Darkaj

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Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.

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With my mind/psi, I can take out a red-conned Ballista, solo, without using a single inspiration.

IMO, that does not suggest "underpowered".

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Just as a point of reference, my Stalker can solo a purple-conning boss of any type. Also, I bet your dom had to be level 39, with slotted-out psy shockwave, before it was able to solo even a red-conning boss. I think that most doms that make it to level 40 probably have an acceptable level of damage for soloing, but why do they have to wait that long to do what other ATs can do at much lower levels?

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The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.

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No, it's not. The purple triangles artifically limit what one archetype is capable of.

Would it be 'fair' if the purple triangles prevented debuffs or criticals while they were up?
Would it still be a magnifying glass to show what corruptors and stalkers were capable of?

No, it wouldn't.

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The problem for doms is that control is binary -- it either doesn't work at all, or it works 100% to completely negate the mob. In this sense, the RSF does reveal a design flaw in the Dominator. With control being binary, the only way to create a challenge is to make control so that it cannot be perma'd and does not affect the hardest mobs. If control could be perma'd, or if it did affect the hardest mobs, then fights would be trivial. I think the devs think stacked debuffs are OK, because it makes AVs killable while still preserving at least the illusion that a dangerous battle is taking place. For example, a debuffed AV can still fight, and might even land a hit and stun that corr, dropping all the toggles -- whereas the AV can't land a hit at all if held. If an AV is held, there isn't even the appearance of risk.

Some other things to consider in the comparison -- Snow Storm is autohit, which is hugely important when you're talking about hitting +4 Heroes. Also, Sleet debuffs resistance heavily. And Infridgidate has a -def that makes all other powers hit much better. And you completely ignored Benumb, which is probably the single best anti-AV power in the game. If you are comparing /psi to /cold and saying which would be more useful on the recluse, you have to look at everything /cold can do.

Corruptors are outstanding on teams because their buffs and debuffs can stack. Solo, the average corr probably isn't any better than a level 40 dom, and corrs solo worse than MMs, Brutes, or Stalkers.

The devs don't seem to be too concerned with toons that perform extremely well on teams. I guess that's because they want to encourage teaming. They probably feel that the relative weakness of corrs for soloing compensates for their uberness on teams.

The corr attack powers have debuff effects, and so do the dom attack powers. For example, all Sonic attacks debuff resistance. I don't know whether corr or dom attack debuffs are stronger, but since these are all secondary effects of powers that are basically attacks, let's assume that they about average out. (Actually, from playing corrs and doms, it seems to me that the debuff effects of the corr attacks are much more noticeable than the dom attacks, but let's assume for purposes of this discussion that they are equal).

That leaves us comparing the actual (non-attack) debuffs. Other than the attack powers, Doms only have one power in one set (that I'm aware of) that is a debuff to resistance, defense, or regen, and that is Drain Psyche. Corrs have far more debuff powers. It's not even close.

Even if doms did in fact have debuffs that were equal to what corrs can do, teams would still pick corrs over doms because corrs can heal, buff, and rezz, as well as do more damage. It's just that the debuffing aspect is particularly important to the Recluse.

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The /psi attacks also have a slight debuff effect.

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It's not slight. Psi has powerful recharge debuffs, at least as good as Ice Blast. Only Cold Domination has significantly better -rech than Psionic Assault. Oh, and that's only from the secondary. Like corruptors, many dominators also have significant debuffs in their primaries, like slow in Gravity and Ice. You're showing bias again.

EDIT: Good point, Tez!

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If you compare the debuff effects in the corr attacks against the debuff effects in the dom attacks, it is at best a wash. That leaves you with one power -- Drain Psyche -- that one dom set has, that would be a valuable debuff on the Recluse. Compare that to the numerous debuffs that a debuffing corr such as /rad or /cold or /dark has, and you can see that /psi doms cannot compare to corrs for debuffing ability. Not to mention buffing, healing, rezzing, and nuking.

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As for the damage aspect of it, some of the debuffs that are most important on the TF are defense, resistance, and regen.

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Many dominators (e.g., practically all /psi doms) have a very strong regeneration and recovery debuff. If you also consider defense, many dominators (e.g., all psi and ice doms) have strong recharge debuffs.

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Let's compare a /psi dom to a /rad corr. The /psi dom has one power, Drain Psyche, that will halt regen for a while. The /psi attacks also have a slight debuff effect. The /rad corr has an aoe power, Lingering Radiation, that stops regen for as long as Drain Psyche and also has a powerful slow. The rad corr also has an auto-hit aoe defense/tohit debuff and an auto-hit aoe resistance debuff. The rad corr also has a buff that increases team recharge and end gain, and a heal. The rad corr also has an aoe disorient with a huge range. The rad corr also has a rez that can put a team member back into the fight at full health and strength. And (very handy for the Recluse) a rad corr has a power that deals massive destruction when the toon gets killed. And that's all just from the secondary. The corr primaries also have debuff effects -- for example, Sonic debuffs resistance. That's in addition to their higher damage.

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I wonder if 2 Brutes and 5 Dominators could mitigate enough of the Damage while doing enough to complete the TF.

How may holds does it take to to hold all of the AVs. Holds are the key to Hammi. What if the team was 6 Doms and 2 kin or Rad Corruptors. 6 AOE holds and each man focusing on a ST might hold all the AVs the whole time, but could they do enough damage?

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We don't know how many stacked holds it takes to hold any of the Heroes with triangles up (triangles are up a minimum of 2/3 of the time, some people have reported more). No one has reported being able to use an ST hold to hold even 1 of the level 54 Heros through triangles. Sleeps might work -- but corrs have sleeps too.

As for the damage aspect of it, some of the debuffs that are most important on the TF are defense, resistance, and regen. Those make the Heroes easier to hit and take more damage, and also gain health back slower, so that much less damage is needed to kill them. Corr buffs can also help the Brutes hit the damage cap. A capped aoe Foot Stomp is an awesome thing to see.

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But it is sad to agree with the fact that after the 4th mish , and with out the log trick and the temp power( im not saying which) for single pulls, the 5th mish is damn near impoosible for teams with more than one stalker or dom on it.

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Yeah, what you are reporting is pretty much what everyone else is reporting who has actually done the TF and succeeded without the cheat -- that it is extremely difficult to succeed if more than 1 spot is taken up by a dom or Stalker.

Doms can, as you say, contribute to a Recluse team. The problem is that, without the damage and aggro management of 2 Brutes, and the debuffing of 5 corrs/MMs, it's virtually impossible to kill the heroes before they wipe the team. That means that there is, even on an otherwise ideal team, only one spot that can be spared for a dom or stalker.

Also, now that the cheat for hero levels has been fixed, I'm wondering how long the temporary power pull is going to last. People aren't mentioning the power, but I'm sure the devs can datamine to find out, if they don't know already. It's too bad -- if there were a way to pull 1 or 2 heroes at a time, then a team could succeed without having to have 2 Brutes and 5 debuffers.

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That would be pointless, since I've read many such posts, and I draw different conclusions. I also know a few stalker & dominator players who've been on successful RSFs. That's why I asked you to actually cite your sources, so that I can see why your impressions differ from mine. Why do you refuse to back up your claims with sources and facts?

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Keep in mind that the patch that took away the cheat was just instituted. That means that teams can now spare at most one "charity" slot for a Stalker or dom.

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Those aren't citations and facts. They're paraphrases of opinions. Why do you expect that to convince me? Even setting aside the fact that I don't trust your ability to paraphrase, it's still a lousy source. Try supporting your arguments with facts rather than vague and biased accounts of popular opinion.

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean -- I'm not asking you to believe me -- I suggested that you do a search on the forums on "Recluse" and see what people have to say, in their own words, who have actually completed the TF many times.

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Nice, 515A. Instead of moving the goalposts again, how about you actually back up your claims with citations and facts?

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If you are interested in reading the experiences of people who have actually done the Recluse multiple times, I suggest you enter the term "Recluse" in the search engine and check out the search results. The bug that allowed the 8 heroes to spawn at a lower level has been fixed, and the consensus is that, to do the TF without the bug, the ideal team is 2 Brutes and at least 5 corrs.

Really, the only hope for sub-optimal teams to be able to complete it is if someone finds a way to pull 1 or 2 of the level 54 heroes at a time in the last mission. One person reported that his teams have had success with pulling, but so far I have not seen any reports of anyone emulating their success. There is also supposedly a way to pull using a temporary power, but if that does work, it is probably a bug that will get squashed soon. Unless and until breaking up the 8 heroes is possible, it looks like 2 Brutes and 5-6 corrs (some of the corrs can be replaced by debuffing MMs) is still the gold standard. Doms and Stalkers are relegated to the charity 8th spot, on the teams that even willing to take them.

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How about you actually point out the post so that we can judge whether they struggled because of the doms, the builds, or the players? Or so that we can judge whether the guy is even credible?

And I know the first team didn't have a dom. My point is that they said they wanted one. C'mon, you aren't even trying to put up a reasonable argument anymore.

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Bradd, are you arguing that doms are just as good as corrs and Brutes on the TF? If so, you could prove your point by getting together a team with 4 or 5 doms and successfully completing the TF . . .

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IIRC, the first VG to beat the RSF said they'd like dominators on their team, while you were claiming otherwise.

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Unfortunately, the ideal team for the Recluse is still corrs, Brutes, and MMs. You might want to look up a recent post by a guy who has done the TF numerous times and who reported that a team he was on with 2 doms had to use the cheat (that makes the heroes spawn at a lower level) to even finish the TF, whereas the standard teams he was on of corrs, Brutes and MMs finished the TF with no problem without using the cheat.

Also, just to clarify, the first team to beat the TF did not have a dom on the team. That VG later finished the TF with 1 dom. It's becoming clear that a team of 5 corrs and 2 Brutes can spare one "charity" spot.

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Just because the forum clique agrees on something and writes it in there, doesn't mean the other 99% of the playerbase automatically feels that way, or even a majority.

The truth is it's useless trying to argue with this forum's clique, so I don't even read or participate with that thread. What is the point? We will just get responses like yours in this thread.

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I think there is a big difference in perception between the people who belong to the top VGs on the one hand, and the people who play solo/PuGs on the other. Most people in the former group think that doms have some issues that need to be addressed as to their effectiveness on teams *compared to other ATs.* They don't necessary think that doms are gimped, or that doms suck, but they do think that doms bring substantially less to a large team than corrs, MMs or Brutes at any rate. The second group doesn't really see the problem, either because they don't have that much experience with other ATs or because they are not playing on the kind of teams where the differences show up so starkly.

I am fine with people having different perceptions of the AT, but I think it's too bad that the people who support doms sometimes seem to feel so beleaguered that they resort to insults and invective.

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My issues with Doms are the slow start for the first 20-30 levels and the weak team contribution for a class whose PRIMARY is support. And, as much as I like the change, it doesn't seem to fix that at all.

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I agree with this, but you mentioned in another post, I believe, that you could play your Dominator "effectively" on a team with Domination up or without it. Do you feel that doms can contribute their fair share on a team if played properly, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?

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I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22.

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My Fire/Ice dom is level 22, and at this point I'm hardly using my melee attacks even though I only have 2 blast powers. I find that the melee attacks just slow me down.

My technique soloing is to use TP Foe to pull a mob to me, then I spam Char, Ice Bolt, and Ice Blast until the mob is dead. By the time the first mob is dead, TP Foe is up again and I tp the next one. If I get 2 of the 3, or all three, aggroed, I have to use Char to hold the others and so can't use it as part of my attack chain on the mob I'm attacking. That's the only time I use Air Superiority or Ice Sword.

This method allows me to go through a mission constantly attacking, so that I build domination fast, and yet I take almost no damage. An added benefit is that I also don't run dry on end, even though Stamina just has 1 DO in it now. (Each blast power has 1 DO end red). I can either pop Domination pretty much every time it's up, and during it's duration I can mow through a couple groups without pulling, or I can save Domination for the last room. Right now I'm still on Villainous, but think I could go to Vicious easily.

So, I don't think that melee is the only way to play. It's certainly one option, but I have found that Ice Sword just slows me down because of its end usage. Also, the animations of Ice Sword and Air Sup, while they seem pretty fast, are actually slow enough to slow down my attack chain when I use them as part of the regular chain. My chain of Char, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast has a couple of short gaps, but not enough to fit one of the melee powers in, and those gaps should go away once I get Stamina slotted out and then swap out the end red in my blasts for an SO recharge.

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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles.

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You -are- aware that triangles don't make an AV harder to lock down, right? They only represent how much resistance the AV already has/has left.

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Heh -- whatever they represent, the triangles do indeed make an AV much, much harder to lock down when they are in the "up" phase.

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Can a corr do an AoE sleep,

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I really don't think a corr would bother with an aoe sleep, because Brutes and MMs and corrs all have aoe attacks, and sleeps are going to be broken almost as soon as they are applied. They just aren't a realistic control option on a large team.

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drop a +Regen patch,

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Are you referring to Spirit Tree? Lots of Plant/ doms don't even take that because it's immobile and slow-acting. Corrs don't need an immobile heal because they can heal on the fly.

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AoE confuse,

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Plant's aoe confuse is a great power -- it's comparable in usefulness to Mind's Terrify. Again, though, it's only 1 power. Mind's aoe confuse is only available about every third fight.

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AoE hold,

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The aoe hold is great, for the every third battle or so that it's actually up. A team cannot rely on the aoe holds because they are so rarely available. Compare with a corr's debuffs, which are available for every fight, and usually for the entire battle.

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drop a aggro distracting pet with knockdown?

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Pets are nice, but compare them with the corr's level 32 power, which is a nuke, or the Brute's 32 powers, which include Foot Stomp, for example. Also, mind/ doesn't get a pet -- just the aoe confuse you already mentioned.

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Doms have a much bigger bag of tricks. hell 3 doms on an 8 man team is total lockdown.

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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles. And for non-Av teams, compare 3 doms to 3 corrs. The corr debuffs can stack and make the mobs about as dangerous as kittens while also making them much easier and faster to kill -- and the corrs can do a lot of the killing themselves (remember the nukes). and the corrs can buff and heal too. Also, MMs with /dark or /poison secondary can do many of the same buffs/debuffs as a corr.

Again, I'm not saying that a dom brings *nothing* to a team. it's just that I can't think of any reason at all, as a team leader, to take a dom over a corr, Brute, or MM.

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On large teams, I'm the difference maker. My problems are in the solo game, occasionally. Large teams are easy. I practically do the same thing every time opening up.

Mind/Psi? Easiest job in the world. Mass Hypno, Terrify. Who cares about aggro when they're scared, debuffed, and if they're not 2 of those, they're bloody sleeping. The team lets loose with little fear of getting hit back. Then I jump into the chaos, spamming the hell out of Psy Shockwave (my favorite power EVER...even more than Fulcrum Shift...yeah, I said it!), and dealing with bosses (locking them up with ST controls)and billy badass minions and leuts with delusions of grandeur (yeah, Sappers, Nullifiers--I'm talking to you!). By the time this is all done, the rest of your large team pats themselves on the back for SMASHING, blasting, and healing...if it goes to hell, pop Mass Confusion and run for your life, Charlie Brown. When the dust settles, no one realizes that you, the Dominator, made life a whole lot easier.

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Yes, but /dark corrs have Terrify too, and they do great damage from level 1, not just at level 39 after the 38 power is slotted out. And they can heal, and debuff.

I see some people saying "my dom does great on large teams," but it doesn't matter if a dom does its job well, if another AT can do that same job and a lot more besides.

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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo.

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I can see how that could be a perception except many people on this board, including myself, do alright to good to fantastic on a team. So, I guess I will ask this question where does that leave us? If someone says that they do good on a team are they lying? If they aren't lying then what is different about their experience/build/playstyle that varies so greatly from yours?

I freely admit I solo a lot but I also play on teams a lot. I can and do contribute on a team. So what is different about my experience from yours other than the fact that you haven't had good experiences on teams and I have.

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I think it has to do with the type of team, really. Doms can "contribute" to a team, there is no doubt about that. Especially a Plant/ dom, or an Ice/ dom that is specced for control. So, if you are on a casual team that is doing regular missions, and the team is good, the dom can fit in and participate just fine -- altho many doms find that they die a lot on large teams due to aggro.

It's a different story when you are on large teams that are doing a lot of AV missions or TFs. Those types of missions are hard enough that it pays to min-max. Also, a lot of people like to min-max just because they are perfectionists and they like to do missions as quickly and cleanly as they can -- they take pride in doing the job the best way possible. For that kind of team, the dom just doesn't pull it's weight. Doms are helpless against almost all the AVs from level 30 or so up. A Recluse SF might take 1 dom along, but I've not heard so far of any Recluse TF succeeding with more than 1 dom. Also, in order to get Shivans, Nukes, etc. for the Recluse, most VGs are doing a lot of raids in PvP zones, and doms are just pretty much dead weight on those teams.

You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo. If a person solos and they like their toon, then that's really all that's important to them and they're going to be surprised when they see other people criticizing doms and saying they don't measure up.

The issue, as I see it, is on big teams. On big teams the measure of whether a toon is OK or not is no longer the individual person's satisfaction with the toon -- like it is when soloing -- the measure of effectiveness on a big team is whether the toon can pull it's weight compared to what other toons can do.

So, yes, anyone who mostly soloes is probably going to have a tendency to tell anyone who isn't satisfied with doms to "find another AT," because they way they look at it, the individual player being happy with the toon is all that matters.

For someone like me, who is part of a big VG that has a bunch of people raising toons to 50 on large teams, and that has a team doing the Recluse SF several times a week, I have to be more concerned about how my toon measures up compared to other toons.

I really think this difference is one of the main reasons people have such different ideas about doms -- we are talking about completely different ways of measuring effectiveness.

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B/c "self-proclaimed uber dom" has the implication of elitism and snobishness and it was in comparison to "lazy incompetent noobs" not "pro-doms". Both are rude and both counter productive.

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Well, it's interesting to note that the "uber dom" post that you object to was made *after* the "lazy incompetent noob" post -- as was the post mentioning "pro dom."

Perhaps -- just perhaps -- if that person who called everyone who doesn't adore doms "lazy incompetent noobs" had not made such a rude and insulting post, then the guy who posted about "self-proclaimed uber doms" would not have made his post either.

Hey, if you walk up and kick sand in someone's face, don't expect a pleasant hello.

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And you wonder why I call you people pro dom's.

You completly discount anyone who doesnt agree with you.

I usually dont like to let my posts degrade to insults but this is going too far.

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A quote by KombatJesus:

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What do you get when you throw in some intelligent and vocal players who really know how to play the game With people who are earnestly trying to learn the AT With some lazy incompetent noobs who try at every turn to down toe AT and it's fanbase to get the AT molded in their own image and likeness?

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A quote by xxxxx:

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That's because there are several self proclaimed uber-doms who quickly drop into insult mode and tear down anyone who says anything about doms needing any kind of change. Not naming any names but some people really flip out when anyone suggests doms aren't perfect.

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All emphasis mine. Am I the only one that finds these posts eerily similar?

Nobody named names. Doesn't matter; in the blame game, everyone is equal!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled self-righteous pissing contest.

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I'm afraid I don't see the similarity. How is using the terms "pro dom" and "uber dom" in any way equivalent to calling people "lazy incompetent noobs"?

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5. Ban the "dominators suck" forum trolls.

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One thing I've noticed in life is that people who have confidence in the truth and validity of their views do not generally feel the need to suppress the views of others.

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Dominators can hold an enemy, making it unable to act, THEN use some blaster powers to quickly take the enemy down.

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If we could actually routinely do that, you wouldn't hear so many complaints about doms.

Dom damage up until mid-30s or so is weak, and even then it's average at best. Dom aoe control isn't any good at all until completely slotted out with SOs. Are there ways of dealing with these problems so that playing a dom can be enjoyable? Yes -- and we spend a great deal of time on this board suggesting and reporting slotting and power selection and usage to make the most of what we have. But the idea that doms are uber tank mages seems to far overestimate what the great majority of dom builds can do over the great majority of their careers.

And that's not even considering the triangles of death which, all by itself, is a huge problem for the AT.