WindchillFactor

Thats kinda the point I was trying to make.
Right now Icicles accounts for close to 50-65% of my total damage when soloing. That can get higher if I'm street fighting and get bigger groups.
Now before you got complaining about AoE slack. I'm an Ice/Fire, with permHasten. My main attacks are combustion, FSC, and Breath of Fire. They each to tons of damage, but they do take quite a bit of end, especially coupled with Icicles.
The good part is you can let yourself heal up a bit and you are still outputting damage.
I'm not at home so I can't double check, but I think Icicles is slotted 2 end red, 1 acc, and 3 damage.
For kicks last night after I was posting, I tried running without Icicles for the night. My end wasn't as bad, but it still wasn't good. As for damage, I did alot less without Icicles, because I still had to take those same breaks waiting for end, and I wasn't dealing any damage.

I'm gonna try getting some better data from Herostats over the next few days to try and base it upon. So I can give a better view of what I'm doing.

Really though, my opinion seems to be leaning towards the fact that for the end we pay for it, Icicles needs a tweak. Maybe not a end reduction, but maybe a secondary effect of some sort. An acc debuff, or maybe a slow as well if it will stack well with CE. Nothing huge, but every little poke with an Icicle would cause it perhaps so it adds up.

Because honestly, right now we have 3 or 4 powers in the set that people aren't taking on a regular basis. Permafrost(obviously), and Icicles, Hoarfrost, and Hibernate are all debatable. And usually these are being given up to take power pools that are seen as absolutely needed.

For now we'll keep debating it, and see if the Devs pay any attention.

OK, now, I've tried to break this down here with my scribble pad.

First acknowledge that
-Damage outamage out end cost for all secondaries is Constant, lets call it Y.
-Damage outamage out end cost for each Primary will vary, lets call it X
-Damage inamage in end cost for each Primary will vary, lets call this guy Z (Now this assumes that it is either Def, or Res)

So, if thats all true then we should get a silly formula that looks like this I think
X+Y*Z=A
where A is the magic tanker balance number
But that seems too easy to apply the Defense ratio as a multiplier.

Not to mention that that Defense ratio changes depending on the number of mobs and the con, as Circ has already shown.

Thats where I get really confuzzled. But I figured, maybe someone else can step from there, or point out where I jack-knived into the ditch. In the mean time I'm sure it will crowd my thoughts as I play.

OK, Circeus, and anyone else.
I went and re-read Circ's calcs, and finally my mind realized it needed to work and I realized what we were comparing.
Between my skewed thinking on what we were comparing, and those calcs, I think I may have realized what the missing component is here.
Gonna burp it out then see if it makes any sense raw.

When we are comparing Ice, we are flat comparing to another set. Usually, Inv/*. BUT, the set has something Inv doesn't, Damage, Icicles. The game is 2 way. Damage in, Damage out.

So, that would mean, from a primary perspective. If we had a fight with just primary power, and brawl, we'd have the advantage (yay, lets get rid of all secondaries).

So really, what we are supposed to have is a defensive power, that helps soften the baddies a little. Because like you said, all secondaries have equal access.
So, therefore, like I had surmised from the end post I made a bit ago. Icicles, is supposed to be our edge, but its crippling us.

The 44% is a number for an infinite fight, but fights are finite.
If Damage out > Damage in = Win, If Damage in > Damage out = death.

So, then, we have to assure the following
Damage out end cost + Damage in end cost <= Endurance recovered.

That would mean we have to have a ratio of Damage outamage out end cost.
This ratio is where we should be ahead of the Inv tanker.

From a balance stand point, we'd need to determine this ratio for Fire tanks as well, and we would need to be below them but above invuln.

Now lemme post this before I get to the hurful part . . .
the numbers.

OK, well, if thats the case then I guess we should be really looking towards another end drop in icicles.

Otherwise we'd want to try and avoid it mostly.
So really a power that should give us an edge, is helping cripple us.

So for minor tweaks then, if we broght Icicles end cost down in line with BA, .75 and put our EA cap at 10 instead of 5. I'd almost think we'd be a bit more survivable. But, how would that affect our 44%?
How does damage dealt, to prevent damage in affect the equation?

[ QUOTE ]
but really the End usage running CE/FA/WI/GA at the same time is only 0.2-0.3 more than Invulns Inv/TI/Uy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you using these numbers as a per tick or per second end use? If per second, where are you finding these ones so I can update mine.
I show Invuln with TI, Uy, Inv using 1.06/sec without end red.
and Ice Just with FA/WI/CE as 1.64/sec, don't micromange, and just flat add GA to that brings you to 1.98, then Icicles takes you to 2.98. almost 2.5 times the end usage. Without stamina that gives you a loss of 1.31/second.

Now I'm using the end costs out of CoH Hero Builder, because they seemed to match what I was finding on the boards when I got it. So you know where I'm pulling my data from.

[ QUOTE ]
the 44% case I've been touting

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the rational behind the 44%, but thats on one 'round' of combat. You are assuming that a inv/* and a ice/* take the same number of attacks in a given combat.
I'm sure most will agree that Ice is going to be a slow battle. If you solo, very slow, if you are the tank on the team slightly less slow because you can't add that offensive punch to the team. Really, the Inv tanker has more end to play with to throw more attacks, plus an acc buff to hit better. The Ice tank is managing end with toggles going, and having much less end to attack with, and since he has so many slots in defense powers now, he hits less often, and likely for less damage.

So really, an Ice tank would be in that fight between 2-4 times as long. Thereby taking 2-4 times as much damage, increasing that number to 88%-176%. I'd assume 3x on average for a soft number of 132% for a total fight.

The real swing things here that make us so much less viable, seem to be end, and accuracy really. But accuracy buff is copycat. But maybe, for the end that it costs we add def debuff to icicles. Then it might be a better trade off for the cost.

OK, haven't quite made it through the last page of this long post, but before I loose my train of thought, I figured I'd post an idea.
Before that tho, props to Circeus, you have the ice tank community in mind and don't present us as a whiney bunch of 'wanna be 133ts'

After about a dozen or so people giving examples of how outclassed they are by Inv/* tankers, and a couple off posts about how its because they are autos, I realized, thats not quite it exactly. Its Endurance.

I don't have the time for super number right now, but maybe someone could run this. From what I can calculate on the fly, the abilities that Ice needs to pickup, we'll say FA, CE, WI, icicles, which you get by lvl 12 (8 lvls before stamina) you are spending end at almost twice the rate you regen it. So that means that you are only getting by, and hurting yourself attacking, IF you put 1 end reducer in each of those powers.

Now, I don't think I've heard of an Ice tank not 6slotting stamina, and running about those same toggles. So atleast now you are gaining end like a non-stamina person (and remember its assumed EVERYONE will take stamina). So you have enough to attack like a 20- character.

I play Ice/Fire, and lean more towards AoE, so I know I chew through guys a little quicker than most. But when those are recharging, I know its alot of little whiffs on guys, watch my end, see how close stuff is to recharging, and maybe swing again.

We spend alot of time in the middle of a group of guys, trying to keep our defense up while doing end management trying to see if we can fight back. With the damage output of Fire, and the lesser end worries of Inv, they put up a good offense too.
Remember, sometimes a good offense can be the best defense.

So maybe its adding to powers that we need, but go back and give us some end loving and reduce the costs a bit.