DustyFarrell

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Played M:TG recently sold my entire collection for a hella good price considering some of the cards I had.

Anyway I will say one thing. Sometimes even if your already having fun a victory or defeat can get to you.

I know more than once I survived a big fight with a sliver an literally cused in joy.

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Uh-oh. We better be careful. This thread could easily fall into an M:TG discussion.

For example, there was the red/white LD deck I made that wound up winning a world championship... Didn't get credit for it, naturally, but I was most certainly the inventor.

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Once again, I meant games in general. Console, PC, etc. You can't "win" most MMOs, so why would I go on about MMO victories? You made a general statement, so I replied to the general statement.

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lol

Okay,...

I thought I made it pretty clear. I play games, any and all kinds of games, for one reason only: to play. Winning and losing are equally meaningless. At that point, the game is over. I might be sad that I'm not playing, but I won't be sad that I've lost. I might be happy to start another game (or even repeat the one I just finished), but I won't be happy that I've won.

I played Magic: The Gathering for awhile. I was a constant tournament player (although decidely not a pro ) and participated in somewhere around three hundred tournaments, including a score of international ones.

I think I won somewhere around half a hundred matches in that time, and only a couple of tournaments, both minor. I'd have to log on to DCI and check.

I just enjoyed playing. I still enjoy playing. My favorite thing in life is play! I'm 44 years old and still prefer play to any other pastime imaginable. Yes, even that one. (Although making that one into play is quite fun, too. )

Winning? Losing?

What difference does that?

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Lord_Recluse

... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.

Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.

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"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.

Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)

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No and here is why you are wrong,...

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You can quote dictionaries all day long and it won't change common usage. Go back and reread the preface to your dictionary. Somewhere in there will be a clause about the dictionary presenting one possible set of definitions which may or may not reflect the reality of daily usage.

Sorry, daily usage > dictionary definition

Every responsible lexicographer knows this.

- Um, yes, sad though it may be, writing dictionaries is one of the things I do for a living. Well, not "writing", actually, but proofing. -

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...your just another body to kill...

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Yes! That right there! That is not PvP. That is sadism.

Your opponents are people. They have as much right to enjoy the game as you do. Players and NPCs are not the same.

I don't know about you personally, Maximum_charge, but lots of PvP fanatics will say they love PvP because "fighting NPC AIs is boring and predictable", and then will turn around and say something very similar to what I quoted above. Those kind of players almost always turn into griefers.

The first time a Stalker jumps a player it is not griefing. If that Stalker pursues that same player every time they enter the zone, repeatedly killing them just because they can, thus making it impossible for the player to complete their mission, get that badge, or even just spend time leveling on PvP zone NPC enemies, then it has become something else entirely.

That's when I call it griefing.

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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.

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That doesn't just go for competetive or PVP people, really. If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games? A gamer, of any preference, should believe their game victories have meaning to them (not to others).

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Um, yes, video game victories and/or successes mean nothing to me. They are no more meaningful than watching the latest episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I don't play to win. I play to play. I play to escape reality, relax, live in another world with different rules, and to participate in a ongoing fiction. I play games for the same reason I watch television. I prefer games because I can interact with the ongoing fiction rather just passively absorb it.

I play to play. Winning, losing, both are equally meaningless. I play to interact, which is why cowardly, unprovoked, griefing-style gameplay really makes me angry. It is rude, ill-mannered, and assumes my only purpose in the game is to provide another target.

I'm not a target. I'm a person. I invest my character with the same kind of emotional attachment I would invest the hero of any good story, regardless of the medium it is presented in. I don't exist in the game world to provide amusement for someone whose idea of success is to hide behind a keyboard half a world away and proclaim, "it's just a game!" every time they excercise the sadistic side of their personality.

Griefing objectifies the people the griefer shares the game world with. Griefing, as in unprovoked and cowardly attacks with no real purpose other than sadism, treats real players like NPCs.

I'm not talking about base raids, heroes attempting to "arrest" my villain, wars with rival villain groups, or any other form of straight-forward PvP. That kind of PvP can be enormously fun. Sadly, all it takes is one immature, egocentric player with too much free time and too little self-esteem to ruin a good PvP experience for hundreds of other players.

PvP isn't ruined by those who fight fairly and treat their opponents with respect. PvP is ruined by those who cheat, those who need to dominate in order to boost their flagging self-esteem, and those too cowardly to face the consequences of their actions.

PvP is ruined by children, especially children in adult bodies who really ought to know better.

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So your saying...

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Er, I'm not saying anything. I'm simply pointing out some technical problems with INTRUDER's insistence that "griefing" is misspelled.

For the record, my own definition is up above. Um, post #3912776.

In my own case, your example is meaningless because the only characters I'll be taking into the PvP zones will be villains and except for Siren's Call, you won't be able to attack me.

Now, if you stalk up behind me in Siren's Call and hit me with Assassin's Strike I'll be very angry, yes. So, you had better hope it lands and sends me packing with one shot, because if it doesn't, you'll find yourself repeatedly slammed into the ground and then knocked halfway across the zone.

I hope you enjoy ragdoll physics.

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I really hope it can be avoided altogether after CoV launches, while still allowing me to have my PvE experience.

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-grumble, grumble-

I'm not a big fan of PvP. In fact, I find it really boring. In my personal experience PvP in online games means guys (and a few gals, but well over 90% guys) running around trying to prove their manhood by beating up on other guys. When you lose, they gloat, preen, condescend, and otherwise seek to humiliate you. When you win, they scream, holler, acuse you of cheating, and write out long complaints to GMs trying to get you banned for harrassment.

Sorry, I don't get the fun aspect at all. For me, PvP is boring.

So it might come as a surprise to many of you that my favorite MMORPG is Lineage II, which is designed around FFA PvP (with "karma" to "control" griefing ). Not only that, but some of my best memories of Lineage II are related to PvP encounters. Of course, so are some of my worst.

Unfortunately, I was not able to participate in the CoH/CoV PvP beta event the other night. I live in Tokyo, so no beta invites for me, not even pre-order. As a result, I cannot say how fun it might or might not have been. All I have is the words people type in these forums and a couple screenshots. I will say this much, I am very happy that Stalkers do not appear to be as overpowered as I feared they might be. (Um, no, I am not "Pecos", and never even heard of him until I saw the poem in another thread. )

There is, however, one thing I would like to point out: the addition of CoV has always meant the addition of consensual PvP. Right from the very first press release.

That first press release and all that has followed is why I am here. For me, PvP is boring, but then, I've never once wanted to be a hero. CoV has been the only attraction Cryptic's products have had for me.

So I pre-ordered the day it became possible.
So I sit here impatiently waiting for my copy to arrive.
And so I intend to eventually wander into the PvP zones and see what CoV has to offer in that department as well.

It will probably be just as boring as PvP in Diablo, Quake, and Lineage II. Which means I will probably not bother entering the zones more than once each.

There is nothing wrong with those players who wish to avoid PvP. Got that? They are not weak, cowardly, ignorant, or "carebear". For some people PvP is boring, for others, it is exciting. Everything that has been offered up to date clearly states that no player will ever be required to engage in PvP in order to advance their game and enjoy their experience playing either a hero or a villain.

There is no reason to deny them that freedom.
There is no reason to assume it will change.

It is only natural that some rewards exist for winning at PvP. Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.

None of the stated rewards to date have been any more valuable than those available to PvE players, with one exception: stones of power for bases. Those are (as far as I know) only available by raiding other bases (which begs the question of how they will enter the game in the first place). However, any hero or villain group with a base is probably going to have some PvE only players and those players will still reap the rewards of the stones without engaging in PvP, unless their group leader requires it, which is not something Cryptic can be expected to control.

My long-winded point is this: Relax. If you don't enjoy PvP, you'll never have to experience it.

If you do enjoy PvP, then go right ahead, but please do not assume that someone who does not enjoy PvP is somehow beneath you. Neither enjoying PvP nor being bored by PvP grants a person greater status over another person who feels the opposite. It makes no difference at all. If you like it, great! If you don't like it, great!

So can we please stop arguing about it? PvP is here, it's in the game and it's been planned to be part of the game at least as long as CoV has, which probably means right from day one. If you don't want to engage in it, all current information indicates you won't ever be forced to.

The badges and accolades question is an interesting one. Perhaps, if you really want that particular badge or accolade, you can hire an escort or something. Time will tell, but I am certain something will get worked out.

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Lord_Recluse

... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.

Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.

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"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.

Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)

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ok, I have read alot of posts on these forums, and the same topic keeps comming up "preventing griefing". Fine, good thought, however, I would really like to know the definition of griefing, because it seems that everyone has a different definition, and many fights ensue because of it. So please give your definition of griefing on this thread so we can see what different people think.

Rheticus

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To interfere in my enjoyment of the game for no other reason than to be interfering.

It's called, "planned obsolesence".

A wonderful concept, really, when done well.