Zen_Concern

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It certainly would help the corner case of AR/DEV a lot.

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I didn't miss the bit about defenders.

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Stealing a bit from you here:

1) change all of the primary attacks that are shorter than 80, by increasing their range to current_range + (80-current_range)/2.
(10'->45', 20'->50', 30'->55', 40'->60', 50'->65', 60'->70', 70'->75')

2) change the first melee attack in each secondary set (including Taser) to have a 45' range.

#3) Change the first PBAE Toggle (if existant) in each secondary set into an enemy-targeted Aura power (akin to DN and EF)

#4) Increase the strength of the all debuffs (primary and secondary) by 50%.

#5) Apply the irresistable damage (Blaster) and irresistable debuff (Defender) rules from PVP to PVE. (Controllers already got their PVP rule migrated to PVE!)

I think that's a way to get all 4 of my objectives in 5 bullets.

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I could see that working out.

This concept gets the Concern Approval rating of "FRO MASTER". (Watch the final episode of Excel Saga to get the refrence)

I especially liked #5.

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Energy: Energy Punch - Replaced with a longer ranged version of Power Burst (1)

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Sooo you want to remove my favorite power from energy secondary..

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One of the issues I have with changeing melee attacks in the secondary is what the animation times of the secondary powers will be in relation to their damage and range. Energy and Electric melee are enjoyed in part due to their fast animation times. I just can't see the developers going along with fast animation times, good damage, and range. From the secondary.

Just to note, in the original description for the Blaster it did say that they were masters of damage be it ranged or melee.

When the developers noticed that players were completely skipping the melee they then increased the melee strength so that it would be attractive. Again, this indicates that the developers did want blasters to use their melee powers. It should be noted that they didn't change the melee powers themselves but simply increased the base melee multiplier on blasters so it matched their ranged multiplier. This made it the equal of scrappers who originaly were the best class in melee and are now again the best melee damaging set.

Try and stay true to your premise though. You want to keep it as simple as possible with the fewest amount of power changes or animation changes for that matter.

Look for the biggest way that you can positively help the Blaster AT playstyle both comparatively and intrisicaly useing the fewest possible changes.

Second, any suggestion should try and keep itself within the concepts of playstyle that the developers were shooting for with the blaster. (Since Statesman said that he was keeping melee ATTACKS I don't think suggesting changeing them or removing them to be in keeping with their playstyle concept)

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you use now when trying to explain to me how the set was balanced.

[/ QUOTE ] I have never said the set was balanced. So your entire post is moot.

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There is a difference between trying to balance a set, the method of balancing a set and actually creating a set that is "balanced".

Your response to what I wrote is thus short and pointless.

If a set ends up being under-par due to it's design it does end up being useless in a way.

Time and time again, I ask defenders of TA to show me where the TA defenders are. They look around and around in viegn. If a set plays under-par it starts to get played less and less. The less it gets played the less people know how to play with it causeing a worse gaming experience when they play with it the first time again giving a bad impression of the set.

The downward spiral of destruction continues until it hits rock bottom, which is about where TA is at today. I guess they could nerf it further but it wouldn't really matter to the popularity that TA has. After Positron announced that the set played under-par and that they would be reviewing it and would change anything if they thought they needed to either many people that may have played the set simply decided to grab their names and then wait for the inevitable changes that would come down the pipe.

At least I hope there are people that want to play TA. I could be wrong, the set may just not appeal to people. It's possible but I doubt it. I think many rational people don't want to play a set when they don't know how the set will play tommorrow. They could very well get the shaft if the play style that they had grown to like due to how a power worked was suddenly changed because the power was changed. Thus, I think that many people want to avoid dealing with that if at all possible.

What would make TA popular? Well, I suppose we could all take Mieux's approach and sing the praises of the few things TA does well but that falls flat when most people play it and have bad experiences. Personaly, I think if the developers came out and actually announced that they were going to make a sweeping set of buffs to the set (small tweaks) that players would once again start playing them.

I would much rather the set appeal to a larger audience than to the few of us that can actually make the set work well despite it's faults.

I think it is somewhat sad that at level 31 my TA defender (that teamed exclusively) has never played with another TA defender.

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At that time I was low level, and BARELY noticing any difrance.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not surprised...because based on your posts...you're clueless. The value of PGA is the same regardless of your level.

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I've seen little credable tests for it's actual value eather.

[/ QUOTE ] lol...because it's sooooooo difficult to test it yourself before running your mouth that it's 5%. Can you do subtraction and division?

You have no idea what you're talking about, but that doesn't stop you from running your mouth like you do know what's up. In school they have a way to deal with it. They give you an F. You get an F in TA.

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First of all Here is a screenshot

[/ QUOTE ] Let's go on Test right now and let me see you solo your Rugged missions without acc. Let's see how long it takes...

oh please oh please let me see you solo Heracles with that build.

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You know what I find pretty funny about all this?

You are basicaly calling some of the staunchest defenders of TA whiners about the set. You would have to go back to their first posts about the set after it released on live but several of the people here who are saying that the set could use a few tweaks are the same people that fought me tooth and nail when I started suggesting that TA needed to be improved becuase it was under par compared to other defender sets.

The arguements they brought up then are the EXACT same arguements that you bring up now.

That, is what I find amuseing. The same people that you accuse of not knowing the set, used the exact same arguements that you use now when trying to explain to me how the set was balanced. Enigma in particular was defensive of the set if I recall even when he thought that Poison Gas Arrow only had a 5% damage debuff.

Speaking of which, the damage debuff suffers the same problem that all damage debuffs do in PvE. So, the net damage debuff that a player sees can actually vary from mob to mob similar to how kinetics debuffs can vary from mob to mob. If you don't understand the damage debuff mechanic, you can look at Ladioss_Sopp's guide to kinetics defenders for the full details on it.

The first clue that there were unlockable contacts was when I read about them on the forum.

Since I am trying the play the game through to 40 once without looking at any guides or anything else (although I do test powers on the test server, fool me once and all that) I have found that I have not done one unlockable contact and I am a hair away from level 28. I haven't even done the respec trial yet because no one seems to want to do one. I don't need one but it would be nice to have one banked.

So, as far as my character knows, the unlockable contacts are content that doesn't even exist.

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While I like the non-toggle based setup, it's a definate killer in teams. Unless there's three tanks in the team I'm gonna die as soon as my debuffs start flying. Oh wow, that's such a powerful set isn't it? TA is Ok, it needs to be Good. Better yet if they do what's needed to put it at the same effectiveness of other sets. I don't care bout debuff numbers, just that this is my only permadebt defender due to not midigating damage well enough to survive.

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Hehe, even three tanks won't necessarily help ya stay alive. I did Siege the other night and died multiple times just laying my debuffs on the mob we were fighting with no outside aggro and I'd get so much that a few people were telling me to target the tanks. Heh. I told them that all my debuffs were AoE and that wouldn't help. If it were my tanks I'd be watching out for the defender more, but people just don't know how to tank anymore. They were all busy beating up on the bosses.

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Heh, and people wonder why I picked up the medicine pool.

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I think the problem your seeing is the issue with weaken and envenom stacking.

Other then that I can't agure it would be nice if it had all the effects of powerboost in reverse.. but on the slip side IIRC even though envenum does not stack weaken does if you can pull them out fast enuogh. (post SOs for a few recharges)

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No, I tested that. They apparently do not stack. As soon as the new debuff icon would appear the old one would go away according to the person I was testing with.

Also, this is not due to any Weaken + Envenom bug that may exist. Each power was tested by itself and then combined. Weaken did nothing to prevent any of the healing methods of the regen scrapper.

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Weaken works as a reverse Boost Power.

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Just to note, so far I have not found this to be a good indicator of what this power can do. I see it said very often but I have not seen anyone actually go down the list of what Boost Power can do and say that they have confirmed that it does indeed debuff all those things.

In particular right off the bat, I can say that I have not been able to debuff movement speed with Weaken although that is something that Boost Power boosts.

If this debuff is in fact supposed to be a reverse boost power then it may as well say so in it's description. Since it doesn't say so, I see no reason why we should assume what the power can and cannot do until we actually test it.

I haven't seen that bug myself with Freakshow, but I can tell you that Envenom did reduce the amount of healing that the regen scrapper could do and applying Weaken made no difference. I tested that specificaly.

Also the duration seems to be a quarter of what it is in PvE. So, don't expect to apply the debuff to more than one person because you practicaly have to spam it to keep someone debuffed. Very endurance intensive.

Good news is that the power does seem to reduce mez effect duration in half in PvP.

If touch of fear had a longer recharge timer, that would actually be worthwhile

It looks like this power doesn't do everything it says. Please, if a power boosts the effects of powers or decreases the effects of powers it would be very nice if the developers would actually say specificaly what effects and powers are affected by the power.

Straight up, I can say that the power does not reduce +perception from a self buffing toggle.

It does not reduce the amount of health regained by a Regeneration scrapper useing Reconstruction or Dull Pain. Which is odd because the power says specificaly that it will debuff the targets healing powers. It does not do so in any way in PvP. If that is a bug then please fix it. If that is a typo in the help then please correct every instance of it.

These are the only two aspects that I have had time to test fully others that I am planning to test are +res buffs, +def buffs, +recovery buffs, +regen buffs, +stealth buffs.

Why am I testing this? Simply because the power says that it reduces the effects of the targets powers but does not say exactly what effects it actually affects. Lack of clear descriptions on powers is getting to be very annoying.

As I have stated, I have only started testing this. I will continue to update this as I test. I know many things have been claimed about this power but I am trying to confirm or deny as many claims as I can so that we the players know what game we are actually playing.

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Getting chain stunned by +0 minions made RI, let alone EF, completely worthless. Against a large group of +2 Green inkmen I had no shot at survival unless I hovered above them out of melee.


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There is a reason that LR is a click power in the Rad set with a one second activation time. It takes care of pesky problems like that. You have to look at the set as a whole right? Take the whole thing in context?

If you are just comparing flash arrow to RI even if your debuff is being knocked off it is still better for the brief moment that it is on than the debuff that doesn't amount to anything against +2s and does stay on (for a decreased amount of time).

Edit: I am just saying that you are a bit quick to jump in and say that RI and EF are useless against +2s because you ran into some inkmen.

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If the recharge times were adjusted, entangle arrow made identical to web grenade like it used to be, Flash Arrow Auto-hit (no need to change the debuff), Acid arrow given a larger splash radius (having it's original damage would be nice too), Oil Slick changed to self light so everyone can use the power, and the -recharge on Ice Arrow extended past the duration of the hold then I think the set would be a "great" set.

This is not asking for alot.

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Rather than let this be buried, I'll just quote it again.

If the recharge times were adjusted, entangle arrow made identical to web grenade like it used to be, Flash Arrow Auto-hit (no need to change the debuff), Acid arrow given a larger splash radius (having it's original damage would be nice too), Oil Slick changed to self light so everyone can use the power, and the -recharge on Ice Arrow extended past the duration of the hold then I think the set would be a "great" set.

This is not asking for alot.

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IF it were identical to Smoke, then I'd agree that seems odd. Defenders have a higher AT modifier. And as an aside, only the defender version is unresistable in PvP...though this discussion is about PvE.


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Castle did say that the debuff of Flash was identical to Smoke. He also said it was identical to SG. He said that it functioned the same as SG and that the debuff was the same as Smoke if I recalled correctly. Annoying to say the least.

As an aside, -acc is not resisted in PvP period no matter who applies the debuffs. Also, not all defender debuffed are un-resistable. Only some of them are. -dmg and -speed are both resistable as is -recharge, and -regen. It appears the only debuffs that are not resistable by defenders in PvP is -def and -res. However, not every defender power has been tested in this regard against every defensive power so not even the developers know for sure that everything is working properly on live.

Also while some defender powers cannot be resisted this does not mean that there is no mitigation for defender debuffs. Weaken from the Poison secondary for MMs works very well at negating defender debuffs before they are even applied. I believe Benumb has a similar effect that may actually be more powerfull than Weaken since it is from a Corruptor but I am not sure.

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Whatever grok means

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I'll clue you in since Mieux will probably not do so. The word "grok" is associated with a novel written by Robert A. Heinlein called "Stranger in a Strange Land". The un-edited version of this book is a very good read. You can find it both edited and un-edited and if you enjoy reading decent sci-fi with philosophy combined with theology then you'll enjoy the book.

To get back to the word "grok" think of it as understanding something completely. Completely.

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It's not an ego thing...it's a counter-anecdote to all these claims about people getting kicked from teams because they are Trick Arrow.


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It really isn't a counter to anything. If you check you'll find that teams that have played with good TA defenders (IE great defender players in general) don't kick them. In the instances where a TA defender is kicked it is usually at the begining before they have even given the TA defender a chance.

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Acid Arrow slotted with debuffs on top of DA, is pretty good stacking -res.

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It is pretty average for a set that has to use two powers to get more than a 30% -res. -40% is nothing to scoff at except when it is in a very small area. Then I scoff at it. Especially when it misses when you really need it to hit simply because there will be a time where it must miss. It would really be nice if they removed the nerf from Acid Arrow, it would really help the set shine as a debuffing set.

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because I'm lvl 47***On a team with lvl 50's fighting lvl 52's I missed..

[/ QUOTE ] What kind of idiot are you? The fact that you can't +5's is somehow proof of something? The fact that you expect it to be of some major value against +5's shows you are quite out to lunch on this whole discussion. I'd love to see how long you last with RI against +5's.

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You sound like you don't know what you are talking about it every time you bring it up.


[/ QUOTE ] And you sound like someone who needs to cash in their reality check. It's past due.

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Are you only ever fighting with people of your level or do you join pick up groups and whatever comes your way?

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps you might want to read some of my above posts and answer that question for yourself.

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(Concern grabs a fire controller with smoke)

(Smokes the entire mob without a single miss due to it being auto-hit)

I can see why he would want it to hit +5 mobs. If nothing else, for -perception since the accuracy debuff won't do anything. It is really important when useing this ability for -perception that you get ALL the mobs and not miss any. Especially in large groups where you have large mobs. It only takes a single mob to get the agro of all the mobs which is why smoke was auto-hit.

It seems like instead of copying smoke, the developers decided to copy smoke grenade from the blaster secondary instead and give it a longer animation time and recharge.

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Didn't someone say Positron already feels like TA is sub-par? Why do you care what I say about the set? Haven't you already won your battle? Why not let someone praise TA in peace?


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Positron said they would be keeping an eye on the set and that they would make changes if they felt it was necessary after the set went live.

We find out later from Castle's post that the developers may in the future look at TA. Which seems to indicate that they are not looking at it now despite what Positron said. That implies to me that it is a VERY low priority on the Dev's to-do list.

It wasn't until a HELL of alot of complaining that the developers noticed that Poison Gas arrow was balanced for how the set worked previously, not how the set works now with it's Targeted AoE nature. That leads me to believe that the set didn't recieve the proper attention that it should have being a new set to not just one but three different ATs (MM, Def, Con). It also suggests that the developers were not keeping an eye on it as they said they would.

Yet, I get you telling me that you suppose the that the developers did take into account ED in their recharge times when they re-balanced the set, yet they didn't take into account changeing the mechanics of a power? No, I think it is better to air on the side of caution and to assume that they didn't balance the set with ED in mind and that Poison Gas Arrow is not the only power that needs a tweak to get the set back into balance with other defender sets.

I feel I have very solid reason to not count my hens until they have hatched.

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There is this attitude that if you don't act like the set is in dire circumstances, it won't get any fixes.

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That seems to be the only way things get changed from a player perspective. It seems to take at times over a year to get powersets changed or tweaked unless a developer has an agenda with that powerset. I would rather not wait a year before TA gets tweaked thank you very much.

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You're not interested in understanding how a set might be better balanced than you realized.

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Your right, because when the set came out and was on test most of the experienced posters on TA went over how it was balanced and what benefits it had then. We have also had months to compare those benefits to what we see with our other defenders and have come to the conclusion that the set needs some tweaks to be on par. Thus, we don't need you to tell us what advantages TA has compared to other sets.

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You're saying what it can't do, I'm telling you what it can.

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Since I am looking for tweaks to get it to do what it can't do, that may be a good reason why I keep bringing it up. The only reason I can see why you keep bringing up what it can is that you want it to stay the same. If you don't want it to stay the same, then lend some support to those asking for tweaks.

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Grow up just a little.

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After about your third go around trying to convince those that think the set needs improvements that it doesn't need improvements I was thinking the same thing about you.

Saying that a set is not beyond improvement is not the same thing as saying that a set needs improvement. If you don't think the set needs improvement then you are satisfied with it as it is and the only reason I can see with you persisting in posting is to keep it the way it is.

Unless you do think it needs improvement but for some reason want to tout every scenario where you percieve that the set performed better than a typical Toggle set. That doesn't seem very logical though. I guess you could be argueing for arguements sake but that brings me back to thinking that perhaps you should grow up a bit.

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Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time

[/ QUOTE ] Tonight..I was one of two defenders on team facing 32's. I'm 28. The other defender was Rad without RI and EF, seems he's well known. We faced off against Coven. Group of 10-12 +4's...FA misses 2. I fire it again...it misses 1. This is with a one +3 Acc and Tactics without any to-hit buffs slotted. This is against lvl 32's....+4 to me. And this is my typical experience. I miss one or two out of any given spawn. On +3 boss...I was hitting 70% or so.

You brought up the value of the -acc debuff. I agree that as you face higher level mobs....the disparity becomes more pronounced. This is may be part of why they are going to the 50% BTH for all mobs. This will reduce the diparity between powers like FA and DN against higher level mobs.

Acid Arrow is saaaweeet. Great recharge. I was consistently hitting +3 boss with it. It's kind of cool how the radius is small. Sometimes forces you to choose between one tough target or a group of lesser targets.

As an aside, Coven...very very very bad for anchor debuffing. The bosses and crew fly all over the frikin room when people don't aggro from melee. The mavens drain endo like there is no tomorrow. Had another four courner aggro. Total chaos...RI..wouldn't 'have done much. One Entangle and I could bring the boss down to the floor and slap Glue Arrow on her.

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I just remembered...there might have been someone else running Tactics too during that +4 run.

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So, what your really argueing is that our suggested changes would make the set overpowered in your opinion and that you love the set exactly the way it is.

That can be the only reason that I can see you continueing to argue against those of us who are seeking to balance the set by improving it.

We say it isn't balanced, and you say the play style is something you like. Which isn't something we are argueing. You say it provides mitigation similar to other sets, we show you that it doesn't.

Yet, you continue to come in here and attempt to keep any change and progress from happening with the set by saying that you like it as it is. Which is exactly what will happen. It only takes one person saying that they like a set the way it is to simply let the devs look the other way (unless the devs are looking to nerf something).

Frankly Mieux, your a hinderance. You have said your piece. You believe that it provedes adequate damage mitigation, the majority of us disagree. Lets leave it at that because that is exactly what this round robin arguement has become. We are just going in circles over the issues of Trick Arrow for what seems to be the third time now. Time to let this thread die.