Anglican

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It seems that for the most part, in CoV any control a dom brings to a team is either redundant or it's not enough. Controllers don't have this issue because of containment.

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Controllers dont have this issue because they bring basically the same functional support as a defender, plus as good damage as anyone else with containment. Remember, their damage is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH lower than a doms against an AV, because they do their double damage attacks 33% of the time AT MOST. Comparing a fire/fire dom to any troller, and the the damage WITH containment is similar, and WITHOUT containment isnt even close.

Ifs its only a case of damage, I would take a dom (fire or otherwise) over a troller every time if the hold is only going to work 33% of the time.

In reality, the controller damage is icing on the cake, the buff/debuff from their secondary is why they are never a bad choice for a team mate.

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Anglican.. that 33% double damage thing is wrong. At least it's wrong for any controller who isn't illusion or Mind.

AV triangle's don't effect immobilizes. So, they can still get 'containment'

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Ah, my bad. My troller is too low to fight AVs (well, he could fight Vahz, but they arent common at that level), didnt think about the immobs (plus, as illusion, he doesnt even get immobs).

I have to say, though, my tank never thought of controllers as doing good damage in AV fights. It was always "a defender plus control too". This may have been a hold over from pre-containment days, as I was getting close to 50 by the time containment came in.

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It seems that for the most part, in CoV any control a dom brings to a team is either redundant or it's not enough. Controllers don't have this issue because of containment.

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Controllers dont have this issue because they bring basically the same functional support as a defender, plus as good damage as anyone else with containment. Remember, their damage is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH lower than a doms against an AV, because they do their double damage attacks 33% of the time AT MOST. Comparing a fire/fire dom to any troller, and the the damage WITH containment is similar, and WITHOUT containment isnt even close.

Ifs its only a case of damage, I would take a dom (fire or otherwise) over a troller every time if the hold is only going to work 33% of the time.

In reality, the controller damage is icing on the cake, the buff/debuff from their secondary is why they are never a bad choice for a team mate.

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EDIT: just to add, yeah, i got hatemail in my inbox. blew my mind. I'm generally to the point but I don't try to troll. Suprised the hell out of me.

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Well, as someone often accused as a "prodomite", I have never PM'd anyone about a post. If I disagree I post why, but thats really as much so everyone seeing it can get the dissenting opinion, rather then for the sake of arguing.

I have gotten PMs from people who strongly disagreed with me, but even then, it was still trying to convince me of something, wasnt hate mail.

Sheesh. Sorry to hear that.

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My opinion?

Better performance outside of Domination.

More damage.


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Been done, didnt change anything. Need more? Do you significanly contribute to teams if you use red inspirations, but dont when you dont use them? Its the same thing as a damage boost for the AT. My answer is, I dont see a 5% or 10% damage boost doing anything for us in teams, and making soloing a little easier, which is more than easy enough for me already.

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More HP.


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Makes you better on a team how, exactly? I have an accolade that gives me a 10% boost. Its made no difference. I have seen posts from others with a 15% or more boost, makes no difference (per their post). Unless we have a boost to allow us to take the alpha, I dont see this changing any complaints at all.

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Controller mez duration.


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We already have much better durations and mags than a corruptor, but still have claims that corrutors have ENOUGH control and so are better than doms. Well, same arguement here. Doms have more than enough control. Adding a little more will make the AOE holds a little better when unslotted, and the rest will be unnoticable (IMO).

I do think the AOE holds recharge is too long, as its up for one or two times/mission, and should be up more than that (IMO), considering that if you slot it three recharge, the duration would be pitiful.

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Better numbers from the Leadership pool.


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Give us the best numbers, and still assault, tactics and manuvers are pitiful. This is like the same control as controllers, its more an irritation from trying to see why the devs did it, than really getting anything out of it.

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Better PPPs. I think it's already too late on this one, but it still needs to be said. Specifically, I'd like to see Dominators get access to the broadly useful Controller APP powers like Hibernate, Earth's Embrace, and Indomitable Will, as well as see Build Up in one or more of the pool. As is, they get very few utility powers in the 40+ game.


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Agree with this for the most part. I like water spout, and I like the armor I have, but its not as good as some possible power combos (IW would have been nice, heals, etc). Still, I have liked the Mako PPP more than I thought I would.

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I dunno. Defenders can do the same thing Corruptors can, as they have the same stacking of buffs and debuffs. In fact, they can do it better, because they get better numbers from their powers than Corruptors do, and with 8 people buffing and debuffing base damage becomes largely immaterial. Do you think Defenders are overpowered? Do they make it worthless to play any other hero AT?

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Actually, all defender teams are almost sick in what they can do, but it rarely happens. More often, defenders are so totally outshined by controllers no one considers them overpowered.

Plus, defenders dont get some of the better corruptor attack primaries (I have been underwelmed with the damage from my dark/dark corruptor).

However, the fact is, if there was a TF similar to the LRSF, defenders and controllers would be the required class, at least 4 or 5 of these would be considered required. Its really not the corruptors adding damage that make them required on the LRSF, its their debuffing/buffing/healing.

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Whether or not a dom can "out-control" a corruptor is irrelevant because a corruptor can provide enough control.

Consider brutes. A granite brute can tank the entire last mission of the RSF. Personally, while I consider that to be clearly "out-controlling" a dominator, all that matters is that it's enough control. So... are brutes overpowered as well?


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A granite brute can tank WITH THE SUPPORT OF MANY CORRUPTORS. I think this is a vitally important point. I think a LRSF with 1 corruptor would fail even if it had all the remaining members were granite brutes. First, in granite form brutes dont do great damage (DPS is low actually). Second, they still cant solo tank an AV, much less 5 AVs. I know this because granite TANKS cant do it, so its clear the brute is weaker. However, with corruptor support, they can tank it and so can other brutes (just not as well).


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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor (except for stalker heavy teams), but for months trying to get that point out on these forums got me hate-mail.


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Hard to believe you got any mail at all about this (prob just people posting that disagreed with you), but I consider this hyperbole. Other than AVs, a dom can completely 100% mitigate any damage at all from anything else in the game (bosses take ~7 seconds instead of 1 second). I dont know if I can say a dom is a BETTER choice, but most of the time they are as good as choice. Powers such as ice slick, seeds of confusion, mostly remove the need for healing (no incoming damage) and are better than debuffing, unless there are multiple corruptors on the team. Corruptors stack better than other ATs, which is why they are so good in the LRSF.

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Corruptors are not overpowered. They have a role and they fulfill it. As do Brutes.

Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.

The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.

I'm not trying to troll, I sincerely would like to see something changed - mostly the click-nature of the inherent - to make what is clearly a team-oriented AT useful in that scenario. But the reality is that currently, on a good 8-man team, a dominator adds exactly nothing. The fact that people are seeing this same problem in RSF is no surprise to me. The AT needs a boost. Badly.

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Well, first, I can solo a large 8 man spawn with my AOE hold up on my dom (power boosted AOE hold, most dead before start cycling ST hold and laying down the slick). Its the multiple AVs, with their triangles, that really make a dom less useful, combined with the stacking of corruptors that make it better to just keep adding corruptors.

On an 8 man team, I easily carry my share and often more. Versus 8 AVs, I can easily see why I wouldnt carry my share. Even versus 1 AV, I dont consider myself to carry the share of the load I'm used to carrying. Its a problem caused by the decision to reduce the effectiveness of AOE holds and holds versus AVs (and players in PVP).

I heard that doms needed more damage when I first started playing one. They added melee damage, and no change at all in the complaints. They reduced domination cycle time, so it can be up more, still no reduction in complaints. Unless they change Doms to high damage and make us the COV version of blasters, I dont see damage boosts making us better team mates, nor does adding health (another running suggestion).

Whatever the solution is, it has to address the lack of allowed controls vs AVs and in PVP.

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And not suprisingly the Corruptor comes out on top. So are the other ATs underpowered? Or is the Corruptor over powered? Only a Red name knows the answer for sure.

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Or, are defenders screwed, in that in the one area they should shine brightest, the ATs with their primary as a secondary get about the same benefit for the team as having a defender on it.

In other words, why have a defender when you can have a controller? Or, why have a defender when you can have a corruptor (if changeovers can happen)?

The devs seem to think defenders are the best overall balanced AT, but they are weaker then any of the ATs which have their primary as a secondary.

So, its ok to have a damage secondary doing 50-60 % damage, but a defender secondary is 80%, and with some powers, work better for a troller than a defender. Plus, some powers dont have a number to be adjusted to 80%. Why dont trollers and corruptors get 55% of the defender base?

Really, corruptors being good on teams dont bother me, what bothers me is that doms dont get to use their powers vs AVs and in PVP.

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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.

Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.

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However funny this may appear, it is a valid point of view. Its the flip side of the same mirror. If (as some say) corruptors can out control a dom, its clearly a design flaw with corruptors, as they should have no ability to get close to dom level of control. Plus, controls have been nuked as too strong (vs AVs, AOE holds, etc), so if they have more controls than doms, surely corruptors need nerf. Not saying I agree with it, but its surely reasonable.

I dont know ice corruptors, so will stick with a dark corruptor.

The reason I see my dark corrutor as strong on a team, is not the damage (dark damage really isnt that good, IMO), but the AOE debuffs.

You have tar patch (- resistance and slow), darkest night (-damage, -acc), and shadowfall has an aoe buff (+defense and +resistance). Discounting the pet, thats a decent amount of damage reduced via +resist +def on team, -damage and -acc on mobs. Further, taking the case of 5 of them on a team, you now have all of the AVs bottomed out, because all of these effects overlap.

To me, its the overlap and triangles (ie. holds dont work) that really make the difference. If our AOE holds could be made perma, so 5 doms could spam AOE holds and the AVs didnt have triangles, then we would be as welcome as corruptors on the LRSF.

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The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting.

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Consensus among whom? If the issues were more accurate, and the clique more reasonable I would have no problems with such a thread.

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Consenus of EVERYONE on the board. That is why its hard to get some issues into it.

Accuracy on the issues depends on who writes it as an issue, and then if the majority of people who post agree its an issue.

This means you have as much ability to try to change what is listed as anyone else. But, if its controversial (ie, plainly not supported by a clear majority), then you can post it somewhere else and argue its merits on its on, but its not in the thread.

I have had several things I wanted in it that didnt make it, as have others Im sure. But, on the whole, its the best single place for devs to go to see what is a problem that isnt just one or two vocal people's opinions.

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Just because the forum clique agrees on something and writes it in there, doesn't mean the other 99% of the playerbase automatically feels that way, or even a majority.

The truth is it's useless trying to argue with this forum's clique, so I don't even read or participate with that thread. What is the point? We will just get responses like yours in this thread.

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I think there is a big difference in perception between the people who belong to the top VGs on the one hand, and the people who play solo/PuGs on the other.

....because they don't have that much experience with other ATs or because they are not playing on the kind of teams where the differences show up so starkly.

I am fine with people having different perceptions of the AT, but I think it's too bad that the people who support doms sometimes seem to feel so beleaguered that they resort to insults and invective.

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Wanted to reply to these two posts specifically. The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting. It avoids proposing solutions to try to limit any flamming and arguing. If thats bad to post in, then I support your not posting whole heartedly.

Second, I love a post complaining about people being attacked, while impling total ignorance on anyone who doesnt agree with your position. Top VG members - being who exactly?

Further, its really independant of who they are. This is a simple "you agree with me, or are one of those ignorant people that dont know what other ATs play like, or are just used to being on poor teams". Either way, it dismisses out of hand any opinion or experience that disagrees with the poster.

I have a simple position on this. Doms do as good as any AT, outside of AV fights and PVP, which is easy to understand as the devs have instituted methods to eliminate controls (our primary) in both of those cases (triangles and BFs). In other words, doms are reasonably balanced on the whole when allowed to use their powers. This is why when I fight an AV/EB, I simply take 4 lucks and start fighting. The controls dont help in the fight, due to triangles. In PVP, its clear why they cant let holds work for the full duration, but it (BFs) still screws the AT over.

Sadly, the LRSF is one case where not being allowed to use your powers (ie holds) will really be determintal to your team. I think its not hard to see that stalkers and doms would be left out of this SF, and dont understand the devs thinking on this at all.

Last point - Hami raids need 1 tank, some healers, and a boat load of controllers. Scrappers can replace the tank, but arent needed at all. Blasters arent required, though they can blow stuff up well (always appreciated). If you arent the one tank for the Hami, tanks are just luggage. However, Hami is set up to be a massive lag fest, so luggage is all over the place, and as long as you damage hami, you get your HO.

The LRSF should be less laggy, and more fun than a hami raid. However, they have made it so 2 classes are a drag on it. Or, this SF is tough enough to clearly show the gaps in the system, maybe. In any case, it creates a showcase for corruptors, while leaving doms and stalkers out of it.

Well, to answer the last post, I have been on teams where the brute could not handle the alpha. Ice slick, the spawn is no longer attacking, and the brute felt safe to run in and wail away on them.

On my doms (fire/fire and ice/nrg) the damage is pretty decent at the upper end.

I find my ice/nrg dom does well in teams and they like having the slick plus holds. However, is he felt to be a huge difference compared to a ice/dark corruptor? Well, fearstare would often elicit the alpha on the corruptor, so it doesnt work as well, but if the alpha is weak enough for the brute, then fearstare stops the return attacks about the same way.

I tend to get invited to a lot of teams, which are from people I teamed with in the past. This makes me pretty certain that they percieve some decent level of benefit to my presence.

However, in AV conflicts and PVP, I dont feel my dom carries a fair load.

Does this equate to an AT sucking? Not to me, as I can solo and team acceptably with two exceptions (which are rarely in the PVE game until very high levels).

Still, I do wish those two exceptions were fixed.

Would be nice if they took the damage resistance from unyielding and gave it to the passives, making them worth taking. Then, unyielding would be mez protection only, and you could consider skipping it and using BFs instead.

With no unyielding penalty, and with TH, you could make a tougher tank at the expense of being more vulnerable to mez attacks.

It would at least be an option, that way.

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Well the question wasn't: Are doms fine as they are? The question was : Do Doms suck? And the answer is no they do not suck.

I will continue to argue that they do not suck

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heh, what other AT do you need a forum guide to make a passable build? Are the majority of the Dominators you team with going to be forum lurkers who have read ever guide to make the best use of the down time between domination to create crack attack chains that optomize control and hth atacks to do the max damage?

How many guides does it take to use Fury properly?
How many guides does it take to use Scourge properly?

I think the title is valid, as one should not have to read multiple guides to make a passable character and since you don't become powerful until your do/so days and you will never reach SO if you delete your toon before you hit 14.

The majority of players do not read the forums, I hear
therefore, the majority of dominators, don't, IMHO

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Actually, MM is pretty tough if you dont read the guides, as the command interface is pretty pitiful if you dont make key binds (IMO). A sucky MM who cant control his pets is a team wipe waiting to happen.

Tanks also can be gimped by deciding to not take 1 or 2 powers very easily, and the power description really doesnt tell you the data you need to make a decision. For instance, an invul tank without temnp invul, invincible and unyielding but with the passives will get wiped easily and be a pitiful excuse for a tank.

For that matter, I often skip the fast recharge/low damage attack on my toons, but for my brute, he really needs to use brawl and the weakest attack in the primary to build fury asap. Further, he is nrg/nrg, and I didnt see any guides on building those, but I knew to skip the passives as I was sure they would make the passives very weak, same as invul (which I found was correct).

The list goes on and on. Imagine a stalker who read hide and didnt know how it impacted AS? The power description needs to include numbers, so you can make good decisions. The guidebook helps with its standard builds, but maybe you dont want to play the 1 stalker build in the book.

Doms are tricky, but I dont know they are that much more tricky than some other ATs. I think the easiest are blasters and scrappers and brutes, as they mainly rely on attacks, so they are almost always at least ok.

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58 pages in a short time and still growing strong.
I think that, in spite of what the "doms are just fine group" say, this alone is evidence that many people agree that doms need some "dev love".
Plus we are seeing many people who have played doms to high levels and played multiple doms who agree that doms need something.
Does that mean doms "suck"? Maybe suck is to strong of a word, but yes it does mean that doms need looking at.
However, grav doms suck by definition (pun ).

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Actually, what 58 pages mean is its controversial. If everyone agreed (either way), it wouldnt go 5 pages typically.

I find my ice/nrg dom and fire/fire dom do adequate damage for the ability to halt all incoming attacks. I see the following issues:

1) Control has been nuked in some arenas - BFs in PVP and triangles in AVs, where control is no longer allowed, we need some help/buffing. More damage would help some, but I think it wont be enough, its really more a case of a control AT not being allowed to control.

2) Some AOE effects need to be evaluated, from a dom POV for recharge/duration. AOE holds recharge much too slowly for their duration for a dom. Further, some primaries have to rely on soft controls that use sleep, which is extremely weak compared to stun/disorients. Its a shame many doms skip the AOE holds because of their overall lack of usefulness. This is a large part of people preferring fearsome stare (corruptor power) to flash freeze (or glacier, as it not available to be used).

3) Control powers that come close to dom's holds in effectiveness need to be reined in. Melee stuns, disorients, knockback can be used as effectively or more effectively than most of our controls, with the AT that uses that power having more health, more damage, better defence and resistance. Other ATs dont see the value in control, as they essentially have the control themselves. One example is nrg melee, another is ice/dark corruptors (with PPP 4 holds? Doms have maybe 2?).

A little extra damage wouldnt hurt, but I dont see it fixing any of the complaints about doms. I think the root problems are above.

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Best case scenario is Ice Patch and Flashfire --and they are rarely up, pre-SO,


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Ice patch is up fairly often, with hasten and 3 slots in recharge (possible at level 13?). If you open with it so the brute doesnt take the alpha, by the time the fight is over on a high difficulty setting, its usually recharged.

Take a fire/fire, by level 16 you can be doing hot feet, FE + fire breath, then incinerate and fire blast (and, dang it, flares I guess, till you get blaze). FE can be up pretty often, with hasten and 3 recharge slots (level 17).

I just havent seen the slowness, nor the no team benefit, except for AVs with triangles, which arent around much till later levels. Oh, and in PVP, thanks to BFs.

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In response to the original poster:

When ever I get asked this question by somebody just starting out in CoV, I tell them pretty much the same thing, unless I don't like them: Don't.
Particularly if you expect to solo a lot. Stay away. Far away. If you've got a good bunch of people? Yeah. Go for it. Expect to rely on others for survival, though, much more than every other AT in the game other than Stalkers.

Further corrupting the pool, of course, is that roughly 90% of the teams I'm on never consider adding a dominator, unless the person picking the team is a dominator. Even in those cases, we usually only have that one. It /could/ be that nobody plays dominators, but if nobody's playing them, are they actually any fun to play?

Thing is, they /can/ be fun to play, but it practially requires a harmonic convergance sort of factors to combine into a perfect storm kind of thing.
All-in-all, even brainiacs like brutes more than dominators. Play a dominator only if you're into sadomasochism.

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This seems significantly misleading. First, most teams I am on are PUGs, and they are looking for bodies, more than a specific AT ratio. They might prefer some AT over another, but unless they are doing a SF, they take whoever is looking more than anything.

Second, I and many other players have soloed doms without any real problems, no harmonic convergence required. If you want to run in, and just autofire attack, yes, doms arent for you. However, no IQ test is required.

For me, doms are more fun to play than the other ATs. I dont find them hard to solo either. I have played on the highest difficulty and solo'd fine. More accurately, they have a certain playstyle. If you like it, its fun. If you dont, you wont.

Doms are not super powerhouse PVP builds, but they solo fine, depending on the normal variables (powerset chosen, powers selected as you raise, slotting, tactics, etc).

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Dominators can get into parties, I'm not denying that--in fact I specifically said they would take them.

Even on Liberty, with your good experiences, are you seeing high demand?

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On Justice, I tend to get a lot of invites, but they are almost all from people who know me and have played with me. I met them in a PUG, but after that its a friend list team.

I dont see any one looking specifically for doms, or stalkers for that matter. I generally havent seen much looking for a specific AT at all in COV until the previous patch with the stupid AV regen boost. That created a big demand for corruptors.

I have also seen some people stating that the respec required X corruptors and y brutes, but I proved that was wrong (my repsecs that failed had those compositions, and the one that made it didnt) to myself.

Last, I generally see people looking for SF members, but again, I think they want bodies more than a specific AT.

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I agree about Ice Slick, but that is unique to Ice and I have never been in that situation...

I think its the exception rather than the rule


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Not sure, but I use ice slick throughout fights on my ice dom, and they basically do more for a brute than heals, as he never gets hurt to need healing. Slick with hasten and three recharges is basically up about the time its duration is over, so its almost perma, and while up, the mobs attack once in a blue moon. Slick doesnt work on Moo or Knockdown resistant mobs, but I rarely find them other than on EBs/AVs.

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Dominatorr don't enable tanking the way Corruptors can (or multiple brutes or a even a good A/S)


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Depends on the dom, and what they are doing. Ice slick is the best example I have, due to my main being ice/nrg dom. However, fire/fire can throw a bonfire (no alpha, as they are all picking themselves up off the floor), but thats really only good if near a wall or a corner so the mobs stay grouped for AOEs. Flashfire usually isnt a good alpha tactic, as they can often hit you before the stun takes affect, but it is good to eliminate incoming damage from the entire spawn AFTER the alpha.

AOE holds are much better then buffs/debuffs/healing as no one on the team takes any damage at all, but they have such a long recharge that they are rarely able to be used. Sleeps require the team to not use AOEs and only attack the one mob they want to take down next, which is possible but seems to not happen much on PUGs.

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I have never seen a dominator performing good tank support and I admit even my Mind/Fire doesn't really do it--people love to break my mass sleep so I save it for additional mobs, not sleeping the next pack and the next

I don't think Dominators were built that way..If I put my controller targeting a tank and start supporting him it works... If I do the same with my Dominator I get to control something just as the brute kills it, or I get slaughtered for using Melee too close to the Brute

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A dom supports a brute in a different way. One example is if there are two bosses, you hold the boss the brute isnt fighting, cutting the worst damage in the spawn in half. Of course, ice slick will keep both bosses and all lts and minions falling, so it stops all incoming damage to the brute, including the alpha.

Another way a dom supports the brute is by taking out the painful mobs, like sappers. A held sapper is nothing, a damage debuffed sapper can cause a team wipe. Or for another example, holding the succubus so team mates arent confused.

Please dont take this as me saying doms are as good in team support as corruptors, Im not saying as good. They do a great job against regular mobs, which is also when its noticed the least, because the threat level is low. Versus the real threats (GM, AVs, etc), holds dont work very often (maybe 33%), and so they arent worth much.

In fact, if aoe holds went back to being perma and AVs were affected, the poor attempt at control most corruptors have would be laughable. However, with AOE holds around once in a blue moon and AVs ignoring holds anyway, then fearstare is as good or better than a dom's hold. It works good against pukes, and mostly does what a hold can do.

I think this is the basis for part of the problem, that when doms hard controls dont work, we dont have the level of soft control we need.

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/signed

I wouldn't be rude enough to tell another player they rolled a gimp and they are just filling out the team to make it 8, but every time I'm rolling thru the early mish in CoV thats what I'm thinking about Dominators

Are they killing they're 3 mobs quickly (no)
Are they assisting the Brute tank (not really)
Are they taking/mitigating the Alpha (no)

Would I dump them in and instant for a Brute or Corruptor (yes)
Would I dump them in an instant for a Contoller or a Blaster (yes)

and the same is true for AV/Monster mish in the late game

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Hmm, got a question. Number 1 I understand, but it is and will always be true of a AT with a damage secondary.

#2 Are they assisting the brute/tank? In what way? If a boss is eating your brute alive and a dom holds him, isnt that assisting, as the brute/tank doesnt have to run? Further, early on, heals are weak, corruptors dont have many or any debuffs or holds, and brutes have poor defenses.

#3 are they taking/mitigating the alpha - from level 12, an ice dom can take the alpha using ice slick as long as they can place it using something to break line of sight, which is about 90% of the time. The slick stops return attacks, completely removing the alpha. Further, the dom can then lock down the most dangerous mob, short of a triangle AV/EB/GM.

Would you dump them? Sure, but that may be from your perception, not a fact of making the optimal team.

As for the late game, I agree that doms contribute less against AVs and GMs, because the dom main ability of bringing control has been nuked, while corruptor abilities have been kept the same or boosted.

Its much more severe in the case of the Lord Recluse SF, due to the multiple AVs. Corruptors debuffs tend to be AOE, and so stack on all the AVs at one time, while a doms are mainly single target, and so even if the dom can hold one AV, the corruptor is putting -X% damage/acc on all 5 AVs at one time, stacked with other corruptor debuffs.

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Solo, I can fight, but it takes me a full run-through of my chain (Dominate, Bone Smasher, Total Focus, Power Bolt, Power Blast) to kill an even-level Longbow minion. It's safe, but slow.


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I dont know your level or slotting, but from 40-43, 3 damage SOs, TF + power burst kills a minion, no hold required. A few mobs or +1 mobs may need to follow with brawl or any attack (ie. sliver left). Before 39 (for slotted power burst), TF + bonesmasher + any attack take down minions. Bolt/blast/brawl being interchangable as they are generally removing the last sliver of health.

However, TF has a 20 second recharge, so you may be throwing in attacking a minion in a spawn (where TF would only hit one of them), leaving an attack chain of bonesmasher, blast and bolt. After TF is used up for 20 seconds, it does take all three (and maybe another attack after that) to kill a minion.

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On a small team, my heavy control is overkill for the number of mobs we face, and my low damage slows the team down compared to if they'd taken, say, a Brute or Corruptor instead.

On a larger team, my AoE controls don't recharge fast enough to keep entire spawns locked down, and like it's been said, if your team can get by a spawn without you, they don't need you at all.


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Ice slick is great no matter the size of the team. Almost as good damage mitigation as a hold, up for every spawn, its a much appreciated power that ice doms bring. The AOE hold recharge is too long. It really needs to be up for each spawn, or close to it, and needs 2 acc enhancements and several hold duration enhancements to really make it worth while. This means AOE controls dont really get used much, and in fact, I skipped it on my fire/fire. AOE holds being up each spawn would make doms much better for teams.

AA is also ok for teams, same as HF. They have a good effect, but its hard to notice as its effects are real clear.

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Solo zone PvP, I'm free rep. I don't like it, but it's what ends up happening. I lack the damage to kill another player in a reasonable amount of time, and there's a worrysome number of things on hero side that can two-shot me.


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I find if I attack first, I tend to kill blasters, controllers, brutes and even tanks (if they arent ice tanks) in Warburg. I find doms do worse the lower the level of the PVP. Course, its nice when tanks dont carry BFs, but it helps a lot.

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Team zone PvP, I can do all right. People tend to carry a finite amount of Break Frees, and once you burn through that, you can start to see a real effect from a Dominator in the zone. Still an easy kill, though, and a single Empath entering the zone will pretty much shut you down.

Solo and team arena is the same problems as zone, only much worse because the maps are only 10 minutes long so Break Frees are a bigger issue, and because teams tend to be more balanced and work together better than in zones.


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The tough part is if you die one time, you lost domination, the pet, and any long recharge powers still arent recharged. I find dying once leads to many deaths if Im not careful.

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Don't get me wrong, I love my Dominator. The sheer insanity of taking a low damage/low HP character into melee range - and surviving - is incredibly fun, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of watching Total Focus go off. I just don't have any illusions about how much I contribute to a team.

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You may be being a little harsh on your self too. Now, I think considering the AOE nature of debuffs and the ST nature of holds, then naturally in LRSF doms are much less than another corruptor, but in most missions the presence of a dom allows a corruptor to do a lot more fighting in place of healing and debuffing, as well as bringing decent damage.

I think the places doms have real trouble are where fixes to remove holds have been shoehorned in (Avs having triangles and BFs for PVP). So, to me, IMO, doms need a boost in those two situations, vs triangles and in PVP. This change seems to be a PVP boost, not really a team boost.

I hope the next boost will make doms better in teams. As I soon will be 45+ and can participate in a Lord Recluse SF, I would like to be able to contribute as much or more than another AT (which I doubt without some changes).

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I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22.

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My Fire/Ice dom is level 22, and at this point I'm hardly using my melee attacks even though I only have 2 blast powers. I find that the melee attacks just slow me down.

My technique soloing is to use TP Foe to pull a mob to me, then I spam Char, Ice Bolt, and Ice Blast until the mob is dead. By the time the first mob is dead, TP Foe is up again and I tp the next one. If I get 2 of the 3, or all three, aggroed, I have to use Char to hold the others and so can't use it as part of my attack chain on the mob I'm attacking. That's the only time I use Air Superiority or Ice Sword.

This method allows me to go through a mission constantly attacking, so that I build domination fast, and yet I take almost no damage. An added benefit is that I also don't run dry on end, even though Stamina just has 1 DO in it now. (Each blast power has 1 DO end red). I can either pop Domination pretty much every time it's up, and during it's duration I can mow through a couple groups without pulling, or I can save Domination for the last room. Right now I'm still on Villainous, but think I could go to Vicious easily.

So, I don't think that melee is the only way to play. It's certainly one option, but I have found that Ice Sword just slows me down because of its end usage. Also, the animations of Ice Sword and Air Sup, while they seem pretty fast, are actually slow enough to slow down my attack chain when I use them as part of the regular chain. My chain of Char, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast has a couple of short gaps, but not enough to fit one of the melee powers in, and those gaps should go away once I get Stamina slotted out and then swap out the end red in my blasts for an SO recharge.

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I will agree that melee attacks arent the only way to go. However, if you (not 515A, but in general) think the damage is subpar, it is a good idea to consider if your build is taking enough attacks, if the attacks are being slotted at the right time, or if the attacks you are choosing are the correct ones.

I found on my dark/psi defender I had chosen too many primary powers too early, which made it extremely tough to solo him until I switched and got a few more attacks. Further, as I had slotted primary powers heavily, it made it even harder to solo than it should have been with the powers available to me.

I think damage secondaries have to be taken and slotted around 50/50 with the primary, and in some cases, as you level you may end up with more secondary powers than primary powers.

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My dominators have never been "crappy." Maybe you are just crappy as a dominator?

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Sorry to say I don't agree with this. One of my regular team mates plays doms almost exclusively and plays them well. He has ice/ice, grav/en, fire/en melee type and plant/thorns so a fair sample. He thoroughly enjoyed playing up to 40 and then found they started to suck with all the malta/carnie mezzing and end draining that turned up, and purple triangle AV/hero downgraded to EBs, even more so after 45.

If he as a devoted dominator player tells me they suck in the high level game, I'm inclined to agree with him.

I suspect some doms may hold domination back as a get out of jail, which may not improve their enjoyment but will improve their survivability a touch. A buff while dom is not up would help more, I certainly already feel uber while dom is running.

As an aside, playing mainly brutes myself I have been very disappointed with the high level (45+ particularly, but 40-45 too) game's reliance on end drain and EB/AVs with tier 9 god mode powers. Malta, carnies and longbow appear in far too high a proportion of the late game missions, and drain the fun out of play about as fast as the end for both solo doms and brutes. Plus a series of EBs you can't hold most of the time, and can't hit for several minutes at a time is not my idea of fun.

PS they missed resists to slow and placate

Lucifer's Lieutenant 50 SS/fire brute protector
and 70+ others including 7 CoH 50s and 3 other CoV 40+

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Want to address both posts (which may have been done already, as there are pages to go I havent read yet).

First, its always a little suspect to say maybe they (the player) just arent good. For one reason, they may simply be used to having more power, via having played a stronger AT, which would mean that in comparison doms need boosting. Its always hard to figure out how your favorite toon that seems to do so well is being posted as gimped and crappy by someone else, but this type reply tends to make the posts more about flames than discussion.

On the second one, I find my dom is better in the high game than possible some brutes. This is because I normally have a lot of options to stop the end drain before it starts. I usually have the AOE hold on tap as well as waterspout and domination up the sleeve just in case.

In fact, the only times I am dying now are 1) getting hit while traveling Grandville, from no where and 2) from stuns and holds while in teams. A big part of number 2 being communication and people on a team that dont tend to be careful before they agro (mainly MMs, brutes occasionally, and me on a real bad night).

On the other hand, domination more than ever would be my ace in the hole, and wil not be used as it comes available if its also a portable mez protection. Thats too valuable when the chips are down to give up to beat 4 minions a little faster earlier in the mission.

Last, I am level 44. It may get much worse after 45, but I havent seen Eliz Specter (lev 50) say anything disappointing about doms above 45, and in fact I over heard a night or two ago she was raising a secondary dom up.

Experieneces may vary, but my dom is much tougher than my tank versus end drain.

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I think this change makes Domination truely unique. Dominator (for brief periods of time) are truely the masters of Domination.

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I'm pretty sure it is unique. Are there any other powers in the game (besides insps of course) that can break an existing hold or stun on yourself?

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a 5o infamy inspiration can.

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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?

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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.

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Not in time to reach...holy cow, this is like being released like today or something?

Nice. Thanks for the clarification Castle. Sounds real interesting, cant wait to see how it runs.

All we need now is to add an extremely high regen buff to domination and we'll be ready .

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I'd *much* rather have Support for a secondary than Assault. I think Doms would give their left mouse button for Dark Miasma or Thermal Radiation as a secondary long, long before a Controller would ever ask for any Assault set instead.

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The reason for this is that controllers essentially already HAVE an assault secondary. When holds work (99% of PVE), trollers do as much damage or more than dominators. This isnt a fair comparison, because trollers are like dominators with buffs/debuffs/heals, what not to like?

Controller damage is slightly reduced by not having the number of attacks to complete a good attack chain, but if you build in pool attacks (air superiority, box, etc), you can get a decent attack chain, that does great damage once containment sets in (doubling you enhanced damage makes even brawl look pretty decent, not to mention triple in PVP).

This is the problem with comparing doms and trollers, trollers didnt originally have any real damage, making people want what became dominators. However, in the meantime, controllers gained real good damage in addition to the uber team assist powers in control and buff/debuffs/heals.

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So, you're saying the Devs have made a huge oversight when designing Containment for Controllers?

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Yes. I think so. I think controllers as originally built were balanced, but not real fun (very slow and weak, couldnt solo pre-pet to uber devastation after pet). The high level uberness balanced the low level wimpiness. Lack of defense/resists/offense was balanced via lack of threat (ie perma -AOE holds).

Then, for game play, aoe holds had to be nuked (ie. city of statues), as well as a way out of a hold for toons without mez protection (BFs) and AV fights needed more challenge (triangles). As a balancer for these changes that mainly hurt controllers, they were given damage that hinged on holds. And this means their AT can now solo at low levels, and cant hold as good as they used to, but are still great on teams.

The problem is, containment basically gave trollers a damage secondary. Do they do more damage than a dominator? Hard to say, but its close enough I've never seen a decent analysis prove they dont, and some appear to do more. If its even close, doms lose out, because we dont have buff/debuff/heal. So, they have more use from their primary (longer holds), lots of use from secondary (buff/debuff/heals), and do as much damage as we do with our secondary. Hard for me to see that as balanced.


However, I will go ahead and say the troller changes were for the better. IMO, they were pitiful below level 32 before containment. So, to me, the fix should focus on doms, not controllers.

I think Bekkar said what I think better than I did. Controllers were borked, now really good, but what about doms?

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I'd *much* rather have Support for a secondary than Assault. I think Doms would give their left mouse button for Dark Miasma or Thermal Radiation as a secondary long, long before a Controller would ever ask for any Assault set instead.

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The reason for this is that controllers essentially already HAVE an assault secondary. When holds work (99% of PVE), trollers do as much damage or more than dominators. This isnt a fair comparison, because trollers are like dominators with buffs/debuffs/heals, what not to like?

Controller damage is slightly reduced by not having the number of attacks to complete a good attack chain, but if you build in pool attacks (air superiority, box, etc), you can get a decent attack chain, that does great damage once containment sets in (doubling you enhanced damage makes even brawl look pretty decent, not to mention triple in PVP).

This is the problem with comparing doms and trollers, trollers didnt originally have any real damage, making people want what became dominators. However, in the meantime, controllers gained real good damage in addition to the uber team assist powers in control and buff/debuffs/heals.