BeautifulEnd

I'd say so based on reverse induction from the Praetorians.

Yeah, if used with a good controller, or even the elec primary, /fire can be the source of most of your damage easily.

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Here's how you can tell blasters are generally useless. Try to think of a single team, a single situation, a single time in game where a team trying to decided between two potential teammates would say "No, lets not take the scrapper, let's take the blaster!"

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An AV with a heavy PBAoE attack.

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I counter with asking which AV? So far, my Regen hasn't had too much trouble with the straight damage of any AVs, let alone a of shoot AoE. And I'm generally smart enough to back of a second before Nightstar or Anti-Matter nukes.

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You seem to have a large number of characters _Ilr_(as do I), can you say that some other AT is as hard to solo at the finale as blasters?

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Well no I really can't. But some Defenders and my DA scrapper(That didn't take tough or Weave or the Leaping Pool) feel pretty close. Infact she'd be just as weak as a Blaster without Fitness and Hasten. ...And even weaker if the Primary had been Claws.

I know a worst-case scenario is hard to prove. But ask yourself, would you really want to find out first hand?

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Well, that is a heavily un-optimized scrapper, which may anyway be a little better than my heavily optimized blaster.

But yeah, some defender types do suffer the same soloing problems as we blasters, but they do get the pay off of getting better in teams.

Over all, it just seemed like people are saying that blasters are being greedy by wanting to do what pretty much every other AT does anyway. I think they are just wanting what everyone else has.

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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.

Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.

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Shh, not so Loud... One of the Controllers or Tankers I already adopted might hear ya. Even my DA picks up Empaths and Kinetics controllers cuz I never have enough Endurance on my own to Control "Invicible" spawns and attack them at the same time ...I'm even working on adopting a High-Level blapper to help my DA too but he still plays too much WoW right now ...why a Blapper? Oddly enough, Total Focus does just enough damage and Disorient to make up for the Damage and Stunning I'd usually be doing on my own if I had enough Endurance to attack them myself, LoL.

[/ QUOTE ]I hope that was a long post ILR... because I'm ignoring you.



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Well he was talking to me anyway.

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The thing is almost no other AT, even defenders and controllers (well, poor Emps and FFs, and I'm all for them getting some help as well) need others to fight things that most blasters would never even try.


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Dude, that is so post-32 thinking.

Not a dig or anything. You're very reasonable. But pre-32 is the same murder for controllers that post-32 is for Blasters.

Post-32 is a worse place to have it, but it sucks either way.

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Oh, I very much agree controllers and defenders have a problem earlier on. I don't want them to be not changed. And as I said, I'm fine with us just being good in teams post-32. But in terms of time spent our "rough patch" as blasters is much longer, and results in more deaths than the similar spots of controllers and defenders (well at least on mine. I must confess that my defender is only lvl 19 and my controllers are 19 and 14).

And as I said earlier _Ilr_ really hit on a good thing with "Adopt a Controller". Helps us both get over our respective humps. If more blasters did that, more would be satisfied.

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Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.

Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.

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Sadly is Right! WAY too many posters in this Thread are just crying "GodMode me !!!" like it's the only way they think they can be Balanced. ..Especially Heph who's back for his usual song and dance on the subject. The actual number of people talking specifically about Shining in Team Play can be counted on one hand. It doesn't look like the Devs will be getting much useable unfiltered information from this thread

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See, I'd be satisfied with shining in teams. Hell, to be honest, my blaster is satisfied right now. It is all the other Powersets that I'd rather see have their own place, and do as well as mine (yeah I know that elec is supposed to be gimp, but. . .).

The thing is almost no other AT, even defenders and controllers (well, poor Emps and FFs, and I'm all for them getting some help as well) need others to fight things that most blasters would never even try.

I personally don't see why blasters being the same would be that unfair. You seem to have a large number of characters _Ilr_(as do I), can you say that some other AT is as hard to solo at the finale as blasters?

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Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.

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Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.

Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers

...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.

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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.

Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.

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This is a sad fact I noted in another of these Blaster Woes threads. In an ideal world Mr. Defense/Defense and Mr. Offense/Offense should want to team with each other, and the two of them together should make any two Offense/Defense ATs look like pikers.

But, that's not how it is. The two ATs need help in the exact opposite ends of the game. The low level powers controllers have do little to assist blasters even if they wanted help, and the same is true of what blastters are good at the point where controllers get their pets.

Controllers often say "the best pet in my arsenal is a scrapper". God, if only we could replace scrapper with blaster in that sentence!

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Hey, I love teaming with controllers. Me and a friendly Fire/Kin tore through the Rikti Crash site. We only had to stop because we got tired (both our sets are very click happy in terms of defense).

I seriously do think _Irl_'s comment was genious, even if it was perhaps meant as a joke.

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Why is ranged/control overpowered? We're talking about blasters being to controllers as controllers are to defenders.

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Ooh, ouch, I wouldn't go there
There's a whole platoon of folks in the Defender forum quite unhappy with the actual Stats on that whole situation.

Infact My own controllers have lead me to be rather disgusted with the situation as well as I was simply a "BuffBot with pets. No one wanted CrowdControl, they just wanted a Defender that summoned Mini-scrappers

...Odly enough here's a bunch of Blasters saying that they'd be Balanced if they got more Ranged Control. ...Well here's what ya do, dig around the low level areas and find one of the dozens of controllers Looking for a Team for the last hour and SK him up to help you "solo" your mission.

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You know, thats so obvious it's brilliant! Controllers of our level can't be bother, but those 16s brawling for hour after hour in Steel Canyon would sure love a helpful friend. And they'll be a huge help.

Be a Blaster. Adopt a controller. Hell, maybe after you've helped him get to 32, he'll even let you still hang out with him.

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Why is ranged/control overpowered?

[/ QUOTE ] How do you make a control power 75% (or 66%) as effective, then they have a simple 2-4 scale of magnitude? If you lower it by one, you make them horribly weak. If you don't lower them, controllers become useless by comparison.
I think what you end up doing is severely limiting the targets. I think there wouldn't be much problem with blasters having some single-target control effects in their secondary...

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How about mezz length? That seems about right. To bad none of the control primaries fit my concept. BE would probably be a defender if that is what had happened. FF/elec.

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How bout weaker controls. Like immobilizes, slows and single target holds, but not AE holds.

Oh, right, Blasters already have those and IT'S NOT ENOUGH!

Nor will it ever be enough and be balanced because if you give blasters enough defense to deliver their full offense solo, why would they want to do anything but solo?

Blasters are supposed to shine in a team. That means two things. #1 they shouldn't be able to reach their full potential without a team and #2 when on a team, they should be able to.

Sadly, #2 is not true, but that's what needs to be fixed. You seem to want to change #1.

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Me? No. I just didn't see a problem in that, as it seems every other AT is about as good solo as in a team in the late game, besides blasters.

I like the secondaries they have now, I just would like them made more effective, so that blasters can have a hope of soloing as well as every other AT, and give some minor control value to a team. After all, should "support" sometimes apply to the team as well?

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How about mezz length? That seems about right.

[/ QUOTE ] That feels like something that would be extremely problematic. If they were just as effective, but didn't last as long, wouldn't that mean that one or two slots would put you right back into the controller's realm?
And if not, would anyone use them?

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Well, they'd never reach a similarly slotted controller, and they'd get the powers later to boot. That was the old justification for scrappers/tankers.

As said, I like the "support" secondaries. I just think a few of the powers in them need to be made more useful (if say the blaster Ice Patch was the same as the controller one, and Lighting Clap was more effective, and Hot Feet freakin' did something then I would be content). I just said it seemed to fit the same kind of reasoning as tanker/scrappers.

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Why is ranged/control overpowered?

[/ QUOTE ] How do you make a control power 75% (or 66%) as effective, then they have a simple 2-4 scale of magnitude? If you lower it by one, you make them horribly weak. If you don't lower them, controllers become useless by comparison.
I think what you end up doing is severely limiting the targets. I think there wouldn't be much problem with blasters having some single-target control effects in their secondary...

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How about mezz length? That seems about right. To bad none of the control primaries fit my concept. BE would probably be a defender if that is what had happened. FF/elec.

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I went away from the computer to check on some CoV stuff and *wham* I received 5 or so PM's asking "what is the Blaster's role?"

Answer - Ranged damage. Now, the issue is more specifically - what does a Blaster do that a Scrapper can't already do? Or, even worse, is a Scrapper inherently "stronger" than a Blaster. We want each Archetype to have a well defined role, and part of our Scrapper testing is aimed directly at this.

Secondly, I have no intention of removing melee attacks - it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation. This is a rather frequent refrain in PM's (and the occasional forum post). This is something that we should also explore...we want all the Secondary sets to be fun.

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it's just a "perception" by some Blasters that some of the Secondary Sets aren't as useful as Devices or Energy Manipulation.

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If "by some" you mean the vast majority, then I would say I agree with you.

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Well +1 isn't "vast". 3 bad, 2 good. At worst. Otherwise, the majority turns around, and it is equally "vast".

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I honestly don't know why it isn't:

Controller: Control/Buff
Defender: Buff/Ranged
Blaster: Ranged/Control

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Because that looks like this:

Controller: Defense/Defense
Defender: Defense/Offense
Blaster: Offense/Defense

Blasters are meant to be extreme offense, controllers extreme defense, and defenders the middle ground.

Just as that doesn't mean that controllers should get NO offense, it doesn't mean that Blasters should get NO defense, but giving them an entire secondary devoted to defense just means we should merge the Defender and Blaster ATs.

Right now Blasters are ranged offense/melee offense, but that doesn't work too well. I think if should be ranged offense/tactical offense, personally, but I know it should NOT be control. Talk about turning 3 ATs into one!

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The devs did it for Scrappers/Tanks, why not the squishies also?

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Try to think of a single team, a single situation, a single time in game where a team trying to decided between two potential teammates would say "No, lets not take the scrapper, let's take the blaster!"

[/ QUOTE ] Arakhn. You were trying to make a point that I'd like to agree with...but you overdid it a little.

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Why? AoEs? So in effect the scrapper will die as fast as the blaster? I'm still not seeing preference.

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No, Arakhn flies. Hovering scraps exist, but we aren't common.

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I have to admit I haven't done her yet, but so what? She's in an outdoor map or something? Or a cathedral? What prevents the scrappers from superjumping up to her?

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They don't have that either. Or a lot don't. It is one time you might not want one, but hardly a "balance". I mean, who brings a blaster to the sewer trial except out of pity?

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Prove that Infernal's male.

I dare you.

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Err... no mommy bags?

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Try to think of a single team, a single situation, a single time in game where a team trying to decided between two potential teammates would say "No, lets not take the scrapper, let's take the blaster!"

[/ QUOTE ] Arakhn. You were trying to make a point that I'd like to agree with...but you overdid it a little.

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Why? AoEs? So in effect the scrapper will die as fast as the blaster? I'm still not seeing preference.

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No, Arakhn flies. Hovering scraps exist, but we aren't common.

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Good to know this, too. I wasn't aware that Ms. Liberty was State's sidekick.


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Well, I guessed she was State's sidekick by induction. Dominatrix "services" Tyrant in all ways. That is kinda like an SandM sidekick. So outside of bizzaro world, she might be his sidekick.

*Note to self: When pistols come out make a Praetorian Malta Gunslinger alt.

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It doesn't matter that it isn't exactly Blaster level damage, it's good enough to the point where a Blaster isn't needed.

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Two scrapper sets with two ranged attacks each, one with a maximum range of 30' and one with a maximum range of 40', make blaster ranged damage unneeded?

I'm not counting ancillary power pools, because they show up way late and don't add all that much. What few scrapper attacks there are simply don't measure up as any kind of replacement.

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The point is more that in general damage being ranged isn't that big of a plus. Especially when you have no reason to fear being in melee. Especially also considering that to really pump out damage blasters need to be in melee also.

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Greyhawke, my experience is not that blasters can easily pull aggro from me when I'm tanking. It may be that you're teaming with tankers who aren't that great with aggro control, or don't care that much about keeping aggro off blasters.

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Saddly, not many tanks are that good. With my tank, blasters almost never fell any heat, if ever, and they certainly don't take it from me, I hadn't gotten it yet. However, with my blaster, I can't always rely on tanks to be as good as mine is.

Its really not scrappers fault that they are stepping on others toes as much as the Devs fault for making the "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" AT so close (well post-purple patch almost equal) to the speciallized one. Devs got the middle man AT closer to accurate with Kheldians.

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I can't think of anything that a scrapper can't do better than a blaster.

Ranged attacks? Laser eye beams and dark blasts with criticals.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course, before level 46, that's not an option. I'd like to agree with you in general, but be careful bringing up points like that one.

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Well we can bring up Focus and Impale then? Cause those are available at 18 and 8 respectively.

I'm probably one of the first melee blasters (started doing it shortly after I1). And I've always found blaster Tough to be completely useless. Even six slotted it only gives 22% to only 2 types. That is just sad. It can't really be counted on to save you. I used holds and end drain to do melee, not resists. I do have a well slotted Health though, which humorously got buffed in I4.

Wait. I thought it was just 17% less than Invincible, which gets somewhat made up for by Icicles, which doesn't do Burn damage, but isn't useless, and the aggro of CE. I don't know whether it is totally made up for by this, concensus seems now that it doesn't. I'd assume that it is better at defense than Fire, but worse, because of less damage. Also CE might have a small range, but you could help teammates some also, as it slows AoE attacks and heals of the foes some too.

All in all this seems like to make the cap the same as the Invicible one, would be a much better change. Does anyone agree?

Would you consider the extra aggro and of CE and the damage of Icicles to balance out that extra 17%? It seems like it should at least be good for something. Not sure if its the whole 17%. Also, doesn't some testing show that Tough hide doesn't stack with Invince. You can check Dark Golem's post in the Tanker forumn if it isn't buried by PvP stuff.