Catministrator
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Quote:And I'm saying that "not using a label" is not an option for me. I'm not saying it's not the best option - but it's one I refuse to consider, to put it a bit more boldly. I'm not trying to cut the stereotyping completely out of the equation - there's simply no way to do that while sticking to my guns. I do, however, believe that it can be cut down on by adopting some other means of phrase; and then associating what I do with that.Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
What Bright Shadow is saying is that if the third is the goal, then not putting something is the best way to achieve it.
There's no way to put down everything that might turn another player off in a nice easy to read list, because people vary too much.
Put what people need to know in order to understand your depiction of the character in your description, and let everything else go naturally. If someone spazzes about a facet of your character when it comes up, well, that can happen about a lot of things under a lot of circumstances.
Sticking labels out front is going to make it more likely to filter out potential positive experiences, because of the potential for people to go "Oh, well, you're nothing more than an ERPer, there's nothing for me here."
And while some folks might say "Well, their fault for not being open minded" (and I have heard this from some folks before), my response is to note that the truth is that when you stick labels on your characters you're opting into a stereotype. -
Quote:And those three things are precisely the central issue, for me. I see that inclusion of the tag as a way to filter out the first two entirely. The second on is a bit more difficult - but it's the first one that I'd like to completely negate. If my character is going to be a turn-away for someone; then I think it's only fair to let them know in a passive way that lets them see it before they even start the interaction.Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
Then the only way you can get a universal, unbiased, and "surprising" reaction to this particular detail of your character, is to just not put it in your character description and let people find out on their own, through the way your play the character.
Think about it. Imagine the same Pixie scenario. If you put the "tag" in your character description, three scenarios would happen:
1. The player of the Pixie is turned off and just draws a big red circle around your character for a variety of unknown reasons, such as them thinking you're just here for ERP.
2. The player of the Pixie is turned on by this and would immediately approach your character because of a variety of unknown reasons, such as them finding this character detail interesting, or maybe they'd wanna get frisky and it's their thing.
3. The RP flows naturally and the player pretends they don't even know this detail. This RP could end bad or good depending on the characters.
However, if you don't put the tag, only one thing can happen: The RP flows naturally, the player doesn't know this detail, and the RP could end bad, good, comical, uncomfortable, awkward, funny, romantic, or a variety of other scenarios.
To me, the latter scenario is more fun. Because I like to let RP happen and sit back and watch my characters interact with others rather than trying to guide or force RP.
It's the folk I'm more interested in, anyhow, who can see a tag and still pull a number three.
Edit: Or, to clarify a bit: I don't mind if someone draws a big, red circle around my character because my character isn't something they're interested in. I'd encourage that, even. If it's not one's thing, it's not one's thing - and that doesn't bother me a bit. The second is... Well. I just said I'd like to avoid it; but I'll admit - I misread just a moment ago. The second is something I'd like, as well. If they're approaching for the wrong reasons, then I can do my best to clarify my intents - but at least they're approaching out of honest-to-goodness interest. Number three is the big goal, in essence. Someone sees the character; decides they're interested in the material - and then let's it flow naturally from there. -
Quote:Just to quote this a second time... because I really don't know how I missed the chance to clarify this the first round: This is the precisely the kind of RP I'd like to have for characters like Eri. Those little life-moments that help define whom a personality truly is; from the funny to the uncomfortable - the distraught to the resolute - the flights of fancy to the serious... It's these kinds of things, in particular, that I most like to envision when I sit down to write my intersexed characters. Character development. That, I think, is the real core of it. True enough, such things could handily be done regardless of one's sex; but for me, at least, it's those special moments that arise when you don't neatly fall into either that thrill me the most.Originally Posted by seebs
I dunno; it might be hilarious for a drunken pixie with a backwards baseball cap to follow you around asking inappropriate questions, but that's the kind of thing that's only funny if everyone involved agrees it's funny. ("So, hey, pretty lady, uhm, which bathroom do you go to? Can you pee sitting down? You get a lot of dates? You get a lot of second dates? Er, what I mean is...")
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Quote:Indeed it does! But I learned that many, many years ago when this whole fascination started. And yet... even knowing that, there's just something deeply disturbing to me about 'hiding' anything about that initial framework. Interpretations be damned, it just doesn't sit right to set about creating a character of any kind - and then hiding it because of what people might think. It's simply a matter of finding a slightly better approach, I think.Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
First I need to note that I had a great deal of difficulty working through this thread, because of the connotations behind the whole 'futa' thing. Still, the fact that this was approached with a genuine concern for what was most appropriate for everyone involved let me press ahead.
I think one of the more important things got mentioned sort of in passing in one of Seebs' adorably opaque collection of thoughts:
This is significant. If you bring attention to something that is sufficiently 'abnormal', then it becomes A Central Facet. You risk a lot of RP twisting away from your character and her relationships with other characters, into 'Well, obviously it's about the wang.'
Even for the open minded, if you put something in the bio, that's going to draw attention to it, and that will get people thinking about it as a core focus for the character concept.
I've actually counseled a lot of newer RPers against playing things like transgendered or even intersexed (using the RL definition) characters simply because when you get caught up in details like this, they can overshadow the more important emotional elements of the character. You get stuck on the physical bits, and start missing the person that really matters. Once they're more used to tending to the simpler (but often more important) things, then playing characters with more complicated issues is more reasonable.
But even experienced RPers have trouble with sorting these things out when they're encountering someone else's character. It's the first impression problem, in another form: The initial framework someone is going to build of your character is going to come from your costume, your bio, and whatever you say/emote while they're reading your bio.
Be really sure anything they see in there is really something you want them using as a framework for deciding who your character is, because even if you get the chance to demonstrate your character's depth, that initial framework is going to be there, and influence how they interpret things.
But, really, regardless how that... This is the first genuine opportunity I've ever had to see what others think on an open level like this. That alone is worth so much - and I especially appreciate your thoughts despite the subject being difficult for you.
Edit: As far as 'Romance = an excuse for eRP'... That's another awful set of of perceptions that deserves it's own discussion, I think. But that's what everything comes back to, isn't it? For every one person trying to do something honest, there are a dozen more enforcing the stereotype. Even those who work along a different path can't help but fall into the same situations, at times. No matter how much one discusses it; one can't change the facts. Even if one isn't following a certain set of assumptions themselves... those assumptions are still being validated somewhere. -
Quote:Hah. I did admit that she wasn't the best of examples - and precisely for that reason. Still; a fun idea is difficult to resist - and so, for better or worse, she's become my first such character in CoX.Originally Posted by Magpie_Mouse
Will you be the first person to make a non-objectified futa character?
Hmm.. catgirl with huge mammaries, penor and skimpy clothing.
I remain skeptical.
But, really, I said nothing about appearances - it's more in the intent and purpose. If I were setting out to make the first completely non-objectified Futa... I'd be very late to the game, as I'm sure others have gotten there well before I even started writing on the subject.
... Come to think of it, I suppose that's really the essence in all this: thin, blurred lines. If someone decides it's impossible to take Eri - or any similar character - seriously because of how she looks... I can't exactly fault them for that. The best I could do is let actions speak for themselves. -
Quote:... I must find such a drunken pixie. This is too cute an idea to pass up!Originally Posted by seebs
I dunno; it might be hilarious for a drunken pixie with a backwards baseball cap to follow you around asking inappropriate questions, but that's the kind of thing that's only funny if everyone involved agrees it's funny. ("So, hey, pretty lady, uhm, which bathroom do you go to? Can you pee sitting down? You get a lot of dates? You get a lot of second dates? Er, what I mean is...")
Edit: I suppose it really does boil down to a clash of intent and perception though, doesn't it? I can do my best to clarify my intent... but as much as I'd like, I can't entirely change other's perceptions short of just crashing through them in my own way. In this case, it really does seem like the best answer would be to write as I please; then simply correct those who take it as an open invitation. -
Quote:First: I want my own "Gender Bread Person" now...Originally Posted by Smersh
Sex and gender are two different things. You can also add orientation and expression to the list.
Here's a handy chart.
Any person can fall anywhere along the entire spectrum in all four dimensions.
Second: That's quite handy! -
Quote:Actually, that's what I was using at first. It's a nice, attractive idea (Imagine it going next to Gender: in a stats section... though I suppose that might technically be Sex: ) - but might just be a little too ambiguous. I wasn't sure.Originally Posted by Baarogue
If only SOMEONE had suggested a concise way of indicating all of what you said here earlier in the thread. ^_^
Along the lines of terms like "intersex", how about "mixed gender" - though that's longer so probably not as attractive.
And while that one, Eis, might not be appropriate for every character's particular bio... Why, that isn't a bad place to start at all! -
Quote:I gained a hundred pounds just watching that.Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
Now I'd like to gain a hundred more attempting to eat it! -
Quote:Aw, Boss is just picking at me like friends do. We've actually had conversations on the matter prior to this.Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
After speaking with Cat I can safely say she's not futalol, heh. The concept has been given a lot more thought and depth put into it than you might have thought.
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Quote:Hah, no. I'm going to do more research on the real-world condition in the meantime. Maybe there's something I can do to help, if I'm going to go and bastardize the term with my flights of fancy.Originally Posted by Bosstone
If it makes you feel better, we can have a round of lolfuta?
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Quote:Supervillain or no; that's the kind of face you want to have around! I'll have to try and get ahold of some material involving him, now.Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
Could be worse I'm sure. And I should note that the gent in the picture is Vandal Savage.
On a more general note, though, it seems like I'll be back at the drawing board with some fresh perspective... But you know. The whole thing actually received a little discussion. That's more than I expected going into this, and that alone makes the effort worth it. -
Quote:Well, while I'll apologize for assuming... I fear that first impression is just going to be tough to shake; no matter the content!Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
I was replying to Catministrator who claimed to have heard my post in a distinguished voice. There aren't very few people who'd do that after having read some more of my posts I presume. I just forewent a direct quote cause I didn't anticipate anyone posting in between.
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Quote:You know, I don't want to inflict that kind of surprise on folk.. but when Eisregen worded it that way.. and seeing his avatar... I just couldn't help but imagine it in the most gentlemanly voice I could conjure up; and now it won't go away.Originally Posted by Heroid
((From an rp standpoint, I think this is the way to go. ))
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Quote:Originally Posted by Bosstone
I have noticed, which is why I'm pointing it out.
And I'm insulted. Two weeks at least. World of difference.
See? I've been so busy thinking that I've lost track of time! -
Quote:You've known me for... about a week now, right? "Overthinking" is kind of my standard mode of thought, if you havn't noticed. :POriginally Posted by Bosstone
At this point, I'm pretty sure you're overthinking it. Otherwise we need to find a new term for the little wrinkly alien turds currently called monkeys.
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Quote:*snrk* Goodness, no. But it will be something to keep in mind if any of my intersexed characters find themselves in that sort of situation. That's all I really wanted to know about it.Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Yes, it does. I won't discuss the details in public however, it's rather lewd. D:
As for 'Intersex' itself... It's back to my original question about the term, then. Would it really be the correct one? It's a real-world medical term, and I'd be applying it to what is - so far as I know - a completely unrealistic concept. Deformed/unformed genetalia? Certainly. Fully-functioning male anatomy on what is, barring the lack of female genitals, otherwise a woman? Fairly certain not. Somehow using one for the other just seems... indecent, and wrong to those who truly are intersexed. -
Quote:Does that actually work? I've always been curious. It seems like it might be a horribly uncomfortable thing for a man.. or in this case.. woman.. to do.Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Ha, well, they call it 'tucking' for a reason. I don't think anyone, regardless of how open minded they are, would appreciate too many emotes or descriptions about swinging and bulging. :P
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Quote:Well. It is precisely the thing I want to avoid, which is why I'm out here looking for a more suitable alternative! .. But now that I've thought about it a bit, it does, actually, apply to more than just ERP depending on the character. For instance, it might be a point of difficulty if one were to, say, swimsuit model... Though, there, I've generally subscribed to the 'Clark Kent Effect'. If Superman can hide behind a pair of glasses...Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Stick with something like intersexed; be clinical. If people don't understand, they'll likely ask and then you'll give them an explanation I assume. I would really, really, really steer clear of terms like 'shemale' - they can be terribly offensive to a lot of people, and are pretty crude in and out of themselves. At best you'll just heavily sexualise the concept which, while possibly intentional, will likely skewer the initial viewpoint people have of you.
As for the disclaimer, I'd personally avoid it. Again, I think it's best that people express an interest by themselves rather than you drawing a line around it. Seems unneccesary to me.
Edit: So, at the moment.. It's looking like 'avoid a label, but imply it in the biography' is really the most sensible option. It's just a matter, then, of determining how to approach it in a way that allows room for asking. -
Quote:Well, that's what I've been trying to figure out thus far - how to approach it within the bio in a way that people will understand. A 'tag' simplifies things... but something to just give proper indication, while the rest is reserved for the VirtueVerse, would work fine. Yet not every character I have has enough on them to fill a whole VV page... yet!Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
If that's the case then I think a link to your virtueverse profile will suffice, as well as a brief mention of the race's hermaphroditic/intersexed nature in her bio. I don't think a direct tag will really serve any purpose other than drawing undue attention to it - you'll give off the wrong impression to both crowds, imo.
If it's a 'when it happens' approach to ERP, then if someone's that interested in your character they'll likely have paid attention to your bio or nattered to you in PMs first. If it doesn't happen, then it doesn't matter if they haven't noticed, ha.
I suppose it would help if I admitted to having used the term 'Shemale' to good effect in non-CoX RP - but that was before I discovered that term is, supposedly, offensive in real-world applications. Touching on it in a place like CoX is just... new to me.
Edit: Hmh.. I suppose I could just use a 'Ask me if you're unsure about the implications' label to accompany the biographies; then explain on an as-needed basis? -
Quote:Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Question, will you be actively looking for ERP with the character or not? I have a feeling I've been reading the thread wrong - I'm confused if this a way of broadcasting what your character is so potential partners can respond as needed, or just a way of tagging a character's trait without it coming off as an advertisment.
It's a little of both, actually. I will not be actively looking for ERP, but am not averse to the idea of an honest-to-goodness romance (which need not necessarily include ERP) if such a thing occurs during the natural course of regular RP. Yet I also want to 'tag a character's trait' without it coming off as an advertisement; both for the sake of being open and for the sake of... well, I suppose it's really just my personal quirk. -
Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way? For the most part, I see it as a courtesy to other Roleplayers; who might like to know what they're getting into before investing time - and, occasionally, actual emotion - to it. Goodness knows there are plenty out there who would prefer to simply steer clear of anything intersex-related when they can; and would have nothing to do with it if they knew. Mind you, this is all strictly in the fantasies of roleplaying - it's fair to say I would expect; and certainly would not encourage real people to go around wearing labels on them.
In addition, folk won't know you've taken a slightly... different... direction with something if they don't know what that something is... but, again, perhaps I've taken the wrong approach from the get-go? It's something I'd like to be open and honest about, at least.
Edit: In fact, my biggest fear isn't of 'disgusting' those who dislike the idea; but of offending those real people who genuinely want the support. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
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Nice quick reply! :P
Alright then, here's the best advice I can offer.
Be up front about it with the people you trust in RP. Give them a disclaimer, if you will. If they insist on being a jerk, either tell them to go fornicate themselves with a brass instrument, or just tell them that just because your character is intersex doesn't mean she wants to do the horizontal monster mash with anything that happens to have an orifice. That's just who your character is. If that doesn't work out well (and I'm sorry I can't offer anything better) you may be inclined to the "don't tell if they ask" policy mentioned in your OP.
EDIT: Your VV page for Eribelle there has a problem: You start with U.E.P. and switch to U.E.D. Been playing Supreme Commander? :P
... Oops.
Anyway, that's the idea. It's really just a matter of figuring out what term/phrase to use in the bios that gets the point across without being vulgar about it. That's all this really boils down to. 'Futanari' carries with it all sorts of connotations - and tends imply 'Hermaphrodite' more than 'Non-Op Shemale'; and yet 'Shemale' itself as a term generally reserved for the porn industry. 'Intersex' was a good one.. but again, may not be entirely accurate - nor is it a widely-understood term, from what I've gathered.
Edit: As another example... I have an 'Operative Mommy' type of character that I'm working on writing. The gist of it is that she's a recently-singled mother of two who joins up with Arachnos as a Soldier in order to make ends meet and keep her children clothed and fed. In itself, it's a fairly basic idea; but I came to a hitch upon trying to decide whether this would have been a more standard wife/husband relationship - or wife/wife, with one of them having been intersexed. Those kinds of angles are interesting to write about, for me - though, admittedly, don't make much difference to others beyond 'flavor', I suppose. -
Quote:I found it on Wikipedia, actually, and then did some digging around on the term itself. This was probably the best source of information... As for the questions!Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Let me begin by giving you mad props. Mad props for bringing this up, and openly saying you're in to it. Nothing wrong with it, and it's dumb people shun it. I look at it this way: We have our likes, our dislikes, and our guilty pleasures. Don't knock it until you've tried it, and if you've tried it don't be a jerk about it if you didn't enjoy it.
That said, I do have a few questions for you regarding your 'intersex' character (I like that term, where'd you find it?):
Will her 'gender' cause her to act differently than a woman with regular equipment?
Will it affect her physical structure in ways other than the obvious? (I ask this question because in many cases [Futa] tags are synonymous with the Physique/Legs/Chest sliders being all the way up.)
Are you going to be actively seeking a romantic-style RP?
I think I'll be able to better answer/address your post if you're willing to respond to these. If not, no worries, and IMO, don't let anyone get you down. Just be open and let them know what's up.
1) In most cases, no. I do have a couple of non-CoX characters who are more conflicted about their... well.. conflicting... biology; but for the most part, they act like any sensible woman might.
2) Nope on this one, too. I tend to bump the physique/leg sliders up as a matter of preference, but this isn't linked to anything in particular.
3) And.. another no, actually. I only accept that it might possibly happen regardless, given that I spent so many years not even contemplating RP within the City. My main focus is character development... and if it came up as part of that...
Edit: If you'd like an example, http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Eribelle is one of them. It's the first Verse page I've done - so it's open for some heavy revision; but it might give a general idea. Though I should note she's probably not the best example. It started out as a silly idea and an experiment to try something a little more eye-candy than my usual character - and then took off on it's own once I started thinking about it. She's probably the closest thing I have, visually, to anything 'typical'. -
Quote:Humh. It could be done, as said above... but it would be awfully tiny. If you could get a screenshot of the same face with the camera as close to it as possible... you could (or I could!) crop a much bigger, cleaner mug-shot of that handsome face.Originally Posted by Stryph
Heh, I forgot CoX had a screenshot section. This whole time I've been trying to paste prntscrn photos into paint not realizing it was auto setting it to a different folder. So I'd open up paint and wined up with a black picture.
Here's Enerjack Just need to find a way to manipulate the photo to turn it into a mug shot. If anybody is feeling free, by all means go right on ahead. But for those curious, that's the face behind the screen on the other end.