Doc_Phantom

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Irrelevant. No one player needs to play all blasters to SO levels do conduct a comparative test. The reason this is possible is because unlike yourself, who believes everyone should "try stuff out on their own to learn... like [you] had to.", others are willing to share information.

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If you would like to comment on my post on the top of page 37, to further the discussion on the original post, please do.

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Man, i feel sorry for Robinson, having to deal with all these nutjobs who just don't understand the the concept of using compairitive analysis and logical reasoning.

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Comparative analysis would require a thorough evaluation of the subject matter. To my knowledge, short of exploits, no one has played all the blaster combinations to a SO level. If it isn't obvious, I am including slot experimentation in comparison, which would be required also. Until that time, anyone posting a guide that speaks to each blaster's abilities is going to have some misunderstandings and misconceptions. If they aren't up for the challenge of defending their post, and more importantly... understanding their mistakes, they shouldn't have made it in the first place.

I've made mistakes in this thread. I have corrected the important ones and am learning.

Meanwhile, your post is just a faint echo of the entire peanut gallery. Feel free to stand with them... if you can find a seat. Watch out though, most are on fire or are carrying guns.

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Ok, what IS your point? Coming here and offering a 'trust me it can be done' build? Knowing people reading this thread would very likely ask for specifics AND still post a self proclaimed method without disclosing any finer points? It's a simple concept: you back up what your say with specific info and methods, how can you expect to convince anyone by overlapping your words?

This thread has the intent to let people know what mistakes/advantages others have gone through, so they won't fall into the same pit, or save themselve a few rerolls. Knowing that, and STILL bears the attitude of 'you guys will just have to go through it all....like I had to' doesn't put you on any credible stance nor impression.

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I do applaud your ability to read past posts. Some obviously aren't so able. Although I hope you didn't spend too much time doing all that, since it's of no relevance.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the same goal. I think I have provided more than enough options up to this point... at least 3 right? One of those options would allow you to use any secondary besides devices. Another used devices. Why do people have to know what I am using if I (and 1 other ice blaster) have given many options?

The most amusing thing, and probably secondary reason for me not saying up to this point... many have stated that I have a limited number of possibilities... I have stated one that I do not use (which actually will be more xp/hr for ice)... given what is left, how is everyone so blind? Does it really have to be spelled out? Is that the level of deductive reasoning the majority of people in this forum have?

To the guy above your post... this isn't about who levels faster anymore. I have conceded, in multiple posts over the last couple weeks, and now... that over the life of fire and ice, fire will be faster, and fire second to AR. Please read my latest post. It was the original discrepency, which has been twisted long ago into this farce. If you would like to argue any points in that, please do.

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...and apparently, no one replies, either. Man, in a decade on the Net, nothing has EVER changed.

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I don't think anyone can accuse me of not replying in this thread. Just because I don't want to discuss my exact tactics, it appears anything else I say is invalid. I have offered several options (ones I do not use, or at least not any longer) to accomplish the same result, which haven't been disputed. All this has only served to derail my original posts and purpose... maybe because they were valid points and changing the topic was the only recourse for some.

So... let's bring it home again and talk about the subject of the original post.

RSR made a guide about powerleveling. In this guide he outlines powers for all blaster types, not just fire and AR, as many have forgotten. It appears he was promoting powerleveling for all types and giving his opinion on the best way for each to do so. In his assesment, he claims that fire and AR are the only AOE blasters and that ice, energy, and electricity are all relegated to single targets. Because of this assessment, he advises that those 3 non-AOE blaster will make their best XP/hr on small groups of higher cons.

This is my whole problem and has been from the start. It is an invalid statement. The best xp/hr for any blaster involves taking out largish packs of lower or equal level mobs quicker than they can take out 2-3 higher cons, AOE if you will. So, any blaster able to do this can AOE.

I never claimed to have an uber build (although it was amusing to hear others refer to it as that), only that I was not best served, as an ice blaster, by choosing 2-3 minion/lt/boss groups to powerlevel. Again... the guide wasn't about pl'ing with only fire or AR, but in general.

Does Ice make more XP/hr taking on the same groups (or similar) that RSR advises for fire and AR than it would on groups that he advises for them? An emphatic yes.

Will ice level as quickly as fire over it's life? No. Will fire level as quickly as AR over it's life? No. Will electricity level as quickly as ice over it's life? No. And so on. That isn't the point anymore, despite those that change the topic to that constantly.

Was his assesment of energy as a single target vs group focus correct? I have no idea... he is the one with the 40 energy blaster, so I will have to believe him when he says it is. I know that, at least until they get explosive blast at 26, they will be better served as single target for xp/hr. Perhaps after a few slots in that, energy blasters should change gears. Until that point, Torrent does less dmg than needed, needs at least 3 casts (although quicker casts than ice) to kill the group, and knocks the group back... which on some maps could be a problem with other spawns. Not to mention a miss or 2 would result in you leaving a target or 2 behind the main group you keep pushing. But hey, maybe someone is making it work.

If anyone cares to discuss these points pertaining to the original guide and powerleveling, please do. Let's hope we can get away from the questions of what build I am using, what are my exact attacks, what I ate for lunch yesterday, and so on. Unfortunately, it appears that is what the majority of posters still want, despite saying otherwise.

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good post I was a bit shocked about the dislike to fire storm it's pretty usefull for those first lvls in perez the whole caltrop+fireball+firestorm=dead group lvld very fast in perez with that combo

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Woot!

Someone willing to try new stuff. An interesting note is that this would carry forward through most of the toon's life. Obviously, a fire blaster would have other options available soon after he levels out of PP (fire breath). An ice blaster would not have that new option, but could continue to use their version. Apparently, no one 6 slots the rains because they see 1s still after the first dmg slot addition (usually when at DO level). I seem to be one of the few posters who has. Most people also don't realize the dmg is still pretty good and blizzard gives so much more because it lasts 2x as long (with additional dmg).

Bravo for original thinking Ash.

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Lightning_fast:

Why did it take about 5 pages and a week before you'd finally admit you were AoE killing by using 2 frost breaths?


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Blindness still prevails. What post did you read?

I think I understand why people start cursing on forums now. No one reads. It appears unless you are telling someone how cool their build is, only every 18th word is read.

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Activation time for *frost breath* (not sure what ice breath is - my ice/ice blaster sure doesn't have it) is 3 seconds with a 16 second recharge. Activation time for SG is 2 seconds and 1 second for caltrops. Assuming you used the powers in the exact order you listed, SG + caltrops + frost breath + 2nd frost breath would take a total time of 16.7 seconds with hasten. Further, this is assuming you are using a +3 level recharge SO in frost breath. If you use caltrops after your first frost breath you'd save 1 second.

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Although only going further to prove my point of by picking on numbers (and the use of ice instead of frost), I will admit that your numbers seem fine. It was a hypothetical build based on what everyone expects an ice blaster to use. If I was off by a couple seconds, whatever... you obviously are ignoring the more important parts and picking on whatever fine points you can. Can't see the trees for the forest. Seems to be an epidimic.

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How can that be? Easy. We are playing the theory game, remember? You should as you were the one that started it.

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Actually, the original poster started it when he posted theories on blasters he hasn't experienced. I simply have picked on points about one of those blasters he hasn't played all the way up, and obviously not built for anything but single target damage/killing... since that is what he recommends.

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This is a thread to help others with quickly leveling a blaster. RSRobinson has created a helpful guide to help players. *snip* If you don't want to take part in that, then don't, but please stop derailing this thread.

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I guess my previous posts, saying I think his guide was helpful and only had grievences with some of his ice comments, were never read.

So... either agree whole heartedly with all his opinions or leave the thread? Don't bother to try and discuss discrepencies? I guess you are right... we certainly do have a shortage of fire/dev and ar/dev blasters in Paragon.

I propose we have a new definition for an AOE blaster. It may allay some of my concerns (and possibly others') and allow people to get back to their DPS spreadsheets:

AOE blaster - A blaster, who over the course of his life, will earn better XP using AOE powers than his single target powers, measured in XP/hr.

That allows you to draw a clear line in the sand. Beyond that, everyone can argue to their heart's content about DPS. Dare I mention my previous statements about where ice falls and how far down? Nah, no one has bothered reading it up to this point obviously.

Everyone is so concerned about what powers I use, in what order, and how I am doing it. That was never the point but has been the only concern of so many it scares me. The helpful points/facts/discussions have been so far buried in these crusades that it's actually all of these zealots derailing the original purpose.

Ok, I give up... I'm not above it all. I admit, I try and advise people when they are obviously far above my advice. Call it a character flaw. Could I let this thread go... no. Sadly. Too much misinformation and too many confused kids.

I have given 2 examples up to now. I know many people don't read and probably never saw them. Another Ice blaster (33) gave a possible solution. I'll give even one last one, a specific example based on everyone's desire for me to use 2 frost breaths. Heck, i'll even use exact numbers, since that seems to be more important than reality.

TV - 10 packs of lts, -1 level.
Full Time Haste (6 slotted rech)
Caltrops/smoke
Ice Breath (5 slotted dmg, 1 rech)
Ice Breath (same)

Since it's all about the numbers and not real game time... total battle time, including animations 13-14 seconds. All powers ready for recast upon reaching next group, usually 3-5 identical groups within a combat jump or 2.

Based on XP needed per level and xp/mob, you would have to kill about 170 groups at lvl 28 (or close). Taking a rather leisurely group/minute number of 2 (I like to stroll, maybe kill a missed mob or 2), it would take a grand total of 86 minutes to level. Say what? How can that be? Damnit, fire must be faster! By math, it is. RSR states that he could get AR down to that speed, even lower, but no way ice could get close. In fact, my original statement of 120 minutes of in-game time was obviously embellished according to RSR, despite it being almost 50% more time that my relaxed example above.

Since both fire and ice would use 2 attacks, a well slotted drone should make their statistical hit/miss rate identical (for the kids, that means we will both miss some over time that we have to cleanup or leave). I would belabor the chances of missing a guy or 2 with the cone, but I have given myself ample time to clean up by allowing myself 30 seconds per group (at least 10 seconds of non-travel time to cleanup... with 1 sec animation powers to do so with).

So what now? Obviously if everyone isn't leveling this fast or faster, it must be human error. Bad clicks, bad cone aim (happens to fire too... fire breath and all), grab a coke, hit the restroom, etc.

The problem is, you people are so hooked on the specifics and statistics, you can't even see the obvious. Is one going to level faster, sure, I have never argued that and even said that they would many times. In practical terms, is it really that much of a difference between some of them? No. But people aren't about practicality, it's all about decimal places.

And now the big one... which has been the commonality of my messages all along:

Can Ice be an efficient AOE blaster based on RSR's original post's mob criteria?

Ummm... yeah, of course.

P.S. I welcome any factual retorts, but I won't be checking the thread as often as I have. After all, I am a superhero and have to come back to fight injustices, even when the humans don't realize they need saving... hey... I feel like spiderman... thhhwwwbbbtt.

On that note, I think I'll take my leave of this thread and remove it from my favorites.

All the points I could make have been made.

RSR, feel free to pick apart my credibility, question my intent, accuse me of running away, whatever you feel like. Just know that everything you say along that line detracts from the focus of your original post. You will only do yourself and this thread a disservice, as even a few of my posts have. I've tried to not do it, but it's easy enough to get carried away.

Good luck to everyone out there. Don't be afraid to think for yourself!

Sadly, I am falling into the forum pit I really hate... having to reply to a post about topics already discussed, simply because someone posts inaccurate information in an attempt to disrepute someone elses posts. I understand from your post that you have been otherwise detained and may have not read my posts up to this point... so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

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Ice Storm won't do it.

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This is incorrect.

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It sounds like you are relying on some magic to get the mobs to just stand in the storm and do nothing while you run to the next pack. Hmmm, what could that be? Oh wait, Terra Volta, bugged spawns.

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I have said I don't use these spawns... they are slower XP regardless of the freakshows not moving pre-patch. They are not tightly bunched and involve killing a boss, sometimes 2. I have had to kill some that magically spawn at a point normally taken by my regular mobs.

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Good thing you got the 20s done before this patch which is supposed to have fixed all those spawns.

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Yes, the same patch that ammusingly made DA spawns harder for AOE blasters.

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And as for Dark Astoria having mobs weak to fire, well that's the whole point. Mobs weak to your attack is a good thing, and Ice not having any is just another strike against it.


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Actually, let me quote a previous post of yours:
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I'll stand by my definition. An AOE blaster is such because such a blaster has powers which are good enough to destroy packs, and don't require special weak packs that may get nerfed or may only be in a specific zone.

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So which is it... you want people to kill something that is only in a specific zone (AOE compliant DA Pantheons groups) and weak to you, or that is wrong and not a true AOE blaster? You should really pick one side to argue.


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The whole point of powerleveling is to get to 40 fast, not to try something random only to find it sucks and you've wasted many hours on a now-worthless character. The reason many people reas posts on powerleveling is that they do want to powerlevel, they don't have the time to experiment, they want to find something that works, something they know will get them to the higher levels in their limited playtime. It would be insane to take the advice of one poster who makes claims that goes against the experience of a lot of other experienced posters.

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Well, to the first point... why waste time on fire? AR is superior AOE to fire and even you have to admit this. If the true goal is "the fastest", then why offer the second fastest? Sure, fire is faster earlier... but those are the quick levels, right? Could it be you wanted to allow other options, but have a problem when someone else does also?

As for posts from "a lot of other experienced posters"... where? I haven't seen a lot of this. I have seen an abundance of posts asking questions and more about PvP, but it appears the bulk of experienced players (which are better than experienced posters imho) have not bothered much with this thread amazingly enough. There have been only a few.

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mysterious, 'trust me it can be done', kind of posts don't earn you any believability,

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Again, not to point out the obvious... but you, as the original poster, specifically talk about powerleveling to 40 with 2 builds you haven't taken to 40. Isn't that a tad bit of "trust me, it can be done"? I digress, as I don't think we should get into credibility discussions. They have no bearing on the actual topic.

Lastly, you mentioned something about not being solo. Interesting. What if I was? What if the numbers I posted involved a 2 man group? What if I wasn't, but could make better numbers than that by grouping? Is that a bad thing? If the true point is to powerlevel as quickly as possible, isn't legal xp/hr the most important value in the discussion? The end justifies the means... and all that rubbish?

That being said, I have duo'd and solo'd with the ice blaster. XP per hour is very close. It appears the increased speed at which I can kill due to buffs/debuffs is pretty much negated by the xp loss. But, it is more fun to duo with someone then grind solo, especially if you can talk over ventrilo at the same time. To each their own.

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I am a lvl 33 Ice Blaster and lightning fast is totaly capable of doing what he says at lvl 30.

*snip*

Edit - Just saw lightning fast is Ice/Device so going to retract the Shiver comment of mine I thought he was Ice/Ice. Still very doable on his part with Ice Storm Frostbreath just a little harder to keep them together over time.

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You shouldn't waste your breath (no pun intended). You are fighting a sea of FOTM fanboys. No one wants to think for themselves or try something that isn't what they have been told is "the fastest xper". Doesn't matter how you define AOE or powerleveling, it's all about conformity.

BTW, dev has caltrops also for slowing, and as long as they are tightly packed, it's not much worse than my controller's shiver on minions/lts near my lvl.

For the poster that commented on me being lvl 30 on my posts, actually the sig changes for all your posts as you update it, which I do every couple days as I sit here at work. So my first post in this thread was speaking for a lvl 14 or 16 ice blaster and now for a lvl 30.

I must be doing something right with AOE...

I have never used an exploit, nor fought nerfable mobs for xp/hr (and couldn't anymore regardless). It has been 17 days and I have a level 30 ice blaster and also leveled up an ar/dev to 16 in that time. I play a few hours a night, minus breaks and kid/wife interruptions.

One more suggestion to players... mess with your slots. If you are xp grinding and your attacks are doing more dmg than you actually need to kill, perhaps replacing a slot or 2 with something else could be advantageous. Maybe some recharge reductions would speed things up even further than just haste alone? Oh no... I can smell smoke... who's trying to think?

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The problem with flaming people who base their builds on those of other people is that no powers or slots are refundable. If you experiment you run the risk of wasting a power or slot choice. Knowing in advance what will and will not be advantageous is sensible not weak.

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I think there are plenty of posts about each and every individual power in the game. These are a good source of information for making informed decisions.

I think now, more than ever, it is almost impossible to mess up your build, as we can even pick up a few more powers now than we could yesterday.

Worst case:
In reference to powers, you may level slower and have to pick up a power later that you could have used earlier... but with a little searching in the forums, it should be rare.

In reference to slots, the most you can do is waste influence slotting the wrong stuff and have to replace them. By the time you are slotting DOs or SOs regularly, you can probably afford to play around with all 6 slots of a power, without causing yourself an monetary problem. I know I can now... probably even change slots on 2-3 powers. If you gave too many slots to something... not a big deal since we get plenty in the 30s.

And yes, overall, this thread has been pretty informative if you ignore the PvP sidetracking.

I agree... maybe a moderate dmg DOT rain, which still takes slows. Involves no changes except dmg for one power. Chances are that a change would never happen to the ice line. Not enough people play it.

Every day, Paragon City is starting to look more like a CS match. Sky raiders are the Ts and all the AR/dev blasters are the CTs. So much for superheroes.

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Point was that relying on a fear/minor dot is nothing compared to a simple two DD effect similar to FA, flamethrower, fireball/breath etc.

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I don't understand the statement. It may be "nothing" compared to the dmg from the other blaster's combos, but it casts quick and gets the same job done. If I can kill the mobs 1 time vs 1.5 times over, what is the actual resulting difference. None, they are dead just the same. If you start talking about red mobs vs white minions, then this would be an issue... but RSRobinson has clearly stated multiple times that whites/yellows should be the max con for safety reasons.

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And if you can find me a post of mine asking for an ice/energy build or slot recommendation for myself i'll give ya a cookie

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I would definately like that cookie and am tempted, but I doubt I would find anything. The first paragraph was directed at you... the rest was me blowing off steam at the cattle that we see mainly in the forums.

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ice storm is unaffected by BU/Aim and damage inspirations, and there are usually more important things to slot over a 10 second duration minor-cold dot, with hasten up you could have used two superior damage frost breaths in the duration it'd take storm to kill

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The buildup isn't for ice storm, and vs dual frost breaths, I don't have to stick around except to kill fb misses, if I choose to. Nor do I have to try and line up another cone. And, fyi, statements like that about slots is what perpertuates cookie cutter builds.

Long live the only true blasters, fire and assault!!!

Everyone make sure they post their builds as quickly as possible for others to comment. You don't want to think for yourself!

So funny.

His point is to not use mobs that are being, or will be, nerfed. Swarms/Monkeys fall into that category.

Also, I realize now that RSRobinson will most likely make a comment regarding attack powers and that I must be using ice breath twice, as he has many times before.

Since I would like to head that discussion off at the pass, let me give one combo (which I am not using, but know for a fact will work) that people can build on for killing -1/equal minion packs. Again... learn the combos for yourself and play around. It's a game, part of the fun is figuring this stuff out...

ice/non-devices:
buildup
frost breath
ice storm

If you argue that this combo, properly slotted, will not kill a pack outlined above, you simply have not had the experience of playing an ice blaster as an AOE xp'er. There are more 2/2.5 shot combos that will work. I used 2.5 because for devices, tossing a smoke or caltrops down is really nothing in grand scheme of time/group.

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If your numbers aren't exaggerated it seems you've found a good exp spot. However, I wonder how localized it is to Terra Volta.


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So you ask for numbers and then question the veracity of the number I give you, since you think it's too high? Interesting. "Honestly", my xp/hr has followed the curve along with the increase of xp/level, once I found a farmable area.

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You won't find anything like that post 30. Swarms/Monkeys are the equivelent and they are getting nerfed. Just like there is nothing as easy as zombies in Dark Astoria past 30, once swarms are gone.

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You and I both know this isn't true. XPing from non-bugged spawns in TV has nothing to do with Swarm/Monkey type problems. The only swarms I kill are the occasional one on the beach as I head back from the store to TV, since they are a 1 shot kill and I can keep moving.

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You again did not mention what you are fighting or how you are doing it. So again, I can only guess that you are using 2 Frost Breaths.

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Consider your statement disputed. I don't care for telling people my attacks because people can think for themselves. While you may enjoy making a guide and outlining this, I prefer not to see cookie cutter builds and would like people to try stuff out on their own to learn... like I had to. Powers, slots, etc. I don't talk about spawn points because I already have problems with people hunting in my areas and lowering my spawns regularly. Last thing I need is 5+ people messing me up. Perhaps when I am done with TV i'll talk about it. Then again, maybe people should just explore zones themselves instead of things being handed to them on a silver platter.

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So whatever mobs you are killing, Energy would do it faster. And no one tries to say that Energy is an AOE powerset.
*snip*
Are we all AOE blasters now? Is every blaster a fool for not
slotting their AOE as much as they can.

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Actually, I have said many times before, all blasters are AOE. As you move up the list of blasters, you get more AOE powers. All are single targets also, some just do it better. Are all blaster AT players fools for not slotting up their AOEs? Maybe, if that is the type of game they prefer and their blaster isn't on the lower end of the AOE blaster spectrum. Why not? So they may be a little slower than the blaster type above them on the list, they will still be able to solo-powerlevel the quickest as that build, more than someone focusing on the single-target attacks and groups.

I would suspect most players that take ice like to pick up the holds because they look cool for a blaster. That's great... it means they are having innocent fun, unlike powerlevelers. Others have probably been told that they are "single target semi-controllers" and should play it that way... then do. Either way, if you build a blaster with a single target focus, your AOE slots and powers are going to be minimal, thereby perpetuating the stereotype.

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I'll stand by my definition. An AOE blaster is such because such a blaster has powers which are good enough to destroy packs, and don't require special weak packs that may get nerfed or may only be in a specific zone. Fire and Assault rifle have the powers that there is no reason to suspect they will ever not be able to AOE exp.

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Actually, you have mentioned several times that you recommend DA Pantheons to AR and Fire blasters because Pantheons are vulnerable to fire and lethal. So, in effect, you are basing you powerleveling from 21-30 on a mob that is "weak" to your build, although not in the nerf catagory.

Conversly, I don't know of any cold vulnerable mobs in the game, especially not from 21 on. You spent a great deal of your post harping on the fact that I must be killing "weak" mobs, which I am not. I don't xp swarms, nor monkeys.

By your loose definition above, all blasters are AOE blasters.

Side note: Man, did you lock onto that swarm/monkey thing. It just came out of nowhere. I don't even know where you would find groups of swarms and the ones I have killed on the beaches of IP/TV (at least ones between TV and tech store) are minimal xp, alone, and not worth the time.

I think I am about done with this thread. I have made my points and the discussion is getting circular now. You can, and probably will, remain closed minded about fire and AR being the only AOE blasters. Hopefully someone is intrigued by my posts and is willing to try out other builds and see how well they can powerlevel.

Just remember everyone, just because a 40th level whatever writes a guide on powerleveling all builds, it doesn't mean he knows everything about those builds. In fact, he/she won't even know everything about their own build because of the variety possible with so many powers and so few power levels (which will change somewhat when a 50 cap). Also, with the amount of exploiting that has been going on the last few weeks, there are a ton of mid-30/40 toons that are run by players with no practical experience. I am not trying to infer RSRobinson did this, as I doubt he did based on the bulk of his posts. He is somewhat informed, others may not be despite a lvl 40 forum sig.

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So how quickly are you getting levels using your Ice AOE techniques? I can't imagine you are coming close to what Assault Rifle can do, and if you are getting better than a level in 2-3 hours, what you'd get with a single-target approach, I'll be impressed. But I am interested in what the best Ice can do is, so please give us your numbers.

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Rather than belabor spawns/attacks/etc... how about solid numbers.

Using hero logger to watch my xp, inf, xp/hr, I am getting around 80k an hour at 27. This includes usually 2 or 3 1.5 mile round-trip jaunts per hour to the store to sell when I have filled up with only DO/SO enhancements. Obviously it changes each level, moreso when I was too lazy at 26 to find a better spawn hunting ground. So, at 27, it would take me about 1.75 hours to level if I continue to sell. Each selling trip probably takes me 5 minutes total (from hunt site to IP's tech store and back) and is a great time for a smoke break. So, maybe 7-8 minutes total break every 20-30 minutes w/ that being 15 minutes per hour max and probably a little less in reality.

I am sure if I ignored drops, dropped my filthy habit, and ignored when the kid wakes up crying, I could lower that to 1.5 hours. As it is now, I plan on about 2 hours per level, so that I have some flex time and be happy when it takes less.

Single target hunting is quite a bit slower xp/hr. I ran the bridge a few times w/ it's sparse spawns and tried the entire west and east walls. Luckily the somewhat irregular boss makes up for a really slow period with his 450-550 xp... but not enough to make a substantial difference. I also spent a lot of time running missions again to see the numbers. With the hero logger setup with a on-top last 5 minutes xp/hr tab, it's easy to see what areas/groups/mobs are good or bad within 15 minutes. If you don't have it yet, I would suggest giving it a run, for at least the 10 day trial. If nothing else, once you find your ideal hunting grounds, the voice-from-text announcements of enh/insp drops are very helpful.

So, say what you will, I don't think I am far behind fire if any for speed. I already stated that AR would outpace Ice (and Fire) by this level. I still maintain that I am a valid AOE blaster... although, I may be on the edge of what is acceptable, and the bottom AOE choice if energy is as bad as you say at AOE. Not having experience with one that was planned to AOE from the get-go, I can't make a reasonable assesment.

EDIT: I am not saying Ice cannot be built as a single-target blaster, but I didn't bother with the holds since freezing a minion in a group of 10-12 is a waste of a power. Also, to repsond to a recent snipe side-comment someone made, BIB w/ 6 dmg SOs single shots an equal minion, so I don't think I am missing much with snipe. A blast/bolt on a second (with bolt only having 3 slots) equal death also... all in 3 seconds. Just trying to let others know that Ice missing a snipe doesn't seem to be a huge issue, unless I am hitting an lt or boss... but then again, I can continue to cast it during a fight without interruption.

RSRobinson,

Well, you told me before that I didn't know how mobs scaled and that my experiences of my ice blaster by 16 would change at higher levels.

You were correct.

Now, you weren't correct about things getting harder. Actually they have become much easier. Now that I had time to slot stuff more and get a new power or 2, I am able to kill more efficiently... and have better options of what I choose to AOE kill. Also, as we would expect, stamina and health have lowered downtime between groups to nothing.

Sure, I had cold resistance issues when I hit 21 and DA... but I just lvled quickly on Argos Highway in Talos until 23 and hit TV. I don't even go for bugged spawns in TV as they aren't the ideal for the best xp/hr.

So, now I am 27.5 and still waiting to see when things are going to change. At what point will I not be able to use my caltrops + 2 attack combo to kill groups? Please tell me that I just have to level higher to understand... it worked so well last time.

Again, I will state "Ice can AOE". Again, I will state that AOE abilities diminish through the list of: AR/Fire/Ice/Energy/Elec, and that Ice is still a viable -1/equal minion AOE'r. I never said I could level faster than the 2 above me, but I still think that I can level almost as quickly as fire, based on your criteria. Ice/Fire can definately level faster than AR up to 21, way faster. I would suspect that if we evaluated time/toon, that AR would catch my level by 26-28 and then speed ahead... way ahead starting at 33.

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My Ice/energy is 36. I have 4 char's post 31. I have access to 2 other accounts with lots of other post 30 chars.

*snip*

I have more, and have acces to even more end game characters than you will most likely realize in the next year. Do not ascertain to that with which you have no idea of.....

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As a poster in this thread, long before it went this far off topic, I would request that if we are not going to keep it on topic... can we carry this on in the COV forum. This is where this discussion belongs.

The only discussion about powerleveling involves the above quote, which only shows me that someone (and his group) has spent some time using the exploit that is being patched. Tisk Tisk. This thread was never about exploits. We could all have toons in the 30s quickly if we wanted to cheat. Of course this is completely lame, since it means nothing until PvP. You didn't even get a powerleveling high. Sad.

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Lightning_Fast, it isn't being closed minded to admit that fire and assault rifle are simply better powerlevelers than are the single-target power sets. Its really indisputable fact. Ice, Electricity, and Energy all kill in a similar fashion so it is best to compare them. My point was that we should avoid ringing in Fire or Assault Rifle as a red hearing to make Electricity look bad, to compare it to its peer power sets and show that it still comes up short.


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Let me try and resolve this, although I doubt any single post will at this point.

You stipulated your ideal goal of powerleveling by identifing target groups of minions you should be killing at both low and high levels. You further state that the goal is to 2 shot them and move on. This would allow the quickest XP. Agreed so far?

I agree that AR is the best for this at later levels. Fire can do the same after lvl 11 or so, once you can 5/6 slot up both AOE attacks and fill them with dmg DOs. Still ok?

Now, my issue was that you claimed ice is a single-target blaster, along with energy and elec. My counter-point is that each blaster has a varying level of AOE ability and I had listed the descending order of those types: AR, Fire, Ice, Energy, Elec. As you go down the list, each type has less AOE ability and therefore has less chance of clearing out large groups and having to focus on smaller groups, therefore earning XP at a slower rate. So, in the grand scheme of things, choosing anything but ar/dev would be a waste... unless you put criteria on optimal target groups for grinding... which you did.

Based on your criteria, Ice is able to perform the needed 2-attack combo, in order to kill a group and move on within a sub-5 second time. If you want to increase your criteria, feel free. I would have no choice but to agree with you, but would definately make the point that as the criteria increases, you would be a fool not to play ar/dev... as it gives you the maximum possible AOE dmg for the maximum possible criteria. Luckily, people like different animations, sounds, etc and want to play different primaries. I am stating that Ice still is a valid powerleveling blaster with good AOE abilities, which can powerlevel at almost identical speed as AR/Fire, provided you do not diverge from the -1/equal criteria.

Quick note though... please don't repeat any statements regarding my levels or experience. You simply don't know. I remained completely quiet about the fact you are giving advice on fire/ar powerleveling but actually just have a 26 AR and 40 energy. I would suspect you don't also have 35-40 fire/ice/elec/ar blasters, but I didn't discount your post, telling you to actually play them. I ask you to afford me the same respect.

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So, please, instead of insisting I don't know what I am talking about, explain exactly why you think that electricity will powerlevel as fast as energy or ice. (It is a given that all 3 are inferior to fire/assault rifle so we can just ignore them in the discussion).

[/ QUOTE ]

What was that? Did I just hear the creaking of a mind closing? Yup.

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Gee, I can't read. Maybe you shouldn't have said anything about Fire not being AOE then. I don't see any other blaster with pure AOE in the primaries. Forget it, I lost all respect after I read your "no worries about melee mobs after level 10!" Did I read wrong here too? Gonna tell me to try hooked on phonics next? Too funny man. Get to level 40 and then tell me what you have learned. Too many players make assumptions on their low level heroes and then generalize that this is the way it is and the way it's gonna be.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I never said fire wasn't AOE. I said fire breath is not a unique power to fire by saying it is not a defining power to call fire an AOE build over some others. Fire Ball would be that defining power. That is unique compared to something like Ice, which does not have this type of power.

Also, I never said "no worries about melee mobs after 10". So, yes, you did read wrong. Maybe your habit of quoting from multiple sources has confused who said what in your mind. No biggie, but as I said before... you aren't reading (at least not correctly).

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A guy with this many alts tells me to calm down and live a little. LMAO. If I see an incorrect post, I correct it. Nothing gets me like people who don't know what they are talking about and then try to preach it to others. Point made, conversation over.

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Trust me, I have more alts, these are just my active ones. You also have no idea if I have had any toons reach 35+. I don't understand your negative point as to my number of toons. You obviously didn't understand that I am not married to any one of them in particular, where most people are and will defend it, regardless of the facts or circumstances. Nothing in my post has been incorrect. But I suspect you will continue to read what you want and twist whatever I say to argue your point.

If you care to contribute to the conversation by reading posts and discussing the points, please do.

[ QUOTE ]
Lightning_Fast, you say you can 2-shot equal minion groups. Fantastic. so you use one shot for Frost Breath, and the second shot for... Ice does not have a second AOE. Ice Storm? It will not do enough damage, its barely passable when you get it and it declines a whole lot over time (relative to mob hit points). I see from your sig that you are a level 16 ice blaster. Its just not the same in the 20s and the 30s. Ice does not have a second AOE to follow up with.

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Actually, I stated that I could kill -1 groups with 2 casts (totalling about 3 seconds of animation, after lining up the cone). I also said a build containing build-up could do equals, simply extracting the fact that equals have 10-20% left without... so buildup should more than make that up. I know that if someone casts EV for me, I can 2 shot equals, and buildup is more dmg. Aim might be close in comparison and would allow the removal of a rad caster to tag along in this particular instance. Meanwhile, it's easier for me to just do -1's when solo.

[ QUOTE ]
Ice and Energy just are not cut out for AOEing. If you want AOEs, go for the power sets that specialize in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you consider AR just as powerful as fire for powerleveling? If so, tell me what is the difference in killing your target groups in the 30s between AR and Ice. Please compare powers needed to complete an equal lvl group of minions.

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Don't judge everything by the hero planner. Not all 'moderate' damage is the same. *snip* And Explosive Blast does a little less damage than does Energy Torrent. The labels don't really help you, you need to go out and use the powers or get advice from people who have.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, I have played all to a reasonable level, except energy... which I clearly stated I was basically unknown to me.

On a side note:
Do you think the toons listed below are my only toons? Do you think I don't have any at a higher levels that I just don't enjoy playing anymore? Why do you assume that I have not played at the 30s-40 level and therefore all my statements are uninformed/ignorant/without-merit?

Yes, there is a perfect build for solo powerleveling. There are also builds that are close in speed and may or may not be more enjoyable for a player. I am simply trying to show those other build's strengths relative to each other. I'm not trying to dismiss other builds, but offer other powerleveling options by showing that Ice is not disadvantaged in typical scenarios, contrary to your post.

BTW RSRobinson, despite my dispute over the abilities of ice, I agree with the rest of what you wrote... like you care...

Unless something new is contributed (instead of the off-topic sludge going on), I would like to close with this final piece of info:

AOE build primaries, from best to worse:
Assault Rifle
Fire
Ice
Energy
Electricity

While I did put Fire before Ice, simply because of the fire ball, I don't think there is a huge difference in killing speed based on Mr. Robinson's guide of decent sized blue -> yellow minion packs. I do think, based on this latest info about energy (which I still admit to having almost no experience with), there is a huge fall off of AOE ability between Ice and Energy. I know Lightning Fast, elec/elec, was never anywhere near to a multi-target blaster.