Blue_Mourning

It's been my experience too, but maybe he has more recharge in his build so he's able to get more of those attacks out? Me, I just did the same thing on my blaster so meh. Maybe I can take some video.

Only on teams that refuse to use the tools that are open to them and open to all.

Let me say this slowly and maybe you will understand me.

You. Are. At. x4. Difficulty.

It. Is. Meant. To. Be. A. Challenge.

You. Have. Not. Addressed. These. Points. Anywhere. Despite. The. Question. Being. Brought. Up. Several. Times.

Why. Should. You. Be. Able. To. Attempt. A. x4. Challenge. Without. Much. Difficulty.?

No, you know what? I'm tired of this argument. Forget it. You win. You deserve mez protection. You deserve to almost never die on something that's supposed to be a challenge. You deserve to never be frustrated while fighting spawns for 4+ team members. You deserve whatever, because I no longer care. And because if I have failed to convince you that having trouble at +2 x4 by now I never will.

Why you feel that you should almost never die against these kinds of difficulty settings is beyond me, and why you would go with your cup open and ask for something to make it easier is also beyond me. Should the devs give it, fine. Whatever.

But you said you didn't have any problems with any other group except for Longbow. So if that's the case isn't that argument better suited for saying "Longbow are too hard" than for a reduction of mez across the board? I just asked this and you simply told me the mez Rikti provide you with isn't heavy enough, but those mez durations are pretty standard. It's not like Malta's huge stuns or Longbows (I'm taking your word that they're long, I don't remember one way or the other)....so huh?

If you have *no* problem with anyone else, and it's not a systemic problem as you seem to suggest, then mez isn't the crippling effect that you suggest. I would suggest that it's the mez along with the other wonderfully tasty Longbow effects, like the -res grenade.

So why are you fighting for mez protection instead of a reduction in ability for Longbow? Seriously, Rikti have just as many mez opportunities as longbow...actually I believe they have more because don't Rikti Minions all have a chance to stun?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know why dark hasn't been proliferated yet, because the devs haven't said. I suspect it's for these and more reasons, but I'm really tired of, in this thread and others, people speaking as if they have some authority of why something is or isn't without dev support.

At least when I speak I'm saying what I think. I'm not saying what devs think.

Are you still soloing at x4?

Wait wait wait wait. I fight slow, and you're saying it's a difficult enemy group and you're expecting to zerg it putting down 3 spawns in less than a minute? It's possible. But then if you're putting down that many spawns in a little bit of time do you need mez protection?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "you know this enemy group is really hard because of mez", and then say "all of my fights are 30 seconds, tops!"

The power says "Ranged (AoE)" on it.

Isn't it up every 3 minutes which means it's up every 1.5 minutes if you enhance it fully, which would make it an up every other fight power right?

Howling Twilight is a Ranged AoE like fireball without the fire. Or actually, the ball. And Shadowfall is true stealth, it just isn't max stealth like, say, a stalker, or Superior Invisibility.

Well no, here on the team in question, it's the strategy. Once you saw that the strategy didn't work, why didn't you try a different one. Different strategies for different groups, otherwise, why have different enemy types? Solo....I can't speak to solo. I can *try* running my rad defender solo on x4 to see what you mean, but that rad defender isnt' built for solo anyway, so I can't say she's going to be effective.

Also, why couldn't you open half the time with Howling Twilight, which does a pretty good AoE stun, and the other half hte time have the MM open with Gang War/Pets? (recharges maybe?) and then also sometimes open with Tar Patch (and Rain of Fire if you've got it) from around a corner?

Also just for the record, I know blueside better, but it's not like I never play redside. I've got several high level AT's redside, all of them except the stalker "Squishy" (if you can call an MM squishy....) (a couple of corrupters, 3 MM's)

You're misunderstanding my point. If the other MM had been a dark Mez still isn't a problem for MM's. Not at all. They get mezzed, their pets keep on trucking. So mez was a problem for one whole person on your team.

With stacked darks I would open with tar patch out of sight every time, send in pets or widow to take the alpha and then fireball/firebreath/Rain of Fire (any one of these in combination with any other one of these, or any other AoE from anohter person in the group) should go a long way to defeating the entire spawn in a fair bit of safety once the alpha is mitigated.

Actually, that strategy would persist even in your team set up and the MM wasn't casting Enforced Morale, if it were me. That's a tasty strategy and one that I've used several times myself.

There are a lot of options to get over what you didn't have on that team. If you don't mind me asking, what was your strategy exactly?

By making sure that someone else could help them when they eventually do get mezzed.

One power can and should make a hell of a difference. I played an STF with a regen scrapper who didn't take Integration. He kept dying. We would call a regen scrapper who doesn't take Integration a noob and then flambe him on these boards. I'm not saying you personally would have, but I'm saying that the boards at large would have.

I have a Thugs/Pain myself at level 38, and I'm fairly impressed with the build. I *hate* Enforced Morale. I hate casting it. But I still occasionally do it because it's useful. I've fought and won against heavy mezzing groups on a team that didn't have any mez protection whatsoever, and you're right, it's a sight more difficult than doing it when you have it, but not insurmountable.

Can I ask what level your group was? I'm pretty sure I'm usually accuracy capped against enemies +2 once I'm over lvl 30 and considering how you're talking I can only assume that you're over level 30. And before you start saying "It's because you're IO'd out!" I'm not by level 30. I'm either using full SO's or generic IO's, and at level 30 there's not *that* much of a difference. So no, your playstyle doesn't jibe with mine.

Put it this way - a scrapper or a tanker without his or her mez protection is not useful in that capacity. You're playing a build where you can give the entire TEAM mez protection, except yourself (and you're playing a build where your pets can keep doing massive amounts of damage while you are mezzed), and complaining about mez?

If it weren't Enforced Morale it would be something else. If no power is crucial, then why have a powerset system at all. It's like playing a defender, not taking any offensive attacks that do significant damage and complaining that you're a low damage weenie. Why? You *had* the tool. You *had* it, or at least could have had it. If it's not mez protection is an AoE mez. Would you complain that the game is too hard if you never took any of the AoE mezzes on a controller/dominator and then said "I can't control or dominate anything!".

Every power has a use, however small or however large, and everyone has to make a decision on what they're giving up. For some powers, like say Blackhole, people don't feel they're giving up much, and with how group dymanics work in CoH maybe they're not. But every power you're giving up something. If I felt as you did that Mez could completely disable a team of 3 every time and it's impinging on my playstyle and I had a handy dandy power such as Enforced Morale just sitting there in my powerset, and I *didn't* take it? Why? Why would you then complain that you're struggling too much to manage when you didn't take one of the tools to manage that struggle?

And for the record, I don't feel that way about mez. I don't feel like an entire group that mezzes could or should completely destroy a team of any type.

I am not telling you to learn how to play. I'm telling you the same thing I would tell to a repairman who doesn't have a screwdriver in his toolbox that complains that he can't tighten that last screw enough. Why didn't you bring the damn screwdriver if you knew you would need to deal with screws?

Even then, you're right, Enforced Morale shouldnt have made a great deal of difference. Over level 30 everyone should have a decent amount of accuracy, and if they're not slotted for it, they're not optimally slotted for it. Why should you then expect to team at +2 when you're not adequately prepared to fight these enemies either from toolbox perspective or a slotting perspective. Also the team shoudl have had at least some defense between the widow and darkest night, but whatever.

There's a lot of layers against the mez that either didn't exist or outright failed on this team. Several times. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and my personal play experience is lying to me or I don't team with elite players who can solo AV's. That would be extreme luck.

I have team wiped against Longbow. It happens. But actually this is a really good option to show where squishies can really shine and scrappers really can't. When I looked over at the regen scrapper on the STF I was running and saw he spent almost all his time mezzed, I asked, "Why don't you have Integration?" But at the end of the day the single power he took only affected him, and thank God it wasn't an Mo. You're a squishy. You have the power to give mez protection to the entire team, or to not. That's the difference.

And all it takes to remove a mezzer from the equation is to mez him first. There are very few squishies who literally have *nothing* working for them while mezzed. Emps, Pain Doms (wait, click resistance, so maybe not)...maybe sonics? I don't know that set so well (oh wait, sonics have mez protection save for sleeps, but sleeps tend to be short, and easily broken). Dominators/Controllers have their pets, most debuffers having lingering debuffs, most defenders/Corrupters having lingering effects that can be of help to tide them through, especially when you're fighting 2 - 3 (or even 4) enemies while solo. Blasters can attack WHILE mezzed. MM's don't even do the bulk of their damage directly.

Futurias, please answer this....what is your definition of a usual solo difficulty setting? I'll tell you mine. +2 x2 no bosses (or bosses depending on the strength of the set). All of my characters, upon reaching level 30 should be able to solo that setting otherwise I won't be happy. Interestingly enough one of my favorite characters now couldn't solo that at level 30, but that's neither here nor there.

Why is extrapolating from the team size and powersets ridiculous when I have no other information to go by? I have my experience and I have what they're telling me and it doesn't sound right. And I'm not what I consider to be a really "good" player. I'm a great tank, I'm a great troller. I'm a terrible blaster, seriously, I'm on crack or something. And I die a lot. Very very few of my deaths are due to mez, but I do die a lot.

Why is asking "What happened to Enforced Morale?" Or why were they feared? Or why was the widow getting mezzed and dying? not valid? What else am I supposed to do? Say:

"Oh, your play experience that jibes in no way with mine has completely changed my mind!" And for the recrod I'm lumping my "testing" in there too. Because I didn't post much taht anyone could use.

So I'm not entirely sure what you're doing Fan, other than trying to poke someone with a pointy stick.

I think this is a kind of interesting argument, and it's generally been civil. If I offended you Eiko, please understand it wasn't purposeful. I don't think you need to l2p, I don't think you're a bad player. I don't even know you. I think you had trouble against a group that I've had trouble against, but on the same token, been on teams constructed similar to yours that has no problems. It's a catch 22 sometimes. And if BL_Angel hates me now, I'm sorry. I'm finding your points interesting. Otherwise...meh.

[Edited because my tone the first time was mean and unnecessary]

It could have been a problem beyond just the mezzing. A dark should be able to keep the group in fear most if not all the time, keep their acc mostly floored, as long as the widow takes the alpha...or the MM...and why the heck were you having mez problems with a pain MM on the team? Enforced Morale is a PITA to cast constantly but the widow didn't need it, only you did, so buywew? And yes, buywew is a highly technical term. It means excessive confusion.

In all seriousness though, I can't think of too many enemies that particular team set up should have problems with even if everyone is just using an SO build or a generic IO build. Maybe it's that Longbow can be really tough, but I would like to reiterate that Longbow can be really tough for melee AT's with mez protection. Those auto hit? -res grenades that nullifiers throw at 40+ can get just nasty.

My point here is that your lack of success against this particular enemy group sounds like a build problem with someone in the group, or a team tactics issue rather than excessive mezzing.

If I'm wrong someone should speak up, but that's my take on it.

What AT's were you using? Doms should be lockign down spawns like trollers do, Corrupters should be disabling spawns like defenders do....I can think of several heavy mezzing situations that a team of defenders would absolutely destroy.

Actually, the squishies redside seem far far far more able to deal with mez than the squishies blueside, which seems appropriate because there's, in my experience, more dangerous enemies redside than blue, but that's true for the melee AT's as well. LB Nullifiers are bad for everyone, only a handful of melee AT's are able to ignore PPD's glue guns in the mid 30's, and CoT are a nightmare from 1 - 40, which is hilariously true bluesdie as well. In addition there are FAR more debuffing enemies redside as well. . .

And Redside, Corrupters do more damage than defenders, MM's are the most ridiculous overpowered class I know of, and the only thing that's keeping them afloat is that they're possibly the most boring to play (seriously, I solo'd an AV with an SO build and that was my FIRST build on an MM). Dominators do more damage 1 - 50 than controllers do, (at high levels controllers are an absolute force to be reckoned with, but most have to be at least 32 for that to be true) especially now after the change to the out of domination damage. Before that I might have agreed that doms are hard to deal with.

I have never in 2 1/2 years of playing, found 2 mezzers in a spawn to be absolutely crippling, and while teamed, I've never found a whole group of them to be crippling to entire groups. And this is after I zerged Tsoo with a team of 4 blasters at level 25(?) I don't consider myself a good squishy player. I don't consider myself good at making their builds. I'm probably best making builds for tanks scrappers, and controllers, with quality going in that order.

It boggles the mind how people could find any spawn in this game completely disabling to an entire group. Did you team wipe? That happens. Did the entire team wipe several times a mission? Sometimes that happens too. Bad teams happen. I'm not sure you can blame that on lack of mez protection.

I agree on the maps, I agree on the mobs, but I think that your initial goal is a bad one. Not all AT's are going to be equal in dealing with mez effects, and nor should they be. On the same token, not all powersets within the AT are going to deal with all status and debuffing effects well. There's a good reason why, once I leveled my kat/dark for the first time (it was my first 50!) I found that while everyone was complaining and screaming bloody murder about carnies I completely destroyed them...didn't even have a hard time about it. It wasn't until later that I started having an issue when I took a fire/SS tank in and tanked for a group of 8 that I understood why they were a nightmare for so many AT's.

A fire scrapper and a dark scrapper are both going to deal with carnies very differently and one of them is going to have a much much harder time of it. Should we normalize that because the fire scrapper can't deal with psi or endurance debuffs well? Should I normalize the performance gap there? Or should a dark scrapper also perform as well as an invuln scrapper does against Cimerorans?

My point is we don't *want* everything normalized. In a team MMO that isn't a FPS and you have an AT system you have to be able to figure out how they'll interact on a team. I like the idea that there should be a normalized level of difficulty that each AT and powerset has to reach while solo, but this is *not* a solo game.

So in a game that's not solo, why should everyone have no difference in how they deal with mez effects - or at least have alittle to no overlap in what they can deal with in terms of mezzing?

I have less of a problem with your testing procedure - it is certainly better than mine mostly because I didn't want to spend all of my time this weekend testing - but I have a serious problem with what you're apparently looking for. What you're going to find is that blasters and defenders have the most problems scaling to mob size (enter x numbers of blasters and defenders saying "well I FARM maps set for 8! You just can't play! They'd be right) while controllers, scrappers and tankers obviously do. That's because as an AT all of them have more defensive abilities than you need to have while solo. As a whole defenders kind of do, but debuffing and buffing scales better to mob size when on a team....it doesn't help as much solo as straight armor or mass mezz effects do.

Please keep testing, but when you find that blasters and defenders don't scale as well to big mobs with mez, I'm going to say "That's not necessarily a reason to add mez protection to let them".

The reason I'm asking this isn't because I like starting fights. The reason I'm asking is because I find an upper bounds test on any AT that's probably IO'd out (no matter what) is probably not helpful to this discussion, unless you also define what all AT's shoudl be able to handle and what should be a really really hard test for AT's. The devs didn't think people would want to necessarily be able to solo at +5 non trivially for instance. I don't think you're interested in that, but finding out where you do think the cap where challenge should become non-trivial would help.

For instance, do you feel that an AT that's designed for team play should solo just as easily as one not designed for team play or team support?

What would be much much more helpful is some kind of actual demonstration that at what you deem as a trivial level of challenge AT's without passive mez protection suffer above and beyond what should be considered a trivial problem. Otherwise your test just demonstrates what you're capable of with your IO'd build on a map that you cherry picked against enemies that you've chosen. Which isn't helpful to the discussion of "Do Squishies need Mez protection to function in a solo situation that is supposed to be a trivial challenge for all AT's.

I would agree. What I'm trying to figure out is at what point do you say "Ahhh, screw it, I can solo at X difficulty" and call it good on a squishy. Maybe you're not at that point yet, but that's essentially why a lot of people in this thread find it a waste of time.

Is this what you consider a solo test for a character in CoH? Because it is certainly not what i might, at least not on a consistent character by character basis.