Captain Fabulous

[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have two powersets: Buff/Debuff and Damage.
Controllers have two powersets: Control and Buff/Debuff.

See anything missing from the Controller description? Yep, Damage. When the game released (which is probably about the time the manual became obsolete) Controllers were the teaming AT, thus no damage powerset.

Unfortunately, because Controllers had so much trouble soloing at lower levels (pre-pet) the developers decided to add in the travesty that is containment, thus granting Controllers what is a third facet or powerset: Damage and throwing a lot of balance out of whack. The primary team focussed AT disappeared, to be replaced by the tank-mages of today.

So yes, Defenders were originally intended to be an AT that was good on a team. But they were not the AT that required teaming, that was the Controllers. What's interesting is that there are Defender builds that are in a very similar soloing boat that Controllers used to be in, and yet there's very little concern about possibly fixing them. FF is one.

At the moment Controllers changed from post pet powerhouses to full game powerhouses, the AT's and their purposes became a lot more skewed, and Defenders inherited the "team player" mantle by default, not by design.

EDIT: I think perception has become reality for a lot of people. The Defender is the "team" AT, and thus no one cares whether they can solo well or not. Those people forget the history of the game, and of Controllers specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, way back in the beginning, soloing a Defender was much like soloing a Corruptor is today. You weren't quite as powerful as a Blaster, but you made up for it with your buffs and debuffs, and could easily solo at a good pace without constantly running out of endurance and needing "patience".

I really don't think that's too much to ask out of any AT in this game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here we will disagree. Defender base damage needs to be raised by 20% for all secondaries. You never balance secondaries based upon primaries or on secondary attributes. Just give every power in every secondary that does damage a 20% increase. Done. This puts us back at a damage scale that is much closer to the .65 of Blaster that we're supposed to be. Remember, Blasters and Corrupters were buffed, but we weren't. We're supposed be at 65% damage of a Blaster, but right now we're about 54%. This needs to be fixed.

[...]

And trust me, giving Defenders a 20% base damage increase will in no way get them even close to a Corruptor, let alone Blaster, no matter what their primary is. We are flopped with Corruptors, right? So we should do slightly less damage in exchange for slightly better buffs/debuffs. Right now that balance is way off. A 20% damage increase puts things back to where they should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with that is that Corruptors have a 0.75 base modifier. So if we raise Defender damage any more, whether it's through a base damage buff or a 20% buff to the scale damage of all their powers, Defenders will end up doing more damage than Corruptors. Since Corruptors have only 80% of the defenses of a Defender, that will create an imbalance.

You might argue that Scourge adds to the Corruptor's base damage, raising it above what a Defender can do, however it's already been established that certain Defender builds can come very close to a Corruptor's damage, or even exceed it. Scourge only kicks in late in the fight, and at most, it represents only a 25% increase in damage. In practice, it is probably lower than that, due to wasted damage.

If you want to balance the Corruptor's Inherent, then give Defenders an Inherent that boosts damage. I don't think that's even necessary, though, because of the advantage that the Defender's greater damage buffs represent to his total damage.

Wait a minute... what? Corruptors were buffed? What are you talking about, I haven't heard anything about this. As far as I know, Corruptors went from 75% of the damage of a Blaster to 67% with the Blaster boost, just like we went from 65% to 57%.


[/ QUOTE ]

Corruptors were buffed with Scourge, and it's already been shown on average it buffs their damage by at least 20%.

And you forget that Corruptors get virtually the same buffs and debuffs that Defenders do. So while a Defender can buff his damage by 30%, a Corrupter can buff theirs by 26% -- a mere 4% difference. But a Corruptor's base damage is 15.4% more than a Defender's. When you factor in Scourge and the AT buff modifier, they end up doing at least 30% more -- and remember, that's 30% more than a Defender WITH a 30% buff.
Dude, I'm not making this [censored] up, these are the real numbers. Why do you think Corruptors can sail thru missions like a Blaster but Defenders plod thru like a 90 year old with emphysema?

And I'm not saying a Defender should get an inherent that does damage. I'm perfectly fine with Vigilance provided it's fixed. What I'm saying is that the current AT damage modifiers are no longer appropriate in the CoX of today. They may have been fine 4 years ago, but not now. A 20% across the board damage increase to Defender secondaries puts them slightly above Corruptor base damage, but well below Corruptor damage with Scourge.

Now you could argue that it's their inherent, and therefore it shouldn't matter, cause we get our own inherent that gives us a bonus that Corruptors don't get. While that may be true on paper, it doesn't pan out in the game. The objective in this game is to kill things. Not buff and debuff. If you can't kill, you can't progress. It's that simple.

9 out of 11 ATs in the game get an inherent damage buff. You can't just dismiss that. Nor can you say the devs ignore all that extra damage when they balance critters. So why are they still using 4 year old damage modifiers that clearly diminish the one AT that was already near the bottom of the damage scale and NEVER got a damage buff?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I believe she already pointed out that with knockback reduced to knockdown, you will be unable to get it back up to its original 10.something magnitude with slotting. So I'm sure she'll say that this has nerfed the power for her as a Controller.

I'm not sure the disorient is going away, though, so it may still set up Containment. As low a chance as that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor thing... I feel sooooo bad for her...

Here is a question I have. Can a power that is flagged to not do Containment damage still be used to establish Containment? Hmm...

I'm kinda torn on the whole damage/Containment thing. I don't necessarily mind that Controllers can often do more damage than a Defender (not always, it depends upon the sets). What I mind is that the damage-to-buff ratios aren't equal because they don't take Containment into consideration. This allows most Controllers to do significantly more damage than a Defender (often more than double, sometimes TRIPLE), while retaining 88% effectiveness on Defender buffs and debuffs AND getting 125% effectiveness on Defender control powers.

There is no way you can even consider that to be fair and balanced. Fix this imbalance and I won't give a monkey's fart if Controller's get Containment damage from Defender powers. Just as long as it's fair and balanced. That's all I'm asking for.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what majicj thinks of the change to Repulsion Bomb?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at first she'll crap a brick, then realize the knockdown can most likely be turned into a knockback with a KO enhancer.

Then she'll [censored] another brick when she realizes she won't get containment.

Aw... poor thing...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I digress. The Defender AT needs two things: an across the board damage buff and a version of Vigilance that works for the soloist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would say that the damage buff needs to be dependent on the Primary, not across the board. For one thing, starting with Sets that don't HAVE one would be a good start...

(Going off the topic, but I wonder if it would be possible to have an Inherent that somehow adapted to the Primary. Like for instance if you have a lot of offense like Kin, it gives you defense, and obviously with FF it would boost your damage. Maybe base it on what kind of powers you use. Just a thought...)

You're on the money about what is needed for the soloist, though. The Endurance issue is really the same as the damage one. Defenders use so much Endurance because their attacks are so inefficient. Plus, they have to use damage boost powers on top of that, which uses up even more Endurance.

On the other hand, lots of Defender Primaries have either Endurance regeneration or a way to recover Endurance.

Really, the biggest issue with Defenders is that more than any other Archetype, it is dependent on its powers. It has damage buffs that can make it do Blaster-level damage, so it has to have low base damage. It has lots of powers that enable it to avoid attacks and reduce damage, so it is very robust. It has powers that increase its attack rate and recharge Endurance, so it has to have a high Endurance cost. In a way, it's like Masterminds, that have to have weak base abilities to compensate for their henchmen.

The problem comes when you are missing some of those tools. Either because they aren't available, or because you didn't pick up that power. I wouldn't begin to guess how horrid it would be trying to solo a D3 without Tar Patch. (or even without Tar Patch 3 slotted for recharge)

I'm not sure there's a way to fix that without dramatically changing the Archetype.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we will disagree. Defender base damage needs to be raised by 20% for all secondaries. You never balance secondaries based upon primaries or on secondary attributes. Just give every power in every secondary that does damage a 20% increase. Done. This puts us back at a damage scale that is much closer to the .65 of Blaster that we're supposed to be. Remember, Blasters and Corrupters were buffed, but we weren't. We're supposed be at 65% damage of a Blaster, but right now we're about 54%. This needs to be fixed.

And actually, only 3 Defender primaries out of 8 have any kind of +recovery or +end. Empathy has both a self+team and a teammate only +recovery, Radiation has +recovery, and Kinetics has +end and a teammate only +recovery. The thing is, the really useful ones all come late in the set. Empathy gets Recovery Aura at 18. Radiation gets Accelerate Metabolism very early, but the +recovery is very small, just enough to cover the extra endurance used by the +recharge component. And Kinetics gets Transference at 26, but it needs a foe to fuel it.

And trust me, giving Defenders a 20% base damage increase will in no way get them even close to a Corruptor, let alone Blaster, no matter what their primary is. We are flopped with Corruptors, right? So we should do slightly less damage in exchange for slightly better buffs/debuffs. Right now that balance is way off. A 20% damage increase puts things back to where they should be.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What did Defenders get? Vigilance. Translation: nothing. Other than some minor additions and/or changes to a few powers here and there (not all good, mind you -- some would be classified as a nerf), Defenders got nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that Vigilance is not sufficient when compared to other Inherents. So in that sense, yes, Defenders have not been brought back up to the same level as other Archetypes.

However, I'm not sure that the Defender Inherent needs to boost their damage. The Tanker Inherent does not boost damage. (In fact, it's the only one that doesn't, other than Vigilance) There are those who claim that Gauntlet is useless, or not enough, but I feel that it DOES do the job that is set for it, considerably better than any other Archetype can. So while it may not do what we want it to do as an Inherent, it does seem to be up to a level with them.

Vigilance needs something, but I'm not sure what. And honestly, there are deeper issues with FF (and other sets) that an Inherent can't solve. We want an Inherent to reduce imbalance between Power Sets, not increase it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never suggested Vigilance be turned into a damage buff. I think Defenders secondaries should get an across the board 20% base damage increase -- nothing to do with Vigilance.

I actually like the idea of an endurance discount inherent, especially for a Defender, so I'm ok with the concept. Its the execution that needs help.

I propose that instead of it being based upon the average health of your teammates it be based upon the number of foes within 80' of you. This keeps it thematic to "vigilance", and also makes it fair and balanced to all Defenders, regardless of powersets, slotting, and skill (or lack thereof). Also the power MUST be active regardless of whether you are teamed or solo.

Having it work like this gives you the greatest discount at the beginning of a battle when you're going to be firing up all your buffs and debuffs, and then slowly decreases over time as the foes are defeated and there is less "defending" to do. Allowing it to work while solo will immensely help those Defenders whose chief barrier is constantly running out of endurance.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.


[/ QUOTE ]

Go read my guide. Hell, post a new topic asking people if they can solo with their Stormers. Storm is one of the most solo friendly Defender primaries there are. The general mayhem and debuffs should be more than enough to protect you. Dark by the way, is probably the most synergistic combo with Storm out of all secondaries.

A I've already said, go read my guide or ask The Mighty Storm now that she's back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess I just picked the wrong secondary -- Electricity. Cause even at lvl 28 with 3 slotted Stamina, all attacks slotted 1 accy/3 damage/1 end (except Short Circuit which is 3 slotted for end mod instead of damage) I cannot defeat even heroic spawns. If I don't use any primaries and just attack I have just enough endurance to take them out, but I am left dead or nearly dead.

If I drop Freezing Rain on them, even with the -res debuff I run out of endurance before they're all dead. Same with Hurricane. I can keep them from attacking me and take little to no damage, but there is not enough endurance left over for me to kill them. And with 2 single target attacks, one AoE attack, and one PbAoE attack, it's just not possible to form a decent attack chain.

So basically I can protect myself, or kill them (with high risk of death), but not both. Which kinda puts a kink in soloing.

Ok, Mighty One, King of Storm... what the hell do I do?

[ QUOTE ]
maybe I'm building badly or a lousy player - though I think I'm just average and with slow reflexes, but a lot of knowledge of the game - but I can't solo very well with my defenders, even though they're the AT I play most.

I can't manage even a heroic mission versus mobs that stun or hold. If I miss a few too many times in a fight, I run out of endurance and can't protect myself anymore.

I take attacks on my defenders, and I slot them, but, let's take my level 50 kinetic defender for example. She solos about as well as a level 11 scrapper, which means, she can usually do fine in a heroic mission but an EB or a couple of +1 groups too close together and she dies. Or being held without enough breakfrees (and I don't count it as "can solo" if you have to stop in the middle of a mission and go to Pocket D to buy inspirations).

My storm defender couldn't even solo that well with her previous build, but I respec'd her and figured out a strategy for her and now I can solo at that level 11 scrapper (scrapper with no protection from mez and training enhances) by debuffing the heck out of their to hit - hurricane and a couple of dark blast cones. So they miss her a lot. That's her only defense. (storm defender is now level 33, she was created back in 2004)

The problem is that defenders attacks do so little damage, even fully slotted, it takes them much more than twice as long to defeat an opponent than a blaster. And they have powers with more self protection, but depending on the primary, that can vary and be problematic taking too much endurance.

Prior to getting stamina, many defenders simply can't defeat opponents that are resistant to their damage types. They run out of endurance before doing enough damage. The enemy recovers hp faster than they recover endurance to go on attacking. This is because the powers the defender uses to help themself cost a lot more than scrappers self protection powers - because they are really team protection powers. But when soloing the cost is the same as protecting the team - higher even due to lack of defiance - even though the use of the power is much lower. Look at the amount of self healing an empathy defender gets vs a regeneration scrapper, per endurance point used from healing aura vs reconstruction.

So, sure defenders 'can' solo. but it's no fun to me. I like playing defenders in teams. I do have some of that 'add scrapper soloer' mentality, that's why my first 50 was a kinetic defender - she speeds up entire teams' play so I could play at the speed I enjoyed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow... thank you for taking the time to chime in. It's nice to know that it's just not me.

[ QUOTE ]
MAJOR UBER EXTRA UPDATE!!!!!!!!

I just sent Castle a PM asking WHY he added damage to Repulsion Bomb. The buff seemed to come out of nowhere and it made no sense to me. I asked him where the reasoning came from, and he responded... Here is his unedited response, which he gave me permission to post:

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the reasoning is simple:

Force Fields has a couple powers which are unpopular, repulsion bomb being one. Of those, Repulsion bomb was the easiest to address, since it already had a good list of options. I started by increasing the damage; which you guys are seeing now. I then changed KB to KD, and stripped Containment bonuses from it -- changes which haven't hit the Training Room yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You heard it here first, Repulsion Bomb WILL BE KNOCKDOWN!!!!!!!

*does a happy dance*



[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... veeerrryyyy iiiiiinteresting...

Would definitely be worth a test run to check it out once it's up. I just hope it's not nerfed in some other way to make up for the change, like increasing the end cost or recharge time, or removing the disorient.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have said on a number of occasions that although I think it's possible for any Defender to solo, it's an unrewarding and unpleasant experience for most, and wasn't always like this. Some combinations of sets are better at it than others, but I still don't think any are all that good at it, at least not enough that I find it fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the biggest issue, not that Defenders as an Archetype are unable to solo, but that specific POWER SETS are unable to solo. Or at least make it so tedious that it becomes a frustrating experience for the player.

By comparison, there are no Power Sets for Tankers or Scrappers that are unable to solo. They may have more or less capability than others, Regen may be considered uber, and SR somewhat slower to level, but your ability as a Scrapper is not that much changed by your Power Set. You can solo as a Scrapper because you are a Scrapper, not because you are a Regen Scrapper.

Likewise, when Controllers had trouble levelling to 32, prior to Containment, they ALL had trouble soloing to 32. No Power Sets specifically were easy to solo. Kin might have given you a bit of a boost, but with only weak attacks for Kin to boost, it wasn't really enough. You in essense had to build your Controller as something else, take attacks from the Power Pool and fight much like a Dominator, in order to solo. (And I can say this for sure because I did this)

Once Containment came out, it didn't give any specific advantage to any Power Set or another. Rad or Kin was the best choice for a soloing Controller, but Containment still provided the majority of the damage boost, and even an Earth/FF could solo. Maybe not well, but by using some of the tactics of the early days and picking up Pool attacks it could be done.

Now, Rad and Kin Defenders are NOT difficult to solo. I don't know where you could get such an impression, if that is in fact what you are saying. Dark can be somewhat slow, but I've soloed a D3, and I know it's possible. It's slow, but no slower than playing a Tanker. I've never played Storm, but my understanding is that it is VERY strong solo, possibly even stronger than it is on a team, because of the problems most teams have with knockback. Solo, you can use knockback to your heart's content, because the only person you have to make happy is you.

Trick Arrow, eh, if you want to call that hard to solo, then go ahead. I disagree, but then, I haven't gotten far enough to say one way or another. I suppose I don't have to have played Rad or Kin either, though, to believe those who say that they are extremely soloable. TA seems to have a reputation of being somewhat weak. But it did get a boost lately.

That leaves FF, Sonic, and Empathy. FF is what this thread is about. Sonic, IMO, is not really a soloable set, it has some strengths that FF doesn't, but it lacks some things FF gives you. My own experience found it tedious. I've never played Empathy, but my understanding of the set is that it's going to be fairly hard to solo. I've heard some people say they do very well with it, but they may be either overestimating the ease of it, or there could be something to do with the Endurance recovery powers which somehow compensates.

Now, I, personally, would like to see those three sets get buffs to make them more soloable. Maybe TA as well. But there are those who accept the role of those sets as "support only", including, according to some posts I've read, some of the devs. Maybe that'll change, and maybe it won't, but really, I feel that soloability should be based on Archetype, and not Power Set. All I can do is try and recommend changes based on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some very good points here that I agree with. My biggest issue with soloing Defenders is two fold: you don't do enough damage to efficiently defeat foes, and don't have enough endurance to fuel your buffs/debuffs and attack at the same time.

Vigilance could help alleviate the endurance problem if it, at the very least, allowed the Defender's own health to be used in the calculation.

So by the nature of these two issues, it's easy to understand why sets with low end usage, damage buffs, resistance debuffs, +end/+recovery and healing/+regen are going to be the most effective at soloing. Anything that lets you do more damage using less endurance is going to make it easier for a Defender to solo.

And your secondary is just as important as your primary, at least as far as soloing is concerned.

But I think the fact that you have to pick and choose "optimal" sets if you want to solo a Defender clearly indicates there is a problem with the AT.

Just like there was with Controllers until they got Containment. Interesting to note, of all pre-Containment trollers, Illusion was generally considered the easiest to solo because you got perma and multiple Phantom Armies at lvl 18, and back then they did a considerable amount of damage. All other trollers were by and large teammate-only until they got their pet at 32, which again were very powerful and stackable; you could easily have 2-3 Singularities or Jacks out, or a small army of Imps.

After all control abilities were nerfed and Trollers got Containment, all the pets were drastically nerfed and limited to one set at a time. And because of ED, PA is no longer permable.

And because the Illusion set has no fast recharging AoE mez power that establishes containment, they went from one of the easiest sets to solo to one of, if not the, hardest. How's that for a kick in [censored]?

But I digress. The Defender AT needs two things: an across the board damage buff and a version of Vigilance that works for the soloist.

Take care of those two things and all Defenders regardless of sets should be able to solo a lot better.

[ QUOTE ]
Defenders were never nerfed. Never. Other ATs were nerfed, and then they were later given bonuses that put them past where they were BEFORE they were nerfed. Defenders have simply not been touched. Does that mean that Defenders are now worse of COMPARATIVELY? Probably, yes. Does that mean that Defenders were NERFED? No, we still operated just as good as WE used to. The only difference being now that other ATs operate better. I can live with that.

We still rock harder than any other superteam when we all get together.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, first off I never said Defenders were nerfed, at least not specifically as an AT. We suffered like all other ATs thru GDN and ED, which were both major nerfs to everyone, not just Defenders.

So in that regard, yes, we were nerfed along with everyone else.

But I've been through all this before, and I don't want to rehash it again. Everyone was nerfed. Critters were buffed. And then most ATs were buffed with an inherent ability that increased their damage output. Some ATs, like Tanks and Blasters, got a straight, across the board base damage increase. Some ATs have even had their inherent abilities buffed multiple times (yes, I'm talking to you Dominators).

What did Defenders get? Vigilance. Translation: nothing. Other than some minor additions and/or changes to a few powers here and there (not all good, mind you -- some would be classified as a nerf), Defenders got nothing.

So what do you call it when you nerf all ATs and then start buffing all but one of them back up? A reverse-nerf?

So yeah, we're operating at the same level as we were after ED -- massively reduced buffs and debuffs and 50% less damage.

And while critters and other ATs have been repeatedly buffed since, we've been virtually untouched.

Call it what you will, but it's still not right.

Now maybe I could live with it if critters weren't buffed and given all sorts of mez and status effects, more HPs, greater resistances, more damage, etc. But they were. The game was made harder, and everyone besides Defenders were buffed to compensate. How is that not some kind of nerf?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, my character is 41 and he's Storm/Dark and I soloed him for more than half of those levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now was this back in I1-5? Because after that and I'd have to call you a big fat LIAR. Or someone who enjoys pain and suffering.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Storm has too many toggles and runs out of end too quickly. It also only has 1 high end cost resistance debuff power that can't be made perma, and typically doesn't last long enough to defeat an entire spawn. Oh, and no self heal or end recovery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Snowstorm + Hurricane + Steamy Mist are crazy expensive to run. That was sarcasm by the way.

Combine it's AoE -res, -def, slow, knockdown and stacked -recharge, it's not terribly difficult to kill an entire spawn if you have a secondary that does good AoE. Add in Lightning Cloud and Tornado? It become that much easier. Oh yeah, there is that AoE disorient that will stun minions in case you need it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is I need to wait till I get to level 32 before I can solo a Storm Defender, and only if I pick a secondary with lots of AoEs... Uh-huh...

So which powers do I give up so that I can have a travel power, the fitness pool, and all those AoE attacks, cause you have your Stormy taking all but one power. Now do you go with Leadership? Cause as a Defender you should as you get the best values from it. But oh poo, that's another 2 toggles to run... where oh were will I find the endurance to run 5 toggles, an AoE debuff that uses 1/5th of my end, AND attack?

And at level 32 with all those wonderful Storm powers, a travel power, fitness, and leadership, I have room for, lemmeeseee, THREE attacks!!! Wow, how UBER am I??

So what exactly do you do pre-level 20 when you don't have Stamina or SOs? You certainly can't run 3 toggles using 0.57 end/sec (assuming 1 lvl 15 IO end reducer in each), spam Freezing Rain, AND attack. Certainly not with a base recovery of only 1.667

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Trick Arrow only becomes viable after you get Disruption Arrow. Endurance isn't too much of a problem as you don't have any toggles, but with no self heal and the -resistance power late in the set, it's a pain. And let's not forget the sheer uselessness of Entangling Arrow and Flash Arrow, and the stupidly long time it takes to slap down Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and Acid Arrow -- that is if you're not already dead halfway thru that chain.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize they sped up the animation times right? Also, the main -res power is Acid Arrow; available at lvl12. With slotting it's up every 6-10 seconds. I agree the early levels can be difficult, but if you have problems clearing a spawn after Oil Slick and EMP Arrow become available, sorry, but you need to learn your set a little better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I have to get halfway thru the game before I can effectively solo? And I'm not sure I would call Acid Arrow the set's "main -res power". Yes, it's available earlier and does more than just -res, which is nice. And it's by no means a bad power (TA already has 2 stinkers, 1 questionable, and 1 that's still borked... I thank God it's a decent power). But it's a very small radius, only 8 feet, lasts only 20 seconds and requires an accuracy check. And though it's easily slottable to recharge before it expires, I don't think it stacks if you cast it again (tho I admit I'm not 100% sure of this -- my guess, knowing the devs, is that only the damage stacks. I don't think I've ever stopped long enough while playing to check to see if the other effects stack).

Disruption Arrow is a much larger AoE, can be slotted for perma, requires no accuracy check, and has a shorter cast time. It's only downside is that it's unmovable. But that shouldn't be a problem if you're a good little TA Defender who knows Glue Arrow always comes first.

And unlike other -res debuffs in other sets that are 30%, both Acid Arrow and Disruption are only 20% each. Which means you really need both to have the same effectiveness that Sonic, Dark, and Rad get in just one power (I left out Storm because Freezing Rain is not permable -- all the others are). Well actually with both you're actually 10% better, so in some ways it kinda balances out I guess.

[ QUOTE ]

You've made some good points about the FF set so far Poobah, but your points about Defenders not being able to solo are ridiculous. The only people who cannot solo as a Defender are the people that:
1) have no clue how to play their set and/or haven't given it time to develop
2) intentionally gimped themselves for soling by playing some "pure" support character
3) are ADD addled meatheads who can't handle anything less than the leveling speed of Scrappers or whatever FoTM build they get their jollies off of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit I am sometimes a bit heavy-handed when I combine "Defender" and "solo" in the same sentence. But I still don't think that any AT should require "time to develop" before they can solo. Controllers were like that for the longest time until they got their pets. They were given Containment offset the loss of control and to give them better damage so that they were less dependent upon the pet. But somewhere along the line Defenders wound up in the same boat.

I don't believe I've ever come straight out and said "Defenders can't solo" (and if you can find a quote of me saying that, well, I was being over dramatic). If I say something to that effect it's usually followed by a qualifier like "for [censored]", or "worth a damn", "to save their lives", etc.

I have said on a number of occasions that although I think it's possible for any Defender to solo, it's an unrewarding and unpleasant experience for most, and wasn't always like this. Some combinations of sets are better at it than others, but I still don't think any are all that good at it, at least not enough that I find it fun.

It does get easier as you get higher in level, again, depending upon the sets. I have a lvl 37 Dark/Rad Defender who is not too bad at soloing. As long as I don't raise the difficulty too high he rarely ever comes close to dying, but even with Tar Patch it takes a long time to kill things, and he often runs out of end.

It can be done, but it's not fun, unless you enjoy slow and laborious. And I keep coming back to the same two things: the imbalanced AT modifier and the ineffectiveness of Vigilance.

If the AT modifiers were rebalanced taking inherent damage buffs into account, Defenders would get a well-needed base damage increase of ~20%. This would put them back to 65% of Blaster damage when you include Defiance.

And if you changed Vigilance so that you got an endurance discount based upon the number of foes near you instead of the health of your teammates, then you'd get use out of it both solo and on teams. Basing it on the number of foes is appropriately thematic, and doesn't reward a crappy Defender while penalizing a really good one. Nor does it favor reactive sets like Empathy versus proactive sets like FF. And I think as we learned with Defiance 1.0, anything based on health is just not a good idea. Hell, even if they left Vigilance exactly as is and just added the Defender's health into the mix, it would still be grossly imbalanced, but at least you'd get to use it solo.

Kheldians and Tanks are the only other ATs that get inherents that are useless while solo. For Tanks it's no big deal as they don't need aggro control while solo. But it would be nice if they did something for Kheldians.

I'm not saying that soloists should get some kind of special benefit, but they shouldn't be penalized either. And right now, Defenders and Kheldians both get penalized for soloing.

Y'know, I just thought of something. I have 2 accounts. I should roll up a dummy toon and have him team up with one of my Defenders. Let him die at the beginning of a battle, and I should get a nice 56% endurance discount from Vigilance. Hmm... I'd be using 1/2 normal endurance, but would be fighting 2x the foes. An interesting test, something I just might play around with on the test server where I can see the numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.

Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??


[/ QUOTE ]

I played both TA/Psi and Storm/Energy to reasonable levels. (24+) I deleted them both to make way for other characters, not because they were unreasonable soloers.

Yes, defenders shine in teams. But no group of defender sets is unplayable solo. They may solo too slowly for your tastes or be built poorly for soloing, but every set is more than capable of it. To be so utterly awesome on a team...well, that's the tradeoff you're looking at. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet Tanks can do both. Scrappers can do both. Controllers do more than double the damage of a Defender with AoEs and Containment, get 88% of a Defender's buffs/debuff values, AND 125% of Defender mez values in their secondaries (yes, Controllers can use any mez power in their secondaries better than a Defender's primary). Why do you all accept this imbalance as gospel? Have years of Emmert's tyranny simply bled your souls dry?

Defenders once were very capable soloers. They are no longer. I just want everything to be balanced properly given the current game mechanics, not the mechanics of 4 years ago. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

[ QUOTE ]
This is totally off topic, but any Storm or Trick Arrow Defender that can't solo probably has no clue how to play the sets. Those are two of the stronger soloing sets.

Quite honestly, the only primaries that might have issues soloing quickly are Emp and FF solely due to their inability to buff damage, but that said, their only issue is speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really do get a kick when someone tries to tell me I don't know how to play a set because I say something derogatory about it. Tell me, what level is your Storm/Non-Sonic Defender, and how many levels did you solo through??

Storm has too many toggles and runs out of end too quickly. It also only has 1 high end cost resistance debuff power that can't be made perma, and typically doesn't last long enough to defeat an entire spawn. Oh, and no self heal or end recovery.

Trick Arrow only becomes viable after you get Disruption Arrow. Endurance isn't too much of a problem as you don't have any toggles, but with no self heal and the -resistance power late in the set, it's a pain. And let's not forget the sheer uselessness of Entangling Arrow and Flash Arrow, and the stupidly long time it takes to slap down Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and Acid Arrow -- that is if you're not already dead halfway thru that chain.

Actually, I've found Empathy to be one of the better soloists, simply because of self healing and recovery buffs. If you don't have to worry about endurance, and can regenerate or heal all your damage, you can just go to town. You have little to no downtime between spawns like other Defenders do. Without debuffs taking on bosses can be tough, but if you stick to heroic you shouldn't encounter any. And a lot if it depends on your secondary. Some are better against bosses than others.

FF is kinda middle of the road. Having only 1 toggle keeps end costs low and provides a decent amount of protection, but unless you pair it with Sonic it's pretty slow. You won't run dry like you will with Storm, Dark, or Rad, but you won't move very quickly either.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I for one would sure love to see a Dark/Sonic Defender solo an AV or GM without having to use an entire tray of blue skittles...

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if you can't afford IO's to boost your recovery, the IO system still frees up slots that you can use to slot End Reduc all over the place.

[ QUOTE ]
But they can't solo for [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]
Speak for yourself, my Rad/Sonic has been able to solo Invincible since level 6--and without using blue candy since around level 30.

[ QUOTE ]
by and large Defenders can't solo worth a damn.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't try to, you won't succeed. My 33 Emp/Rad has three attacks, but she is very good on a team. My FF/Dark is okay in both situations. Psynado's Storm/Psy is quite impressive all around. It just depends on your build.

[ QUOTE ]
And as I've stated this before numerous times, it's mostly due to AT modifiers that have not changed in 4 years, even though 9 out of 11 ATs have gotten inherent abilities that buff damage.

[/ QUOTE ]
What and the huh now? Defenders were the only ones not nerfed by i5 and i6.

This, really, is the reason that Defenders are the most powerful AT--they're still oldschool.

[ QUOTE ]
Defenders do significantly less damage than they should because of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Debatable. This is not CoV, we are not all wannabe Blasters.

[ QUOTE ]
Factor in that Vigilance is completely borked and does nothing for you at all...

[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed it for you. Anyway, you have to take it in context: "Negligence" was added only as a formality, since the other 11 AT's all had inherents at that point. It's not really supposed to be a buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you speak of specific builds, oddly enough those that all revolve around resistance debuffs... hmm...

Try playing a Defender that *can't* buff their own damage with multiple powers, like FF/Psi, or Trick Arrow/Archery, or Storm/Electricity.

Cherry picking the perfect combination of primary and secondary and then twinking them out with IO sets does not magically mean that's the way it is for the entire AT. That fact that the only way to have a decent solo Defender is to have multiple resistance debuffs, self heals, self recovery, or multiple IO sets only underscores there is a problem with the set. Even the most n00bish of players should be able to pick any two Defender sets that appeal to them and be able to efficiently solo without having to scour the forums for an optimum build guide or farm for influence to be able to afford set IO at 4 mil inf each.

Take any combination of Scrapper sets, and they are all effective solo and on teams. The same holds true of Controllers, Tanks, Corruptors, Dominators, Stalkers and Masterminds. Yes, some combinations are more effective than others, but even the worst matching sets are still effective.

You simply cannot say that about Defenders.

And Vigilance is not supposed to be a buff? So why then does every other AT get a useful inherent except Defenders? And you don't call that a nerf? Or at the very least imbalanced?

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, Mystic_Poobah, I can honestly say I haven't heard those views of Defenders before. I usually regard them as the being very potent, especially when you get more than a couple per team--not that Dark/Sonic, for example, is going to have much trouble solo (against anything... including AV's or even GM's at high levels). We have better duff/debuff than anything else, both in our primaries and in our secondaries, and we have a wide range of versatile power sets that let us go for just about any purpose--tanking, controlling, blasting, whatever.

Then again, my opinion could be slanted just because I dislike Corrupters and post-nerf Controllers, and your logic was based somewhat on a comparison to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I for one would sure love to see a Dark/Sonic Defender solo an AV or GM without having to use an entire tray of blue skittles...

Defenders are VERY potent, but only in numbers. Defenders absolutely shine when they are Defending on a team. But they can't solo for [censored]. Dark/Sonic or Empathy/Sonic I think are the two strongest combinations, but by and large Defenders can't solo worth a damn. They simply do not have enough endurance to run buffs/debuffs AND do sustainable damage. And as I've stated this before numerous times, it's mostly due to AT modifiers that have not changed in 4 years, even though 9 out of 11 ATs have gotten inherent abilities that buff damage. Defenders do significantly less damage than they should because of this. Factor in that Vigilance is completely borked and does nothing for you solo and you've got another huge nail in the coffin.

But as long as you like teaming Defenders are a blast. But it seems every time I try to play mine I quickly feel like a (de)buff bot, who can't even manage to take out a spider on the wall, let alone an actual critter. And that, frankly, infuriates me, because Defenders were once very enjoyable to play, both in teams and solo. But this is no longer true. At least not for me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even if that is the case, then why make Force Bubble a Tier 9 power? Why not make it more of a toggle buff, and move it down, and make some other short duration click power your Tier 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they will NEVER move powers around in established sets, nor change the core function of a power. This is A#1 taboo, as stated recently by Castle. So for now till the end of days, Force Bubble will be FFs tier 9, and it will always be some kind of AoE repel power. Any changes have to be made within that framework.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but nobody ever said that the Tier 9 power has to be the most powerful. Everybody just assumes that.

Just as an example, Foot Stomp is a very powerful attack, but going by Scrapper sets as a guide, you would find Knockout Blow in that slot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Foot Stomp get's its tier 9 status not because it does a lot of damage (it doesn't really), it's because it's the only AoE in the set, and is superior to powers like Whirling Hands in both damage, damage mitigation, and size of AoE.

Now it could have been put lower and switched with KOBlow, I think it's six of one half dozen of the other. But tanker sets aren't a good comparison against Defender sets.

We assume, and I think rightfully so, that a tier 9 powers should be greater or more powerful than a tier 8, and so on. As we level up the powers should be more and more powerful. Which makes some of the choices in the FF set even more bewildering.

I mean, Force Bolt is like Energy/Power Push. Repulsion Bomb is basically ranged Hand Clap. Detention Field is like any other cage power. Repulsion Field is a weaker version of Kinetics/Repel, which is available much earlier, and Force Bubble is a giant-sized version of Hurricane (also available much earlier) minus all the useful debuffs.

There is nothing new or original in FF after you get Dispersion Bubble. And what is available are in many cases the 1 stinker power in a set that no one takes (Power Push, Repel, Hand Clap, and the cage powers). The only useful mimic is Hurricane. But Force Bubble is a pale imitation of it, with no debuffs and one sole attribute, repel.

Even if they gave Force Bubble the same debuffs as Hurricane you'd still have a tier 6 powers available at lvl 12 doing the same thing as a tier 9 power available at 32.

So while most other Defender primaries seem to follow some kind of rhyme and reason with their tiers, FF does not. It's like they ran out of good FF ideas after 4 powers and decided to just recycle thematic powers from other sets without any thought as to their usefulness. And then again, maybe that was the intention, we'll never know. Maybe the reason the bottom 5 suck so badly is because the big 4 are so good. Who knows?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Repulsion Bomb] is for all intents and purposes a ranged version of Super Strength/Hand Clap. And when was the last time you saw a competent tank use THAT power?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point. And notice how much issue there is with the Thugs Bruiser continually using that power. Yet I consider it very unlikely the devs would make Hand Clap a knockdown power, because by dropping all the foes right at the Tanker's feet, you set up the potential for chained knockdown. The devs assumed it would be useful to knock foes away from you, but underestimated the impact of having to chase them down again and reestablish aggro, and aura powers such as Invincibility and Rise to the Challenge.

It's a Catch-22. You can't knock them down without making it too powerful, and can't knock them away without making it too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

But remember, Hand Clap and Repulsion Bomb were created waaaay back in beta, long before GDN and ED, back when critters were dumb as sticks and there was no need for "aggro management" cause threat hadn't been written into the AI yet. Back when an INV tank could hit over 100% defense using Invincibility, and could do 380% damage all on his own.

Those powers were not really all that popular then, but it was a lot less of an issue if someone used it. At most it was simply annoying. Now, 3+ years later, with toons a shadow of their former selves, aggro control is absolutely necessary, and anything that tosses foes around mindlessly is not just annoying, but deadly.

The game has changed. The powers have not.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the game engine won't allow it...

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be implemented as a self-affecting buff aura, like Accelerate Metabolism. Not going to happen, but it IS possible to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'know how much I would LOVE it if all ally-shield powers worked like this, even if they didn't buff the caster? Instead of having to cast 14 shields every 4 minutes you would only have to cast 2 AoE powers. How frakkin sweet would THAT be???

And like I said, I wouldn't even care if they didn't have a +self component. It certainly would reduce 99% of the tedium involved playing Sonic and FF.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...but in an oh crap situation, one where you might actually use this power, you certainly don't want entire classes of critters being able to ignore or resist it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The animation time is too long for an oh crap power, the duration is too short, and the overall effect just not good enough. When the crap hits the fan, this is not going to stop it.

EM pulse is an oh crap power. Use it and the team gets 20-40 seconds of breathing space. Repulsion Bomb is a run of the mill power - and to be competitive, run of the mill powers cannot be situational.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I never said it was a GOOD 'oh crap' power, I just said that's its only legitimate use. I can't see any other good reason for sending mobs flying in all directions unless there is a problem.

And it's NOT a competitive power, hence why so few take it. It is for all intents and purposes a ranged version of Super Strength/Hand Clap. And when was the last time you saw a competent tank use THAT power?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are? I just need more sleep then. :P Didn't see anything about the Shields suggestions so wasn't sure. (the defender able to use them on themselves, but PFF cancelling it) Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi willnova. As PK said, that most likely wouldn't happen, especially since it's impossible using this engine to target yourself. But a suggestion has been entered to swap the +DEF values on Dispersion and the targetted bubbles, resulting in more DEF for the Defender, maintaining the value provided to a teammate within Dispersion, but lowering the value provided to a teammate outside of Dispersion. I think that suggestion is one you might agree with.

[ QUOTE ]
It *should* be, if it were the case. I'm not any more privy to the numbers than anyone else, but I'm betting it's just not the case statistically. I think it's more of an issue where there may be some that simply don't play or have abandoned the set, there are more that simply accept it as is, taking the big 4 and ignoring the rest in favor of secondary or pool powers, and make the best of it, either in an active or barely-active playstyle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think the problem is that FF is shared by three AT's, two of which are the most powerful in the game, and the last (FF Defenders spcifically) one of the least powerful in the game. That makes for a balancing headache, and the devs have shown no desire to treat the FF Defender powerset as separate from Controllers and MM's. Quite frankly I think that FF Defenders will never see improvement, because the developers think FF works great for Controllers and MM's.

FF has always been a better secondary than a primary. It's no coincidence that it didn't make it into CoV as a primary; they've learned that the current set isn't appropriate as a primary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that has a lot to do with it too. In examining how FF performs they not only look at Defenders, but Controllers and Masterminds too. And as I've stated numerous times, the set does NOT underperform, as the 4 big powers work very, very well, both as a primary and secondary set.

The benefits of using FF as a Controller secondary is that you can negate alot of the uncontrolled knockback by simply using your AoE immobilize power (turning Repulsion Bomb into an additional AoE disorient - now with even more containment damage!) and/or using your pet to suck up the aggro you get from using Repulsion Field and Force Bubble.

None of these options are available to the Defender. But I still stand by my original statement -- you can be an FF Defender, take only the big 4 powers, and still give better protection to your team than any other Defender, hands down. There is no NEED for the other 5 powers. And for many people who use the FF set, either as a Defender or something else, that's enough for them.

While it would be nice if those other 5 powers were reworked into a form that would provide some variety for the FF Defender, I simply don't think it's going to happen. Castle will ultimately decide his time is better spent fixing sets that are statistically underperforming instead of spicing up sets that perform fine but are just bland.

It's the same reason, and catch-22, that's going to keep Defenders as the suck-all AT for a long time to come. Since it's very difficult to solo a Defender, hardly no one does it; they all seek out teams. And since Defenders perform very well on teams datamining Defender performance is going to show nothing unusual.

Now if someone decided to datamine Defender performance, debt, and leveling speed while SOLO, and only SOLO, I think they'd see a vastly different picture. The question is, will anyone be bothered to do it, and if so, will anyone care?

I'm beginning to believe the devs are quite content with Defenders just the way they are; with their vastly imbalanced AT modifiers and horribly inadequate inherent ability -- so long as the datamining says Defenders are fine, to hell with what actual players are telling you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are? I just need more sleep then. :P Didn't see anything about the Shields suggestions so wasn't sure. (the defender able to use them on themselves, but PFF cancelling it) Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, that one is missing but honestly, that will never happen. It just won't. It WOULD make us into tankers, and the devs will never do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the game engine won't allow it. We are not permitted to target ourselves for this very reason -- they do not want us using teammate-only powers on ourselves.

FF is not the only set with this kind of disparity. Empathy, Sonic, and Kinetics share it as well. Yeah, it makes no sense why I can cast Clear Mind on a teammate but not myself, but "game balance" (or lack thereof) dictates the Defender is always weaker and less protected than his teammates.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we do about half the damage of Blasters due to Defiance (even though it's supposed to be 65%), and Controllers who share our powers only get the lower % they're supposed to on non-mez effects.

Wow... and the devs see absolutely nothing wrong with this double standard? No wonder why so many people (myself included) have virtually given up playing Defenders. Why would you play an AT when other ATs can do nearly everything you do significantly better, not to mention a crapload of things you can only DREAM of being able to do.

JUST...NOT...RIGHT...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, keep in mind that you're comparing three things here. You're comparing Defenders to Blasters, Controllers to Defenders, and Blasters to Controllers. Each of these, in theory, specializes in one of three areas, damage, defense, and control. Blasters are supposed to be good at damage, not so good at defense, but still have some control. Controllers are supposed to be good at control, not so good at damage, but still have some defense. And Defenders are supposed to be good at defense, not quite so good at control, but at least have some damage.

The problem is that for most Defenders, you're talking about damage that can be boosted by their Primary. So rather than doing 65% damage, or 50% of a Blaster's damage, they can do like 85% of the base modifier, or (surprise, suprise...) 75% of a Blaster's damage. FF doesn't get that option. But for those that do, they're doing 75% of a Blaster's damage, when a Blaster doesn't have anywhere NEAR 75% of a Defender's defense. (maybe a solo FF Defender's defense, but not a Rad Defender's defense)

The problem is, that while a Defender can use his buffs to increase his damage, a Controller can, too. And Controllers have Containment, as well. Really, Controllers needed containment, you need damage to be able to solo. But it messed up the balance. Controllers now have okay damage, okay defense, and really good control. There's no longer a big gap between the damage a Defender can do, and what a Controller can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not really. I made a post a few pages back in comparing Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders as they share the same AT modifiers. And even for Defender sets that get resistance debuffs, the value of the debuffs drops sharply as you fight higher level and higher class foes. So it might be 30% against a white minion, but only 15% against a +2 boss.

And you forget that it takes endurance to run these buffs and debuffs -- endurance that many Defenders, especially solo, won't have due to the borked implementation of Vigilance. So even though you *might* approach 75% of a Blaster's damage in certain situations, it's gonna cost you twice as much endurance; even MORE if you're running multiple buffs/debuffs simultaneously. Trust me, really, it DOESN'T work out well for the Defender, especially solo.

You don't really see how bad it is until you do solo, even on heroic. On a team the Defender is usually too busy defending to be blasting much, or even worrying about it. But soloing is where all the flaws shine brightly, and you get to see exactly how frakked up the entire AT really is.

And there is NO comparison between Controllers and Defenders. Controllers do more damage, have significantly better control, and only slightly weaker buffs/debuffs. All the benefits of the Defender without any of the weaknesses. And nearly all Controllers can solo at a good pace, even without the pet.

I said this before too; if you have any doubt, roll up an identical Defender and Corruptor -- same sets, same powers, slotted the same way. Then go solo each for a few levels and see it all for yourself. Corruptors do significantly more damage due to Scourge, yet have buffs/debuffs that are only a small % less effective than a Defender (roughly the same level as Controllers). It's by no means balanced; not even close.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a certain amount of logic here tho. Most Defender tier 9 powers are short-duration, long recharge click powers, making them "situational" by that nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think the point is that while there are some more "click based" Tier 9s, there are also some that are much more generally useful. Dark Servant, for instance, while it may be a click power and may have a long recharge, I don't think you can say that the Dark Servant is a short duration effect to be used situationally. And even powers like Adrenaline Boost and Fulcrum Shift you are very likely going to want to use them as soon as they become available, you won't be standing around waiting for an emergency before you try to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark Servant, even though you can have it up all the time and is a nice companion, really doesn't do all that much. It slowly cycles through 3 powers, Twilight Grasp, Tenebrous Tentacles, and Petrifying Gaze. You need to be standing right next to it to benefit from TG as the radius is small; TT is a nice immobilize but does very minor damage and is also a short, narrow cone; and PG's only real usefulness due to its extremely short duration is stacking with your own to stop a boss. Even though it supposedly can cast Darkest Night and has an always-on PbAoE Chill of the Night, I don't think I've ever seen them used (I could be wrong, my Dark/Rad Defender has been shelved for a LONG time). It's significantly more useful solo or duo than on large teams. I'm not saying it's a bad power, nor a situational one; far from it. I *love* pets; it's just not a GREAT pet, merely an OK one, and hence why we can have it up and running all the time.

And in regard to other tier-9s being situational, I think it all depends upon what you're doing and what your team is like. If the team is generally doing OK you may not see any value in constantly casting Adrenaline Boost every time it comes up (like you'd do with fortitude). Some might just for the hell of it thinking, well, it can't hurt, but some might sit on it till it's really necessary, ensuring it's recharged and ready for those "oh crap" moments.

Some powers like Lightning Storm and Fulcrum Shift have much shorter recharges and can be used much more often -- less situationally as it were -- but FS is really only useful at the beginning of big battles and is very location-dependent. And Lightning Storm can't be controlled and doesn't move. You cast it and hope it attacks what you want it to attack.

Each power is useful in their own way, and situational in their own way. Some more than others. But their utility and strength is typically balanced by their recharge times. The really strong ones have long recharges while the less powerful ones are shorter.

[ QUOTE ]
And even if that is the case, then why make Force Bubble a Tier 9 power? Why not make it more of a toggle buff, and move it down, and make some other short duration click power your Tier 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they will NEVER move powers around in established sets, nor change the core function of a power. This is A#1 taboo, as stated recently by Castle. So for now till the end of days, Force Bubble will be FFs tier 9, and it will always be some kind of AoE repel power. Any changes have to be made within that framework.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Datamining probably shows that the set performs well compared to other sets for all ATs that can take it, and therefore doesn't need any adjustments. Unfortunately datamining can't tell Castle just how boring the set is to play. And I fear no matter how often we tell him, it's not gonna make a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is datamining that can demonstrate that there is a problem, even if the performance of the set seems up to par. First of all, there is the number of characters of that power set available. Whether or not Force Field performs great or not really isn't important if teams can't find FFers because no one is playing them. Plus, it should be extremely easy to determine if a character levels extremely slowly solo when compared to on a team. That should be a warning flag, or if it isn't, the devs should change their attitude so that it is considered one.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true, but like I said, I don't think FF throws up any red flags in datamining in terms of performance or leveling, and that's where I think the devs usually stop. If they see a discrepancy in terms of performance then they might start to look deeper. But I don't think FF has ever been an underperformer. Just under-interesting.

And lets not forget -- although we are forumites, are very vocal, and have very straight up ideas as to what we like and don't like about FF, we are not necessarily the majority. I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of FF Defenders that see it as a great, casual, laid back set -- where they can join a team, earn lots of XP, and all they need to do is throw up some bubbles every 4 minutes and blast once in awhile. So where we see it as dull and boring compared to other sets, they see it as "CoH easy mode" where they can earn lots of XP and not have to do that much. Different strokes for different folks.

[ QUOTE ]
If players are getting frustrated with Force Fields and this is having an effect on the game, then that should be verifiable by datamining.

[/ QUOTE ]

It *should* be, if it were the case. I'm not any more privy to the numbers than anyone else, but I'm betting it's just not the case statistically. I think it's more of an issue where there may be some that simply don't play or have abandoned the set, there are more that simply accept it as is, taking the big 4 and ignoring the rest in favor of secondary or pool powers, and make the best of it, either in an active or barely-active playstyle.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's try that logic with PFF: Tenebrous Tentacles on a large spawn, pull aggro, turn on PFF, get wailed on by a bunch of +2's for ten seconds before anything happens. NOT COOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, you already have to deal with that with stealth powers. It's not a big deal, it just requires thinking ahead. If you want PFF to go up, then you make sure you aren't attacked for ten seconds. Of course, that makes it less useful for "turtling up" so you can play psuedo-Tanker for the team, but that's sort of the point. Instead of using the power to do something your Archetype is not really designed for in emergencies, you can use it to protect yourself considerably better the rest of the time.

This is not to say that I support making PFF a suppressable defense power, but you're ignoring what you could gain because of what you don't want to lose.

Personally, I would rather PFF allow me to defend my team with it up, even if I can't shoot anything. If it suppressed when I fired, but allowed me to use Dispersion Bubble even with it up, I'd certainly spend a great deal of time with it at full strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's exactly what they DON'T want us doing -- hiding in PFF with all our other toggles running, dropping it every 4 minutes to refresh teammate bubbles. It's the same reason they made drastic changes to the MM version of PFF, like the super long recharge and inability to control your pets.

I think you've got one of two options with PFF -- either leave it the way it is or drop the defense to Deflection/Insulation Shield levels and let you attack normally.

Honestly I kinda like PFF the way it is, as both an "oh crap" power and a "travel with impunity" power. I highly doubt the devs will ever consider changing it.