need to partake of power pools and heavily slot our defenses at the expense of offense to survive. My Blaster no longer solos better than my scrapper, but my blaster certainly still dishes out a hell of a lot more damage in a group. Seems like the way the the AT's were meant to be.

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No - we're not done with Super Reflexes. It's still "on the list" of ongoing issues, but it's sort of on a back burner right now.

The number one priority is to get Expansion 2 live. After that, it's fixing the problem that the game is TOO easy post level 25ish (and AOE attacks just rule). Then I'll be returning to dear ole' SR. Promise.

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Thank you Jeebus!