Enhancement Proc Changes

[Synapse]

Hi All,

I wanted to reach out to you all to let you know that we're aware of your concerns regarding procs per minute versus IO static proc chances. In some situations the procs per minutes on store bought enhancements (SBEs) are superior to those in IOs. I've read through your feedback and understand your concerns. We have a course of action we'd like to take for Issue 24. The changes we're going with are:

1) All IO procs will have their flat percentage chance to trigger updated to use Procs Per Minute.
2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc.
3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered.
4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased.

The goals of this change would be to create a strong level of parity between IOs and Store Bought Enhancements (in fact they'll be identical proc wise) and reduce the impact that the initial implementation of the PPM mechanic had on gameplay. Your feedback is very important to us so I wanted to see how the community feels about these potential changes.

I think it's important to stress that the overall impact to gameplay this will have on existing PPM enhancements will be small. That said players will notice a small performance hit at very high levels of recharge. The balancing point for the increased procs per minute rates will be based upon a reasonable level of recharge. That amount will likely change through beta testing. You'll all have a chance to play test this on the beta servers in the not so distant future.

Best Regards,
Phil "Synapse" Zeleski

[Lohenien]

How do PPM procs work in aoe powers? Do they only have a chance to fire on one target in the time window? If so wouldn't this be a colossal nerf to procs ?

[Agent White]

Leveling the playing field is quite fine with me.

[Darth_Khasei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent White Leveling the playing field is quite fine with me.

Me too, still can't understand how this was not the solution in the first place.

[Katie V]

I'm worried that this change will be a major nerf to some popular slottings: Proctrops (Caltrops slotted with a large number of procs -- how is the PPM rate calculated for a long-duration damage patch?), Force Feedback +recharge in Footstomp or Energy Blast, the pet buildup proc in Assault Bot, and the Achilles' Heel proc in AoE defense debuffs.

[Draeth Darkstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synapse 1) All IO procs will have their flat percentage chance to trigger updated to use Procs Per Minute.

Awesome.

Quote:

2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc.

I can't say I like this - I thought it was an interesting feature that, in especially long recharge+activation powers, you could turn a proc into a reliable component of an ability. Making them more random just for the sake of it isn't really good direction, in my opinion, especially at a 90% cap - then it just feels like a penalty from player perspective when it doesn't occur, rather than a bonus when it does.

Conversely, I do think there should be a floor to the chance to proc in any given power of no less than the current flat rate of each proc (so no matter how short a recharge+activation time, say, a melee attack has, Touch of Death would never fall below a 15% proc chance, for example).

Quote:

3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered. 4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased.

This is a bad idea.

Recharge buffs will become a penalty as soon as you go down this road. We will have to built to a specific "cap" of recharge rate for any given build, very carefully not exceeding the optimum value for our attack chains. Speed Boosting a character who is already at their optimum attack chain will decrease their performance. Performance in a League will be HUGELY impacted when you can get tagged with multiple SBs, Chronishifts, Accelerate Metabolisms, et cetera.

[Agent White]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei Me too, still can't understand how this was not the solution in the first place.

Hindsight is 20/20.

[Roderick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synapse 3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered. 4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased.

This is a MASSIVE nerf to the Stalker ATO proc, especially since the 100% proc rate in Assassin Strike was stated to be working as intended.

Slotting the full set in Assassin Strike (At level 50, counting the recharge from the set and the +Recharge set bonus, but no other sources of recharge) gives a 48% proc rate for the regular and 59% for the purple versions.
Proc rate being calculated off the actual recharge means high-recharge builds are penalized even worse: A stalker with the full purple set slotted in AS and 100% global recharge (for example: Purple set bonus, Quickness from SR and Hasten active) will have a 41.6% proc rate. Sufficient recharge for perma-hasten drops it to less than 33%

Even if the proc rate were doubled, a Stalker would only ever hit the 90% proc rate cap if they had virtually no +recharge bonuses.

[Darth_Khasei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent White Hindsight is 20/20.

Not really sure if hindsight is involved when changing the mechanic on only one version of the procs never made any sense from inception.

[KatanaFury]

It makes sense. Having Procs Per Minute work on the base recharge rather than the actual recharge value being used never made much sense to me. I guess it all depends on how much the PPM values are going to be upped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar I can't say I like this - I thought it was an interesting feature that, in especially long recharge+activation powers, you could turn a proc into a reliable component of an ability. Making them more random just for the sake of it isn't really good direction, in my opinion, especially at a 90% cap - then it just feels like a penalty from player perspective when it doesn't occur, rather than a bonus when it does. Conversely, I do think there should be a floor to the chance to proc in any given power of no less than the current flat rate of each proc (so no matter how short a recharge+activation time, say, a melee attack has, Touch of Death would never fall below a 15% proc chance, for example).

Agreed 100%.

The first thing I thought of when I read the changes was how this would change the Stalker ATO Proc, which was stated to be WAI going off 100% in Assassin Strike. I don't think that should change.

[Alien51]

1, 3 & 4 are fine by me but I don't like #2.

There is already a penalty for using the procs on long recharge powers because a 100% proc still fires less often for longer recharge. We don't need 90% cap added to that.

[MisterD]

I really like these changes. I was on the point of posting a thread about how broken some of the SB ones are in pvp zones.
Glad to see you posting this..but..PLEASE please consider doing more than just tucking it away in the forums? Seriously..not everyone reads this, or even the patch notes. If there is not something like a pop up when you log in, with a quick run down of how all procs are being tweaked..

[Draeth Darkstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alien51 1, 3 & 4 are fine by me but I don't like #2. There is already a penalty for using the procs on long recharge powers because a 100% proc still fires less often for longer recharge. We don't need 90% cap added to that.

3 is the one that's a real problem for me. I cannot emphasize enough how bad I feel it will be for the health of the game if there is suddenly a downside to having "too much Recharge," especially when, in group play, you can get FLOODED with Recharge buffs. It's not unusual for me to see my recharge rate hit the hard cap in League play doing iTrials.

[__Tru__]

Yay!

...followed by hmmmm.

[UberGuy]

I am pleased by this in general, but concerned about some of the specifics.

In particular, in order to make the Performance Shifter PPM proc have sensible performance in powers like Stamina or Quick Recovery, you had to give it a quite low PPM rate. While I have no issue with its adjusted performance in Stamina, it would be extremely poor in click powers.

Please consider this in the new design - clicks and auto/toggle powers may need different behavior. Otherwise, you're going to have a terrible time balancing things like the Ragnarok damage proc between slotting in click attacks or in something like a damage aura.

[Dogma]

Dont like it one bit.... PPMs should be discarded altogether. my perf shifters, numinas, regen tissues, and miracles will be severely adversely effected and my planning for proc-ing in AoEs is tough already... this will just make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Let me repeat: PPM is a horrible idea and should be discarded entirely.

Caveat: I'm willing to admit I don't understand the whole thing, please inform me if I'm missing details.

[Caulderone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synapse 3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered.

I agree with these changes in principle. Leveling the playing field with SBEs makes sense.

However, this worries me a small bit. My main uses Dark Melee. Shadow Punch is slotted with Hecatomb Proc (normal, not SB). I have SP down around 1.08 seconds recharge time currently (from base 3).

SP is literally every other attack for me, and Heca's Proc makes for some excellent damage add here.

The possibility of a massive nerf to this functionality is a very real worry for me. This is a concept/theme build I am very happy with (my main) and having his damage gutted would not make me happy.

(PS. He's a Tank, so it isn't like he's doing uber pylon-soloing damage as is.)


In addition to the 90% chance Cap, there should also be a minimum chance Floor at the existing proc rate.

[Caulderone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberGuy Please consider this in the new design - clicks and auto/toggle powers may need different behavior. Otherwise, you're going to have a terrible time balancing things like the Ragnarok damage proc between slotting in click attacks or in something like a damage aura.

Oh yeah, in addition to my post above, this too!

[Kyriani]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synapse Hi All, I wanted to reach out to you all to let you know that we're aware of your concerns regarding procs per minute versus IO static proc chances. In some situations the procs per minutes on store bought enhancements (SBEs) are superior to those in IOs. I've read through your feedback and understand your concerns. We have a course of action we'd like to take for Issue 24. The changes we're going with are: 1) All IO procs will have their flat percentage chance to trigger updated to use Procs Per Minute. 2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc. 3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered. 4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased. The goals of this change would be to create a strong level of parity between IOs and Store Bought Enhancements (in fact they'll be identical proc wise) and reduce the impact that the initial implementation of the PPM mechanic had on gameplay. Your feedback is very important to us so I wanted to see how the community feels about these potential changes. I think it's important to stress that the overall impact to gameplay this will have on existing PPM enhancements will be small. That said players will notice a small performance hit at very high levels of recharge. The balancing point for the increased procs per minute rates will be based upon a reasonable level of recharge. That amount will likely change through beta testing. You'll all have a chance to play test this on the beta servers in the not so distant future. Best Regards, Phil "Synapse" Zeleski

So by dramatically changing these products we've paid for you've basically executed a bait and switch.

I know the EULA says gameplay may change etc... but come on! People bought procs precisely because of how they worked and now you're basically taking a product they bought and breaking it.

I'm sorry but that just doesn't fall under your "right to change the game". Not when people like me have spent dollars specifically for something that works a certain way.

If this goes live I'll send petition after petition to have the procs I bought returned and my points refunded and I will continue to do so until I am reimbursed for the fraud you are trying to commit. And fraud it is. In fact I think I'll start sending petitions now because I will not be taken advantage of in this manner.

You cannot sell me a product that functions one way and then "firmware" it into something else entirely. You cannot justify it as "broken" because then you're admitting you sold me a faulty product.

I'm not saying you can't make the change but I'll be damned if you can get away with denying me a refund on a product I paid for that you broke.

[MisterD]

Oh..good point! How does this work on numi/miacles in Health? Do they suddenly change? Or because they last 120 secs, will we see next to know difference, since they will be checking every 10 secs anyway?

[Zombie Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma Dont like it one bit.... PPMs should be discarded altogether. my perf shifters, numinas, regen tissues, and miracles will be severely adversely effected and my planning for proc-ing in AoEs is tough already... this will just make it way more complicated than it needs to be. Let me repeat: PPM is a horrible idea and should be discarded entirely. Caveat: I'm willing to admit I don't understand the whole thing, please inform me if I'm missing details.

Old style procs are horrible for long charging single target click powers. People got used to that, but, if we had started with PPM procs and went to old-style procs, people with long charging ST click powers would be **HOWLING** mad.

PPMs were to address problems inherent in legacy procs. They were unfortunately released to Live before their time. And some of the new ones are overpowered and people paid money for that overpoweredness. And so....

doom

[UberGuy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyriani So by dramatically changing these products we've paid for you've basically executed a bait and switch.

While I am not going to disagree with the general premise of your post, I really wish people would stop calling this sort of thing "bait and switch". This is not that. B&S is when someone advertises something they never intend to sell. They bait you in with the bogus item, and then try to get you to buy something different and typically more expensive.

What PS is doing is not fraud. You may not like it, but it is not fraud.

[Dogma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Man Old style procs are horrible for long charging single target click powers. People got used to that, but, if we had started with PPM procs and went to old-style procs, people with long charging ST click powers would be **HOWLING** mad. PPMs were to address problems inherent in legacy procs. They were unfortunately released to Live before their time. And some of the new ones are overpowered and people paid money for that overpoweredness. And so.... doom

So this makes an improvement to procs in long recharge single target powers... and hurts EVERYTHING else... that sounds like a bad tradeoff to me.

EDIT: I'm not considering store bought enhancements because they don't exist to me. If you bought them from the store, buyer beware I guess.

[Kyriani]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberGuy While I am not going to disagree with the general premise of your post, I really wish people would stop calling this sort of thing "bait and switch". This is not that. B&S is when someone advertises something they never intend to sell. They bait you in with the bogus item, and then try to get you to buy something different and typically more expensive. What PS is doing is not fraud. You may not like it, but it is not fraud.

It certainly feels like a bait and switch... get us to buy something by having it temporarily be something we want and then change it into something we would never have paid for. If bait and switch isn't the right term please feel free to point me to the term that adequately expresses what is going on here.

And as for fraud... it certainly feels like I've been defrauded

defraud [dɪˈfrɔːd]
vb
(Law) (tr) to take away or withhold money, rights, property, etc., from (a person) by fraud; cheat; swindle

I've been sold a tonic that worked for a few days but then stops working once the vendor has gotten my money.

I don't deny them the right to change things. I do however take issue with being denied my right to return said product for a refund.

If a refund is simply not doable then grandfather existing SBE Procs and sell only the "new and *sarcasm* improved" SBE Procs in the store from here on out. If this happens without customer recourse it's a crime.

If they refuse to refund me my points I'll simply stop my subscription until the point total + what I lose from my VIP bonus missing months as a subscriber (which I think should be able 4 months to break even). My vet status is enough that I won't miss much if anything and I'll deny them my patronage and dollars. If I can't make them see reason one way I'll show my displeasure by speaking with my wallet. If I cant get my refund in one fashion I'll simply TAKE IT in another.

[UberGuy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma If you bought them from the store, buyer beware I guess.

Everyone should always apply this principle to anything bought in any MMO. For better or worse, the "experience subject to change" that's typical of on-line games of all sorts always applies to everything in the game, whether you paid extra for it or not.