Yogi_Bare

Not quite what I was pointing out (was just showing some parallels between the citizenry under authoritarian rule and citizenry under democratic rule); comparable 'freedom(s)' under differing systems.

Wasn't really touching base on Cole, but I will at this point; since there was discussion on systems being evil (diverging from the people that head them being evil).

We're assuming Cole is in control. He may or may not be. Maybe the Well is in control. It's possible that he's just an overpowered figurehead and his Praetors are really running the show (which is what it really appears like to me, atm. IMO). There could be something that hasn't been revealed yet.

But for the sake of argument, lets assume that Cole is the undisputed head honcho.

If Cole, as an individual, is evil enough to corrupt the system he's using to be likewise; then so can a democratic system be corrupted to allow control to be maintained by a group representing a similar evil (instead of an individual). The method of removal concerning these evils; whether its by force or vote is somewhat irrelevant being that in either case... the evil can be 'removed' (or at least, exchanged).

I would even venture to say that the main relevance it would hold is how we would classify our removal of Cole; as a Primal or as a Praetorian. Good or Evil? Are we taking into account the risks that come with his removal (at this point in the active story) or are we just fighting Fire with Fire burning everyone in the process (collateral damage)? Or both...

As stated earlier, I don't think think this is Good vs. Evil anymore; its Evil vs. Evil. The conversation is leaning towards which Evil is preferable (Chaotic or Lawful). It may be more difficult for those who primarily dwell blueside to see that angle... but some redsiders already know the conflict for what it is; a basic power struggle to gain control at some capacity.

At least a portion of our evil (Primal) isn't fighting their evil for the betterment of both societies (except to satisfy limited game mechanics and storytelling - there's a spoiler hidden in there); its doing so, so it can fill the void once that challenge to their seat of power is removed.

The other portion of our evil (also Primal) is fighting their evil so that our evil can be allowed to run its chaotic course (because if they were really serious about preventing evil, they would have to start modeling their actions (here and there) after the evil they're supposed to be fighting).

Heck, if it weren't for our selfish desire to stay alive; we wouldn't even acknowledge his regime and the poor victims that reside under it.


[***at this point, my brain is fried... if you still want to continue this; then catch me after the boards come back up tomorrow ***]

Funny thing about what you're saying... and what I challenge my fellow Patriots to point out; is how much of their 'chain of command' allows for democratic participation.

Many parents don't allow it.
The education system limits it.
Many workplace environments probably frown down upon it.
Even some residential communities limit it.
Better not bring the ballot box to church either.

Actually, this is kind of ironic. Without the sonic fencing and whatever else Cole & Co. pulled out of their butts [and the maintenance of such]; this conversation would be irrelevant. There would be no Resistance, no Ghouls, no Praetoria... nothing.

[And w/o getting into too much detail; he's pretty much damned if he does and damned if he doesn't]. The term collateral damage comes to mind.


And aren't almost all depicted utopias pretty much like Praetoria (nice on the surface but subject to either the catastrophes of the strictest controls or catastrophes of hedonist excess)?

There's kind of a 'The Matrix' parallel at work here. Cole would be akin to the big facey thing in 'Revolutions'; creating and maintaining a system of controls. [I guess the Praetors would be more like the Architect and the Oracle]. The dutiful Agents/Squids; more like the Seer Network. The Resistance would be like the citizens of Zion and First Ward is kind of like the whole Rogue program scenario.

The people are 'doped' for the entirety of their lives and serve to maintain the 'utopian' system while threats to that system are weeded out.

The system itself is no more evil than our food chain system. It just is; no matter what feelings may be manifested by those involved.

There's no wholesale slaughter or destruction of humanity; just pruning when necessary to preserve the stability of the system.

[Okay, I'm done editing this thing... anything else comes to mind; I'll put it in a new post, lol]

Maybe I have a really good porn collection...

What broken oath?

What I'm saying is that the only definition they can give to morality in general is the one they've taken upon themselves.

That being said, if there was such a thing as absolute morality[,] any interpretation of that absolute is akin to defining it... and we should be well aware of the diversity of interpretation.

Laws are transient and are only equal to the morality of the region and time. If you're equating morality to the letter of the law; then in South Dakota, it is moral to kill a group of three or more Natives (as they constitute a War Party). It would've also been moral to uphold the Jim Crow laws and items like the 3/5ths Compromise... as it represented the laws and moralities of their respective times.

My personal moral standard is fairly subjective so you really prove nothing by asking me. All I can do is ask how these examples you're citing are different from many of the deities that they ascribe to?

There's plenty that would yak at me all day about the actions of Nazi Germany (without which, Hitler would have had no power) being evil and in the same breath would tell me how wonderful their genocidal messiah is. That's a moral dual-standard and I tend to take people that hold to that with a grain of salt.

There's many that would also run around decrying the Islam hardline but also, in the same breath, claim that their Christianity is flawless; despite the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Hunts, US Slavery, southern church bombings, etc.

People even bring their subjective morality into politics and cause a great divide because they choose to perceive or interpret (possibly the same moral code) [] differently.

Man create[s] [] moral code and [] change[s] it exhaustively to meet his subjective needs. Man doesn't necessarily adhere to moral codes as much as they adhere to him.

There may be axioms that make for good common sense to prevent the extinction of the species but beyond that there's probably a good deal of fluff.

Off the cuff:

'Frailty'
'Supernatural'
'Dogma'

Up to this point (on the Live servers), how much do the characters (Primal, Praetorian, Loyalist, Resistance, Hero, Villain) actually know? What do they believe themselves to be stopping or propagating?

As far as the subjective moral question goes, there are parallels currently in RL that could answer that for some people (although its more likely to cause more chaos than clarity)

I can't speak for everybody's villain but being that I have toons that have completed his TF, I know he's at least talking to a few of mine.

[Although those that haven't forced Kal into their employ may still get the information from the Midnight Squad or Arachnos]

Prometheus isn't holding his daughter captive, the player Villain is.

Oh, the parallels!

He doesn't. He's reporting to the Villain players that completed his arc (in Sharkhead); found in the redside tip missions.

The big issue I have with this type of perspective is the same issue that makes me lean towards agnosticism. "It's my way or the highway... Highway to Hell."

The Flood, Job, the set up in the Garden, Jonah, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc... all the same type of vibe to me and yet, he is still the Big Benevolence.

Not necessarily... zone events may still be open to all players.

What?!? That's straight up Old Testament type stuff right there!

It seemed like a pretty standard George S. Patton to me...

Or they become like a hive-mind and continue their aggressions in tandem.

So the clones wouldn't retain the crazy notion of continuing what their predecessor started.