__Goldie__

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Sounded to me like he was just saying that he'd rather the missions/mobs changed instead of the heroes

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Why everyone would feel all the better if everything around them changes but they remain the same is beyond me. I'd feel kinda left behind in that type of situation actually.

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Right. I suppose it's totally illogical to want changes to the AI and environment in order to increase the level of challenge instead of taking certain things away from our own characters.

When I was in the military, we were required to qualify with a certain proficiency in firing an M-16. You started at 200 meters and fired while sitting and standing. To increase the challenge, you moved back to 300 meters and fired while sitting and kneeling. To further increase the challenge, you moved back to 500 meters and fired from the prone position.

I guess in your perfect world, everyone would stay at 200 meters and then, to increase the difficulty, you would have to file the sights off your rifle. Then what? Perhaps poke out one eye to throw off your depth perception, or maybe force you to shoot with mittens on? God forbid the challenge come from an external source instead of having to handicap yourself, right?

Your comment is nothing more than flippant fanboiism.

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Darnit all. If I can't defeat a mission single-handedly every time without having to ever worry about dying, what's the point of me being a hero?

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Funny, I didn't read any such sentiment in his post. Sounded to me like he was just saying that he'd rather the missions/mobs changed instead of the heroes. Next time you decide to wow us all with your witty sarcasm, you might want to reply to a post that's at least relevant to your comment.

Or just troll...that's always fun too.

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Invincibility is an almost useless power in PvP and I think that's how the devs intended it to be.

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Unless I am missing something, invincibility has never been good in PvP since it depends on a large number of enemies in immediate proximity of the tanker. I haven't see that kind of behavior in any PvP I've participated in.

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What I mean is that now, since Inv can no longer rely on +RES and is forced to rely on Invincibility in PvE to survive, it is generally 6 slotted for +DEF in I5. That +DEF will not help much in PvP whereas in I4 I had Invinc 3 slotted for To-Hit (I hate missing ). That To-Hit was actually pretty useful in the very limited "goofing off" I did in the arena with some SG mates. I'll no longer have that option unless I go with a specialized PvP build since the lack of 6 slotted +DEF Invinc will be noticeable in PvE...and will likely get me killed.

But I'm not all doom and gloom over it. Being relieved of the burden of 100% aggro management in I5 is kind of refreshing. That's actually why I've been playing my blaster more lately. Nobody complains to the blaster when they faceplant...and slowly, I5 is re-educating people to the fact that it's not the tanker's fault you died either.

Another major concern I have over I5 and the way Inv was changed is that it has an even bigger impact on the early game that the later. With base numbers so low and TOs and DOs not being all that effective, no Inv tank will really live up to its name until SO are available. Those early levels were already hell in I4 (I took Rikka from 1 to 50 completely in I4) I can't imagine how the pre SO Inv tank can survive with the current numbers aside from just slotting up the secondary and skranking their way to 22. I know I'll never roll another Inv tank with the way things are now...there's no fun to be had in the set prior to a hundred hours or so invested. that's a long time to be bored for a lackluster payoff.

I have no problem admitting that the I4 version of Inv needed a step down. Like you, I just wish it had gone in the direction of RES based instead of DEF based. I have no desire to play a DEF based melee character. So much so that I doubt I'll ever play a Stalker in COV since it looks like every single one of their secondaries is a different flavor of SR. I'll pass. I don't like the feel of it. I'd rather play a blaster/corruptor with zero defense than a scrapper/tanker/stalker with "random chance" defenses.

Aside from the RES vs. DEF issue, my main beef with I5 is that it is dictating a certain playstyle on people. I think they should have left to door open to us to be able to maintain our I4 level defenses at the cost of slotting attacks. Sure, that would kill the soloability of the ultimate meatshield, but who cares? You only need that much defense on a team anyway. It's a fair tradeoff. If you want to solo, you skrimp on defenses a little and pick up only what you need to survive your own missions and slot your attacks, if you want to tank for large groups, you should have the option to grab, and survive the aggro of an 8 man team by slotting up your defenses as opposed to your attacks.

Unfortunately, that scenerio probably wouldn't work for PvP, and I think that's the biggest reason Inv was hit the way it was. I actually believe States when he says herding and PLing aren't that big a concern for him. Inv tanks are still running Dreck just like in I4, they're just doing it on Rugged now in 5 man teams. The XP is the same for the lowbies with the XP increase in I5, so that's a moot issue. But Inv has certainly been crippled for PvP. Invincibility is an almost useless power in PvP and I think that's how the devs intended it to be. They also made Inv extremely weak to ranged attackers with its pitiful +RES to elements and energies. Most blast type powers chew right through an Inv/* tank now...while most melee is still s/l based (for the most part). I dislike PvP and the lack of PvP is what drew me to this game in the first place. It's too bad that my favorite characters had to be gutted to accomodate a playstyle that I never intended to participate in.

I don't really care for the flavor of Inv now. I may still play my 50 once in a while, but honestly, my blaster is more consistent now and I don't have too much fear that her playstyle will be forcibly changed anytime soon. I'm looking forward to COV where I won't care so much about defense and will just kill, kill, kill. Evil for teh win!

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Moral to this post: I can solo invincable, you all must be chumps.

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Last I checked, not too many Inv/* tankers were complaining about not being able to solo on Invincible. Soloing is the easy part. I soloed a bunch of Malta missions the other night on my 50 still using her I4 build (haven't bothered to respec her yet). That's not, and has never really been, the issue.

Tanking for large teams against non s/l damage dealers is more of an issue. And actually, the biggest issue seems to be play style. For those of us who enjoyed being damage sponges and holding the aggro of very large groups of mobs, COH is no longer the same. For the Skrankers and solo tankers, I5 didn't bring a huge change to their playstyle.

My mid-level tank, Doc, still runs on Invincible and has done everything from solo to 8 man TFs with no deaths, but he is no longer the tough damage sponge he was created to be. He is now a skranker and accepts no responsibility for anyone's aggro but his own. He's far more team dependant and in my opinion, no longer has the same job he did under I4. I don't care for him as much, but he's still survivable.

Whoa...whoa...WHOA...you misunderstand...I quoted you to AGREE with you!! lol. My point was that chainsaw was talking out of his rear-end since he's never played a 40+ tank. He can't exactly comment on something he's never done with any sense of authority, now can he?

Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't put me in the group of the narrow minded nerf lovers...I think I5 is forcing people to play in ways they never wanted to and I think that stinks. I haven't even had the heart to respec my 50 yet. My other tank is now a "skranker" and I really can't stand that, but I've brought him too far to just delete him now.

Again, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, my comments were directed at fuzzy.

Peace

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My highest was an Invince/Stone, set to invince at 20, retired at 34 because it was WAY too easy. Sure, things like Malta and Carnies would have made the 40+ game more challenging, but... meh. Couldn't be bothered to take it that far simply because of how easy it was before. Now... I rolled a couple of tanks, an Ice/Mace out of masochistic curiousity and Stone/Energy on coolness (Granite + Total Focus = one of my favorite visuals in the game).

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It's funny how tanks who stuck with the game despite the "boredom" some people had are being called lazy, but the lazy ones quit because they "couldn't be bothered" and are being rewarded for it.

I guess to get Invulnerable resists back, Invulnerable tankers should just quit and issue six will address resists?

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I also find it funny that tankers who never bothered to play the 40+ game seem to want to assert themselves as some kind of authority on the issue of "god mode" tanking.

"I'll just let that room full of Carnies or that Sapper know that I'm in god mode so they can't hurt me...oh, hello floor, havent seen you since lv17."

Yes, Inv needed an adjustment, but it just digs me when people go on and on perpetuating the myth of the "unkillable tank" and have never even played one past the mid 30s. The devs could have done something to address the free pass Inv got from 18-40 without gutting the non s/l resists and making us SR Scrappers to any other danage type.

I'm not sure by what criteria I5 could be called "one of the best launches ever", but I'll take your word for it. I'm more or less convinced at this point that the better part of this forum is completely ignored by the devs, but what the hell, it's been slow today.

First the good news...

Croatoa. I like it. I've taken my En/En blaster and my Inv/Stone "tank" through all the content now and more or less enjoyed it. The Red Caps are tough little buggers and a nice switch from beating up even more wussy Freaks or Sky Raiders. The TF is fun, lots of action, lots of rewards (the hat, accolade, and likely most of the defeat x badges), and is nice and short. I've done it twice and had a good time doing it.

A couple suggestions: The level gap between the contacts could be looked at a bit. Many people finish off the first three contacts by 27 or so and then have to wait til 30 to move on. It kind of breaks the "atmosphere" if you're trying to do the whole zone as one big arc. Also, the 30 Fir Bolg mission needs to be reworked. Either explain the objective better, change it completely, or put a visible timer on it. It's rather annoying to not know when the thing will end even after you've cleared the map. I don't have a gripe about the difficulty, my blaster soloed it, but the feeling of "being in the dark" about when the thing will finally end is just frustrating.

Any chance we'll ever see a PC powerset based on the Red Caps' double daggers? In my opinion they have the coolest fighting style out of any villain group in the game. The way they twirl around and stick that little shiv in your gut is wicked! Well done with those!!

Also like Sonics so far. On the fence about all the elves running around with their little bows and arrows, but whatever.

Then the bad news...

Really, really, hate the way Inv was changed. Like most, I agree it was due for a step down in power, but like many, I also agree that the way you did it was way off base. There were ways suggested well prior to I5 that would have brought Inv "in line" without changing the "flavor" of the set. Yes, Inv can still survive, but it no longer feels the same. It's not the set I signed up for andit's not the same character I leveled to 50. I'll leave it at that in lieu of the many other threads on this topic and the fact that they were ignored too.

The crashing, dear god, do something about the crashing!!! I didn't have a single problem under I4 outside of the occasional map server disconnect, but the first week I5 was out I crashed to the desktop 7 times in one night, 1 of those locked the system and forced a hard reboot! It's gotten better, but I still get at least 1 crash to desktop a night in 2.5 hours of playing.

Last, I'd just like to comment on your lack of communication. Both personally and collectively from your dev team. It may be that I'm spoiled coming from the Bioware community and before that the Epic Games community. But it seems that you (Cryptic) have taken an oath of silence recently. And I do mean recently. I came to COH a month prior to I4. When I got here (to the forums) it seemed like I'd lucked out again and gotten attached to a game with an active dev team who was both involved in the forums and friendly with the majority of the customer base. The change from that to the deafening silence witnessed prior to I5 and continuing even now is drastic.

I take it as an insult to our intelligence when there are page after page of "Dev Response" threads populated by nothing but an original statement of intent, hundreds of posts for and against by the community, followed only by a restatement of intent. No discussion happened in all but a few cases and in one case (Phase Shift) there was no response AT ALL! That's just ridiculous.

I'd really like to see you post a real "Balance Vision" somewhere here for us all to read. Not one filled with anecdotes about handheld games, but one filled with a breakdown of where you see the role of each AT, in and out of team, how you see that relating to PvE and PvP, and how they stack up in your mind against/with the Villain ATs of COV. It would also be nice to see some real, honest, discussion about your views on PvP vs PvE and how to deal with changes to powers and powersets that seem to be changing only as a result of PvP. Many of us just don't believe you when you tell us that certain powers are not working as intended a full year or more after being implemented and then looking at COV powersets and seeing the real answer.

In summary, I'm not a fan of I5. It has good points, but they are overshadowed, in my mind, by the seeming heavy handedness of the dev team, and you in particular. In all honesty Jack, I can adapt to any nerfs that may come, and I fully intend to at least give COV a test run. But if you keep treating the community with indifference and feeding us made up BS, I don't intend to stick around for much longer. And that's too bad because I really like this game.

[/Novel] sorry...

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I5: Overpowered but fun. (Sorta godmode fun, but still fun)

I4: Overpowered but irritating.

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Pretty much agree with you Sword...but aren't these backwards?

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Geko and I were both surprised to find out that the powers system already DID this

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I realize that CoH's direction has gotten me touchy and paranoid these last few months, but....

Anyone else bothered by that phrase?

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I'm more bothered by what immediately followed...

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If it involved engineering, we would have found a different solution.

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Could that account for why they decided to nerf powers (mostly consisting of decreasing a stat's base value in a database) instead of improving mob AI (actual coding/work involved) in order to bring "challenge" to the game?

It does make one wonder...

The faces of Rikka Faust Inv/EM on Victory.