BeautifulEnd

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Well, as said in another thread, look at the Punisher listing for your server, and use the Find team search to see what AT they are. 9 times out of ten they are tankers or controllers. The rest are often scrappers. At least, they are more often scrappers than blasters.

[/ QUOTE ] Unfortuantely, that doesn't answer the question. That stats are not about who does more on a team. Those are about damage dealers, irrespective of teams, IIRC. As far as pure damage output, it seems pretty obvious anyone who can herd and then lay down fire patch is going dominate. Honestly, unless those stats are taking into account those dynamics, using them as justification is not a straw man..it's a rice paper man.

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Well a straw man would be if I mischaracterized someone elses arguement. I'm just making an argument of my own here, which is perhaps a bad one. But isn't the fact that other people can do more damage than a blaster solo something that would suggest blasters damage or defense is too low? Or that tanker and controller damage is too high?

If teaming blaster are really the best, then they would get the best exp, and people would want to team with them. Hence they would appear on those boards. However, the fact that they don't appear suggest that they aren't contributing as much as they should.

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look at the punishers list 100% of the time everyone on it is a fire tanker. (either */fire or fire/*... or both)

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Well my blaster can post proudly that I lead the monthly cap awhile back, when herding wasn't said to be "a bad thing" by the devs. Number 2 was a blaster also, he was a teamate of mine.

However, it seems to have fire controllers on top more than fire tankers, although those are common as well. Nemesis and Victor go to fire tanks a ton though, having had those a good bit with my fire tank (though my blaster got up there when he was getting the Zookeeper badge by herding monkies solo.)

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your server must be low on the PL herders.

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No, I'm saying I was one of them, and as blaster, I beat out any lamo controller or tank. But being sweet when only using TB and BL on massed groups isn't the same thing as being balanced.

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Honestly it doesn't matter what comic hero you throw up for blasters.

Johnny the Homicidal Maniac puts the smack down on all of them so of course scrappers should have higher damage caps.

Sorry, I just sometimes fail to see how we can really translate comics to game balance.

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Since this is the "damage" thread. I have a quesion for you Concern. Has anyone done any datamining to show who does more damage on average in a team from lvls 1-50? Is it blasters or scrappers? Why do I get the feeling it's blasters?

It's a valid argument to say, "We can't attack without dieing." To the extent that this is truth and not exaggeration, it should be looked into.

It's another thing to whine about another AT having a higher damage cap with absolutely zero proof on how that affects in-game results. It's like whining that some Winnebago has a speed-o-meter that goes to 300 MPH and yoru Ferrari only goes 210 MPH. So friggin what? How often do you see scrappers outdamaging blasters in team situation? That is the question I don't see answered.

The bottom line is what is the role of blasters and whether they can perform that role. Fixating on some ridiculous comparative cap argument seems juvenile and petty unless you prove it translates to an realized difference.

And let me add, the vast majority of the game is not played at lvl 50. Issues that occur at lvl 45+ seem ridiculous to me when you've played through 95% of the content. So any meaningful analysis had better focus on the lvl ranges where the majority of people play their toons.

And let me offer you some reality Concern. From lvls 1-16..maybe even as high as 20...scrappers are pretty mediocre. Seems that blasters are far better at soloing. In fact, controllers seem to solo better than scrappers from lvls 1-10. But you dont' see scrappers pissing and moaning about it do you? We recognize that there is a sweet spot for scrappers and we accept it. Blasters it seems, have a different sweet spot, yet, judging by your posts, that is totally unacceptable that there should be any shift in power. That early lvl dominance should last the entire game.

Don't get me wrong. If blasters are not fun to play past certain lvls, they should figure out why that is. But it if the reason is based on coveting someone else's damage cap, irrespective of in-game results....let's hope they make the right call.

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Well, as said in another thread, look at the Punisher listing for your server, and use the Find team search to see what AT they are. 9 times out of ten they are tankers or controllers. The rest are often scrappers. At least, they are more often scrappers than blasters.

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look at the punishers list 100% of the time everyone on it is a fire tanker. (either */fire or fire/*... or both)

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Well my blaster can post proudly that I lead the monthly cap awhile back, when herding wasn't said to be "a bad thing" by the devs. Number 2 was a blaster also, he was a teamate of mine.

However, it seems to have fire controllers on top more than fire tankers, although those are common as well. Nemesis and Victor go to fire tanks a ton though, having had those a good bit with my fire tank (though my blaster got up there when he was getting the Zookeeper badge by herding monkies solo.)

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Several responses mention blasters' damage versus that of scrappers, tankers, controller pets and defenders. My fervent plea to the developers is not to take this as a reason to decrease everyone else's damage, but rather to increase blasters'. I've found it very disheartening each time statements about X being subpar to Y were translated into making Y less enjoyable (offensive, or defensive, capabilities reduced). In my opinion, improving X is far and away the better solution.

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Well ultimately both amount to the same thing, which is why a real fix to blasters needs to be more than just more damage, although that would certainly be part of it.

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If you want to play like that, pick devices and be done with it. However, other blaster types should be able to play like an actual superhero, blazing down from the sky and destroying all. The Human Torch is a non-stealthed, non-superspeeding blaster, and he's not gimp. Cyclops, while he usually fights in a team, doesn't use stealth or invisibility either.

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It does need to be pointed out that the Human Torch's fiery aura melts incoming bullets, and people tend not to punch him because OH MY GOD IT BURNS.

But these are hard to emulate for blasters currently. I think "zero defense" was not the best decision.

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Well, if you assumed HT was lvl 50, and slotted BA heavily, and had Fire Shield, I could see him ignoring "bullets" (something few seem to have at high level, and one of the worse damages there), and foes being reluctant to approch because of BA's wrath. Of course, the F4 don't fight Rikti or Malta.

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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"

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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".

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Listen to Erratic about this one. Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.

REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?

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R U Healer is exactly that. People hitting Defenders with the "evil tell" and Defenders getting offended by it.

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Yeah, well at least they get judged by their powersets (if foolishly) un-like we blasters, who are branded as terrible by our AT alone.

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Why is Blue Steel the only trainer/Hero not with a Praetorian Arc counter-part?


WHat's his story?



And why does Pep Cat smell of...peppermints???

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He's not a Praetorian because he's not a member of the Freedom Phalanx. However, now that Ms. Liberty, Minx, Infernal, etc. have been shown not to be FP members either, this old answer seems mysterious.

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leave Tankers ALONE!!!

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What does that have to do with anything?

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I have seen many a broadcast asking for "Team needs a defender!"

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No you haven't. You may have seen, "Team looking for a healer", but that translates to "Controller/Defender who is Empathy primary".

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Listen to Erratic about this one. Or better yet go look in the Defender Forum. Search Key Words: "r u healer?" It suprised me too, but a lot of Defenders are recruited for a team zones-apart and then kicked off a team as soon as they make the trek to the zone the team lead is in and the Lead finds out their Primary, especially Team leads who are blasters or building the team for their Blaster friend.

REDICULOUS...how hard is it to righclick a Defender's name in the 'Find' box and pick the "chat" option and ask them "What's your Primary?" first before inviting them and then crucifying them for not taking Empath?

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But then, such players are fools. Empathy is nice, but most other sets can defend a blaster just as well, sometimes better. I personally like Kinetic's types, though any defender is welcome.

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Here's some food for thought: other than Hero1 and Ajax, we don't know the composition of Omega Team. What we DO know is that

<SPOILER>



They didn't do it. They went to the other side, sure, but they didn't cut off the Ritki's portal technology as far as we can tell, unless one of them was the most kick-[censored] spellcaster in the known universe. Remember, the Ritki are cut off from their own dimension by a powerful magical shield that surrounds their entire dimension. We're talking one so powerful that the Ritki tried to create Mages among their own converted Lost ranks to handle. They couldn't do it. So the shield is of such great magnitude as to be totally impregnable.

So: if Omega Team didn't do it, who did? And how did Nemesis know that they were coming ten years before their first appearance, and four years after Portal technology was first introduced? Lots of holes in the backstory here.

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Addional spoiler:


On the Rikti Magus arc, they repeatedly state that it was Omega team that made the barrier, and that Omega team was almost all made up of magical heros.

So it was 1 kick [censored] mage, but 200 or so good ones.

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*Yawn* More argument by assertion.

You claim a lot of things are overpowered but never define what overpowered is or how the things detailed meet the qualification.

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Basically Overpowered takes the fun away from the game.

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Hint: Fun is subjective.

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Well, over powered can be defined in terms outside of examples. Literally it means too powerful. But what does that mean. Terms like "powerful" are like "yellow" they are only defined by example. And of course saying anything is "too" yellow, etc. is just a matter of opinion. However, to say something is "more" yellow or powerful, isn't.

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I was gonna write something, but pretty much most people here know that statement was pretty weak, I'm glad I mostly play my tank now. BTW, are disciplines still unbuyable in I4? If so, I'm definitely happy I play a tank..

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Disiplines haven't supposed to be in the game since after I3. They will be totally gone for I4.

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As far as snipes go I would rather they just get rid of snipes and just make them another strong attack. I would like that instead of nukes too. Just another strong AoE attack that we could use in combat. Compare how many times a BS scrapper will use Head Splitter in combat compared to a Blaster useing his nuke. Against bosses I would rather have another strong attack I could cycle through.

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I just want a freaking point blank power burst/blaze attack for Assault Rifle. I could really use the single target damage....

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That would be real nice for AR. A short animation on it would be nice too. The extremely long animations on every single AR attack drove me mad when I had it, and are the ultimate reason for my scrapping the character.

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Energy's all about the snipe. That shorter interrupt/animation REALLY makes it worthy of use.

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I actually use the AR Snipe....

...as a finishing move for my AR/ENG Blapper at next-to-no range. And it'll come out once I get Flamethrower/FA.

I'd love to see snipe shots actually get the "targeting scope view" of the battlefield from first-person...and actually require it due to the range.

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Hehe, well, I don't know if there is a range cap or not, but when I had snipe, I 6 slotted with range and popped Boost Range. I tried to see if I outranged Hami. Answer, no.

But with Boost Range, my snipe had a range almost longer than the game animates enemies, with no range boosts. Actually, on some maps (like DA types) it was longer than animation range.

Boost Range is a nice power if you want to hit from far away. 1 SO and Hasten make it perma too. Again, another good power for Energy.

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Energy's all about the snipe. That shorter interrupt/animation REALLY makes it worthy of use.

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I'm not sure. I haven't played energy blast, but if I have a 3rd blast with a pretty quick animation, I doubt I'd use snipe still. Though without SC I might have too.

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In the ensuing titanic battle, 800 of 1000 heroes died, along with some 50,000 Rikti soldiers.

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What is less well known is that of the 1,000 heroes in Alpha Team, 189 of them were */regen scrappers, of whom 166 surivived the battle.

*drumroll*

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So. . . 166 guys that got Revive at 49 cause they say nothing better. Why do I think the other 34 were /DA and Fire/ tanks?

*rimshot*

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If we're going to change something, for the love of GOD do not change it for just snipes.

I absolutely hate snipes. HATE. HATE WITH ALL THE MIGHT I CAN MUSTER IN MY BODY.

They're worthless powers. Interruptable, mediocre damage for what you have to do.

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If snipes actually had a range advantage, they'd be worth using. As it stands, they're good for getting your butt whipped at a longer range than usual. Nothing like rocks and barf outranging a sniper rifle.

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I second the distain for snipes. I don't even have mine anymore, and when I did I never used it.

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Hey its Anime - strange hair colors even on guys is par for the course - just wait to see what anime fans come up with once I4 goes live - even i myself have many many more alts planned

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"Once I4 goes live?" says the man who's main has blue hair. "Oh, we do it now, baby! We do it now!"

Body scaling does r0xx0r my s0xx0z though.

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Fire Secondaries are a sorted affair... Its damage is really pathetic for something with a longer animation and no secondary effects. Even in the CoH's own Comic book you have WarWitch 1-shotting Minions and Lt's with her FireSword which really does make atleast a little more sense.

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Well, judging by her attacks, it seems Warwitch is lvl 8 (she has the first ice blast, fire sword, aim, and the low level ice hold). Assuming she slotted only Firesword (which seems evident by the way it is the only attack she really uses) and aims a lot, she might actually be able to one shot minions with it or something.

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Here's one thing that strikes me odd as hell. why do the put ranged holds in certain blaster primaries?

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Maybe it's because they're -ranged- holds, and the blaster secondaries are *MELEE*?

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Technically, they should be "support". Sadly except for Smoke grenade, most of the powers are player based. DOn't forget that all but 1 also have a range imob, is it too far a stretch to range holds?

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sorry man. I'd rather take powers that make me effective in ANY team... instead of looking around for a controller just so I can use powers that I have to slot to use situationally. Call me a value shooper. I'd rather have superspeed and stealth so I can get in the first shot. Not going to waste a single slot on backloaded damage that my primary can easily match.

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Oh, in now way did I mean that /fire is good. Just that it can be useful. If you, say, always teamed with friends or had a good SG, than it would be wise to take it, or if you were elec/fire (or to some extent ice/fire) than you'd like it more.

The thing is most people that took fire/fire as a concept thing missed out on a lot of the buffs they probably would have wanted in things like energy or dev.

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Warning - this is my longest post...

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Especially at lower levels, if you're a low level Controller with anything besides a ton of slots in Empathy, you're going to have bad luck finding a good Blaster. Even the Good blasters often won't settle for any less than Empath. It would seem that the General Blaster-Opinion not just here, but in game too, is that Blasters are such fragile aggro-magnets that not even most dedicated defenders can keep them alive.

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The problem with with getting not empathy for blasters is that if a blaster needs a heal, it usually needs a big one. Although I will take any combination of two...

-Kinetics-
The heal of kinetics is melee, which is dangerous for blasters, although as it is a big enough heal, it is do-able, but if the heal misses the mob we are usually dead.
-Storm-
The O2 boost just doesn't heal enough if we are hurt, same for radiation.
-Force Fields-
FF will work if slotted enough, but generally does require a heal of some sort, but heal inspirations can fill in for this, in case we do get hit.
-Dark Miasma-
Dark doesn't heal enough for the most part, and it also isn't a guaranteed heal (similar to kinetics)

I my highest blaster is only 35, so I don't know too much about the levels past that, but I am able to solo invincible well (en/en) but I do require some downtime. I am also almost never in debt (mostly due to SS, maneuvers (well slotted), and lots of acc for my main knockbacks (torrent, and en punch )) But I don't think anyone thinks there is anything wrong with /energy or /devices.

As for blasters needing a general boost... I don't think so, /dev and /en work very well. Devices gives you lots of ways to control your enemy and can be devestating for them if used well. Energy melee attacks do what I personally think the other melee powers need to do, minor enemy control. The knockback and disorient do some damage than allow us to stop the enemy from killing us as soon as we use them (assuming they affect the enemy)

I think the other secondaries need to do more in the way of stopping the immediate death of the blaster, through either:
1-2 sec stun/holds that will allow us to run away.
More ways to keep mobs from closing into melee, either immobilize effects, or repelling powers)

Another option that I think would work well would be to have the scrapper primaries available as secondaries. I would love to have dark as a secondary. If we are going to have melee give us melee

Look at the scrapper primaries:

Broadsword/Katana - reduces opponent defense, and one that raises yours
Claws - knockback and one that lowers defense.
Dark - lowers acc, terrorize, self heal, end regain, immobilize
Martial Arts - disorient, knockback, immobilize
Spines - all slow, immobilize, and are mostly ranged attacks as well.

These all have more to keep your character alive than blaster secondaries except for /dev, /en, and /ice. And they all do more to have more damage output (which is a blaster's role). Obviously I don't think they should get criticals, as that is something that is unique to scrappers and justifyably so.
I can't see blasters not finding these useful, and I don't think scrappers will really think we are taking away from them, as we still won't be able to take damage, and defenders get some of the blaster primaries, controllers get the defender primaries..

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Well, I could care less what secondary a controller I team with, as long as he is high enough to have an AoE mezz. Screw healing. I like buffs and them not fighting much more.

As for blasters being balanced as a whole, even the best of /dev and /energy lag behind pretty much every other AT in the late game. The others are even far behind. In the competion with Scrappers for damage dealer, blasters aren't far enough ahead to be worth the extra hastle to the team, at least in the eyes of many.

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Heph's done the time on Fire/Fire. Give the man some respect. Even if he's crotchety in his age. :P

Seriously- at what level are you laying in melee chains with your Fire/Fire blaster? If I was killing in a crowd with that many attacks in a row, I'd expect to getting pounded if not flattened somewhere in the middle of it.

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Thats why a controller or them having no end is a better time for /fire to shine then a tanker.

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Really, you would have been better off not even mentioning a minor-damage attack with a three minute timer. I was almost agreeing with you until that one.

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Okay, and the next time someone mention Short Circuit, Ball Lightning, Ice Storm, Buck Shot, ignite and Rain of Fire as "Good damaging AoE attacks," I'll make sure to promptly ignore everything else they said.

Someone else covered the other thing you mentioned.

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Here's something else to consider, didn't scrapper get Crits to be more helpful on a team? Why do they need Crits and a higher damage cap?

Also on the Risk thing, as obviously being in melee, reguardless of defences, is more dangerous then being at ranged, why don't tankers have a 500% damage cap? They're obviously in more danger then scrappers, they are required to draw the aggro and take melee beatings for the rest of the team, and not just themselves.

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Don't recall who said it, but someone said "ranged + Control = Overpowered," doesn't that make Controller pets over powered? The pets are ranged damage sources, and the Controller is controlling for the pets. So it's overpowered for Blasters to be able to mass hold and kill everything, but controllers are just fine being able to mass hold and kill everything? And don't give me that "31 levels of hell" crap, it's called a team, if we blasters are required to get in one 35+, you can suffer through the easy [censored] first 31 levels in one. I Have solo'd with controllers, before pets, when nothing is hurting you, it isn't that bad, especially if you slot your single target hold and Immob for damage.

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Well, really the biggest thing that makes States look like a fool in his quote is why blasters don't have a 500% cap on their melee.