Extremus

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/EA's hardcore, the amount of Mind/* Dom's and Controllers I've destroyed because they click TK and switch targets is disturbing. *dances inside someone's Repulsion Field*

[/ QUOTE ]

Repulsion Field does knockback NUB!!

[/ QUOTE ]
I was busy. Being tired. Lamer. Bow first.

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea in this game, normally its when a superior force simply beats the [censored] out of people that doesnt have a chance to fight back. So I guess 3 people with very good skill can be called gankers. Cause what is generally in the zones cant fight 3 good people with good choice of ATs working together.
I have beaten the [censored] out of 20+ villains with an emp by my side(Elerith). Did we gank them? They didnt have a chance really.

And golden girl stop PLing your postcount.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was fun.

Imag's right though, it's all about how someone perceives it. Is it being attacked by superior numbers? Or a superior force in terms of skill?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers need hide to do any significant damage(except EM stalkers)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you happen to see mine and Xanthus's (teamed) match last night after yours?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's got one, I've got one, Imaginary's got one. We know what they can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course, thats what he said in the post i quoted I dont think anyone out there doesnt know what EM does, more I was asking if he saw the match to extole the virtues of EA, the malaigned secondary.

[/ QUOTE ]

/EA's hardcore, the amount of Mind/* Dom's and Controllers I've destroyed because they click TK and switch targets is disturbing. *dances inside someone's Repulsion Field*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers need hide to do any significant damage(except EM stalkers)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you happen to see mine and Xanthus's (teamed) match last night after yours?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's got one, I've got one, Imaginary's got one. We know what they can do.

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like her's back for this Xmas, judging by what I hear about the test server. Wether he gives the same badge though, I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]
He does, for 5 kills. And seeing you have to complete the Christmas mission 4 times for all the Christmas stoofz, one more isn't much of a drag.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was kinda hoping the you'd be able to fight in the actual cage, so others could watch, rather than being taken to a copy of the cage

[/ QUOTE ]

would be easy to do as well seeing as there is pvp flagging code that is location specific in warburg at the bases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not for heroes vs villains though. I think there would need to be some fairly major game code changes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter in the Arena as it's team based, not faction based. It'd just have to flag Team A as PvP Enabled and Team B as PvP Enabled, I guess.

Aside from lacklustre PPP's and a smattering of slots for non-PPP powers, there's not much difference. So I'd probably say high was mid-thirties +.

@MaxPowerz: Warburg action is always good, but it seems every time some gets going for a few weeks it just fizzles out.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets not dress anything up any more than it already it, vilains are not specialised, they are a mediocre mix of hero powers by and large and are a master of nothing. They ARE weaker in pvp than heroes, this is a simple fact of life, US players take this far more seriously that we do and villain PVP teams CANNOT take on heroes no matter the villain formula/team, heroes can always overcome.

back to the op, cm isnt overpowered and doesnt need a nerf, villain ATs need fixing and they probably will be, heroes have been around a lot longer and had way more tweaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villains don't get anything as effect as a Rad/Psi targetter, nor do they get chunk of near unresistable damage and unresistable debuffs.

Just because some US players are skilled PvP'ers doesn't mean their words are gospel, don't treat it as such Stalk_obot.

[/ QUOTE ]

All long term US pvpers abandon their villain alts for heroes in serious pvp, I treat nothing as gospel, I see it for myself even then you should beleive none of what you hear and only 50% of what you see.

Heres another example though, how many of the EU PVPers like the PDs have high level villain ATs that they pvp with?

Its not a case of someones word, just simple logic and analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Warburg capapble? Warburg's good, best balance, no APP or PPP issues. Lets see, there's Me, Arch, Imag, Mesmer, Nightbringer, White Magus, EternalStorm, Irradiator when he's got an active account, Xanthus though admittedly not on the same server, but he's good for Sirens. Nearly every villain we have is pretty much for PvP.

When we're all on, we usually end up in Sirens though, unfortunately that's still where most of the action goes on.

[ QUOTE ]
Well satantic, i was waiting for this post.

Well before i had respec'd my stalker in pvp i had no stealth, i found it hard pvp' EVERYTHING could see it, it was pathetic. even ice tanks have percepton...why does a tank need pereception?, anyway i respec'd with this i8 respec into a pvp build, im energy/ninj and i got myself stealth right..i head ut to pvp and i can hardly see any differance, ice tanks can still see me, everyone has tactics etc, and to tip it off, CM stacks and now im been chased by blasters, i think stalkers have a nice advantage in sirens due to not to many people carrying tactics, but in RV, or WB, basiclly everyone can almost ee you, and a stalker cant do anything with stealth..so yeah, nice post satanic, we have enough +perceptions to deal with, without having to worry about Cm's looking through our stealth

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that if you opponent is at the Perception cap, and you're at the Stealth cap, that's 10ft away. Throw in some Defense buffs and maybe Frostwork, and you're pretty damn suvivable. Even if they can see you that close.

[ QUOTE ]
At the end of the day perception/stealth needs work.

All these people complaning that Clear Mind is stackable. Does it matter? Most PvP toons have 1 +perception power themselves so CL will let you see anything within a few feet. Once the Stealth/ perception cap is reached thats it. So for stalkers it does not matter for doms on the otherhand they will find it impossible to hold the opposition.

No game like this will ever be truly balanced. Yes CM in my opinion should not stack but i would rather see other things in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Super Reflexes, Ninjitsu, Ice Armour and Dark Armour and Warshades, and of course, Focused Acc (again something for debate another time). That's not "most PvP toons".

And as for non-self stacking, I'd rather they add PvP functionality to villain powers/sets than nerf a power and end up reducing it's pve functionality.

But hey, if CM doesn't self stack. I don't want Stealth powers stacking on Stalkers either, no Stealth+Hide.

[ QUOTE ]
Well lots of arguements about clear mind. Personally hate it when there are a couple of toons with that power as you tend to see a swift tide of hero dominance. Having it so it only stacks from different users could make a difference and make it more enjoyable for the opposition. A dominators life is hard enough as it is without clear mind .

[ QUOTE ]
ie. bigger problem, people dont even PLAY support characters. I dont think Ive ever even seen a thermal corr in Sirens..

[/ QUOTE ]

Im guessing most of those that are saying that play defiant? Often when gone pvping in sirens had quite strong teams but lack of fear resistance tend to really bugger things up. Its only a matter of time before buff users just swap toons or leave because (obviously) targeted first and their team in general feels useless.

Clearly it be advantageous for something to be done - can tone down clear mind or buff up villains but I do feel heroes do have a better hand to deal with villains.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is to bring things like Thaw in line with CM. Having it stack from different casters only for Mez prot would really harm it's PvE use, as well as it's PvP use.

[ QUOTE ]
Lets not dress anything up any more than it already it, vilains are not specialised, they are a mediocre mix of hero powers by and large and are a master of nothing. They ARE weaker in pvp than heroes, this is a simple fact of life, US players take this far more seriously that we do and villain PVP teams CANNOT take on heroes no matter the villain formula/team, heroes can always overcome.

back to the op, cm isnt overpowered and doesnt need a nerf, villain ATs need fixing and they probably will be, heroes have been around a lot longer and had way more tweaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villains don't get anything as effect as a Rad/Psi targetter, nor do they get chunk of near unresistable damage and unresistable debuffs.

Just because some US players are skilled PvP'ers doesn't mean their words are gospel, don't treat it as such Stalk_obot.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well Extremus...then I suggest you take your Dominator and joins some random teams in sirens call and do PvP ALOT every week for at least 2 month's...then come back and post your results/opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

But part of the problem (as Ext mentioned) is most villain teams in Sirens don't seem to work together. They don't keep buffs applied, the don't spike targets etc. That's not an issue with the game, that's an issue with the players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mate, when Ive been to sirens call on villain side there havent been any buffs on the characters to apply really. Serophina's corr is the only one who has been steadily applying buffs and quite frankly I dont know what good did the ice shields even do. Cause they never helped me not to die in an obvious situation.

ie. bigger problem, people dont even PLAY support characters. I dont think Ive ever even seen a thermal corr in Sirens..

[/ QUOTE ]

See, problem with the players. Supports great, but it can be very selfless. But I can say from experience, the shields do help. I've been on both sides of them, and they can be awesome.

@Lost_Samurai: Yup, skill comes in to it a lot more than people give credit.

[ QUOTE ]
Golly! I was just typing a long response explaining how the villain ATs had design faults compared to heroes.. but something just occurred to me:

My own poison masterminds power: antidote. hold res, sleep res, immob res, disorient res, 50% res to -speed and -recharge, duration 90 seconds, duration same as clear mind. Recharge 4 secs. Afaik it doesnt have +percep.. (info from prima guide, i dont have the power atm)

But its available at lvl 20, which means sirens call and even bloody bay if im not mistaken. Unfortunately I dont have it on my MM at the moment but I need to test it to see if it can compare to clear mind..I could respec my MM..

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much the same as Thaw iirc. No +Perc, +Res Confuse or +Res Fear. Quite why the Devs thought these things existed is beyond me. =\

I'm guessing this is FFA?

No more quote mountain, it annoys Bridger, and I'm sure this thread'll annoy him enough.

Anyway...

You couldn't get to the Empath? That's why I don't like Zonal PvP anywhere near as much as Arena. Too much unsportsmanlike behaviour, safe zones to hide in etc...

So the issue is that Therm, Cold and Sonic are rare, so it's hard to build a good synergised team for Villains? Player problem.

Your cap suggestion, if you're talking Mag as opposed to Application, is flawed. Controllers and Dominator's would have a fairly easy time of it in the Arena, there's a very good reason Hold Supression was implemented.

Dominators and Controllers have issue taking down a buffed target, a Blaster should have issue taking down a buffed target, infact, any AT should have issue taking down a comparable AT that is buffed to high heaven. As it stands, that's how it works in reasonably balanced teams (build, AT spread and experience). In zones there is a lot of disparity in all of those aspects.

Villains biggest "flaw", it seems, from popular consensus is that Corrupters are the weak point, with Dominators coming close second. I've already mentioned why I think Dominator's can be problematic, lets touch on Corrupters.

Basically, there's not enough equality. They get some truelly great, show stopping, fantasmagical powers, but some of these are Tier8 and Tier9 in their secondary. Now, it's farely obvious that PvP was 'balanced' for 38-40 (I say this because of the APP>PPP debate).

Now, the way I see it, they make Thaw comparable to CM, bar maybe the +Perc. They maybe switch round a few powers in the Sonic Secondary to get Clarity in at 28, though if Thaw's changed, it's not as much of an issue. Throw in some Fear/Confuse Res to one Cold shield and maybe +Perc to the other, and now we're getting somewhere. Apart from the buff %'s that's certainly equaled the buff/debuff side a bit as far as Corrupter-vs-Defender is concerned.

Thing is, Villains get one primary buff AT in Corrupters. As far as I'm concerned, that's what they should do, there damage modifier isn't high enough to be a true damage dealer in PvP, even with buffs, they simply won't equal a Scrapper or Blaster. Some Stalkers and Brutes do good in a damage comparison, especially if they (ever) fix Fury for PvP. As for secondary buffers, Hero's get Controllers. WOOOO, yay for more buffs. All for that, but Villains got a bit shafted. They get what? Masterminds? Well, that sucks, some nice powers, but either impractical or toned down so as you don't get God Mode'd Henchmen.

That's the biggest gap in any Villain to Hero comparison right there. That and Fury being broken, mind you, Vigilance isn't that good in PvP either... or Defiance, for a Corrupter, that's like a free kill.

So what should we do?

We could maybe give Corrs more choice, Poison's nice, pretty Corruptery if you ask me. But again, still limited to the AT. MM's have a mobility issue and are super squishy out of Bodyguard which means that they're not as usefull as a Controller, even ignoring Mez's.

Hero's have two buffers to the Villains one if you plan on moving around a lot, or infact, at any pace at all, and you should be moving. They get Stalkers and Brutes as heavy hitters, Dominator's can hit hard via Domination, and Corrupters are great at finishing a kill.

But, Corr's have powers that make things explode in their Primary, that tells players that making things explode is a higher priority than going for team support. Problem. Maybe swap the Primary's and Secondary's? We know they won't, but it could solve a lot of the problem. Throw in a minor damage increase to offset that you get you Tier8 and Tier9's 35+ and keep the current buff %'s to stop them making Defender Mk2. They'd be more Offender than Blastfender, as they are now.

But you know what all this will amount to? The Dev's will buff Domination, as far as they're concerned, that's the only issue and is the only way to buff Dom's. They do it in pretty much every semi-major update.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what Stalk said.

I have a fire/therm corruptor, and despite fire attacks being my primary, they are only on a par with a defenders, which is their secondary set.

Also, defenders have access to better buffs and debuffs, corruptors dont. I get 2 and both of those are the last powers I get in my secondary.

As Stalk said, sure I can buff people, but the heals root and are a secondary, I can also shield people but on the whole, even though we have more choice of types of shield, they are still not as good as Hero shields available.

With the Clear Mind issue, maybe it should be stackable but only from different players, rather than loads from the same one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty tired, so forgive me if you take anything the wrong way.

Corrupters should lay on the damage once the target hits 30$ odd HP. Scourge is insance when it's coming from a few Corrs and is near impossible to heal off. Brutes and Stalkers are better equipped to get them to the Scourge point than a Corrupter is. Until you drop a load of Scourge on a target, buff, debuff, stay mobile. Thermal's heal no longer roots, and while your Shields aren't as good as a Sonic Defender's, they're more than enough to slow an attacker down. Throw in your Heals, plus you've got Forge which is awesome on a damage dealer, and the +ToHit from it will negate Fortitude quite easily.

And numbers wise, the % on Defender debuffs are better, but the Corrupter gets better debuffs in what they do. Insane slows, good -res and -def, -secondary effects. Used properly on something like the Empath, Rad or Sonic and you break the enemies support chain and then you start picking up kills all over the place.

[ QUOTE ]
Well Extremus...then I suggest you take your Dominator and joins some random teams in sirens call and do PvP ALOT every week for at least 2 month's...then come back and post your results/opinions.

You say you have stacked over Sonic Dispersion and a BF quite easily...well, I have probably done something similar (just with CM and a BF eventually) but have you ever tried holding someone uber stacked on CM or popping BF's like others are popping pringles ? Several times Ive had maybe 6+ DOMINATION boosted holds stacked at ONCE on the same target......zip, the hero was still moving around and attacking me.

And when it comes to all the buffs, heals and what not...looks good on paper...but not always as good out in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I'd call that example? A bad team.

Heroes have more synergy because they've got clearer rolls. People don't seem to know how to handle villains, they play Stalkers like Scrapper, Brutes like Tanks, Dominators like Controllers and Corrupters like Blasters. That's wrong as far as I'm concerned.

I've gone Dom/Dom/Corrupter (Grav/Psi, L24 was me, a a Grav/Nrg at about 31 Dark/Rad Corr at 26 odd) and dropped a Blaster/Empath duo from my SG. It was incredibly hard, we didn't have the burst damage, but soon as one of us hit Domination and locked down the Empath, the Blaster was easy.

You ask me to PvP on a Dom for months so I can better understand how they work or do not work? Sure, ok, while I'm doing that, PvP on a semi-regular basis for about a year on an Empath or a Blaster in a team and better understand how they have to perform their rolls. CM'ing 7 people and having no Mez protection yourself is hard. Being on a support heavy team and being the only real damage dealer is hard. Being a Dom and expecting to hold a buffed team, is hard, and a tad stupid. I mean, if you're stacking Domination that hard on a single target and they're not getting held, it means that they're popping a ton of BF's and that the Empath/Sonic is continuosly buffing them. You know what that means? They're probably not concentrating as much on the rest of the team, have the rest of your team drop the Empath while they're preoccupied, or a Blaster. Blasters are stupid squishy without CM or Fort in Sirens.

Going against higher numbers should be almost impossible to pull of as they SHOULD have better support. Dominator's need looking at because their solo survivability can be an issue if they lack the team support needed. No heal, lacklustre control and damage out of Domination.

How many Corr heavy teams you been on? Had a Therm, Kin and a Cold backing you up at the same time? That would give you so much survivability it's unreal. The argument hear seems that a balanced Hero team is unfair to a smaller villain team or a solo villain. Well, you know what? I'm scared of a balanced Villain team. I'm scared of being slow capped instantly by a */Cold corrupter and not being able to help me team, or being sonic caged, or being hit by something like Melt Armour and being anihilated.

Just because something seems unfair in Sirens Call (of all places) doesn't mean it needs a nerf, tweak, or balance. Sirens is a brilliant place for a handfull of AT's and powersets, Warburg is a lot more balanced and in the Arena at 50 it's a lot more fun IMO, even if the PPP's are pretty crud.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AFAIK there is no corruptor (or defender) buff in the game that increases the mag of control powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... my thoughts too, although you could buff recharge so it'd be easier to stack stuff..

[/ QUOTE ]

A defender's CM gives tank level protection, if your holds recharged instantly i dont think you could stack enough to hold a heavily CMd target.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, Thaw gave Hold Res. Holds are pretty redundant in Team PvP if both teams have good support. Goes for both sides, Red and Blue.

A Controller will find it hard to stack over a buffed target the same way a Dominator will, (1) only difference is, a Dominator should eventually hit Domination.

It seems that this argument is more concerned with the Mez protection of CM and Clarity, opposed to it's +Perc. Villains get protection from the most common kinds of Mez in Thaw. Quite why the Dev's decided to omit Fear and Confuse Res is beyond me, but I can probably count the amount of times someone has tried to confuse me in team PvP on one hand.

(2) Biggest problem I see is a Dominator's survivability solo , a Controller wins here. Same HP, near identical Primary (I don't want to get in to a Domination-vs-Duration/Critical Hold debate so don't start), but Debuff/Buff secondary trumps Assualt in 1-vs-1's. Dom's have to rely on teams for something as simple as a heal or debuffs. Controllers can do that solo.

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) And Domination WONT do squat.
Stack enough CM and/or BF's and they will just shrug off the holds...or it lasts so short its almost pointless.

(2) Not just solo but also within a full team.
Without any shields or major buffs, it takes ONE blaster ca 3 seconds to kill a dominator.
Yes...everyone on the team should look out for each other, buff up and all that...but when some of the hardest hitting damage dealers on the hero side decides to only go for the Dominator all the time, and waits patiently for the right time...the Dominator is gonna be wiped...fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem with either the Dominator or their Team imo. Hard to drop a buffed and healed squishy on either side if they know what they'e doing.

@Thundorn: Yup. Apart from some select circumstances, Big Team > Little Team.

Edit: Further to the Domination point, I've stacked over Sonic Dispersion and a BF quite easily. That's equivelant to just under two Tanks hold prot iirc. Give a Dom some buffs, some decent team support, it's fine. Use things like Frostwork for the +HP, big survivability bonus there. Throw in a Therm for heals, Thaw and the +Res. Make it at L50 and you've got a Dom at about 55-60% Resistance with more HP than a Blaster, not to shabby.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quite why the Dev's decided to omit Fear and Confuse Res is beyond me, but I can probably count the amount of times someone has tried to confuse me in team PvP on one hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously people use whatever works for them. I find confuse to be very useful against certain hero AT's in certain situations. I'm surprised you havent come up against it very often. If I though someone was CM'd though I wouldnt bother with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, other than Fear, not many Mez's are thrown around with much sincerity in hardcore team PvP that I've been in. When people are running perma mez protection, Hero or Villain, people tend to concentrate on Buff's and Debuff's as they're more reliable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AFAIK there is no corruptor (or defender) buff in the game that increases the mag of control powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... my thoughts too, although you could buff recharge so it'd be easier to stack stuff..

[/ QUOTE ]

A defender's CM gives tank level protection, if your holds recharged instantly i dont think you could stack enough to hold a heavily CMd target.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, Thaw gave Hold Res. Holds are pretty redundant in Team PvP if both teams have good support. Goes for both sides, Red and Blue.

A Controller will find it hard to stack over a buffed target the same way a Dominator will, only difference is, a Dominator should eventually hit Domination.

It seems that this argument is more concerned with the Mez protection of CM and Clarity, opposed to it's +Perc. Villains get protection from the most common kinds of Mez in Thaw. Quite why the Dev's decided to omit Fear and Confuse Res is beyond me, but I can probably count the amount of times someone has tried to confuse me in team PvP on one hand.

Biggest problem I see is a Dominator's survivability solo, a Controller wins here. Same HP, near identical Primary (I don't want to get in to a Domination-vs-Duration/Critical Hold debate so don't start), but Debuff/Buff secondary trumps Assualt in 1-vs-1's. Dom's have to rely on teams for something as simple as a heal or debuffs. Controllers can do that solo.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Likewise, if you can't hold the Blaster, have him killed/debuffed and hold the Empath/Sonic. Use things like Sonic Cage, Rad Infection, LR, Benumb etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

If the emp/sonic is also buffed?
I think a usefull solution as far as control powers go is to cap mezz protection and/or have a portion of the control power unresistable. It would be nice to have all those shields around, last few times I played my thermal I couldnt give buffs away for love nor money. And on my MM I had a stalker turn down my team invite even though it comes with GI :S

[/ QUOTE ]
If the Emp or Sonic is buffed, they're harder to take down. But then we're gettng in to the realm of the whole can a properly balanced team be taken down thing. Yes, but it's very hard.

Likewise a buffed up villain team, with a handfull of BF's (And all pvp'ers should carry some breakfrees at all times), is incredibly hard to take down.

I personally think that this apparent balance issue is more down to the players apparent social inability to team with them. It's easier to find teams from Heroes in a PvP zone, even if there's more Villains in the zone. That's a community problem, not a game problem. Villains have incredible team buffs, people just don't use them.

Yes, it's identical, but like Stalk said, not available in Sirens.

But I'm sick of people asking for Nerfs, go for power equality. Give Thaw everything CM has, bar maybe the +Perc as it's not really as much as an issue as it is for Heroes. Give one of the Ice shields +Perc (Ice Tank style) or Fear/Confuse Res or something.

Clear Mind is absolutely fine if your team also has buffs. So what if the heroes can see you Stalker? If they can't hit you, doesn't matter. Likewise, if you can't hold the Blaster, have him killed/debuffed and hold the Empath/Sonic. Use things like Sonic Cage, Rad Infection, LR, Benumb etc...

My Stalker can happily happily pvp against a team with an Empath in if I've a good thermal and a good cold corr on my team. Throw in a Sonic and we're good.

Sonic has Clarity, which is the same as Clear Mind. Even gives +Perc. So yes, villains have access to it.

Clear Mind is only unbalancing if the villain doesn't have a team.

Grab a Cold and/or a Thermal Corr and you're good/better equiped.